Mesmer overhaul

[Xaylin.1860]

41 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Remove the evade from mirage cloak, so it's only function is to proc ambush.

If infinite horizon is a problem then adjust the ambush skill damage on the player or clones.

That's all they needed to do.

Dodge should have never been removed, it was an extremely lazy fix.

Nope, it is not enough.

 

Actually, imho, Ambushes probably should not be on Dodge (or at least not mainly accessed through Dodges) but that would still leave Mirrors and the disconnected baseline Shatters. Mirage Cloak/Distortion on Dodge itself hardly was a real problem outside of WvW (Endurance reg) even though I can see why it is annoying to fight against.

 

And yeah, IH is an issue. Not as bad as CS or CP but pretty bad nonetheless.

[XenesisII.1540]

10 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Nope, it is not enough.

 

Actually, imho, Ambushes probably should not be on Dodge (or at least not mainly accessed through Dodges) but that would still leave Mirrors and the disconnected baseline Shatters. Mirage Cloak/Distortion on Dodge itself hardly was a real problem outside of WvW (Endurance reg) even though I can see why it is annoying to fight against.

 

And yeah, IH is an issue. Not as bad as CS or CP but pretty bad nonetheless.

 

Not enough? well we might as well just delete the spec.

 

[Axl.8924]

On 7/28/2021 at 12:10 PM, Jables.4659 said:

The answers here don't really fit with my overall belief, but "needs to be buffed" is closer than anything.  There are definitely things that need an overhaul.  The gimmicks on both Chronomancer and Mirage are not conducive to a balanced game.  Anet has chosen to handle this by giving them each an extremely harsh penalty that has put them both in the F-tier.  Chronomancer was doomed from the beginning and I don't see a clean solution.  Without continnum split, its just Core Mesmer with a kitten traitline and bad support skills.  Mirage could be fixed fairly easily.  My wish there is that they restore its second dodge and then remove Mirage Cloak entirely.  Ambush skills would still be usable after a normal dodge.  Apart from that, all that would need to change is infinite horizon.  Two-Dodge-Mirage with Infinite Horizon will never be acceptable in pvp modes.  The functionality of that trait would need to be changed in spvp and wvw.  As far as Core Mesmer is concerned, it just needs mobility and a few specific tweaks.  I would give it mobility by turning sword 3 into either a ground targetable teleport that immobilizes foes at the location or an actual leap like the mirage sword ambush that immobilizes foes struck.  I would also completely replace the greatsword 3 skill with a leap similar to the ranger greatsword leap.  Those two changes would vastly improve Mesmer's situation.  Obviously they need to fix Arcane Thievery, but I feel like I'm beating a dead horse on that one.  Other than that, its just trait cleanup that a lot of classes need.

 

Isn't there a way to make chrono work without continuum split? Can't anet do anything?

Can't they move support elsewhere?

 

And if a ability is needed can't it be replaced by something less problematic?

Edited July 30, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

1 hour ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Isn't there a way to make chrono work without continuum split? Can't anet do anything?

Can't they move support elsewhere?

 

And if a ability is needed can't it be replaced by something less problematic?

 

The problem is not just a matter of the spec working or not. It's identity.

 

You could remove CS just fine and put good ol' distortion in there, but then the spec would basically be mesmer with a shield. Anet pidgeonholed themselves into putting all the identity and flavour of the spec into this one skill. It's entirely possible to get out of this situation but that'd require a thorough rework to chrono, which anet just isn't willing to do at the moment.

[AXLIB.8425]

1 hour ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Isn't there a way to make chrono work without continuum split? Can't anet do anything?

Can't they move support elsewhere?

 

And if a ability is needed can't it be replaced by something less problematic?

where can they move support to tho? mirage again? and even if they move butchered support of chrono to mirage then what even is the functionality of chrono at this point? we are already getting a spec that is just a power spec that offer nothing else which is just going to replace power chrono.

[Xaylin.1860]

2 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

Not enough? well we might as well just delete the spec.

 

You misunderstood me.

 

Removing Mirage Cloak on Dodge won't fix Mirage. More has to be done. I'm not talking about nerfing it.

[Moradorin.6217]

13 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Nope, it is not enough.

 

Actually, imho, Ambushes probably should not be on Dodge (or at least not mainly accessed through Dodges) but that would still leave Mirrors and the disconnected baseline Shatters. Mirage Cloak/Distortion on Dodge itself hardly was a real problem outside of WvW (Endurance reg) even though I can see why it is annoying to fight against.

 

And yeah, IH is an issue. Not as bad as CS or CP but pretty bad nonetheless.

I think removing IH sounds good, but then ambush damage would end up needing to be adjusted/tweaked since it would now have a single source, unless IH behavior was changed. Perhaps IH should boost Ambush damage based on how many clones are persisting and give clones the evade frame, but no longer allow the Mirage to ambush players outside its own hit range via clone ambush and no more getting hit by so many sources of condi application etc if the ambush is coming only from the player.

 

IH would need a replacement too. You cannot propose to remove a GM trait without a replacement.

 

I think the best solution was always to adjust how ambush damage and the way in which IH can mutiply the damage. To remove MC and IH just makes Mirage core mesmer w kitten Mirrors that cause a boost in damage when you stand in them which doesnt sound very good considering the Mirror mechanic itself isnt typically very popular.

 

I think everyone who likes Mirage liked it for MC and for the ambush attacks. When Phant behavior and clone/shatter behavior got changed it made it easier to generate 3 clones on demand and removed any skill related to using phants which IIRC just made mirage feel more repressive than before. People still complained about too many clones, etc cause of the ones that had poped still being visible causing people to think Mirage has like 5+ clones. etc. etc. Then torch nerfs, scepter, staff, and a few axe nerfs, utility nerfs, etc etc to try and balance Mirage and Chrono left Core Mesmer pretty weakened. Now we have one dodge on Mirage, Chrono lost Distortion to keep its CS, etc.

 

We all know various aspects of many elites not just mesmer have issues with balance, but I really feel like Mesmer takes the cake on how kittened up its become. Granted, its playable in some sense in any mode but its far from what I would call strong outside a few niche areas in which it can still almost shine like on Largos, but those are few and far between things. I think Mesmer really leaves the average player very little to work with compared to many other classes at this point.

[Axl.8924]

I plan to ask for POF for my birthday so if i get i plan to test out mirage.

[Xaylin.1860]

16 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

[...]

 

IH would need a replacement too. You cannot propose to remove a GM trait without a replacement.

 

I think the best solution was always to adjust how ambush damage and the way in which IH can mutiply the damage. To remove MC and IH just makes Mirage core mesmer w kitten Mirrors that cause a boost in damage when you stand in them which doesnt sound very good considering the Mirror mechanic itself isnt typically very popular.

 

I think everyone who likes Mirage liked it for MC and for the ambush attacks. When Phant behavior and clone/shatter behavior got changed it made it easier to generate 3 clones on demand and removed any skill related to using phants which IIRC just made mirage feel more repressive than before. People still complained about too many clones, etc cause of the ones that had poped still being visible causing people to think Mirage has like 5+ clones. etc. etc. Then torch nerfs, scepter, staff, and a few axe nerfs, utility nerfs, etc etc to try and balance Mirage and Chrono left Core Mesmer pretty weakened. Now we have one dodge on Mirage, Chrono lost Distortion to keep its CS, etc.

 

[...]

First, imho, losing more than 1s Distorion on Chronomancer is perfectly fine. CS is unbelievably powerful.

 

Second, I do agree with your points regarding Mirage. I thought I posted the stuff here, but I guess it was the Shatter-Thread where I reposted some ideas and thoughts I had some time ago.

 

I'll try to sum up my assumptions for the suggestion I made back then. ANet reworked Illusions to encourage Mesmers to actively use them, even when in a Phantasm-heavy build (e.g. Chrono). Designwise, this should also hold true for Mirage even if it is Clone-heavy. I do love IH conceptually, but this is why the current iteration doesn't work to well with the base class. Not linking Ambushes to Shatters makes it even worse. My idea back is this (copy and paste):

 

Enchantments

Enchantments replace baseline Shatters. When activated, Clones perform an attack at your current target (s. Ambushes and Infinite Horizon) and then dissipate. Their damaging component is reduced and the debilitating effects increased. The Mesmer gains an 1s window per shattered Illusion for his Ambush-attack. His attack is enchanted with additional effects based on which Shatter is used (e.g. F1 = area damage around your target etc.). F4 grants 1s of Distortion and turns your Illusions into Mirage Mirrors. (Note, I also wrote, that I'd remove Mirage Cloak for Distortion).

 

This way, the following would happen:

• Damage would be shifted towards the Mirage
• We would still have IH-attacks with Clones and re-targeting on Mirage
• We still would have Mirage Mirrors
• We could still somewhat have Mirage Cloak on Dodge, but it would be Distortion
• Mirages would actually want to use their Shatters

 

Now, of course, this would also require a rework of certain traits and Utility skills to accomodate those changes. And, of course, it would require some numbers crunching and tuning. But it does make way more sense than the current set up. And regarding Mirage Cloak: It's basically Distortion with a different name and effect. I mean... why ANet? You even want Distortion to interact with Mirage. Why not the whole way?

Edited July 31, 2021 by Xaylin.1860