What will be the Counter to Virtuoso ?

[mortrialus.3062]

On 8/8/2021 at 3:34 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Still feel slow.

 

Right now, the average mesmer build 3 clones which already take a bit of time usually, the virtuoso will build 5 blades which will take a lot more time. The weapon (dagger) they presented was building what, 1 blade every 5-6 seconds? I think this is were the main weakness of the spec lie, but at the same time maybe it might make scepter popular.

 

Also, one have to consider the misdirection loss from the lack of clones, foes won't need to be as focused when facing a virtuoso than they need to be when facing a mesmer. It cut a lot of the advantage of the tools to disengage.

 

I might be wrong but I don't feel like the virtuoso will excel at sPvP. I think it more likely for him to shine as a dps in WvW zergs (Which isn't a bad thing at all).

Not really?  Power mesmer has always used mirror blade at point blank range to get as many points of damage from it bouncing and then at the same time Mind Wracking as soon as the one clone is spawned, all zeroed in on one single target.  You don't play around with actually trying to set up a 3 clone shatter on power.   It's just not a valuable use of your cooldowns with how  Mind Wrack works (With more clones the total damage of a mind wrack goes up, but it's spread evenly across yourself and clones creating more opportunity for clones to fail and completely negate all value of making three clones and in fact result in less damage).  If you Mind Wrack point blank with one clone, it will hit significantly harder, almost 2x harder, than if you mind wrack at 900 range and one clone dies and only two clones hit the target even though it's a "three clone shatter".

 

Condition hasn't been particularly shatter focused since the Blinding Dissipation nerf.  It's been more focused on phantasm summons and clone auto attacks for like years now. 

 

While projectiles have their clear counter play, not having to use clones gives a lot of benefits;

 

1. You ammunition can't be accidentally cleaved down by enemies before they reach the target.

2.  Your attacks do not rely on NPC pathing and run speed to reach their target.  Bladesongs travel way faster than clones and will hit their target fairly reliably even at far range.

3.  Your shatters piece. 

4.  You no longer need to shot gun your shatters at point blank range to gain maximum value. 

 

I don't think Virtuoso will be supremely powerful or meta in SPvP, but I think it'll be a niche choice like Fresh Air weaver was at the very start of Path of Fire where a handful of players could make it look absolutely broken, provided Virtuoso's damage numbers are in a good spot.

[Dadnir.5038]

5 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Not really?  Power mesmer has always used mirror blade at point blank range to get as many points of damage from it bouncing and then at the same time Mind Wracking as soon as the one clone is spawned, all zeroed in on one single target.  You don't play around with actually trying to set up a 3 clone shatter on power.   It's just not a valuable use of your cooldowns with how  Mind Wrack works (With more clones the total damage of a mind wrack goes up, but it's spread evenly across yourself and clones creating more opportunity for clones to fail and completely negate all value of making three clones and in fact result in less damage).  If you Mind Wrack point blank with one clone, it will hit significantly harder, almost 2x harder, than if you mind wrack at 900 range and one clone dies and only two clones hit the target even though it's a "three clone shatter".

 

Condition hasn't been particularly shatter focused since the Blinding Dissipation nerf.  It's been more focused on phantasm summons and clone auto attacks for like years now. 

 

While projectiles have their clear counter play, not having to use clones gives a lot of benefits;

 

1. You ammunition can't be accidentally cleaved down by enemies before they reach the target.

2.  Your attacks do not rely on NPC pathing and run speed to reach their target.  Bladesongs travel way faster than clones and will hit their target fairly reliably even at far range.

3.  Your shatters piece. 

4.  You no longer need to shot gun your shatters at point blank range to gain maximum value. 

 

I don't think Virtuoso will be supremely powerful or meta in SPvP, but I think it'll be a niche choice like Fresh Air weaver was at the very start of Path of Fire where a handful of players could make it look absolutely broken, provided Virtuoso's damage numbers are in a good spot.

Virtuoso:

Pros:

- Have a focus on long range (which does not synergize well with GS).

- Do not have clone for misdirection.

- Don't seem to have illusionary persona (see focus on long range).

- Do not have new movement skills.

- Have to build 5 dagger instead of 3 clones.

 

Cons:

- 1200 range on all it's skills.

- Huge skill radius.

 

All of this make your gameplay slower.

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

4 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Virtuoso:

Cons:

- Have to build 5 dagger instead of 3 clones.

 

Again, no one playing power actually builds to 3 clones. 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:08 PM, Naqam a.6521 said:

If for example the damage of the Virtuoso stays the same as the presentation , and can easily kill the Necros , does the current form of Shiro Rev and Daredevil can beat it ?

Will it be a successful  Rock/Paper/Scissor scenario  ?

> no stealth, blocks or blinds
> no instacast shatters; f3 and f4 won't be able to defend you anymore
> mobility of a rock
> one condi cleanse every 20 seconds
> every skill is telegraphed 3 years in advance

I can guarantee you everyone will be able to manage that.
If for some reason you are having any kind of trouble, a daredevil will make mincemeat of any virtuoso.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Vague Memory.2817]

Well history repeats itself, so all other professions complain about the new mesmer elite spec and then devs nerf it into the ground. That seems to work as a counter.