Conditions; If you really want meaningful changes: — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Conditions; If you really want meaningful changes:

Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭

I'm tired of hearing all these suggested changes from misguided players who got boogered by some condi build, so they decide to come here and ask that "Weakness should reduce condi damage" or "toughness should reduce condi damage" or "rework the entire condi mechanic and make every player relearn how to play this game".

You want more ability to resist conditions. OK. Here's my suggestion, and here's how you would do it correctly.

Make another item slot in PvP similar to amulet, but here's what this slot does:

it allows you to choose a resistance to a specific type of damage. Lets say they open up a "ring slot" in SPvP. Here's examples of how this would work:

Ring EX 1: Reduce the duration of Cripple, Chill, and Immob by 25%.
Ring EX 2: Reduce the duration of damaging conditions by 25%.
Ring EX 3: Reduce the damage of incoming conditions by 25%.
Ring EX 4: Reduce your chance to be critically hit by 15%.
Ring EX 5: Reduce the duration of daze/stun effects against you by 33%.
Ring EX 6: Increase the duration of Boon effects on yourself by 20%.
Ring EX 7: Increase the healing done to your character by 15%.

this would allow you to further tweak a build to push a certain resistance. for example, if you're a thief, probably want to reduce condition damage taken. If you want this slot to be more unique, it could look like this:

Ring EX 1: Cripple cannot reduce you below 100% movement speed. (but will reduce you from 125% to 100% if you have a move speed buff for example)
Ring EX 2: Chill no longer slows your movement speed.
Ring EX 3: Chill no longer slows the cooldown of your abilities.
Ring EX 4: Poison no longer reduces your healing taken.
Ring EX 5: You now ignore damaging conditions if they have less than two applications. (1-2 burns deal 0 damage, but full damage on 3+)
Ring EX 6: You now ignore the first stack of damaging conditions (1 burn deals 0 damage, 2 burns deal the damage of 1 burn, 3 burns deal the damage of 2 burns..)
Ring EX 7: Burn effects now deal 33% less damage to you.
Ring EX 8: Bleed effects last 50% of their normal duration against you.

also, it could be a give and take mechanic, which would look like this:

Ring EX 1: Increases your movement speed by 25%, but Cripple and Chill have increased effects (reducing your speed as if you had 100% movement speed)
Ring EX 2: Poison no longer reduces your healing taken, but deals 15% increased damage to you.
Ring EX 3: Burn effects now deal 33% less damage to you, but duration of burns on you are increased by 33% (so, the same damage, but spread over a longer duration)
Ring EX 3: Damaging conditions deal 20% less damage to you, but your movement speed is slowed when you have more than 4 applications of a single damaging condition.
Ring EX 4: You take 25% less damage from critical hits, but deal 33% less damage with critical hits (making your criticals deal 100% damage if you have no ferocity, basically removing the crit mechanic unless you have ferocity)
Ring EX 5: You are immune to Weakness, but your power damage is reduced by 10%.
Ring EX 6: You are immune to Chill, but your movement speed is reduced to 90%, (so with swiftness, your movement speed would be capped at 123%, instead of 133%).
Ring EX 7: Your attacks still land with Blind, but Blind reduces your damage done by 33% while active, and is not removed until the duration wears off. (or is cleansed)
Ring EX 8: Attacks against you deal damage as if the target has 8 Might. (so if they have more than 8 Might, its a damage reduction, but if less than 8 might, a damage increase)

these are just examples obviously, but it would add additional ways to "counter meta" without huge sweeping mechanic changes to the game. in addition, it would actually allow you to spec into reducing a specific type of damage, whether it be power or condition, or reduce the effects of certain conditions.

Comments

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mean a lot of these are versions of existing rune effects and some are worthy of being traits.

    I don't think there is a need for a system like this either when the latter mentioned two things already cover most of what this is trying to achieve.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I mean a lot of these are versions of existing rune effects and some are worthy of being traits.

    I don't think there is a need for a system like this either when the latter mentioned two things already cover most of what this is trying to achieve.

    I'm actually on the side of the aisle that has suggested making it so that Toughness reduces incoming Condition Damage, on a lower scaling effectiveness than it reduces Power Damage. However I actually rather like this idea, sPvP is very stringent, strict, and inherently restrictive in how builds are constructed. I mean look at how difficult it has been for them to actually try to achieve a healthy level of diversity in the mode. This is the result of numerous factors; lack of stat mixing due to amulet system, removal of certain Runes and Amulets (even if justified), removal of Sigils/replacement of many with the Sigils we currently have in sPvP, complete lack of team queue so you can actually choose your own kitten team comp in normal Ranked games, even the very nature of Conquest as a mode and how it works restricts build diversity. Its why you see builds, skills, traits, or entire classes that work extremely well in Conquest that wouldn't work nearly as well in WvW, and vice versa.

    Implementing a system like this, on top of what is there, has the potential to diversify builds more and just provide a better way of customizing the way you play in any given match. GW1 functioned in a somewhat similar way, granted there was a lot more weapon swapping in GW1 but each weapon set you swapped to served a particular purpose depending on your build and how it fits into your team comp, as well as any given situation you are in during the match and what comp you are fighting against. For example, as a Warrior you would need to have multiple different shields available to use and you would need to decide if you should bring a shield with -20% cripple duration or -20% blind duration or +10 armor against each damage type. There are other examples but going into it all would make this a much longer post.

    The challenge to implementing an idea like this, however, comes from; 1) Making sure the effects are not each individually overbearing, 2) Making sure they are equally effective to avoid making only one, two or even three of them the universal "go to" effects because this is an issue with traits and even runes as is, and 3) Make choosing your actual team comp a regular part of matching in Ranked sPvP and not just an AT related thing.

    Just go look at GW1 meta comps and builds, the diversity there blows GW2 "diversity" quite literally out of the water. The only class, if I remember correctly from the last time I checked, that isn't considered "meta" as a primary class (in GvG at least) is Ritualist, but Ritualist is a heavily used secondary class; though to be fair that is primarily for Death Pact Signet as a hard res.

    So to be honest I think @Caine.8204 is actually onto something here.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    So to be honest I think @Caine.8204 is actually onto something here.

    see, and i like diversity. this has the potential to add several unique tweaks to builds, and it may even make certain unviable builds somewhat viable by taking away a certain weakness. it would make everyone "different" in their own ways.

    obviously metas would emerge eventually, but given enough choices and appropriate number balancing, they wouldnt be axed out of the meta completely, as they could counter-meta. say a power meta emerges, where a holo could stack 25 might... you could make him much less effective, and a meta might even emerge that counters holo completely, so now the "meta spec" holo is being countered by players who dont want to deal with it... pushing him down in the meta while technically being a strong build.

    it allows players not only to toughen up certain aspects of their build that are lacking, but even counter a specific type of meta that emerges. from game-to-game, you could see your effectiveness waver, and there wouldnt be a "one size fits all" build.

    actually, if they just made it so they were weapon sigils, you wouldnt even need to tweak the game to add that additional slot. they could do as you said: add a sigil that reduces incoming condition damage while you have that weapon set, or makes you immune to chill while you have your greatsword out, etc. even a movement speed sigil or something, where you have you ranged weapon you dont need it, but you whip out your melee weapon and the sigil increases your speed by 25%.

    diversity is good for mmos. this would add more diversity, and completely throw a wrench at the meta. with lack of choice, metas pop up extremely fast. with additional choices, it would take much longer for metas to emerge, and when they did, people could counter-meta and send it right back to the start, and a new meta would emerge just from player interaction.

    tl;dr diversity = constantly changing meta = balance

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I mean a lot of these are versions of existing rune effects and some are worthy of being traits.

    I don't think there is a need for a system like this either when the latter mentioned two things already cover most of what this is trying to achieve.

    Except with the rune effects, everyone just piles onto additional damage done. whichever rune does the most damage, is the one that wins.

    look at meta battle you will see what im talking about. Rune of Traveler. Rune of Lynx. Rune of Resistance. Rune of Revenant. repeat for infinity. if everyone picks movement speed, that isnt exactly diversity achieved. if everyone picks the rune that gives Resistance and lower condi duration, that isnt diversity achieved either.

    I would be more in support of a system that targets specific aspects, rather than a blanket buff or nerf to one type. the examples i listed below that specifically target Chill, Cripple, Bleed, Poison, Burn for example, whereas if your build has a real issue with burn core guardians, you could choose to counter it. If your build has low condi removal, you could add a Ring that says "Clear yourself of Bleeding effects when you have more than 5 applications" if you can never deal damage because you're getting weakness spammed on you, you can choose to reduce the effectiveness of Weakness.

    I would love a system that lets me target a certain aspect to counter. That necro tries to fear lock you? Too bad, I have a "ring" that makes it so Fear effects are inflicted upon the caster instead of myself. All it would take would be 1 fear for him to realize that he can't do that to me. They could even add the effect to the buff bar, so if an enemy player targets you, you have a buff that says "Fear Immune" or "Chill Immune" or "Critical Resistance", or "Bleed Resistant" for example. they could easily add it in the game, and give it a very obvious tell or effect, so that you know what you're going up against as soon as you target the enemy player.

    They wouldn't even have to add an additional buff slot to the game; they can use the existing one, and just make it gold or something. so "Fear Immune" would just be a gold "Fear" condition on your bar. you would know instantly that fear doesnt work on this guy.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    OP's suggestion is an excellent idea. The game plainly needs more diversity.

    Also, such diversity also allows for more counter options, which actually results in better balance overall.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    OP's suggestion is an excellent idea. The game plainly needs more diversity.

    Also, such diversity also allows for more counter options, which actually results in better balance overall.

    Diversity is definitely the goal, GW1 had plenty of it throughout its life and even now, the thing is that it will only get the game so far if they don't make some drastic improvements and changes to Ranked overall. ANets standard, and horrible, approach to those issues has been poor, and thats me putting it very nicely to how I would really like to express my distaste for it. Rather than address the very obvious problem of solo/duo only queue for Ranked in the way that they should, they completely skirt around the issue by trying to throw in these "new" systems in place to poorly bandage the problem.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Um, doesn't the rune slot do this?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Um, doesn't the rune slot do this?

    It's not really enough at this point. Builds are so wonky with Arenanet patching that perfectly viable builds will end being NOT viable because they lack some quintessential factor that is required to make the build "stable" if you would. A good example is Druid, which seriously lacks damage for the now mediocre sustain it provides.

    So if an extra earring/trinket slot could provide more options to "balance" a stat line, that would be a good thing. I think Caine's suggestions so far, is good but with those suggestions we would need to worry about OP builds becoming more OP. The way I'd imagine this off the top of my head, is for the earring/trinket slot to convert say 500 stats from a portion of the amulet, into the earring. So let's say that with the example of Druid, I could take a Mender's amulet 1000 power/500 prec/1000 heal/500 vita, and the earring/trinket could remove the 500 vita and turn it into 500 power or prec or even 500 more heal.

    Not saying this version is any better or worse than Caine's original suggestions. Just pointing out that more diversity in build options provided is a good thing, and there are many debatable ideas for what an extra earring/trinket slot could provide to help out with this, without actually power creeping the game. The idea I provided is a good example of attribute reallocation, rather than just adding more stats.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Um, doesn't the rune slot do this?

    Yeah...but since many 'misguided' people like to kitten all over forums now, complaining that this or that Rune/Class/Amulet is SO OP, and anet started to just randomly listen to that vocal minority of forums posters, we will soon have a choice of 1 amulet (celestial) and Rune of Centaur left.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 lets not kid ourselves, they would take the option that gives them dmg and keep whining about it.
    I like more diversity but tbh... it would take a lot of effort from the devs, and would be broken as one hell. and we would be stuck with kitten like crev v 2.0 where they get extra X healing. or prev that gets -50% condi duration so they no longer have a counter etc.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Depending on numbers, this could be a very good idea or an extremely bad one. Honestly I can't see anet taking that risk, they would rather ship new especs and call it a day as it affects all game modes.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Caine.8204 lets not kid ourselves, they would take the option that gives them dmg and keep whining about it.
    I like more diversity but tbh... it would take a lot of effort from the devs, and would be broken as one hell. and we would be stuck with kitten like crev v 2.0 where they get extra X healing. or prev that gets -50% condi duration so they no longer have a counter etc.

    I would prefer a system that doesn't allow you to add more damage, only resistance to a specific type. such as burn resist, fear resist, bleed resist, -15% crit to you, etc. or something like "When you are stunned, gain stability 3 seconds" with like a 60s cooldown so you cant be stun chained ONCE and die. stun chained twice sure