Little suggestion for a better experience.

In first place, I want to clear out that I am relatively new to the game and editing this thread as a personal opinion.Here is the point, I am focusing on the only class I actually like, the thief, and in particular on a Condi Build oriented gameplay. I mainly use shortbow as primary and dual dagger as melee backup. What I did notice is that an eventual sword/dagger would be kinda effective on the condi side (especially on some kind of hybrid set as rampager is) unless a little...well let's call it "mistake" on the overall skill balance, and the same for the short bow to be honest.In the d/s rotation, the basic attack, in my opinion again, should be turned as dual wield, in order to make the Deadly Ambition talent really effective (likely the dagger attack lotus strike which will applies poison in any case cuz proper of the skill itself and not due the dual wield trait), the other skills are pretty much pertinent to the condi build cuz of traits like panic strike on infiltrator strike and deadly amb. on skill n3 (both of phases). In my opinion this would grant a better characterization from the build allowing to play it at its best.On the short bow side, well... It is really good for sure, always used as main weapon and did great so far, but I would suggest something more choise based once again, after all there are ranged skills which as condi effect on the basic attack and sometimes this lacking can be really felt in the deep while in pve.This is my personal opinion, just for a change on the usual routine of condi build p/d (which I really don't like, too much boring).

To be honest, forget trying to make D/D a condi set. It's been a "Hybrid" that's sucked since launch that they won't address, because ANet thinks spamming 3 is exciting gameplay and that power D/D should always be strictly worse than the other power setups except for its AA in PvE, which has been nerfed to mediocrity. Otherwise the other options are just miles better. Dagger Training used to have a 33% chance of applying poison on dagger strikes before Deadly Ambition existed, and they removed it in favor of the measly 80 power which is a nerf from the 5% it gave before, which still, nobody ran, and further reinforced spamming 3. Most professions get 120 power on their traits, or up to 150 ferocity per, and optional bleed on crit or bleed on-hit.

D/D - and even a good chunk of DA as a traitline - is a jumbled mess with no identity and basically no synergy in any way. Play P/D and you'll do at least triple the damage with range and way better utility/escape, or opt for literally P/nothing and spam repeater because it's just better than spamming Death Blossom.

For shortbow, it's one of the primary reasons thief is usable in the PvP modes due to IArrow, so don't expect much in terms of damage gains, as then the kit would be too strong. At one point, spamming Choking Gas used to deal substantial poison stacks, but they also removed that for being too good into Guardian, ANet's definitive favorite class.

Anets done a spectacular job of destroying thief over the years tho so least they are effective at something lol. Honestly I can't believe this games pvp population is as high as it is, even though its abysmally low.

Dagger/Dagger isn't a weaker condi set because it can't apply decent conditions as it is built now. It just is less effective to be used that way because Backstab applies no conditions. It also suffers from non-condi auto attack (which it used to be able to have). On balance, Dagger/Dagger is not a condi friendly set for those basic reasons.

As an aside, technically, there is no such thing as a pure condi build. Because of the way our stats work everyone always starts with 1k power. We also have base levels of critical hit rate and critical hit damage. This means that any build should, properly, be considered as a hybrid if it boosts condition damage. Further, Might is a boon that boosts both power and condition damage stats. This means that even builds that take no condition damage will still have decent amounts of condition damage if they are based around stacking large amounts of might. Properly, you might say that Dagger/Dagger is a very power oriented hybrid melee weapon set.

Conversely, the reason P/D is more suited to condi application is 1) Sneak Attack applies bleed and (if DE) torment, 2) Vital Shot (auto attack) applies bleed, 3) Repeater is harder to avoid/kite than the other melee oriented "Dual Wield" skills (although P/D has a melee requirement initially for Repeater access so it will more consistently trigger Deadly Ambition (if using) while also applying bleed), and 4) gaining stealth means immediate access to a Sneak Attack versus needing melee range on Dagger/X.

That's not to say a more power oriented P/D or a condi oriented D/D doesn't make sense. But it does mean you need to consider whether you are getting enough out of all your weapon skills and adjust your stat spread accordingly. Just focusing on the lower condi damage ignores most of your weapon skills if we are looking at D/D for example.

To your suggestion, I don't think buffing condition application in that way would be very helpful or consistent with the power heavy orientation of the set. I think if you want to see more condition damage there are other avenues (like Heartseeker applying poison) or by just accepting the hybrid nature of the set and building with that in mind.

I'm kinda new (returning player from 2015ish), and I leveled up a new thief using the Rampager set because it's relatively cheap (exotics). So, full glass (precision, power, condition) -- Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes, and then either Shadow Arts or Trickery. Thief is the only class that I clicked with. I'm not doing dungeons or fractals or zerg wvw, so take this with a grain of salt. So, I guess the hardest pve content I do is solo champions and I try to limit wvw pvp to just me vs 1. I'm not in a guild. I don't party with anyone.

I found that p/p and p/d are the only weapon sets that are really usable due to how much more initiative efficient they are when compared to all the others, p/p is the most efficient (and you can self buff to 25 stacks of might fast, which benefits both weapon damage and condition damage) with p/d coming in 2nd place. So most initiative efficient is p/p in both weapon swaps and Trickery to keep initiative up to spam unload forever, but I prefer p/p and p/d with Shadow Arts just to keep it somewhat interesting.

The most FUN is weapon swapping between d/p and p/d due to the at-will movement options, and I actually leveled to 80 that way (after dropping d/d and never looking back). But d/p damage is... not good, and you can't just blind-tank harder pve content.

I don't like shortbow because Infiltator's Arrow uses too much initiative and the range is only 900. Just my opinion.

@Daemonjax.7813 said:I'm kinda new (returning player from 2015ish), and I leveled up a new thief using the Rampager set because it's relatively cheap (exotics). So, full glass (precision, power, condition) -- Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes, and then either Shadow Arts or Trickery. Thief is the only class that I clicked with. I'm not doing dungeons or fractals or zerg wvw, so take this with a grain of salt. So, I guess the hardest pve content I do is solo champions and I try to limit wvw pvp to just me vs 1. I'm not in a guild. I don't party with anyone.

I found that p/p and p/d are the only weapon sets that are really usable due to how much more initiative efficient they are when compared to all the others, p/p is the most efficient (and you can self buff to 25 stacks of might fast, which benefits both weapon damage and condition damage) with p/d coming in 2nd place. So most initiative efficient is p/p in both weapon swaps and Trickery to keep initiative up to spam unload forever, but I prefer p/p and p/d with Shadow Arts just to keep it somewhat interesting.

The most FUN is weapon swapping between d/p and p/d due to the at-will movement options, and I actually leveled to 80 that way (after dropping d/d and never looking back). But d/p damage is... not good, and you can't just blind-tank harder pve content.

I don't like shortbow because Infiltator's Arrow uses too much initiative and the range is only 900. Just my opinion.

I'd say Infiltrator's Arrow is best when you need to skip vertical spaces that add up to a lot more than 900. Otherwise it's a smaller bonus for sure (still useful if stealthed because 900 while running in opposite direction from opponents is pretty effective).

Main advantage P/D has over P/P is mobility, additional conditions from Dancing Dagger and melee range stealth access from CnD.

I rarely bother using P/D's CnD anymore because of the high initiative cost -- gotta stay in stealth as long as possible to recoup 2+ pips of initiative, so it just makes the fight take longer. This is probably because I'm playing hybrid condi. Sometimes I use it just for fun. You can kill stuff eventually with just CnD by chaining them -- not using sneak attack at all, and just CnD again the moment stealth runs out. Takes forever, but it's fun sometimes to time it just right.

@Daemonjax.7813 said:I rarely bother using P/D's CnD anymore because of the high initiative cost -- gotta stay in stealth as long as possible to recoup 2+ pips of initiative, so it just makes the fight take longer. This is probably because I'm playing hybrid condi. Sometimes I use it just for fun. You can kill stuff eventually with just CnD by chaining them -- not using sneak attack at all, and just CnD again the moment stealth runs out. Takes forever, but it's fun sometimes to time it just right.

It depends on your exact build and what you're doing with it (PvE or WvW or sPvP). But you can use it for stealth access for another Sneak Attack and it's generally worth it if you need to wait out a projectile block/reflect, so there are both defensive and offensive advantages.

Using CnD effectively is the hard part for X/D because of how close you need to be and how much it costs. It is a good tool but you need to manage your initiative and not miss.

@saerni.2584 said:

@Daemonjax.7813 said:I rarely bother using P/D's CnD anymore because of the high initiative cost -- gotta stay in stealth as long as possible to recoup 2+ pips of initiative, so it just makes the fight take longer. This is probably because I'm playing hybrid condi. Sometimes I use it just for fun. You can kill stuff

eventually

with just CnD by chaining them -- not using sneak attack at all, and just CnD again the moment stealth runs out. Takes forever, but it's fun sometimes to time it just right.

That's the hard part but also the convenient part in larger fights where we can't combo something to stealth and it helps that it's such a classic feeling skill that's fluid to use.

@kash.9213 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Daemonjax.7813 said:I rarely bother using P/D's CnD anymore because of the high initiative cost -- gotta stay in stealth as long as possible to recoup 2+ pips of initiative, so it just makes the fight take longer. This is probably because I'm playing hybrid condi. Sometimes I use it just for fun. You can kill stuff

eventually

with just CnD by chaining them -- not using sneak attack at all, and just CnD again the moment stealth runs out. Takes forever, but it's fun sometimes to time it just right.

I like to use it on NPCs or players I'm not primarily targeting (they rarely dodge) or objects like the supply pile in wvw (assuming it's not held by your team). Those are more likely to work well. Ranger pets, clones, or summons are a good choice if you happen to face those professions (or people using rune based summons).

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:To be honest, forget trying to make D/D a condi set.Good opinions, all of you... But can I remember that the thread was talking about S/D (and not about D/D set which is just my backup). O.o I mean, there is a lacking of "dual wield" in that laceranous strike or whatever the name of the chain is...

@Virgarth.6354 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:To be honest, forget trying to make D/D a condi set.Good opinions, all of you... But can I remember that the thread was talking about S/D (and not about D/D set which is just my backup). O.o I mean, there is a lacking of "dual wield" in that laceranous strike or whatever the name of the chain is...

Ah, I think we misunderstood based on what you wrote exactly what you were suggesting.

If there is a skill 3 on a weapon it should be triggering Deadly Ambition. When Repeater was given to P/D it also lacked being labeled a dual wield skill and didn't trigger. That was fixed after bug reports (although it did take some time).

@Virgarth.6354 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:To be honest, forget trying to make D/D a condi set.Good opinions, all of you... But can I remember that the thread was talking about S/D (and not about D/D set which is just my backup). O.o I mean, there is a lacking of "dual wield" in that laceranous strike or whatever the name of the chain is...

No offense, but if the issue is that Larcenous Strike is not considered a Dual Wield attack per Deadly Ambition, you should have specified that rather than talking about D/D or changing AA's to be dual wield skills.

S/D is not meant to be a condi loadout and has been nerfed along with Panic Strike's poison as a consequence of it having previously been a viable condi kit in the past.

Thief is strictly a power dps class. You have to understand, that if you go condi you will be suboptimal and in group content you are likely to be rejected. With that said. If you relly wanna go condi the you need to understand your strenghts and weaknesses. As a condi thief you ae best as sort of a "burst" condi. Meaning you go with d/d and spam 3 till you run out of initiative. Then your dps falls of rapidly. Also dont use carrion gear. Use Viper gear it is far better. And as for spec you should go daredevil, because you can modify your dodge to apply conditions.

@"Chrysaliss.8720" said:Thief is strictly a power dps class. You have to understand, that if you go condi you will be suboptimal and in group content you are likely to be rejected. With that said. If you relly wanna go condi the you need to understand your strenghts and weaknesses. As a condi thief you ae best as sort of a "burst" condi. Meaning you go with d/d and spam 3 till you run out of initiative. Then your dps falls of rapidly. Also dont use carrion gear. Use Viper gear it is far better. And as for spec you should go daredevil, because you can modify your dodge to apply conditions.

It's not, but if you only PvE you might think that way assuming you stick to the so-called meta and don't experiment with other damage setups.

@"Chrysaliss.8720" said:Thief is strictly a power dps class. You have to understand, that if you go condi you will be suboptimal and in group content you are likely to be rejected. With that said. If you relly wanna go condi the you need to understand your strenghts and weaknesses. As a condi thief you ae best as sort of a "burst" condi. Meaning you go with d/d and spam 3 till you run out of initiative. Then your dps falls of rapidly. Also dont use carrion gear. Use Viper gear it is far better. And as for spec you should go daredevil, because you can modify your dodge to apply conditions.

It's not.There are a few builds that outperform power builds.

• PvE P/D deadeye build with 35-39k, single target. (I think Vallun had a video on it recently?) That's quite high in the realm of DPS.
• PvE D/D can also get some very high number and can out-DPS power builds in certain circumstances, but it has a higher ramp-up time, and is not great for bosses with invulnerability phases.

You can burst condi with D/D, but it's usually not as effective as getting the rythme right so that you optimize your DPS while keeping enough initiatives for CnD, or a heartseeker to move to next groups of targets, etc.Technically whether you burn all initiatives or go with a slower rythme, there should be more or less the same DPS over a longer fight of a few minutes (given initiatives regenerate at a stable/fix rate anyways), but keeping your initiatives pool at 30-60% at all time offers much more flexibility.

Burning all your initiatives is usually a pretty bad idea, unless, of course you have a very short window to deal your damages.

Ok, so basically nerf, nerf and nerf again.... Seems i am doomed to find out this kind of "erase any chance customization" mmo.Got the point, no more DLC purchase, not worth the price at all at this point... Can't really figure out why every weapons load out can't simply play any kind of "damage source", basically it makes traits half as useful as intended.. O.oThanks all for help.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:No offense, but if the issue is that Larcenous Strike is not considered a Dual Wield attack per Deadly Ambition, you should have specified that rather than talking about D/D or changing AA's to be dual wield skills.

S/D is not meant to be a condi loadout and has been nerfed along with Panic Strike's poison as a consequence of it having previously been a viable condi kit in the past.Man, it is the first claim of suggestion I did start to talk about O.o@"Virgarth.6354" said:What I did notice is that an eventual sword/dagger would be kinda effective on the condi side (especially on some kind of hybrid set as rampager is) unless a little...well let's call it "mistake" on the overall skill balance, and the same for the short bow to be honest.In the d/s rotation, the basic attack, in my opinion again, should be turned as dual wield, in order to make the Deadly Ambition talent really effective (likely the dagger attack lotus strike which will applies poison in any case cuz proper of the skill itself and not due the dual wield trait), the other skills are pretty much pertinent to the condi build cuz of traits like panic strike on infiltrator strike and deadly amb. on skill n3 (both of phases). In my opinion this would grant a better characterization from the build allowing to play it at its best.

@"Virgarth.6354" said:Ok, so basically nerf, nerf and nerf again.... Seems i am doomed to find out this kind of "erase any chance customization" mmo.Got the point, no more DLC purchase, not worth the price at all at this point... Can't really figure out why every weapons load out can't simply play any kind of "damage source", basically it makes traits half as useful as intended.. O.oThanks all for help.

You missed the boat a while ago on this class and in the game in general. There's a lot of effort being put in trying to simplify things and a lot of design inconsistency on the thief for a long time. Guardian, Engineer, and necromancer currently have a large number of builds available to them whereas the thief over the past several years has had one or two viable builds and nothing else.

Really, Death Blossom has been a rather pointless skill and the reason why D/D has been inferior to all other kits for 8+ years. ANet generally doesn't like to rework thief skills unless it removes an exploit.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:No offense, but if the issue is that Larcenous Strike is not considered a Dual Wield attack per Deadly Ambition, you should have specified that rather than talking about D/D or changing AA's to be dual wield skills.

S/D is not meant to be a condi loadout and has been nerfed along with Panic Strike's poison as a consequence of it having previously been a viable condi kit in the past.Man, it is the first claim of suggestion I did start to talk about O.o@"Virgarth.6354" said:What I did notice is that an eventual sword/dagger would be kinda effective on the condi side (especially on some kind of hybrid set as rampager is) unless a little...well let's call it "mistake" on the overall skill balance, and the same for the short bow to be honest.In the d/s rotation, the basic attack, in my opinion again, should be turned as dual wield, in order to make the Deadly Ambition talent really effective (likely the dagger attack lotus strike which will applies poison in any case cuz proper of the skill itself and not due the dual wield trait), the other skills are pretty much pertinent to the condi build cuz of traits like panic strike on infiltrator strike and deadly amb. on skill n3 (both of phases). In my opinion this would grant a better characterization from the build allowing to play it at its best.

It's more that there's a dynamic where the skills and traits need to ideally be created and designed for the PvP formats, and that the competitive PvE community for raids etc. which freak out about numbers will get upset regardless unless you play an optimal DPS build. In the PvP modes if something over-performs, it's got to get nerfed, and if it's not optimal in PvE, it doesn't get played.

Panic Strike's poison application used to not have a cooldown, and thus S/D condi was viable in the PvP modes by spamming IS/IR (Sword 2). This build was very low-skill and way too effective as a consequence. Poison is a powerful effect which cuts healing and deals a pretty substantial DoT, in which all conditions ignore armor, blocks, and dodges. Putting it on the AA and arbitrarily on mainhand sword by also arbitrarily making Sword AA be a dual skill doesn't make a lot of sense and goes against past precedence, and with the AA, this effect, which has no initiative cost, pretty much guarantees a target is permanently heal-cut and taking substantial condition damage, all the while letting the thief maintain its high evasion and non-committal combat approach that S/x kits already enjoy from IS/IR and either FS/LS or PW.

While I'm normally not in opposition to suggestions to create more diversity - quite the contrary - the suggestion you implied of putting poison on MH sword AA is simply not a good one, and generally, S/D in particular is not meant to be condition or DPS-heavy by virtue of how it plays. Especially for WvW when access to Dire/Trailblazer gear is an option, with S/D already being a VERY difficult kit to pin down.

You'll get a better understanding as you play the game more as to why this idea isn't a good one over time.

I would fixate less on what mechanism you'd like to deal damage with (power vs condi) and instead focus on what playstyle you'd prefer. Some builds are just better-suited to one or another, and I don't really think S/D can be balanced as a condi kit across the different modes without making for drastic skill splits, which are not good long-term as it creates increasing levels of confusion as people switch modes with totally different expectations.

Save yurself the trouble just use Pistol Dagger.

Pistol Dagger offers :

• An Auto which applies Bleed.
• An immobilizing skill to apply Poison when traited
• A Torment burst which teleports yu back and allow rapid Bleed stacking for cheap Ini cost
• On demand Stealth if in melee range.