Scourge PvE life force costs analysis [Updated] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Scourge PvE life force costs analysis [Updated]

Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 21, 2017 in Necromancer

This thread is pertaining to the usage of Scourge in a raid environment. This thread assumes a viper/sinister build with no vitality from gear.

Updated to the new life force costs

I used kKagari's highly useful life force cost table for this.

Scourge's meta build will presumably be using Soul Reaping with Vital Persistance and Strength of Undeath. Using the chart this gives a life force pool of 16673. This yields the percentage cost of each F skill per use.

F2: 11.61% per use
F3: 14.92% per use
F4: 22.10% per use
F5: 27.63% per use

These numbers can then be combined with their cooldown to get a average life force cost per second value for using the skill on cooldown.

The first percentage is cost without alacrity, the second is with 100% alacrity. The base cooldown accounts for Vital Persistence.

F2: -2.90% -4.33% per sec (4 sec base cd)
F3: -2.33% -3.53% per sec (6.4 sec base cd)
F4: -1.84% -2.74% per sec (12 sec base cd)
F5: -1.72% -2.57% per sec (16 sec base cd)

Scourge's meta weapon sets will presumably be scepter/torch with scepter/dagger.

Feast of Corruption gives 13% (14.3% with Gluttony) life force per use. This yields a life force gain of:

Scepter3: +1.43% +2.13% per sec (10 sec base cd)

This demonstrates that Scourge running double scepter does not generate enough life force to use F5 on cooldown. However according to a recent dev post, Harrowing Wave will now grant 3% LF (3.3% with gluttony). Harrowing Wave has a cooldown of 20 seconds, and while Fell Beacon does reduce the cooldown of Harrowing Wave, due to weapon swap cooldowns Scourge will not be using Harrowing Wave more than once every 20 seconds regardless.

Torch4: +0.17% +0.24% per sec (effective 20 sec cd)

Combined with Scepter3 this yields:

Scepter3 + Torch4: +1.60% +2.37%

So even with Torch4's new life force gain, Scourge cannot get enough life force to use F5 on cooldown.

Scourge will presumably use BiP and Epidemic for utilites. This leaves 1 free slot for a life force generating utility.
I propose using Shadow Fiend as that utility. Shadow Fiend's active skill Haunt generates 10% (11% with gluttony) life force on use. Using Haunt on cd yields the following:

Haunt: +0.55% +0.82% per sec (20 sec base cd)

Combined with Scepter3 and Torch4 this yields:

Scepter3 +Torch4 + Haunt: +2.15% +3.19% per sec

This will allow scourge to use F5 on cd, and maybe one of the other skills every once in a great while. However I'd like to increase my F skill usage as much as possible. I note that not every fight makes use of epidemic, so I prepose using Signet of Undeath in place of epidemic in relevant fights. Signet of Undeath passively generates 2% Life Force every three seconds, which yields a average of:

USiggy: +0.67% per sec (USiggy passive is not affected by alacrity)

Combined with Scepter3, Torch4 and Haunt:

Scepter3 + Torch4 + Haunt + USiggy: +2.82% +3.86% per sec

This still does not allow constant use of anything beyond F5, but it does allow more frequent use of other things.

Other mean to increase LF.

  • It may be worth looking into the use of vitality gear on Scourge for the purposes of easing the insanely tight LF costs
  • you might consider killing your squad members for their Life Force.

Please correct any bad math you see.

Sanity is for the weak minded
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<1

Comments

  • I think you forgot Gluttony in your calculations. It doesn't change much, but it's slightly less bad.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    I think you forgot Gluttony in your calculations. It doesn't change much, but it's slightly less bad.

    Oh you're right
    sigh
    On it

    Alright I fixed the math to include Gluttony.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • That's bad enough to make me wonder if Focus might replace dagger offhand.

    Or if we could convince a Warrior to run Banner of Defense...

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is why I like necromancers. Maths.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well I hope nobody had any dreams about running a Scourge without Soul Reaping.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Thanks for doing the math on this!

    I wonder what the cost/benefit would be for running warhorn or focus on one of the weapon sets just to have the additional LF generation, even if it stings to possibly lose dagger off-hand for it. You lose the condi transfer on dagger 4, which is already pretty painful when you're running BiP, and you lose additional dps from not having dagger 5. Would it be enough of a gain for it to be an overall benefit?

    Though as far as raids go, there are often adds around which should help generate LF to make up for the lack of LF generation on offhand dagger/torch. Not always, but it's common enough that it's worth thinking about how various deaths per minute from adds might increase the efficacy of scourge in raids and make them stronger, in particular fights with lots of adds (Xera comes to mind). Some food for thought!

  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, viper gear almost seems counter productive. A real kick in the gonads.

  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    @okalevi.2917 said:
    Thanks for doing the math on this!

    I wonder what the cost/benefit would be for running warhorn or focus on one of the weapon sets just to have the additional LF generation, even if it stings to possibly lose dagger off-hand for it. You lose the condi transfer on dagger 4, which is already pretty painful when you're running BiP, and you lose additional dps from not having dagger 5. Would it be enough of a gain for it to be an overall benefit?

    Though as far as raids go, there are often adds around which should help generate LF to make up for the lack of LF generation on offhand dagger/torch. Not always, but it's common enough that it's worth thinking about how various deaths per minute from adds might increase the efficacy of scourge in raids and make them stronger, in particular fights with lots of adds (Xera comes to mind). Some food for thought!

    Hmm, with the new changes to Torment for PvE, unless you are fighting a boss that never moves, like flamethrower lady (forgot her name, haven't raided since forever), every two stacks of torment will essentially equal three stacks of bleed. That's HUGE! It almost seems like torment is the way to go, and you can even get tanks adjust their tanking style to make bosses twitch slightly for more torment damage. If they aren't moving you're losing 1 stack of bleed, for every 3 bleeds, mathematically speaking.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    This among other things, unless they changed them, is why i'll be running grieving with main hand dagger.

  • Maunzi.3764Maunzi.3764 Member ✭✭✭

    Why do we use Scepter in both sets, when we can use dagger? This instantly changes everything:

    • Life force problem is solved, allowing frequent usage of F abilities
    • Our life force generation and/or DPS does not collapse the moment we are expected to use other utilities(such as CPC).
    • Scepter downtime is filled by dagger (or staff when fighting grouped enemies), using this time well
    • The speed of dagger AA still adds bleeds, and the amount of Torment from F2 or F3 (or the amount of BB damage/Healing from F4) easily outweigh the loss of Scepter AA during downtime.

    Any rotation testing needs to consider Dagger/X instead of Scepter/X for one weapon set. Dagger not having conditions doesn't mean we can discount it outright.

  • Rym.1469Rym.1469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    It may be worth looking into the use of vitality gear on Scourge for the purposes of easing the insanely tight LF costs

    The last PoF stat set could be Viper's, with Vit replacing power.

    you might consider killing your squad members for their Life Force.

    Soul Comprehension value.

    Yeah, I stream once in a blue moon.

  • Belenwyn.8674Belenwyn.8674 Member ✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    We have also to consider future raids. Will bosses and mobs have a decent amount of boons by stealing or self-generation? In these cases the use of nourishing rot will allow a very stable LF generation.

    Tehe is stil the probability that future PoF raids will require a different setup compared to raids of the HoT era. we have to wait and see.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Maunzi.3764 said:
    Why do we use Scepter in both sets, when we can use dagger? This instantly changes everything:

    • Life force problem is solved, allowing frequent usage of F abilities
    • Our life force generation and/or DPS does not collapse the moment we are expected to use other utilities(such as CPC).
    • Scepter downtime is filled by dagger (or staff when fighting grouped enemies), using this time well
    • The speed of dagger AA still adds bleeds, and the amount of Torment from F2 or F3 (or the amount of BB damage/Healing from F4) easily outweigh the loss of Scepter AA during downtime.

    Any rotation testing needs to consider Dagger/X instead of Scepter/X for one weapon set. Dagger not having conditions doesn't mean we can discount it outright.

    Because dropping scepter in favor of dagger is a significantly larger DPS loss than the DPS you will gain from using more F skills.

    As long as scepter provides just enough LF to use F5 on cd, scepter will be our only weapon choice.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    @Maunzi.3764 said:
    Why do we use Scepter in both sets, when we can use dagger? This instantly changes everything:

    • Life force problem is solved, allowing frequent usage of F abilities
    • Our life force generation and/or DPS does not collapse the moment we are expected to use other utilities(such as CPC).
    • Scepter downtime is filled by dagger (or staff when fighting grouped enemies), using this time well
    • The speed of dagger AA still adds bleeds, and the amount of Torment from F2 or F3 (or the amount of BB damage/Healing from F4) easily outweigh the loss of Scepter AA during downtime.

    Any rotation testing needs to consider Dagger/X instead of Scepter/X for one weapon set. Dagger not having conditions doesn't mean we can discount it outright.

    Basically because the damage loss from being on Dagger instead of Scepter isn't looking to be made up solely by more F2 and F3 use.

    F4 you want to save for breakbars ideally, since it's a high cost for just one shade pulse. You're still going to be better off camping Scepter mainhand.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Ralkuth.1456Ralkuth.1456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    you might consider killing your squad members for their Life Force.

    It is time to dethrone the guild prima donna Deeps Monkeigh from his top meter spot; our Necromancers will gratefully and solemnly appreciate his life-juice donation.

    "Ahh Deeps, maybe we can talk about your unsurpassed skill over here? This cliff view is amazing." "Of course I'm amazing!"

    Player of distinguishing mediocrity (S5: G3, S6: P1).
    Carrying enemy team since 2012.
    "Multiclass implies you can actually play the class" - A Certain Royalty, on Twitch

  • Maunzi.3764Maunzi.3764 Member ✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Maunzi.3764 said:
    Why do we use Scepter in both sets, when we can use dagger? This instantly changes everything:

    • Life force problem is solved, allowing frequent usage of F abilities
    • Our life force generation and/or DPS does not collapse the moment we are expected to use other utilities(such as CPC).
    • Scepter downtime is filled by dagger (or staff when fighting grouped enemies), using this time well
    • The speed of dagger AA still adds bleeds, and the amount of Torment from F2 or F3 (or the amount of BB damage/Healing from F4) easily outweigh the loss of Scepter AA during downtime.

    Any rotation testing needs to consider Dagger/X instead of Scepter/X for one weapon set. Dagger not having conditions doesn't mean we can discount it outright.

    Basically because the damage loss from being on Dagger instead of Scepter isn't looking to be made up solely by more F2 and F3 use.

    It looks the exact opposite to me. Remaining in scepter is downtime that benefits you little. All you gain is +150 Condition damage during this.
    Tests during the two times we could test scourge clearly showed a significant DPS increase over just using Scepter, if demonic lore is traited.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    You might see more damage from burns, but far less on bleeds and poison. Short burns are great, but they don't quite compare to the 30 second bleeds on Grasping Dead, for example.

    Torch is definitely good for damage. I will never dispute that for a millisecond. The Shade abilities don't look to make up for the DPS loss off of dagger vs. Scepter, even factoring in Demonic Lore and Dhuumfire (and without those, there's no way it compares).

    Consider for a moment that it only takes one Scepter auto chain to match the damage of a shade proc with Demonic Lore also triggering. In the 10 seconds minimum you would be in Dagger, that's 5 auto chains you're locked out of (assuming no Quickness). While you're in dagger, you can only possibly hit 3 Demonic Lore procs, so any other Shade skill uses are even less effective. Oh, and while in dagger, you don't get that 150 condition damage, so your shade procs compare even less favorably to Scepter auto.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Drawing Guy.3701Drawing Guy.3701 Member ✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    I did this in another thread, but it was ignored and here is an obviously better place:

    As others have mentioned, scepter faces the issue of having poor LF gain, and their is a line where the gain of Shade DPS due to more LF gain is greater than the loss of Scepter DPS. Dagger passes that line, Staff unquestionable passes that line in multiple target situations, and it would take some number crunching to see if Axe passes that line.

    Soul Reaping will essentially be a core line for most Scourge builds for Dhuumfire and VP cooldowns, so let's due some basic pre-live vacuum math! Note that this does not take into account after cast delays, whether casting skills during Desert Shroud even works, or other minor factors. This is simply early theory crafting to establish scope. I round down in all cases, so weapons like Axe or Warhorn show lower than what they really are over time.

    How much Life Force would a Scourge spend spamming Shade skills over a minute?

    Nefarious Favor - 4s CD traited - 1382 LF cost :: can cast ~15 times in 1 min
    Sand Cascade - 6.4s CD traited - 2487 LF cost :: can cast ~9 times in 1 min
    Garish Pillar - 12s CD traited - 4606 LF cost :: can cast ~5 times in 1 min
    Desert Shroud - 16s CD traited - 3685 LF cost :: can cast 3-4 times in 1 min

    (1382 * 15) + (2487 * 9) + (4606 * 5) + (3685 * 3) = 77,198

    Your Life Force pool is affected by Vitality, so these numbers will also be affected by this, but to keep math simple and closer to a glass cannon build of 16,674

    Over a 1 minute, the following weapons can gain:
    Dagger: 2.04s for attack cycle, 8% LF gain over attack cycle + .8% from Gluttony. 8.8% * 16,674 = 1467 LF * 29 attack cycles per min = 42,543 LF per min

    Staff: 1.32s for attack cycle, 4% LF per attack + .4% from Gluttony. 4.4% * 16,674 = 733 LF * 45 attacks per min = 32,985 LF per min. This can be increased greatly by multiple targets.
    ** Soul Marks is a LF gain on single targets, but loss as soon as you can hit 2+ targets with auto as you can't proc Mark LF more than once. Though using staff, you'll likely want this ability to keep LF up while using other skills. Too lazy to actually calculate this.

    Axe: Gluttony gives 12% LF on an 8s CD. This can be traited to 6.4s, but Spite is in competition with Curses. 12% + 1.2% from Gluttony. 13.2% * 16,674 = 2,200.
    - Traited: 2,200 * 9 casts per min = 19,800 LF per min
    - Untraited: 2,200 * 7 casts per min = 15,400 LF per min

    Scepter: 8% base + 1% per condi (5 cap) on 10s CD. 8.8 - 14.3% with Gluttony. 8.8% * 16,674 = 1467. 14.3% * 16,674 = 2,384. 6 casts per min give a range of 8,802 - 14,304 per min.

    Offhand options:
    Focus: 3% * number of targets hit (up to 5, and as it can self-bounce, is effective even on single target unless too far away) on a 15s CD. Can be traited to 12s with Spite, making it a good combo if building for Axe. 3.3 * 16,674 = 550 * 5 bounces = 2,750 LF.
    - Traited: 2,750 * 5 casts per min = 13,750 per min
    - Untraited: 2,750 * 4 casts per min = 11,000 per min

    Warhorn: 1.5% * number of targets hit * 10 procs untrated and 15 traited on a 30s CD untraited or 24s CD Traited. This gives quite the range of potential on this skill. 1.6% * 16,674 = 266 LF per tick.
    - Traited: 266 * 15 ticks = 3,990 * 2 casts per min = 7,980 LF per min (multiplied by however many targets in melee range)
    - Untraited: 266 * 10 ticks = 2,660 * 2 casts per min = 5,320 LF per min (multiplied by however many targets in melee range)

    This means the optimal LF gain on a single target is Dagger + Focus with Dagger + Warhorn swap. Though offhand gains would need to be calculated against offhand DPS options like Dagger and Torch as well.

    Traited, Axe + Focus is stronger single target ranged LF gain than Staff, while Staff wins if Axe and Focus are not traited. Staff is best LF gain overall if you can hit multiple targets with auto often enough.

    The only situation where Scepter can compete in the LF gain field is when used in swap-heavy rotations on targets with 5+ conditions as the 10s weapon swap CD would negate the Axe CD advantages. However losing Dagger auto is a huge LF loss even with the burst LF that Axe or Scepter can get, so as long as the Shade DPS loss would outweigh any DPS gain of Scepter, it becomes more of a question of how often can you not be in Melee range.

    If people want it, I can throw in Utility numbers as well. All of this will really depend on where Shade DPS falls come live. I personally hope that it is high enough that people will build around life force rather than being just a supplement to Scepter auto.

    @Drarnor - I think you're seriously underestimating Shade DPS. While a full 2.4s cast of Scepter auto may do more than a single cast of Manifest Shade, you can cast Manifest Shade 3 times in the time it takes to cast that scepter chain, which is at least double the damage of that chain (how much more depends on traits, enemy boons, etc). Doing dagger-auto during those castings is not 0 damage. In addition, Shade is AOE where Scepter is single target, and Shades can do more than just cast Burn and Torment. Preliminary testing shows Shade + Dagger > Scepter + Shade on single target DPS. Multiple targets it is not even a contest. We'll see more come live, though I am curious to see how Axe compares to Scepter on a Viper build for when you have to stay at range.

  • You never want to cast Manifest Shade 3 times in a row. That might be more immediate damage, but then you have a period with no shades up at all. Ideally, you're putting up a shade every 10-12 seconds to ensure constantly having two shades up at all times.

    All other F skills don't have a cast time, so obviously they don't detract from weapon-based DPS, but the damage difference is just that massive. 5 Scepter auto cycles are basically equivalent damage to Dagger auto + shade skill use. There's a negligible difference between them. However, that is only with no Alacrity or Quickness. Demonic Lore's cooldown is a hard limit; Alacrity doesn't make it come up any faster. With Quickness, now you're trying to compare those same Shade procs to another 2.5 auto cycles. Given each Scepter cycle is more damage than each dagger cycle, this widens the gap significantly in favor of Scepter. Once Alacrity kicks in and you start missing Grasping Dead and Feast of Corruption use, Dagger auto is truly dead in the water in comparison.

    Now, is it better in AoE scenarios? Yes. If you are dealing with multi-target scenarios, then life force generation takes higher priority over raw weapon skill damage. Against a single target, you're better off never leaving Scepter.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2017

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    That might be more immediate damage, but then you have a period with no kitten up at all. Ideally, you're putting up a shade every 10-12 seconds to ensure constantly having two kitten up at all times.

    Going to assume kitten if the plural of shade. Without any alacrity you will at all times be able to have 1 shade up. Regardless of how you cast them.
    I also see you reference 5 sceptre auto chains constantly. Why?

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    That might be more immediate damage, but then you have a period with no kitten up at all. Ideally, you're putting up a shade every 10-12 seconds to ensure constantly having two kitten up at all times.

    Going to assume kitten if the plural of shade. Without any alacrity you will at all times be able to have 1 shade up. Regardless of how you cast them.

    Yeah, the plural of "shade" is censored for some reason. Topics about Scourge will be very interesting...

    And you are correct, one will recharge before the first dies,

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    Yeah, the plural of "shade" is censored for some reason.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • @Drarnor - I think you're misinterpreting what we're referring to with "Manifest Shade" procs. There is the F1 skill that summons the Shade, and the Shade pulse that comes off of the skill. That pulse happens with every single Shade skill. Per tool wiki:

    Manifest a sand shade using some of your life force. Whenever you use a shade ability, you and your sand shades strike nearby foes.

    Press F1 to summon a second Shade? First one and yourself pulses. Press F2? All active shades and yourself pulses... same with F3-5. You could have ZERO Shades up, and F2 - F5 are still useful pulsing the Manifest Shade damage in a PBAoE around yourself. It is why Soul Reaping is so critical - to lower the CDs of your Shade abilities along with the Dhuumfire ability. Unless you have a tough condi hit or burst you need to protect against, you want to be spamming F2, 3, and 5 on CD. F1 for shade placement for ranged/wider pressure and F4 for breakbar are the only skills you'll really be saving. As this thread discusses, Scepter can barely maintain the usage of F5 (which is the most efficient use of Life Force to DPS), let alone add in the other skills. From the numbers I've seen, being able to use most Shade skills on cooldown with use of a Dagger does more DPS than Scepter and F5 only. We're theory crafting based on that, though it will be PoF going live and more thorough testing that will give more conclusive numbers.

  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've said it before, F1's name is terrible, it implies the summoning of a shade, which it does, but the skill itself is also the action of pulsing out damage, when other shade skills are utilised.

    Currently it implies the skill as 'summon with a byproduct of damage'

    It should be renamed so that it implies 'damage, with a byproduct of a summon'

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2017

    So say "Shade pulse" instead of "Summon Sand Shade." I'm quite aware of how the F skills function on Scourge. Including the fact that Dhuumfire does not proc off of the pulse from you, and Transfustion does not pulse from any shades.

    The thing you're forgetting is that the damage you lose from sitting on dagger to gain the life force is more than the damage you gain from using F2 and F3 with higher frequency. During your swap to Dagger, you only get 6-8 seconds of actually auto-attacking on account of needing to place a Shade, use your offhand skills, and possibly utility skills. That doesn't give you much time to build life force, only 26.4%, which only nets you three F2 uses. Staying on Scepter, you generate just over half of that anyway. You don't make up the damage loss.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • It’s a shame PvE enemies don’t have more boons, because if they had Nourishing Rot would fix this difficulty to generate life force with sceptre + torch/dagger.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2017

    Well, then we'd have a different question: is the life force making up for the Expertise loss and less frequent Torch skills (which are definitely our hardest-hitters in a condition build)? That one is admittedly harder to answer, since frequency of the boons is important.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    Well, then we'd have a different question: is the life force making up for the Expertise loss and less frequent Torch skills (which are definitely our hardest-hitters in a condition build)? That one is admittedly harder to answer, since frequency of the boons is important.

    Omg we could probably maths that.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2017

    Well, 5% every 3 seconds isn't enough to use F2 exactly on cooldown, But I don't yet know how many F2 casts are needed to break even with Fell Beacon. The Expertise from that trait is approximately 7% duration in a Vipers build, so all conditions will do about 2.5% less (Vipers with food and two shades hits 101% duration). This should be made up for by increased F2 use, but doesn't account for the longer cooldown on torch skills.

    Right now, my gut says "no," but I haven't calculated it yet. Again, Alacrity is working against this option being better.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How much life force do you get from deaths btw? I wonder if bone minions have any purpose in all this.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2017

    @kKagari.6804 said:
    How much life force do you get from deaths btw? I wonder if bone minions have any purpose in all this.

    10% from deaths, but minions you can sacrifice or that have timed life don't give any. Flesh Wurm has life force gain built into the sacrifice skill.

    So, Blood Fiend, Bone Minions, Jagged Horrors, Shambling Horrors, Unstable Horrors, and Flesh Wurm give no life force upon death. Only Shadow Fiend, Bone Fiend, and Flesh Golem do.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Belenwyn.8674Belenwyn.8674 Member ✭✭
    edited September 19, 2017

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    Well, then we'd have a different question: is the life force making up for the Expertise loss and less frequent Torch skills (which are definitely our hardest-hitters in a condition build)? That one is admittedly harder to answer, since frequency of the boons is important.

    I think that will be a situational decision depending on encounters. If encounters require a frequent usage of F2 to convert boons and/or conditions Nourishing Rot will support the gameplay a lot. In situations with with low presence of boons and conditions on allies the trait will not help much/at all. I have the feeling that we will see a lot of Scourges and Spellbreakers in future raids. The current meta is relying too much on boons and often stacking to miss the chance of countering that behaviour,

    As a side note, Nourishing Rot is for me the hottest candidate for a split. In PvE it could work like Chilling Darkness ( all boons removed by a single cast or pulse count for LF generation) in WvW definitely not.

  • @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    So say "Shade pulse" instead of "Summon Sand Shade." I'm quite aware of how the F skills function on Scourge. Including the fact that Dhuumfire does not proc off of the pulse from you, and Transfustion does not pulse from any kitten.

    The thing you're forgetting is that the damage you lose from sitting on dagger to gain the life force is more than the damage you gain from using F2 and F3 with higher frequency. During your swap to Dagger, you only get 6-8 seconds of actually auto-attacking on account of needing to place a Shade, use your offhand skills, and possibly utility skills. That doesn't give you much time to build life force, only 26.4%, which only nets you three F2 uses. Staying on Scepter, you generate just over half of that anyway. You don't make up the damage loss.

    I think arguing semantics when I called the pulse ability by the actual skill name is silly, especially when all Scourge traits that affect it call it by that, but whatever.

    Like staying on Scepter, you'd stay on Dagger - any swap off of dagger with the exception of ideal Staff line-ups (which itself would be a much bigger DPS loss than Dagger is) is a LF gain loss. DPS, of course, would be going against camping Scepter 1-3. Where I'd see lots of swapping is between Scepter and Axe if the extra LF is worth it. While there were a few posts putting tests for Dagger ahead of Scepter, at this point it's still too early for conclusive statements.

    As for Dhuumfire and Transfusion - Dhuumfire I admit in my testing that I did not pay attention for it triggering off myself... I will definitely confirm that come Live, but you'll be wanting to drop a Shade in all fights for Sand Soul anyways. Transfusion you can see triggering off Shade in Wooden Potatoe's video (14:25):

    As long as that stays, that puts some interesting support build options in WvW and PvP.

    @Alchimist.4738 - The 3s cooldown on Nourishing Rot unfortunately puts the Trait in the "trash" category for me. I know it's to stop from massive LF gain in WvW zerg situations, but is that really the end of the world? It would make it a solid build choice between the support of Abrasive Grit, DPS of Fell Beacon, or LF gain to make Shade skills spammable with Nourishing. Until they remove the CD or rework the skill, it's a non-factor IMO. Personally I plan on running Abrasive Grit in open world (as quick Might gain and ignoring condis is better for trash killing than condi duration) or giving party support, and Fell Beacon for everything else.

    @kKagari.6804 - The ones that aren’t meant to be destroyed (Flesh Golem, Bone Fiend, Shadow Fiend) do give life force when dead, all the rest (Bone Minions, Blood Fiend, Flesh Worm, Unstable Horrors, and Shambling Horrors) do not. This means that the only way to get Life Force gain is from single summons that are at the whim of others to kill, have longer CDs, and you'll be sustaining with any barrier use... in short, they don't really com into play for LF gain gameplay.

  • Thanks for confirming that Drarnor. Still glad that they gave it full pulse of a single cast skill rather than it being a useless single tick tied to the actual skill pulses.

    Figured I'd take the time to point out Utility LF values:

    Utilities have the advantage of some out of combat LF gains. There are 5 ways you can gain LF out of combat:

    • Dessicate
    • Lich Form on end of Transform
    • Flesh Worm teleport
    • Summoning Flesh Golem, Bone Fiend, or Shadow Fiend then changing the skill after CD
    • Spectral Mastery (Spectral Grasp still requires enemy hit to gain, and competes against Vital Persistence)

    Dessicate has the shortest CD of these options and requires no swapping to perform, but you should always be able to enter combat with a full LF bar.

    I'm going to ignore Spectral Mastery in these numbers as I consider losing Vital Persistence counter to the point of max LF gain for increase Shade usage. Also going to default add Gluttony to the numbers - So those not running Soul Reaping would get 10% less. Keeping with the 1 minute rounded down cycle as well.

    Dessicate: 11% on a 20s CD, 16s traited. Rounding causes no difference over a one minute timer, but obviously is better traited over time. 16,674 * 11% = 1834 * 3 = 5,502 LF per min

    Haunt: This is the Shadow Fiend command, and requires your minion to be summoned and an enemy target to use. 11% on a 20s CD. 16,674 * 11% = 1834 * 3 = 5,502 LF per min

    Necrotic Traversal: This requires Flesh Worm to be summoned, but will give you LF in or out of combat. As it destroys the Flesh Worm, it is tied to the CD of the summon. 11% on a 32s CD. 16,674 * 11% = 1834 per min (can't use twice in a single min, especially after long cast times)

    Signet of Undeath: 2.2% every 3s untraited, and 3.3% every 3s traited, though going Spite and giving up Close to Death is a tough cookie to swallow.
    - Traited: 16,674 * 3.3% = 550 * 20 = 11,000 LF per min
    - Untratied: 16,674 * 2.2% = 366 * 20 = 7,320 LF per min

    Spectral Armor: This one only gives LF (not counting Spectral Mastery 5.5% on cast) when you get hit, so can range from ZERO Life Force to 8.8% every second (assuming you get hit with perfect timing) for the 8s duration (9.6% traited, but not calculating that). This is the upper limit: 16,674 * 8.8% * 8 procs = 11,738 per min. The long CD (40s) means one cast per min, but the Soul Reaping Last Gasp trigger has its own timer (50s), so it is possible to get this triggered twice in a single min.

    Spectral Grasp: 16.5% on a 50s CD (both untraited). 16,674 * 16.5% = 2,751 LF per min

    Spectral Walk: Faces the same concerns as Spectral Armor, and using Recall will stop the LF gain. This is upper limit: 16,674 * 2.2% * 10 procs = 3,668 per min.

    Lich Form: 16.5% at the end of Lich Form on a 180s CD. 16,674 * 16.5% = 2,751 / 3 (due to the CD lasting 3 mins) = 917 LF per min.

    Spectral Armor has the potential for a great boost of LF, but is so highly situational (especially when your goal is to not be hit) the clear highest LF option is Signet of Undeath, which is unsurprising. Though I don't think that will compete against Dessicate which over time is pretty close to an untraited signet and has additional utility of DPS.

  • Arzurag.7506Arzurag.7506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2017

    I hope the expaansion reveals gear with stat-combinations that are worth running on scourge, otherwise I´ll stick to power.^^

    edit: don´t worry, I´ll stay away from raids ;)

    "I´m not big on sermons, Broken bones teach better lessons."

  • Exqq.7451Exqq.7451 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arzurag.7506 said:
    I hope the expaansion reveals gear with stat-combinations that are worth running on scourge, otherwise I´ll stick to power.^^

    edit: don´t worry, I´ll stay away from raids ;)

    I'll be right there with you on my Power Minion Scourge, lulz!

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Come on, Friday! Call it morbid curiosity but I am eager to find out what changes were made since the beta weekends.

    I really thought the LF generation limit for sceptre builds was an intentional nerf to Scourge / Curses synergy and hope I am wrong.

  • @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Come on, Friday! Call it morbid curiosity but I am eager to find out what changes were made since the beta weekends.

    I really thought the LF generation limit for sceptre builds was an intentional nerf to Scourge / Curses synergy and hope I am wrong.

    Can't say it was a nerf, since Scepter life force generation hasn't changed since before HoT.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Lexan.5930Lexan.5930 Member ✭✭✭

    if the point of your build is condi dmg then taking lingering curse and switching to dagger is a huge dps loss because your losing 150 condi dmg. LF gen might be an issue but hopefully out main dps will come from our weapons and the LF skills and utility augment the dps but dont define it. This allows for some super high dps specific builds and rotations, but also allows us to find a general form of a build that can do well single target and multi target and moveing target (which will be the hardest with sand shades.

    I'll probably be goig scepter/torch, staff for the most variety in encounters. And for LF gen there is also desicrate for LF gen on shorter CD with the trait. It kinda feels like we're going to need to make sure our FoC hits with the max cndi's on the enemy all the time for tormentthen burning but also for the LF gain so we can't start with it but also can't just spam it.

    All in all i'm really liking the ability to manage my skill priorities and a small rotation with still like desicate, summmon shade, bip, cleanse condi, apply some condi's then hit em with foc then pop shroud.

    will also be fun to see the rotations for each encounter as well

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2017

    Meant that Scourge's LF utilization is nerfed/limited by sceptre and OH dagger. I suspected it was intentional or torch and Scourge traits would be designed to ensure Scourge F-skills had plenty of LF supply for that family of builds.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Meant that Scourge's LF utilization is nerfed/limited by sceptre and OH dagger. I suspected it was intentional or torch and Scourge traits would be designed to ensure Scourge F-skills had plenty of LF supply for that family of builds.

    Anet have said they would be adjusting all elite specs, after the first demo, so it is possible we will see some changes in that department.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've updated the chart to reflect today's changes! https://imgur.com/9QspTSb

    Please update your link too Crinn!

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    @kKagari.6804 said:
    I've updated the chart to reflect today's changes! https://imgur.com/9QspTSb

    Please update your link too Crinn!

    I updated all of the math in the original post.

    Needless to say it's pretty bad. Even with the added life force gain to Harrowing Wave, Scourge still can't use F5 on cooldown without investing in LF generating utility skills. And you can kiss any chance of using other F skills goodbye.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Eh, I'm still tentatively excited :anguished: for PvP anyways.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kKagari.6804 said:
    Eh, I'm still tentatively excited :anguished: for PvP anyways.

    I spend almost all my time in sPvP (platinum 2 currently) I am quite certain that Scourge will not be competitive in PvP. It doesn't bring anything to the table, and it's far more vulnerable compared to reaper.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2017

    Ehh, depends on how many condition builds there are in PvP. Scourge is still really strong against conditions.

    If Power builds end up becoming most common (unlikely, given how many condition-focused Elite Specs we're getting), then yeah, Scourge is in a terrible place.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    Ehh, depends on how many condition builds there are. Scourge is still really strong against conditions.

    Irrelevant, there are better ways for handling condis than taking a class that dies whenever a ranged class, a thief, or a power melee class sneezes on it.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Fair enough. Though so far as melee is concerned, there is the matter of how many stacks and how long the Stability on Trail of Anguish is. Doubt it will be enough, but it can't hurt.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    Fair enough. Though so far as melee is concerned, there is the matter of how many stacks and how long the Stability on Trail of Anguish is. Doubt it will be enough, but it can't hurt.

    The way it was worded makes me think its going to be a single stack of stability.

    However it doesn't really matter. Reaper already get's its shroud stability ripped almost immediately (thanks sigil rework) and spellbreaker isn't even in the game yet.

    Scourge will likely be very potent when paired with a support tempest, but it's unlikely that it'll be any more effective than condi reaper + tempest already is.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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