Fractal Diary - A chronicle of Casual and Hardcore runs

With the recent discussion of Fractal elitism and how class exclusivity was deemed unnecessary by the casual community, and crucial by the hardcore community, I decided to see for myself by keeping a chronicle of my Fractal runs on NA. I timed all of my runs for the last 30 days, 15 using hardcore raid comps (Druid, Chrono, and Meta DPS), 15 without any team composition requirements, and also tracked the team comps. 15 days was chosen because fractal dailies are on a 15 day rotation.

Disclaimer: Due to low sample size and a billion lurking variables including but not limited to: time of day you play, number of LFGs up at a given time, or concurrence with other in game events, this data is not meant to be definitive proof. This is simply anecdotes of my experiences for the last 30 days. Assume that any conclusions I state in this post is preceded by "In my experience..."

Observations and Summary:Spreadsheet can be found here.

1. On average, combining LFG time and fractal play time, casual runs took about 33% longer to complete.
2. On days where hard fractals (Twilight Oasis, Shattered Observatory and Nightmare), it pays to be strict with your LFG requirements. Shattered Observatory CM is not for everyone and had a ton of people rage quit during my casual runs because the bosses were too overwhelming. Twilight Oasis, seems to also be a struggle for a large majority of the population.
3. Being able to multiclass (esp Chrono) makes your LFG times a lot shorter if you're queuing for a Raid Comp.
4. In casual runs, having a wide range of utility makes runs way smoother and lets you carry a lot of annoying segments. eg. Having a necro in uncat with cpc/well of darkness to deal with harpies, Flesh Wurm to body block Old Tom's green bolts and The Raving Asura's Lightning bolts, and Epi to cleave everything. A lot of players in T4 still don't know the value of having reflects and blinds in their loadout and would rather repeat face tank harpies.
5. Just because you have a good team comp, does not mean that the players know how to play it. Plenty of the hardcore runs took extra long because we had a Chrono that didn't know how to stack quickness, or DPSers that didn't know rotations so we couldn't single burn subject 6.
6. Class and encounter knowledge is the best indicator for smooth runs. Unfortunately, there's not an easy gate like "ping KP" to test someone's class knowledge. Overall, I found days where I ran Hardcore, I had better luck with people who knew mechanics.
7. I had surprisingly few people who disregarded LFG. On days where LFG listings were broken, it was due to missing the requirements posted towards the end of the LFG post that's cut off unless you mouse over. Everyone left willingly when it was pointed out that they didn't follow LFG requirements.
8. 99CM is way more chill than 100CM in both difficulty and players.

Logistic DetailsIf you're curious in the details on how I conducted this, read on.Timing

1. Clock wasn't super precise, so +/- 5 seconds on actual times.
2. LFG time started as soon as I posted the listing
3. Fractal times started as soon as I loaded in and stop when we got the prompt to return to the Observatory.
4. Timer would stop if someone took a break or dc'ed
5. LFG timer would start if someone rage quit and we had to look for another to fill the spot
6. I had a limited amount of time each day to play so times with black highlight were days where I deemed the fractal as "timed out" and moved on to do other things.

LFG

1. I always posted my own LFG. I never joined an existing o2. ne
2. For hardcore days I always posted "100/99 CM + T4 Dailies Exped Only Food/Pots. LF Chrono, Druid, Meta DPS 3. only" if SO and Nightmare was a daily, otherwise "T4 Dailies Exped Only Food/Pots. LF Chrono, Druid, Meta DPS 3. only".
3. For casual days I always posted "100/99 CM + T4 Dailies" if SO and Nightmare was a daily, otherwise "T4 Dailies".
4. If there was a CM version of a daily fractal (ie. 99 and 100) I always did the CM version.

Picking my class

1. On hardcore days, I would always look for all 3 roles and would fill the missing one
2. On casual days, I assigned a number to all 11 characters that had 150 AR and would roll a dice to pick a class. I stuck with the class no matter the team comp.
3. I always played to the best of my ability and would try to swap utilities and traits in order to accommodate the situation as best as I could

In conclusion, play whatever style, casual or hardcore, that gives you the most enjoyment!

Thanks for the testing and sharing that info, anecdotal though it may be. I love numbers so I'm actually interested in what it would look like if you have the two 15-day averages from each set of runs for:A) Time spent clearing T4'sB] Time spent clearing each of the CMs

If you don't have that info that's fine too, and thanks again for the data!

Added those numbers into the summary. CM duration for casual runs is invalid since Shattered Observatory were both incompletes.

@Shikaru.7618 said:Added those numbers into the summary. CM duration for casual runs is invalid since Shattered Observatory were both incompletes.

Yay numbers! Thanks again

Well, CM Runs are something a bit more specialized... So that will skew results a bit. But nice job. I guess the theory that people will spend ages on LFG if they're "elitists" kinda fell to ground here, short as the sample might be, it also corroborates with my experience, although i usually don't need to ask for specific classes since between me, my brother and a couple friends we always have the support classes done, and just need to ask for DPS.

It's interesting to see also that even with the casual recruitment you ended up with a few "meta" groups. And that if you exclude those groups from the data the average time increases further.Also would be interesting if you had noted how many in casual groups had pots and/or food (and if those foods were the correct ones for the builds they're using, or just MF food).

Nice data.

I agree with your last sentence. Play with like mind people is the best way to play.

I often have pretty bad luck with LFG. Whenever I dare to join (pot/food/ exp/meta) I end up playing with something like longbow druid, gs chorono and people that use downstate as their rotation. Instantly ragequit after 1 wipe. Etc

I don't really enjoy mesmer/ranger so I don't really have a choice to swap myself.

Nowaday the best way for me to play normal t4fractal is LFG with plain "T4 dailies" . Yeah.. sometimes I got quite weird comp like 4 necros 1 weaver but the clear time isn't so bad.

Despite a weird comp. Most people know how the mechanic work and likely to put food/pots up without asking. Some even swap to support .

Sometimes I face some really bad player (the worst one is scourge that try to explain how snowblind work and accursed me for the reason he's dead from facetanking shaman boss). But they're often leave by themselves and get replace by a better one fast.

So my point is.. If you saw the LFG full of meta requirement and you doesn't feel like joining them. Just "create your own lfg". You're tend to got people with the same mindset pretty fast and you might have some good run.

Have fun :) !

Solid. Thanks for the effort.

What were the "strict meta" DPS builds? Anything on the raid meta guilds' pages?

@"Sister Saxifrage.7361" said:What were the "strict meta" DPS builds? Anything on the raid meta guilds' pages?

Yep!

Assuming those numbers are "representative" of the general community (and we know that they can't be, not really)... it obviously matters to run a strict comp, but it doesn't matter that much. Those who want super fast, easy runs should organize their own static; that's got to shave even more time off.

@"Shikaru.7618" thanks for doing the research.

Some specific numbers from the spreadsheet.

• Strict comp was 46 min per night; loose comp was nearly 60.
• Strict took twice as long (6 min) to find a group as loose (3 min).
• Each fractal took around 6-8 minutes longer with a loose group than a strict group.

I'm using "strict" vs "loose" because there's too much disagreement about what is meant by "casual".

I understand ppl that want to do t4 with the meta composition. I don't understand however ppl that:

-don't list their group searching for chrono/druid and then behave toxic if someone else joins and leave-join a "non meta" group, die instantly and tell everyone that it's impossible to do this without chrono/druid and leave or start vote kick

I usually don't join meta groups, only if I really want something quickly done. I make my own group and just list "t4 dailies" or something like that. It maybe takes a while, it also invites ppl that are newer to the game mode and yes there are people that have no clue what they're doing. But when the "casual" grp fails, compared to the "meta" grp, I always find the reaction in the "casual" grp much more relaxed.

I think, I just can't stand the general attitude of some of the "strict meta players". I had bad and great experiences with both team compositions though

Good numbers, but two things about this thread https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/24707/raid-elitism-happening-in-fractals/p1:

• The above thread is in reference to general T4 completions, not CMs. Multiple times it does specify that CMs should be ran with superior compositions.
• The above thread considers "general LFGing" as joining the very first group you see like: "T4 Dailies" or creating a similar LFG yourself. Those kind of groups take little to not time at all to fill.

Your numbers show that hardcore groups in the end, were 33% faster than general groups but you did two things that have jacked up the numbers in that comparison. First thing is contributing CM wait times and completions during casual play. The above thread link was never implying to play 100CM with a random group. That almost always results in an hour to two hour completion time, if it gets completed at all. Then your casual day LFGs were still asking for CMs, which is something that will for sure grant a lot of extra wait time because most casual not as good players don't run CMs to begin with. Point being in other words: The above thread link was comparing raid meta subgroup completion of just general T4 daily completion with an LFG like: "T4 Dailies Food&Pots LF Druid/Chrono/3DPS" vs. just "T4 Dailies" <- with no requirements. If the test would have been done this way, that 33% slower time on your casual runs would be greatly reduced to the point that the casual runs were nearly as fast as the hardcore runs because LFG wait time will be on average 0 to 30s before finding a group and you wouldn't have struggled with CMs with players who just shouldn't be in that content to begin with.

If you were following that thread and wondering, here is what I usually do everyday unless like yourself, I just run short on time:

• Run non-daily CMs first on either Power DH, Druid or Chrono, whichever is needed.
• Run daily CMs. If a CM is daily, I usually stay in the same group or reform if I have to and just do a raid subgroup and run the rest of the dailies.
• If no CM is daily, join or form a general "T4 Dailies/Recs" with no group requirements, hop on scourge for carry and teach newer players, which I enjoy doing.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Good numbers, but two things about this thread https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/24707/raid-elitism-happening-in-fractals/p1:

• The above thread is in reference to general T4 completions, not CMs. Multiple times it does specify that CMs should be ran with superior compositions.
• The above thread considers "general LFGing" as joining the very first group you see like: "T4 Dailies" or creating a similar LFG yourself. Those kind of groups take little to not time at all to fill.

Your numbers show that hardcore groups in the end, were 33% faster than general groups but you did two things that have jacked up the numbers in that comparison. First thing is contributing CM wait times and completions during casual play. The above thread link was never implying to play 100CM with a random group. That almost always results in an hour to two hour completion time, if it gets completed at all. Then your casual day LFGs were still asking for CMs, which is something that will for sure grant a lot of extra wait time because most casual not as good players don't run CMs to begin with. Point being in other words: The above thread link was comparing raid meta subgroup completion of just general T4 daily completion with an LFG like: "T4 Dailies Food&Pots LF Druid/Chrono/3DPS" vs. just "T4 Dailies" <- with no requirements. If the test would have been done this way, that 33% slower time on your casual runs would be greatly reduced to the point that the casual runs were nearly as fast as the hardcore runs because LFG wait time will be on average 0 to 30s before finding a group and you wouldn't have struggled with CMs with players who just shouldn't be in that content to begin with.

If you were following that thread and wondering, here is what I usually do everyday unless like yourself, I just run short on time:

• Run non-daily CMs first on either Power DH, Druid or Chrono, whichever is needed.
• Run daily CMs. If a CM is daily, I usually stay in the same group or reform if I have to and just do a raid subgroup and run the rest of the dailies.
• If no CM is daily, join or form a general "T4 Dailies/Recs" with no group requirements, hop on scourge for carry and teach newer players, which I enjoy doing.

Yep largely agree with your observations regarding casual run CM wait times. A large portion of that wait time was in the form of refilling after rage quits and not to initially fill the party. I did an average with CMs excluded for fractal duration which resulted in the average fractal duration for casual groups taking 27% longer than hardcore groups. I could/should do an average calculation forlfg on non cm days just to see how close standard t4s are. I'll do that when I get a chance.

I actually noticed I made a mistake in one of the original averages and selected the wrong column for LFG times. The casual times like Trevor Boyer mentioned, should be inflated because of the CM days but somehow they averaged lower than the hardcore days. I fixed the mistake and now the casual LFG times are much higher (as they should be due to the CM rage quit days). Also added an extra row that excludes CM days. Casual LFG times are still lower but not nearly as much as I originally thought. Again remember this data is not representative at all due to low sample size.

After removing the CM days, my hardcore groups were, on average, only about 15% faster than the casual groups.

That sounds about right ^^

Shik.. *hao pei fu ni ah!!!

On ur item 5. Esp important for mai. I will not jump into any LFG. Instead I will make a group. If chrono fail pull. I will leave and make another group. Until I find a good chrono

My fractal run is always ok.. no drama.I made my own group in EU.

CMs + T4 tittle & 50kp+ | Exp chrono, BS, DPS | F&P

Been no drama the last few weeks. Usually hv ppl with infusion plus over 100kp join.

3. ...Twilight Oasis, seems to also be a struggle for a large majority of the population.Seems to be improving, did 3 different runs previously with pugs (G1 w druid sp-1shot , G2 w rev sp-2 wipes, G3 no healer-1 wipe) all 3 groups had deaths, but the group handled the vindicators well and pushed Amala to phase for revivals.

4. & 6. Just because you have a good team comp, does not mean that the players know how to play it. Class and encounter knowledge is the best indicator for smooth runs.Sums it.

5. I had surprisingly few people who disregarded LFG. On days where LFG listings were broken, it was due to missing the requirements posted towards the end of the LFG post that's cut off unless you mouse over. Everyone left willingly when it was pointed out that they didn't follow LFG requirements.Had this incident recently. Joined a party "T4 dalies" with 2 members in it. The 4th joined in, and changed the LFG description w requirements. No one including the party starter made any comment.

6. 99CM is way more chill than 100CM in both difficulty and players.Give it time, S.O is still considered new imo (plus players rarely get to practice unless it's the daily).

LFG seems to have stabilized recently but a change is coming for mesmers. Not sure of the impact on fractals tho, just a heads up.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:Assuming those numbers are "representative" of the general community (and we know that they can't be, not really)... it obviously matters to run a strict comp, but it doesn't matter that much. Those who want super fast, easy runs should organize their own static; that's got to shave even more time off.

@"Shikaru.7618" thanks for doing the research.

Some specific numbers from the spreadsheet.

• Strict comp was 46 min per night; loose comp was nearly 60.
• Strict took twice as long (6 min) to find a group as loose (3 min).
• Each fractal took around 6-8 minutes longer with a loose group than a strict group.

I'm using "strict" vs "loose" because there's too much disagreement about what is meant by "casual".

Also note that while this research does a good job in quantifying the length of a playthrough, it says nothing about how fun or how annoying the runs can be. Personally, I play "strict" comps almost exclusively. Not for the time advantage, but rather for the much smoother experience. Actually the faster completion time is more of a by-product for me.

I can definitely say that the day I randomed power Herald was probably the most miserable fractal experience out of all of the days. I'd much rather sit in so for an hour than play as power Herald again.