Living World and why it's not alive

So here's something I wanted to talk about for a long time.I've been playing GW2 for 5 Years now and to me it has been at it's peak during Living World 1 Scarlets War. I loved it, seeing how it affects the entire world, sseing how Mordremoth awakens and starts to take influence everywhere (destroyed Waypoints, Tendrils all over Tyria) and no matter where you went, you felt the thread of something powerful and it made me excited about HoT and upcoming Living World chapters. But then HoT happened and I was thrown into maps that where honestly not very exciting, they where just full of... everything, just mobs and events everywhere and it was just too much. And worst of all, suddenly all of tyria didn't matter anymore, nothing happened anywhere except in HoT maps, did Mordremoth seriously need to turn ALL his attention to 4 Maps when previously he was able to reach out and attack multiple maps at once? That was very disappointing to me. Don't get me wrong, not everything is terrible, the HoT maps look amazing, they just aren't very enjoyable to play with so many events at specific times and there is absolutely no second to rest.Then, when I played through the story and got to the Point where I fight Mordremoth (not the event in Dragons Stand) I was disappointed again, killing Zhaitan was already quite anticlimatic but killing Mordremoth was just... nothing, there was no intense fight, no drama, nothing (except a tiny little smile when we finally got rid of Trahearne). Then I thought to myself, hey maybe Dragons Stand is more interesting (Yes, I have not done the DS Meta prior to playing through the story) So I went and played Dragons Stand and I liked it for the most part and when I reached the final stage and saw Mouth of Mordremoth for the first time I was really impressived, that Thing looks like a beast, finally something that actually looks like something that's a threat to tyria. Buuuut then the fight started and it's just about sitting there for 15 Minutes and tossing some bombs on his head, very impressive...And now comes what botheres me the most. After HoT release they announced the next living world chapter and that got me super excited. I thought: "Finally something happens in Tyria again!"NOPE new map, with max 2 days worth of story and some grinding for new stuff and has virtually nothing to do with any other map (as in, nothing happens in all of Tyria except for that one map), next LW Chapter, exactly the same. Why? Because apparently people are mad that Scarlets War changed the world and they can't replay it. Maybe they wouldn't be mad if the world was still changing? If they had something to look forward to other then just a new map? It's almost insulting to call those maps "Living World" There is nothing alive in Tyria, you are just releasing timelocked (!!) maps that have nothing to do with the rest of the world outside of the main story line. Remember when Jormag and Primordus awakened at the same time? When they both started to move? That huge threat to all of Tyria? No? Me neither because nothing happened. I was chilling in Frostgorge Sound (pun intended) waiting for Jormag to come by or maybe at least some of his more powerful minions to show up but in Frostgorge Sound it seemed like nothing much has changed, same in Mount Maelstrom and so forth. Another Day I heard that Divinitys Reach was under attack but when I walked around in DR everything seemed fine, same in Queensdale. How is that a living world?Of course everyone misses Scarlets War, because nothing changes anymore, nothing exciting happens anymore, beeing something that changed the world forever is what made scarlets war so special, if everyone could replay it whenever they wanted it wouldn't be special anymore, no one would give a flying kitten. It would be just like any other World Event that sits on a timer. It would be something that people do on a shedule.But if something where to happen again in Tyria, if Tyria would change again, then of course people would remember scarlet and thing about how cool that event was but they'd have something to look forward to. And of course people there would be new players who would want to be able to replay that chapter as well but if they had something to look forward to it wouldn't be bad!The bad thing is that nowadays everything is the same, that's why so many people look back. Give us something to look forward to! PoF will be content for max 3 weeks I guess, then it's just grinding and waiting for the next "Living World" which is gonna be another new map that will be boring after 2 days.

Oh hey, did you guys know that Balthazaar currently runs around like a madman and threatens to destroy Tyria? You would guess that you'd see some of that somewhere around Tyria right? Yeah no, check out these 4 Maps we made specificly for this incredibly important event!

Yeah, so that's what I wanted to talk about.Yes I miss Scarlets WarNo I don't want to be able to replay it whenever I want, that would ruin my memoriesYes I want actual Living World content (new maps are good but not neccessary and they are terrible if they have nothing to do with the rest of Tyria)

Summary:

• I liked the time when stuff happened not only at the Main event but also all around Tyria (Scarlets Minions invading several maps, Scarlet Destroying Lions Arch, Mordremoth attacking several maps and disabling some Waypoints, etc...) Living World back then was actually alive because things happened everywhere
• Now Living World is just, go to that map do stuff, two Dragons start to move? Here are two maps related to something that threatens the entire world and should affect the entire worldConclusion:
• I think, if we had actual living world content again people wouldn't be so mad about Season 1 not beeing playable anymore since they'll have new things to look forward to and the awakening of two elder dragons might actually be something exciting and thrilling. Or, you know, a mad god of war running around trying to destroy the world we live in might actually have some sort of effect on the world.

And to end on a positive note:I love how the Living World maps look, especially Dragonis Mons looks amazing. And that's the end of the positive note.

I might edit this post later to make it more readable, I hope it doesn't come across as just another whining thread because this is something that really bothers me for quite a while now and actual Living World content is what I miss the most, it's been what made GW2 special to me in the first place and now it's just gone. andbringbackqueensgauntletdragonsbashandstufflikethatplskthxbye

i was thinking that the best of both worlds would be se3 as it is but with current events to progress the story/happenng and fill in the gaps in the downtime.

Current Events aren't really the same thing though, they are great and I'm glad that we have those but they aren't really tied to anything like happenings inside a Living World where. But yes, right now current events are the closest thing to a living world we have and to me "the best of" se3 would be a new map every then and now but only if the events on the map aren't happening only on that map and the story instances that are tied to those events. Like what happened with Lake Doric, there was an attack on DR, yes, but only if you were on Lake Doric or that one story instance in DR. Which wasn't really anything like a living world - it was quite the opposite and it is what will have in my opinion.

Designing all or most of the content as temporary was never going to work out and was a very shortsighted way of handling S1. With that said, it is cool to see occcasional updates to vanilla zones as part of the living world, but doing that in real time just messes with the story in too many weird ways. This is something all MMOs struggle with. WoW's timeline from the perspective of a player in the game is all kinds of screwed up at this point.

IMO, the right way to do it is with Anet's current policy of all maps being "fixed in time" for a set year when it is released, with Anet basically never making non-instanced updates to existing maps in terms of the narrative.

But for significant events, they could add alternate versions of maps with significant changes when major story events occur that they want to center on an existing map (like was done in LW1 and 2). The player would have the ability go to the original timeline version of the map, which would be default pre-80, or a level 80 current version of the map with those changes in place.

With this sort of system, they could do all kinds of things without tampering with the game as a whole, like cleansing Orr, destroying a major city, or whatever else. It would also prevent the need to ever update random ambient dialogue in the game. This is honestly how they should have handled the LA and Kessex Hills storylines, IMO.

Alternate versions of maps would be interesting.They could also make the existing vanilla story more dynamic, so that changes in existing maps, due to living world, would not screw up the story as much but I agree that would be pretty difficult, so alternate versions of maps would be an easier way. Best would probably be to have 1 version of every map that is in its original state and another version that will always be up to date with current events and living world events. On the other hand that might get pretty damn confusing hopping through time all the time... Still I think what they did in S1 & 2 was the best they could've done, I will remember those forever as my best experiences in any online game.

I detested LS1 to the point that I left the game for months as a result of its implementation. Scarlet, and her war, are not something that I miss. I am glad that she is gone and hope that she never comes back.

Good riddance.

@Ashen.2907 said:I detested LS1 to the point that I left the game for months as a result of its implementation. Scarlet, and her war, are not something that I miss. I am glad that she is gone and hope that she never comes back.

Good riddance.

Could you explain why? Because to me, LS1 was the only good thing that set GW2 apart from every other MMO I had played so far, it was the only time when I felt like an event actually happened in the world and actually had an effect on the world I'm playing in. Plus the build-up to Scarlets attack on LA was interesting and was something that I felt like the player in the story actually was part of. I never understood how someone could not have liked that, I understand people who are mad about it because they aren't able to play it since they started GW2 after that but otherwise...

Among the great things about LS1 was that it happened seemingly in real time. It was dynamic and urgent and required you to be ready to change direction at seemingly a moment's notice.

And that was also one of its failings.

• People resent missing out on content, even if it's in the name of a truly living world (e.g. if you're at your mom's birthday party, you can't also be at the Hamilton opening night cast party).
• People, including management at ANet, hate the idea of one-time content — it's almost as much effort as permanent content (there's a shade more wiggle room in terms of quality), but you have to keep adding more.
• People, including line staff at ANet, were annoyed by quality issues, including network/lag glitches, content pushed too quickly, and so on.
• ANet staff, and many players, were exhausted by needing to be "always on" so often. It was a lot of releases in a short period of time, making it difficult for ANet to get a breather and perhaps even more difficult for the player community to catch their breath.

I'd love to see an MMO that offered a truly Living World that was closer to how a real world might work, but (a) the gaming population isn't ready for it, (b) ANet probably isn't ready to deliver it, and © GW2 probably isn't the right game to make it happen.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

I'd love to see an MMO that offered a truly Living World that was closer to how a real world might work, but (a) the gaming population isn't ready for it, (b) ANet probably isn't ready to deliver it, and © GW2 probably isn't the right game to make it happen.

I would argue that the only way to accomplish this is with an MMO that's designed as a sandbox so that the players themselves contribute significantly to the narrative of the game. GW2 wasn't designed that way, which made the whole "living world" concept folly from the get-go.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:I'd love to see an MMO that offered a truly Living World that was closer to how a real world might work, but (a) the gaming population isn't ready for it, (b) ANet probably isn't ready to deliver it, and © GW2 probably isn't the right game to make it happen.

EVE online is out for 14 years already and Elite: Dangerous is sorta there but it is not really an MMO and lacks in the story department. "Living world" in a theme park MMO is impossible. It pretty much requires the game to be a sandbox controlled by players.

I agree that it wouldn't work in GW2 but they also don't have to limit new content to new maps, things like the invasion of steam creatures could still happen like they do with current events too and new NPC's could be added to existing maps that make you feel like things are actually happening or new voice lines for exisiting NPC's so that they can talk about the current threats.I mean whatever they do, they can't possibly keep it the way it is with living world, it's just a new map every 3 Monts with 2-3 Days worth of content and a bunch of grindable stuff. I really like the new maps but nothing much is going on there, I go there to grind stuff and the new maps are always just a spike of interest a realisation that I'm already through the story, a moment of checking through the achievements and then 1 or 2 days of doing the achievements. + 2 hours of unbearable hatred towards whoever designs the new jumping puzzles. I loved core GW2 but at the moment it's almost irrelevant..

Although a living, changing world is cool to watch, it doesn't play well to new players who are getting into the story. And even for established players, not everyone is at the same story part at the same time. So while I will agree that Scarlet's War was very nice, it had its downsides as well. I personally really enjoyed Living World Season 2 and 3 and HoT as well (and hope to enjoy PoF later today).

LS1 was just plain horrible in almost every aspect. The story was total facepalm level, one-time events for just two weeks are bad and making most things an open-world zerg fest was even worse. I'm still calling it the Unliving Story for all those failures. LS3 is lightyears ahead in every aspect.

It's still hard for me to understand how anyone could dislike LS1.. it was the most immersive story telling I've ever had in any game. LS3 is just some grinding with Taimi-centered story.Anyway, I didn't post this thread to bring back season 1, the purpose of this thread was to point out the fact that nothing about The new Living World maps is "Alive". It's just timelocked maps that have no connection to anything outside of the story instances. I would love some sort of effect on the outside world connected to the events on the "living world" maps. For example, when jormag and primordus began to move, they could've easily added some new temporary events to frostgorge sound and.. dunno maybe mount maelstrom. Those events could've been entirely optional with no special loot or anything and would've increased immersion immensly and for F2p players it would be something special as well, like here look, somethings going on, wanna know why jormags minions are in an uproar? check out the current Living World chapters!

Instead we have a bunch of dead maps that are only good for grinding, that isn't what I wanted to be playing when I bought GW2, I still remember when they promised that there wouldn't be any grinding and no holy trinity (I know that was unrealistic to begin with but they did state those things)

Living world was great, but only if you were around to play it from the start. As a new player, I would be turned off if I couldn't play huge portions of the game that already came and gone.

So yea...you're being selfish when you say that it should all be structure like LS1, and that's perfectly fine, but Anet has to think of new players.

@"The Revenant.4970" said:Living world was great, but only if you were around to play it. As a new player, I would be turned off if I couldn't play huge portions of the game that already came and gone.

So yea...you're being selfish when you say that it should all be structure like LS1, and that's perfectly fine, but Anet has to think of new players.

It's not good for veteran players, either. It forces them to perpetually conform to Arenanet's schedule or miss content. It doesn't take too many times of that happening for people to say "screw it, I'm out", and erase any incentive to ever come back to the game. And that's not even going into how wasteful it is from a development perspective.

It was just altogether a bad idea for this game. Thankfully they learned their lesson and the structure we have now is a vast improvement. If only they'd prioritize reformatting LW1 for the new structure, there'd really be nothing left to complain about on this front.

@"The Revenant.4970" said:Living world was great, but only if you were around to play it from the start. As a new player, I would be turned off if I couldn't play huge portions of the game that already came and gone.

So yea...you're being selfish when you say that it should all be structure like LS1, and that's perfectly fine, but Anet has to think of new players.

Well I didn't say I want it all to be structured like that though. I said I want some of those elements back, right now this is a dead game story-wise. Nothing really happens anywhere but on the new maps (except current events, which is great but barely related to what is going on right now)I proposed things that I personally would enjoy, it's not beeing selfish it's expressing my opinion. I would also be very happy if they just added ANYTHING related to the "Living World" events somewhere outside of the new maps, like maybe some primordus/jormag minions spawning all over the relevant maps when they started moving would've been great and no one who wasn't there at that time would've missed anything important but it would've created the feeling that actually something is happening and the dragons are actually a threat. Instead everything related to their awakening only happened in story instances and their respective maps.

And you guys shouldn't generalize either, not everyone quits the game just because he missed some content. I was inactive during the toxic invasion but since I can still see the aftermath I'm nowhere near mad or sad about missing it, it's an amazing experience to me to walk through the map and see the remains of the toxic tower while hearing from my friends what happened around there. It's much cooler then having someone tell you: Hey you should check out draconis mons, there you can actually see Primordus Woooo. Yeah that was amazing but I honestly did never go back there again after I was done. But everytime I see the remains of scarlets drill or the toxic tower or some steam creatures on whichever map, it brings back memories and it's something special for me, not like visiting lake doric for the 9000000th time to gather some superamazingthrilling jade fragements.

I wonder why they did not combine the map "redesigns" with the event system. Just imagine that the 3 versions of Kessex Hills (for example) are combined by a hidden meta. If certain criterias are fullfilled (like number of events completed, time passed, whatever) a special event will spawn that "unmasked" the tower - shifting the map to its second iteration. With all the events which were avaiable during that specific living world episode.

Then when the players completed the meta event of the tower a certain number of times it will explode and we get to the third iteration of kessex hills - the version which we currently have. Plus some "Clean Up Events". And if enough of them are completed ..... you get the idea ....

When I first heard about the event system and the living story I directly thought that is the way they are going to do it.....

@Gomes.5643 said:I wonder why they did not combine the map "redesigns" with the event system. Just imagine that the 3 versions of Kessex Hills (for example) are combined by a hidden meta. If certain criterias are fullfilled (like number of events completed, time passed, whatever) a special event will spawn that "unmasked" the tower - shifting the map to its second iteration. With all the events which were avaiable during that specific living world episode.

Then when the players completed the meta event of the tower a certain number of times it will explode and we get to the third iteration of kessex hills - the version which we currently have. Plus some "Clean Up Events". And if enough of them are completed ..... you get the idea ....

When I first heard about the event system and the living story I directly thought that is the way they are going to do it.....

That would be amazing but I think that would be waaay too much work since you'd have to have all 3 instances of the map running at all times and that kinda defies the reasoning for the mega servers (to have a decently populated map at all times).

I know many people will disagree with me but in my opinion it is not bad if maps change over time. Yes I am well aware that big changes like with Lions Arch and temporary events aren't really something that should be done in an MMORPG but small changes in a map can and should happen, small changes in content can and should happen as long as it doesn't remove a nessessary source for some material or achievement. Although I personally would not mind bigger changes I am well aware that it's not in the common interest so I'll not even bother asking for it. Even some very simple events like: Stop the rampaging Forged on the Maps x, y and z would make me happy, at least then you'd see that there's a god of war threatening all of tyria and not just a few selected maps that happen to be the main story locations :/

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:

That would be amazing but I think that would be waaay too much work since you'd have to have all 3 instances of the map running at all times and that kinda defies the reasoning for the mega servers (to have a decently populated map at all times).

Äh no. Thats the whole point. There are no 3 versions of the same map simultaniously online but only one .... which iterates itself after a certain time.

Ah okay sorry, I misunderstood you. Then that would be pretty much what I'm expecting of something that is beeing called Living World, yes :)