Constructiv discussion about Core Thief and Daredevil in the wake of the Deadeye rework

@Gaile Gray.6029 @"Robert Gee.9246"

Since the thieves currently have the attention of the developers, I wanted to take some time and make this post. I´ve actually already made a similar comment in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39706/consolidated-suggestions-for-de-changes , but that comment met with so much positive feedback, that people actually asked me to create a separate thread for the topic entirely. Sooo.. yeah!

The general consence of this thread is, that I really hope Anet remembers to look at daredevil and core thief aswell while they are going to work on deadeye. Thief has more than one elite spec and even tho daredevil wasnt touched since 2-3 patches into HoT, it has suffered heavyly from old age. Nerfs to GotL, class-auras, food etc. all contributed to a slowly decreasing effectiveness in its capacity as a damaging profession.Once upon a time, we were 2nd place in power dps with ~33-35k. Daredevil never had the burst in PVE like other power classes did (namely ele or dh) and was always much closer to a condi pattern in its dmg application. Designwise Anet themselves confirmed, that power dmg should be spiky and have the drawback of doing 0 dmg, when not hitting an enemy, while condition dmg would be more gradually scaling and consistant, having higher overall dmg but no burst and the advantage of still ticking but decreasing dmg when moving away for a time. Thief always had all the drawbacks of power dmg, but none of the advantages. I am not speaking for PvP or WvW here. I am well aware, that thief can burst players down insanely fast in the right circumstances, but so can other classes aswell and this discussion isnt about that. It´s about PVE mainly and should be considered as such. The exchange for thief and daredevil was decent cc and a relatively easy playstyle, so it was kind of fair to have higher dmg-numbers.The game NEEDS this.It needs classes, that new players can easily pick up and be good with, so they can feel like their efforts are rewarding and they contirbuted to something in an endgame scenario. Thief has a ton of interesting tricks veteran players can apply to any gameplay scenario, but it´s something that isnt required to play a decent part of a group comp as a dps player. One example for this is, when you completely blow peoples mind by doing all the aetherblade fractal puzzels solo in the time your group takes to clear the 2nd trash group. So there is skill-ceiling for this class aswell, but it is separate from simply doing your job. It was something extra that makes u feel "Wow that guy knows what he´s doing". Easy entry classes for dmg-positions in fractals and raids also serve another purpose. I´m actually ashamed as a commander, when i do a training run of any raidboss for people that want to gain an entry to endgame pve and the more experienced players start to flame then, because he/she isnt performing well enough in their dmg, simply because they didnt have had the chance to learn their classes rotations and skills effectively yet.Nowadays, thieves are often sup 30k dps and far behind the most played power classes (weaver, DH, holo). Ele s still top (which is kinda OK now imho). DH and holo are higher aswell and both offer a lot more utility just passively build into their dps kit than DD or DE and are also a bit tankier with significant burst. I personally wouldn´t count one extra dodge bar as a defensive tool, when your entire class mechanism is about managing that extra endurance for your dps modifiers, although i can see some people disagreeing.DE needs fixes, mainly for rifle and propably as an e-spec for ranged combat in general, but PLS ANET dont forget about daredevil. Thief is currently a class with 2 dps-specialisations that are both underperforming and it really deserves better. I´m not saying it´s completely horrible, open world stuff is fine and u can totally make it work in a staple fractal group, but it´s unfair treatment, when one class, that could be very reliable for both veterans and new players alike, is far less relevant in endgame content than all the others. Necro and Revenant players keep complaining. When fleshgolem doenst get to swim we see 2-3 threads on /rGuildwars2 frontpage for several days and while i wont deny these classes deserve a look or 2 aswell they at least find a place, while thieves suffered in silence for a long time too. In general, thieve players have not been very vocal anymore on any changes and just take what they get and try to make it work.

Some constructive ideas i´ve been gatherig contain:Buffing "havoc mastery" form 7% to 10% - This properly rewards managing to stay in the dangerzone, also round numbers are prettierGiving the revealed debuff on "Weakening charge" - Daredevil isnt about stealth, it´s about being in your face and open. This change will give it some more syngergy with deadly arts and "revealed trainging", without leaving the thematic, offering a nice 200 power boost to your dpsMaybe buff both the autoattacks dmg and the dmg from weakening charge a bit aswell.Give us the planned interaction between quickness and staff 5 from ages ago, which sadly never made it back into the game.Take a look on a few of the currently underused utility skills and buff them either in usage or direct dmg. Having to rely on a poisons for the currently maximum dmg on a power build isnt very intuitive.Alacrity affecting Initiative.The new stolen skills were a very welcome and nice addition!While it might be wishful, thieves also suffer from a lack of options in their weapons and some of the sets have very mixed skills that dont quite feel like they belong together (D/D is mainly power dmg, but the #3 and the dagger trait lean towards condi; P/P is also mainly power but its sneak-attack is condition aswell; Shortbow is actually a very usefull utility weapon, but offers an opening for a condtition playstile it doenst really deliver)

I´ve tried to put my arguements politely and based on evidence i´ve witnessed from the last 2 years of gameplay. I hope i could get my points across, some feedback would be very appreciated. Pls keep up the good work, even tho the DE rework met some murky waters. I enjoy GW2 a lot and love the beauty in it´s art and the heart the devs put into it.

On a closing note: We have the developers attention now, finally. Pls mind this and dont think the internets anonymity entitles you to say whatever hateful comment you want without consequences! I completely understand people getting passionate about something they love, but pls try to be respectful and constructive, as we might have an actual chance now to make a difference.

I´m leaving some space here to edit at a later time, as I´m sure there are other points i´ve thought about, but didnt have the time include or just didnt remember right now.

Alacrity affecting Initiative.This. So much this.Thief has allways been in a rough spot. And i dont think its a Guild Wars problem per se. Its a general branding problem of Thief style classes in MMO.They are "sneaky" and "mobile" which translates badly into any game where fights take longer than a minute or 2. And due to the "Everyone can do everything" nature of guildwars Thiefs have to compete a lot more to feel relevant.

I think Thief would maybe need like a "Leave and reenter Combat" Mechanic/Style to both feel and be relevant, which i think stealth was suppose to be (and actually is in PvP content)But thats just wishfull thinking i guess.

My biggest issue after the Deadeye rework is something I commonly see in GW2: lack of identity.

Beforehand, even under a mountain of issues, there was the fantasy of a "sniper" in there. Someone sitting there. Waiting. Patiently. Building up advantage, not spamming 15 attacks every second, then striking for a huge hit out of nowhere at large range.

The new deadeye feels a lot more "GW2-y". Spam spam spam, with lots of secondary and tertiary effects and weirdly complicated interactions between mechanics which should factually be super simple but end up not being as a result.

For the game it would be just best, if the Thief gets a complete redesign.Daredevil was from begin on just a direct sidegrade of the Agility Core Thief, which got partwise dumbed down, just so that Daredevil receives a reason for existance.This dumbdown needs to get reverted and DE is just another offensive ranged sidegrade ..Why should have the Thief 2 offensive sidegrade E-Specs, when it would have been much better for the game, if the second E-Spec would be rather a supportive ranged class, so that Thief gets finally better a group support, to have a spec, that fills up finally this gap for the Thief Class.

Staff, Rifle (as Merge with Harpoon Gun) and Offhand Sword should be all baseline Weapons rather for Core Thief. The Specs should be based on Longbow and Torch.DE is nothign atm but just a wannabe sniper, that should have found tbh never its way into the game - but now its there , now it needs to be integrated so that it fits to the identity of the thief and that is something, that the current DE doesn't do for me , because it feels like a bad combination of just a simple gunslinger and a stalker/shadow mage kind of gameplay, that doen't fit together... snipers using black magic as utility skills..yeah--right, very immersive - not

@Orpheal.8263 said:

I have to disagree on this. E-specs where never meant to be straight upgrades for the classes, but sidegrades as u put it. They are meant to offer a different way to play the game with your class. Daredevil looses some stealth and gained mobility and sustained dmg with cleave, something core thief never had. And deadeye plays heavily with stealth and gets access to a long ranged weapon, which it also never had.It’s true they nerfed acrobatics and the new deadeye isn’t really fleshed out, but calling for a complete class rework isn’t really justified, when the core class by design doesn’t need it. Mesmer got a rework because phantasms where unintuitive and discouraged you from using shatters, the core mechanic.Also they kinda tried to give thief some support with deadeye and explode plasma, but 10-man 25 might is done by druid much easier and with less opportunity cost.

Thief issues I see include:

1. Being undertuned in terms of personal dps (e.g. staff DD having a dmg-pattern of a condi class but all the drawbacks of a power class)
2. Support from deadeye being redundant and having too high of an opportunity cost (old PS warrior had decent personal dps and might, PLUS banners, cc and EA for example)
3. An abundance of utility skills are never used or have a lack of usage.
4. The few weapons available to the core class often lack options or clear identities and strengths. Thieves make due with what they have

@"Bramymond.7689" said:Buffing "havoc mastery" form 7% to 10% - This properly rewards managing to stay in the dangerzone, also round numbers are prettierLove round numbersGiving the revealed debuff on "Weakening charge" - Daredevil isnt about stealth, it´s about being in your face and open. This change will give it some more syngergy with deadly arts and "revealed trainging", without leaving the thematic, offering a nice 200 power boost to your dpsLOVE this. I've always wanted to use Revealed Training, but most builds have basically no reason to bring stealth.Take a look on a few of the currently underused utility skills and buff them either in usage or direct dmg. Having to rely on a poisons for the currently maximum dmg on a power build isnt very intuitive.Agreed

Excellent comments.

Some constructive ideas i´ve been gatherig contain:_Buffing "havoc mastery" form 7% to 10% - This properly rewards managing to stay in the dangerzone, also round numbers are prettier

Agree!

_While it might be wishful, thieves also suffer from a lack of options in their weapons and some of the sets have very mixed skills that dont quite feel like they belong together (D/D is mainly power dmg, but the #3 and the dagger trait lean towards condi; P/P is also mainly power but its sneak-attack is condition aswell;

Agree - There is a lack of playable options. I want to play Power D/D but I usually feel pressured to play Power D/P since it's "Meta". And the other option is play Condi D/D and spam 3. I enjoy this game because it should promote skill gameplay and not spam a button which is why I kind of stay away from Condi D/D. I wish they either change the 3 skill(death blossom) to either have a shorter animation so we can use it as an actual dodge and lower the condi damage on it OR remove it for a teleport type skill.

I think Thief suffers from very big identity crisis down to it's core damage dealing enough to even be reflected in his class runes:"(1): +25 Precision(2): +35 Condition Damage(3): +50 Precision(4): +65 Condition Damage(5): +100 Precision(6): When striking your foe from behind or the side gain +10% damage."

Most of the stats are good for condition damage, but last one due to how it's worded is most likely flat damage. So which is it Anet? Is this a hybrid? Then where's a Power, precision/ferocity/condition damage/expertise stat spread? The same is with weapons, I think due to initiative general roles of weapons weren't as well looked at, since you could spam any skill.

Speaking of initiative, I loved it's idea and almost loved the implementation, the thought of potential of the class is what led me to buy the game. Sadly as is, initiative only holds back thief's potential rather than enhance the gameplay and uniqueness of thief's profession.

@Bankrotas.8215 said:

Most of the stats are good for condition damage, but last one due to how it's worded is most likely flat damage. So which is it Anet? Is this a hybrid? Then where's a Power, precision/ferocity/condition damage/expertise stat spread?

Well.. there is grieving.Not sure if that´s any good, except for firebrand it´s almost always better to specialize.

One of the weaknesses of Thief is that, ultimately, we are pretty simple to play. Our Condition build is particularly bad for this and so is Power Staff Daredevil. I find the current iteration of Deadeye to at least be a little bit more involving to ensure that there is overlap between Mark referesh, revealed wearing off and Assassin's Signet and Shadow Flare being up while positioning is good to maximise modifiers.

The simplicity of Thief stems from the initiative problem - we'll just hit what gives the most DPS as illustrated well by the failure of the reworked Malice and Maleficent Seven traits to encourage a Malice building rotation.

Daredevil tried to resolve this by active modifiers applied through bound and having less than 100% endurance. This is a start, but Thief needs to have reasons to change the buttons it presses to get out the most damage.

This could be done by adding modifiers on weapon swap. Swapping to rifle might change the next two Death's Judgement to hit harder and pierce, swapping to staff might improve the damage of Vault greatly, swapping to mainhand dagger could further modify Backstab, swapping to pistol/pistol could cause Unload to Ricochet (yeah, I'm playing that old Thief favourite here) for 5 seconds. This would also allow for planned burst that may be more comparable to other professions while increasing rotation complexity and encouraging weapon swapping during encounters and as a response to certain things happening. Adds spawning on Xera? A Daredevil might switch from dagger/dagger to staff to cleave adds with improved Vault. A Deadeye might switch from dagger/dagger to pistol/pistol to Ricochet Unload. Or other combinations could happen. Suddenly Thief isn't as hindered by initiative and has a complex priority rotation depending on situation and weapon swapping becomes more useful for Thief.

The other option would be through procs which are popular for increasing the complexity of Rogue like classes in other games and overcoming their own initiative-like problems. An example proc for Daredevil might be Weakening Charge having a chance to greatly increase the damage of the next Vault or Dust Strike. With accompanying UI elements displaying beside the character to alert the player of a proc occurring, this would also play into the strengths of the more action combat orientated system that Guild Wars 2 has.

Comments for PvE only.

Stealth is only wanted for one thing in most PvE groups - skipping trash mobs to make runs quicker. Stop trying to this tie other mechanics.Give us access to groups buffs that are wanted by groups. This could be achieved through a re-work of our venoms and venon sharing mechanic.Up the damage across the board so that we are competitive with other class benchmarks.
New stolen skills that actually feel impactful and worth using. The Deadeye re-work got this part right.

@stone cold.8609 said:

New stolen skills that actually feel impactful and worth using. The Deadeye re-work got this part right.

Minor point, but Thief and Daredevil getting access to Stolen Skills wasn't part of the Deadeye rework. The Deadeye rework also reduced the effect of what was previously Peripheral Vision boon sharing.

Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

One of the weaknesses of Thief is that, ultimately, we are pretty simple to play. Our Condition build is particularly bad for this and so is Power Staff Daredevil. I find the current iteration of Deadeye to at least be a little bit more involving to ensure that there is overlap between Mark referesh, revealed wearing off and Assassin's Signet and Shadow Flare being up while positioning is good to maximise modifiers.

With Condition builds, there more than one and the p/d version is generally superior to the D/D version. P/D is no more easier to play then is d/p power

The simplicity of Thief stems from the initiative problem - we'll just hit what gives the most DPS as illustrated well by the failure of the reworked Malice and Maleficent Seven traits to encourage a Malice building rotation.

This is not so much simplicity as it is a "choice" thing. People will tend to CHOOSE what they feel is easiest. This does not translate into what is optimal for the time unless you fighting something that is static such as an AI. In that situation all classes do the same thing, that is repeat a given rotation to maximize damage.

Daredevil tried to resolve this by active modifiers applied through bound and having less than 100% endurance. This is a start, but Thief needs to have reasons to change the buttons it presses to get out the most damage.

No they do not and this why there an INI system. Distributing damage across multiple skills is pointless. The reason certain builds have more active play in the number of skills used is not because skill 2 might do more damage then skill 3. It because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better. Added to that with weapon sets shared between condition and power , there will always be skills favorable to the given build type. IE d/d a perfect example. If in power you are rarely use #3. If in Condition you are rarely using #2.

This could be done by adding modifiers on weapon swap. Swapping to rifle might change the next two Death's Judgement to hit harder and pierce, swapping to staff might improve the damage of Vault greatly, swapping to mainhand dagger could further modify Backstab, swapping to pistol/pistol could cause Unload to [Ricochet](

I think what is need as far as weaponswaps with thief is no cooldown.

The other option would be through procs which are popular for increasing the complexity of Rogue like classes in other games and overcoming their own initiative-like problems. An example proc for Daredevil might be Weakening Charge having a chance to greatly increase the damage of the next Vault or Dust Strike. With accompanying UI elements displaying beside the character to alert the player of a proc occurring, this would also play into the strengths of the more action combat orientated system that Guild Wars 2 has.

This already happens but people do not use the skills because the payback not as good as using that INI for damage first and foremost. Again this people choosing the less then optimal. As example p #2 adds vuln and you can stack vuln in a hurry. This means your p#3 does more damage. If I can do 10% more condition or power damage on my bleeds or on my unload why would I not? Weakning charge already applies weakness . Weakness is a powerful condition. That is reason enough to use it as is dust strike.

When you suggest more of these skills act in a way so that more damage is output, you are making the entire interaction about damage and nothing else. Blisnding an opponent, immobbing them, weakening them , making them slower all have a place in the game and are all very useful in an engagement. Again that a person CHOOSES to focus just on damage skills shows too great a focus on DPS which comes to us from Raids and peoples fighting AI.

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

I do not use SOA in my condition builds.

I only use Shadowstep in one build albeit I may put it back in a second. I currently have 5 seperate thieves I use one a regular basis and one that is a testing build. SOA and Shadowstep are certainly two of the most commonly used but they hardly must haves.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

So it's used by 90% of build but not yours. What's your point? If you had them on F skills you wouldn't use it?

@"babazhook.6805" said:

This already happens but people do not use the skills because the payback not as good as using that INI for damage first and foremost. Again this people choosing the less then optimal. As example p #2 adds vuln and you can stack vuln in a hurry. This means your p#3 does more damage. If I can do 10% more condition or power damage on my bleeds or on my unload why would I not? Weakning charge already applies weakness . Weakness is a powerful condition. That is reason enough to use it as is dust strike.

When you suggest more of these skills act in a way so that more damage is output, you are making the entire interaction about damage and nothing else. Blisnding an opponent, immobbing them, weakening them , making them slower all have a place in the game and are all very useful in an engagement. Again that a person CHOOSES to focus just on damage skills shows too great a focus on DPS which comes to us from Raids and peoples fighting AI.

That is all well and good but none of that will help improve thief in instanced PvE like raids and high tier fractals. You can dismiss it as "fighting AI" all you want, but the PvE game modes are considerably more popular that any variant of PvP.

In those situations, vulnerability is already stacked, blinds are not helpful unless you are struggling to the extent of wiping on trash and you are going to run into the problem of wanting to use only the one ability that deals the most damage since that is your primary role as a DPS player.

No they do not and this why there an INI system. Distributing damage across multiple skills is pointless. The reason certain builds have more active play in the number of skills used is not because skill 2 might do more damage then skill 3. It because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better. Added to that with weapon sets shared between condition and power , there will always be skills favorable to the given build type. IE d/d a perfect example. If in power you are rarely use #3. If in Condition you are rarely using #2.

But this is bad design, surely you can see that? A rotation involving weapon swapping and procs would be far more engaging than just spamming away at one button. Also, your point about "because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better" is completely untrue in any sort of organised PvE environment since other people bring those debuffs and effects and bring them much better. The only valuable self-modifying skill we have currently is Assassin's Signet. There is no modifier on Weakening Charge or Dust Strike that directly improves the damage of your next Vault, for example.

Honestly, I'm not sure on the point you are trying to make with your response. You say we press a variety of buttons (due to secondary effects which actually don't matter in any organised PvE) but then argue that we don't and we shouldn't? I'm a bit lost.

The best way to handle fixing weapon set viability would require a lot of new skills and a substantial number of reworks.

Dual Wield skills should never have been made into just skill 3 as it creates too many "weak" kits while having the dominant ones be used as the point for balance of the class, also preventing direct buffs.

Put Dual Wield skills on 2-4 and all you need to hinge balance around are skills 1 and 5 which are typically identity skills for each respective weapon and interplay with their main hand counterparts (CnD/BP and Stab/Sneak Attack).

This way there's way more granularity to make tweaks that make sense and give the less-dominant kits more/better answers without affecting the dominant ones.

@"Orpheal.8263" said:For the game it would be just best, if the Thief gets a complete redesign.Daredevil was from begin on just a direct sidegrade of the Agility Core Thief, which got partwise dumbed down, just so that Daredevil receives a reason for existance.This dumbdown needs to get reverted and DE is just another offensive ranged sidegrade ..Why should have the Thief 2 offensive sidegrade E-Specs, when it would have been much better for the game, if the second E-Spec would be rather a supportive ranged class, so that Thief gets finally better a group support, to have a spec, that fills up finally this gap for the Thief Class.

Staff, Rifle (as Merge with Harpoon Gun) and Offhand Sword should be all baseline Weapons rather for Core Thief. The Specs should be based on Longbow and Torch.DE is nothign atm but just a wannabe sniper, that should have found tbh never its way into the game - but now its there , now it needs to be integrated so that it fits to the identity of the thief and that is something, that the current DE doesn't do for me , because it feels like a bad combination of just a simple gunslinger and a stalker/shadow mage kind of gameplay, that doen't fit together... snipers using black magic as utility skills..yeah--right, very immersive - not

Elite specs are supposed to be sidegrades. I don't really know how many times I need to post this link:https://np.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3opycg/arenanet_unveil_the_future_of_competitive_guild/cvzfp12/

People just don't seem to understand that OHKO sniper is a horrible concept for the game and does not fit this game's style, especially in PvP. Design affects PvP more than it does in PvE and the stealth-sniper concept is horrible for that content. As for blackish shadow magic... thief already has it. It teleports all over the place and a ton of skills have inky, black particle effects. To be honest, if they weren't labeled cantrips I don't think there would even be an argument here. ANet is just reusing skill types for the sake of runes to give synergy to more builds outside of the elite spec long-term. It was actually the basis for my proposed Stygian Hunter Form for the early DE writeup I did back near when HoT launched.

As for supportive ranged spec, that was the entirety of the proposal of what I made the original Deadeye about - except its support came from playing hyper-aggressively and keeping up damage rather than just sitting back casting heal spells.

Bad design choices and powercreep are rampant and it's only obvious because the thief's core mechanics do not scale well with it all.

Good day Anet & forum viewers. I haven't posted anything on the official forums in years but with the recent discussions on the Deadeye changes and seeing how ANet appears to be monitoring the spec I would like to offer my experience with the class and feedback.

I've been playing Thief since launch. It is my main even with all the drastic changes it has seen. I played Thief to a high level in PvE content as I use to sell Arah runs so I knew the spec pretty well to adapt to the situations. I also run raids from time to time when there's an available run with their introduction in HoT.

The class needs help. The biggest argument I support is the fact that a class that's historically known to be a selfish damage class is not able to compete against the other classes that have dominated the area for years should be the balance team's number one priority. The Deadeye spec given to us in PoF doesn't help with the issue since it's a long range single target class and largely ignores the core thief specialization. That being said, I still think DE should be a high damage spec since the majority of its damage is focused on one target. Alongside a buff to numbers I welcome seeing supportive features added to Thief to let them stand out in group scenarios. If the damage can't be buffed to an acceptable level perhaps give their ability to mark targets be a squad wide buff for extra damage is something to further consider.

Another issue is alacrity being not nearly as impactful for Thieves compared to other classes mainly due to the nature of instant skills that require initiative. As some have pointed out, an easy solution would be to allow initiative be sped up from alacrity. This should also help boost the Thief class damage output with quicker skill casts.

Next, I would like to take a look back at core thief. I would love to see some of the signets reworked or relocated to the trait lines. For example, it doesn't feel good that Thief has to rely on Power Signet for passive power. Passive stat gains removes options. Unfortunately since there are so many passive traits that increase damage in other classes the Thief needs to be raised to the same level as other classes (e.g. elementalists damage increase thru traits).

A big problem is Thief rotation. I would suggest looking back at the original Thief gameplay of positional requirement for higher damage. Back in vanilla a Thief would need to be in flank position if they wanted to do extra damage thru crits. You could bring this back to help balance the generally easier rotation thief have with more positional requirement to yield higher damage output. This can also differentiate between an average and a good thief player. Also, to solve flank issues on static bosses that only face you, you could make the sides be considered the flank.

I really love the class and while I come back to the game from time to time I just think it's always a few steps away from achieving greatness. Anet, you guys have so much potential in this product and this is just one facet where the thief gameplay can win not just me but many thief players back with a few changes. I do hope Robert and the rest of the team take a good pass on the class, it's been needing love for a while now. Thanks and have a wonderful day.

@cyberwolf.5830 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

You stated that thief MUST Take Shadowstep and SOA. I used myself as an example to state that not the case. You are not 90 percent of the thieves. You represent yourself. I can tell at a glance how many Thieves I meet in WvW use SOA and it not 90 percent. Indeed if you look to Metabattle 90 percent of the builds there do not even use SOA and Shadowstep together.

But this is bad design, surely you can see that? A rotation involving weapon swapping and procs would be far more engaging than just spamming away at one button. Also, your point about "because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better" is completely untrue in any sort of organised PvE environment since other people bring those debuffs and effects and bring them much better. The only valuable self-modifying skill we have currently is Assassin's Signet. There is no modifier on Weakening Charge or Dust Strike that directly improves the damage of your next Vault, for example.

You continue to focus on Damage and DPS as being the only reason why one would want to use a given skill. This tells me your singular focus is PVE and raids or fractals where people treat DPS like a religion.

I use Weakening charge and Dust Strike on Stuff to inhibit the abilities of an opponent to function in Combat. This allows me to survive longer, When they are blinded I can attack freely. When they are weakened I will take much less damage and impact their endurance regen. I have PLENTY of damage available to me in my Vault and other attacks and more is not required.

When you are speaking to fighting AI scripts it NOT the same as fighting another player. AI scripts are exactly that and those that prefer that mode get tunnel vision when tha t all they are used to. AI opponents are hundreds of thousands of hit points which must be bled to 0 to "win" . This does not occur in PvP or Wvw when fighting other players. How I fight a champion when taking a keep is NOTHING like how I fight another player because the champion even with its higher hit points is not all that dangerous.

There then a common suggestion that skill tied to the number of different buttons pressed. Again a fallacy. When one is only fighting an AI script one responds with the optimal rotation which does not take a lot to learn. Pressing 1 then 2 and three over and over again because 1d and 2 boost the damage done by 3 is NOT more skilled. It is just as repetitive as pressing 3 and 3 and 3. If the only goal is increasing DPS against an AN AI script then all skills will seem useless unless they add to DPS. This is not a function of "skilled gameplay". Again when fighting a champion in a keep I use less of SKILLED gameplay and focus more on my DPS skills.

Dust Strike , headshot , Weakening charge and other such skills as used in PVP and WvW where one fights real players become more used the more skillful the enemy. If the Enemies every move can be predicted or anticipated (such as one that just spams a single skill) , then they are easier to counter without using those other skills. If the enemy is reacting to your moves, anticipating what you will do next, trying to bait you and counter with the entire pool of skills s/he has available then you will find yourself relying on your other skills more.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

The only one not using it is RAID builds because there's someone else removing conditions and it doesn't matter because nobody wants thief in raid anyway. All builds for wvw, pvp and open world use it. I'm not sure which metabattle are you looking at ^^

@cyberwolf.5830 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

There 22 builds listed on metabattle main page thief. 7 use both Shadowstep and SOA.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Thief

@"babazhook.6805" said:

But this is bad design, surely you can see that? A rotation involving weapon swapping and procs would be far more engaging than just spamming away at one button. Also, your point about "because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better" is completely untrue in any sort of organised PvE environment since other people bring those debuffs and effects and bring them much better. The only valuable self-modifying skill we have currently is Assassin's Signet. There is no modifier on Weakening Charge or Dust Strike that directly improves the damage of your next Vault, for example.

i dont disagree with u but this thread was opened to mainly Focus on the PvE functionality of thief gameplay in high end Content

so u should indeed not mix it with pvp or wvw because thats not what this discussion is focused on.