Constructiv discussion about Core Thief and Daredevil in the wake of the Deadeye rework — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions Thief

Constructiv discussion about Core Thief and Daredevil in the wake of the Deadeye rework

Bramymond.7689Bramymond.7689 Member ✭✭
edited May 25, 2018 in Thief

@Gaile Gray.6029 @Robert Gee.9246

Since the thieves currently have the attention of the developers, I wanted to take some time and make this post. I´ve actually already made a similar comment in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39706/consolidated-suggestions-for-de-changes , but that comment met with so much positive feedback, that people actually asked me to create a separate thread for the topic entirely. Sooo.. yeah!

The general consence of this thread is, that I really hope Anet remembers to look at daredevil and core thief aswell while they are going to work on deadeye. Thief has more than one elite spec and even tho daredevil wasnt touched since 2-3 patches into HoT, it has suffered heavyly from old age. Nerfs to GotL, class-auras, food etc. all contributed to a slowly decreasing effectiveness in its capacity as a damaging profession.
Once upon a time, we were 2nd place in power dps with ~33-35k. Daredevil never had the burst in PVE like other power classes did (namely ele or dh) and was always much closer to a condi pattern in its dmg application. Designwise Anet themselves confirmed, that power dmg should be spiky and have the drawback of doing 0 dmg, when not hitting an enemy, while condition dmg would be more gradually scaling and consistant, having higher overall dmg but no burst and the advantage of still ticking but decreasing dmg when moving away for a time. Thief always had all the drawbacks of power dmg, but none of the advantages. I am not speaking for PvP or WvW here. I am well aware, that thief can burst players down insanely fast in the right circumstances, but so can other classes aswell and this discussion isnt about that. It´s about PVE mainly and should be considered as such. The exchange for thief and daredevil was decent cc and a relatively easy playstyle, so it was kind of fair to have higher dmg-numbers.
The game NEEDS this.
It needs classes, that new players can easily pick up and be good with, so they can feel like their efforts are rewarding and they contirbuted to something in an endgame scenario. Thief has a ton of interesting tricks veteran players can apply to any gameplay scenario, but it´s something that isnt required to play a decent part of a group comp as a dps player. One example for this is, when you completely blow peoples mind by doing all the aetherblade fractal puzzels solo in the time your group takes to clear the 2nd trash group. So there is skill-ceiling for this class aswell, but it is separate from simply doing your job. It was something extra that makes u feel "Wow that guy knows what he´s doing". Easy entry classes for dmg-positions in fractals and raids also serve another purpose. I´m actually ashamed as a commander, when i do a training run of any raidboss for people that want to gain an entry to endgame pve and the more experienced players start to flame then, because he/she isnt performing well enough in their dmg, simply because they didnt have had the chance to learn their classes rotations and skills effectively yet.
Nowadays, thieves are often sup 30k dps and far behind the most played power classes (weaver, DH, holo). Ele s still top (which is kinda OK now imho). DH and holo are higher aswell and both offer a lot more utility just passively build into their dps kit than DD or DE and are also a bit tankier with significant burst. I personally wouldn´t count one extra dodge bar as a defensive tool, when your entire class mechanism is about managing that extra endurance for your dps modifiers, although i can see some people disagreeing.
DE needs fixes, mainly for rifle and propably as an e-spec for ranged combat in general, but PLS ANET dont forget about daredevil. Thief is currently a class with 2 dps-specialisations that are both underperforming and it really deserves better. I´m not saying it´s completely horrible, open world stuff is fine and u can totally make it work in a staple fractal group, but it´s unfair treatment, when one class, that could be very reliable for both veterans and new players alike, is far less relevant in endgame content than all the others. Necro and Revenant players keep complaining. When fleshgolem doenst get to swim we see 2-3 threads on /rGuildwars2 frontpage for several days and while i wont deny these classes deserve a look or 2 aswell they at least find a place, while thieves suffered in silence for a long time too. In general, thieve players have not been very vocal anymore on any changes and just take what they get and try to make it work.

Some constructive ideas i´ve been gatherig contain:
Buffing "havoc mastery" form 7% to 10% - This properly rewards managing to stay in the dangerzone, also round numbers are prettier
Giving the revealed debuff on "Weakening charge" - Daredevil isnt about stealth, it´s about being in your face and open. This change will give it some more syngergy with deadly arts and "revealed trainging", without leaving the thematic, offering a nice 200 power boost to your dps
Maybe buff both the autoattacks dmg and the dmg from weakening charge a bit aswell.
Give us the planned interaction between quickness and staff 5 from ages ago, which sadly never made it back into the game.
Take a look on a few of the currently underused utility skills and buff them either in usage or direct dmg. Having to rely on a poisons for the currently maximum dmg on a power build isnt very intuitive.

Alacrity affecting Initiative.
The new stolen skills were a very welcome and nice addition!
While it might be wishful, thieves also suffer from a lack of options in their weapons and some of the sets have very mixed skills that dont quite feel like they belong together (D/D is mainly power dmg, but the #3 and the dagger trait lean towards condi; P/P is also mainly power but its sneak-attack is condition aswell; Shortbow is actually a very usefull utility weapon, but offers an opening for a condtition playstile it doenst really deliver)

I´ve tried to put my arguements politely and based on evidence i´ve witnessed from the last 2 years of gameplay. I hope i could get my points across, some feedback would be very appreciated. Pls keep up the good work, even tho the DE rework met some murky waters. I enjoy GW2 a lot and love the beauty in it´s art and the heart the devs put into it.

On a closing note: We have the developers attention now, finally. Pls mind this and dont think the internets anonymity entitles you to say whatever hateful comment you want without consequences! I completely understand people getting passionate about something they love, but pls try to be respectful and constructive, as we might have an actual chance now to make a difference.

I´m leaving some space here to edit at a later time, as I´m sure there are other points i´ve thought about, but didnt have the time include or just didnt remember right now.

Comments

  • Grissman.2845Grissman.2845 Member ✭✭

    Alacrity affecting Initiative.

    This. So much this.
    Thief has allways been in a rough spot. And i dont think its a Guild Wars problem per se. Its a general branding problem of Thief style classes in MMO.
    They are "sneaky" and "mobile" which translates badly into any game where fights take longer than a minute or 2. And due to the "Everyone can do everything" nature of guildwars Thiefs have to compete a lot more to feel relevant.
    I think Thief would maybe need like a "Leave and reenter Combat" Mechanic/Style to both feel and be relevant, which i think stealth was suppose to be (and actually is in PvP content)
    But thats just wishfull thinking i guess.

    Born of graves and left below
    Painted ashes, painted snow
    When the dark awakens
    Fires of our hope are getting low.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭

    For the game it would be just best, if the Thief gets a complete redesign.
    Daredevil was from begin on just a direct sidegrade of the Agility Core Thief, which got partwise dumbed down, just so that Daredevil receives a reason for existance.
    This dumbdown needs to get reverted and DE is just another offensive ranged sidegrade ..
    Why should have the Thief 2 offensive sidegrade E-Specs, when it would have been much better for the game, if the second E-Spec would be rather a supportive ranged class, so that Thief gets finally better a group support, to have a spec, that fills up finally this gap for the Thief Class.

    Staff, Rifle (as Merge with Harpoon Gun) and Offhand Sword should be all baseline Weapons rather for Core Thief. The Specs should be based on Longbow and Torch.
    DE is nothign atm but just a wannabe sniper, that should have found tbh never its way into the game - but now its there , now it needs to be integrated so that it fits to the identity of the thief and that is something, that the current DE doesn't do for me , because it feels like a bad combination of just a simple gunslinger and a stalker/shadow mage kind of gameplay, that doen't fit together... snipers using black magic as utility skills..yeah--right, very immersive - not


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
    I'm the proud Origin of the Elite Specializations Concept (Sub Classes) through the last made CDI Project.


  • Bramymond.7689Bramymond.7689 Member ✭✭
    edited May 16, 2018

    I have to disagree on this. E-specs where never meant to be straight upgrades for the classes, but sidegrades as u put it. They are meant to offer a different way to play the game with your class. Daredevil looses some stealth and gained mobility and sustained dmg with cleave, something core thief never had. And deadeye plays heavily with stealth and gets access to a long ranged weapon, which it also never had.
    It’s true they nerfed acrobatics and the new deadeye isn’t really fleshed out, but calling for a complete class rework isn’t really justified, when the core class by design doesn’t need it. Mesmer got a rework because phantasms where unintuitive and discouraged you from using shatters, the core mechanic.
    Also they kinda tried to give thief some support with deadeye and explode plasma, but 10-man 25 might is done by druid much easier and with less opportunity cost.

  • Bramymond.7689Bramymond.7689 Member ✭✭
    edited May 16, 2018

    Thief issues I see include:

    1. Being undertuned in terms of personal dps (e.g. staff DD having a dmg-pattern of a condi class but all the drawbacks of a power class)
    2. Support from deadeye being redundant and having too high of an opportunity cost (old PS warrior had decent personal dps and might, PLUS banners, cc and EA for example)
    3. An abundance of utility skills are never used or have a lack of usage.
    4. The few weapons available to the core class often lack options or clear identities and strengths. Thieves make due with what they have
  • relt.6189relt.6189 Member

    @Bramymond.7689 said:
    _Buffing "havoc mastery" form 7% to 10% - This properly rewards managing to stay in the dangerzone, also round numbers are prettier

    Love round numbers

    Giving the revealed debuff on "Weakening charge" - Daredevil isnt about stealth, it´s about being in your face and open. This change will give it some more syngergy with deadly arts and "revealed trainging", without leaving the thematic, offering a nice 200 power boost to your dps

    LOVE this. I've always wanted to use Revealed Training, but most builds have basically no reason to bring stealth.

    Take a look on a few of the currently underused utility skills and buff them either in usage or direct dmg. Having to rely on a poisons for the currently maximum dmg on a power build isnt very intuitive._

    Agreed

    Excellent comments.

  • Xenji.4907Xenji.4907 Member ✭✭✭

    >

    Some constructive ideas i´ve been gatherig contain:
    _Buffing "havoc mastery" form 7% to 10% - This properly rewards managing to stay in the dangerzone, also round numbers are prettier

    Agree!

    >

    _While it might be wishful, thieves also suffer from a lack of options in their weapons and some of the sets have very mixed skills that dont quite feel like they belong together (D/D is mainly power dmg, but the #3 and the dagger trait lean towards condi; P/P is also mainly power but its sneak-attack is condition aswell;

    Agree - There is a lack of playable options. I want to play Power D/D but I usually feel pressured to play Power D/P since it's "Meta". And the other option is play Condi D/D and spam 3. I enjoy this game because it should promote skill gameplay and not spam a button which is why I kind of stay away from Condi D/D. I wish they either change the 3 skill(death blossom) to either have a shorter animation so we can use it as an actual dodge and lower the condi damage on it OR remove it for a teleport type skill.

  • I think Thief suffers from very big identity crisis down to it's core damage dealing enough to even be reflected in his class runes:
    "(1): +25 Precision
    (2): +35 Condition Damage
    (3): +50 Precision
    (4): +65 Condition Damage
    (5): +100 Precision
    (6): When striking your foe from behind or the side gain +10% damage."

    Most of the stats are good for condition damage, but last one due to how it's worded is most likely flat damage. So which is it Anet? Is this a hybrid? Then where's a Power, precision/ferocity/condition damage/expertise stat spread? The same is with weapons, I think due to initiative general roles of weapons weren't as well looked at, since you could spam any skill.

    Speaking of initiative, I loved it's idea and almost loved the implementation, the thought of potential of the class is what led me to buy the game. Sadly as is, initiative only holds back thief's potential rather than enhance the gameplay and uniqueness of thief's profession.

  • Bramymond.7689Bramymond.7689 Member ✭✭
    edited May 18, 2018

    @Bankrotas.8215 said:

    Most of the stats are good for condition damage, but last one due to how it's worded is most likely flat damage. So which is it Anet? Is this a hybrid? Then where's a Power, precision/ferocity/condition damage/expertise stat spread?

    Well.. there is grieving.
    Not sure if that´s any good, except for firebrand it´s almost always better to specialize.

  • Lucinellia.9247Lucinellia.9247 Member ✭✭✭

    One of the weaknesses of Thief is that, ultimately, we are pretty simple to play. Our Condition build is particularly bad for this and so is Power Staff Daredevil. I find the current iteration of Deadeye to at least be a little bit more involving to ensure that there is overlap between Mark referesh, revealed wearing off and Assassin's Signet and Shadow Flare being up while positioning is good to maximise modifiers.

    The simplicity of Thief stems from the initiative problem - we'll just hit what gives the most DPS as illustrated well by the failure of the reworked Malice and Maleficent Seven traits to encourage a Malice building rotation.

    Daredevil tried to resolve this by active modifiers applied through bound and having less than 100% endurance. This is a start, but Thief needs to have reasons to change the buttons it presses to get out the most damage.

    This could be done by adding modifiers on weapon swap. Swapping to rifle might change the next two Death's Judgement to hit harder and pierce, swapping to staff might improve the damage of Vault greatly, swapping to mainhand dagger could further modify Backstab, swapping to pistol/pistol could cause Unload to Ricochet (yeah, I'm playing that old Thief favourite here) for 5 seconds. This would also allow for planned burst that may be more comparable to other professions while increasing rotation complexity and encouraging weapon swapping during encounters and as a response to certain things happening. Adds spawning on Xera? A Daredevil might switch from dagger/dagger to staff to cleave adds with improved Vault. A Deadeye might switch from dagger/dagger to pistol/pistol to Ricochet Unload. Or other combinations could happen. Suddenly Thief isn't as hindered by initiative and has a complex priority rotation depending on situation and weapon swapping becomes more useful for Thief.

    The other option would be through procs which are popular for increasing the complexity of Rogue like classes in other games and overcoming their own initiative-like problems. An example proc for Daredevil might be Weakening Charge having a chance to greatly increase the damage of the next Vault or Dust Strike. With accompanying UI elements displaying beside the character to alert the player of a proc occurring, this would also play into the strengths of the more action combat orientated system that Guild Wars 2 has.

  • stone cold.8609stone cold.8609 Member ✭✭✭

    Comments for PvE only.

    Stealth is only wanted for one thing in most PvE groups - skipping trash mobs to make runs quicker. Stop trying to this tie other mechanics.
    Give us access to groups buffs that are wanted by groups. This could be achieved through a re-work of our venoms and venon sharing mechanic.
    Up the damage across the board so that we are competitive with other class benchmarks.
    New stolen skills that actually feel impactful and worth using. The Deadeye re-work got this part right.

  • Lucinellia.9247Lucinellia.9247 Member ✭✭✭

    @stone cold.8609 said:

    New stolen skills that actually feel impactful and worth using. The Deadeye re-work got this part right.

    Minor point, but Thief and Daredevil getting access to Stolen Skills wasn't part of the Deadeye rework. The Deadeye rework also reduced the effect of what was previously Peripheral Vision boon sharing.

  • Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.
    What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

    Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One of the weaknesses of Thief is that, ultimately, we are pretty simple to play. Our Condition build is particularly bad for this and so is Power Staff Daredevil. I find the current iteration of Deadeye to at least be a little bit more involving to ensure that there is overlap between Mark referesh, revealed wearing off and Assassin's Signet and Shadow Flare being up while positioning is good to maximise modifiers.

    With Condition builds, there more than one and the p/d version is generally superior to the D/D version. P/D is no more easier to play then is d/p power

    The simplicity of Thief stems from the initiative problem - we'll just hit what gives the most DPS as illustrated well by the failure of the reworked Malice and Maleficent Seven traits to encourage a Malice building rotation.

    This is not so much simplicity as it is a "choice" thing. People will tend to CHOOSE what they feel is easiest. This does not translate into what is optimal for the time unless you fighting something that is static such as an AI. In that situation all classes do the same thing, that is repeat a given rotation to maximize damage.

    Daredevil tried to resolve this by active modifiers applied through bound and having less than 100% endurance. This is a start, but Thief needs to have reasons to change the buttons it presses to get out the most damage.

    No they do not and this why there an INI system. Distributing damage across multiple skills is pointless. The reason certain builds have more active play in the number of skills used is not because skill 2 might do more damage then skill 3. It because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better. Added to that with weapon sets shared between condition and power , there will always be skills favorable to the given build type. IE d/d a perfect example. If in power you are rarely use #3. If in Condition you are rarely using #2.

    This could be done by adding modifiers on weapon swap. Swapping to rifle might change the next two Death's Judgement to hit harder and pierce, swapping to staff might improve the damage of Vault greatly, swapping to mainhand dagger could further modify Backstab, swapping to pistol/pistol could cause Unload to [Ricochet](

    I think what is need as far as weaponswaps with thief is no cooldown.

    The other option would be through procs which are popular for increasing the complexity of Rogue like classes in other games and overcoming their own initiative-like problems. An example proc for Daredevil might be Weakening Charge having a chance to greatly increase the damage of the next Vault or Dust Strike. With accompanying UI elements displaying beside the character to alert the player of a proc occurring, this would also play into the strengths of the more action combat orientated system that Guild Wars 2 has.

    This already happens but people do not use the skills because the payback not as good as using that INI for damage first and foremost. Again this people choosing the less then optimal. As example p #2 adds vuln and you can stack vuln in a hurry. This means your p#3 does more damage. If I can do 10% more condition or power damage on my bleeds or on my unload why would I not? Weakning charge already applies weakness . Weakness is a powerful condition. That is reason enough to use it as is dust strike.

    When you suggest more of these skills act in a way so that more damage is output, you are making the entire interaction about damage and nothing else. Blisnding an opponent, immobbing them, weakening them , making them slower all have a place in the game and are all very useful in an engagement. Again that a person CHOOSES to focus just on damage skills shows too great a focus on DPS which comes to us from Raids and peoples fighting AI.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:
    Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.
    What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

    Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

    I do not use SOA in my condition builds.

    I only use Shadowstep in one build albeit I may put it back in a second. I currently have 5 seperate thieves I use one a regular basis and one that is a testing build. SOA and Shadowstep are certainly two of the most commonly used but they hardly must haves.

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:
    Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.
    What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

    Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

    I do not use SOA in my condition builds.

    I only use Shadowstep in one build albeit I may put it back in a second. I currently have 5 seperate thieves I use one a regular basis and one that is a testing build. SOA and Shadowstep are certainly two of the most commonly used but they hardly must haves.

    So it's used by 90% of build but not yours. What's your point? If you had them on F skills you wouldn't use it?

  • Lucinellia.9247Lucinellia.9247 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    This already happens but people do not use the skills because the payback not as good as using that INI for damage first and foremost. Again this people choosing the less then optimal. As example p #2 adds vuln and you can stack vuln in a hurry. This means your p#3 does more damage. If I can do 10% more condition or power damage on my bleeds or on my unload why would I not? Weakning charge already applies weakness . Weakness is a powerful condition. That is reason enough to use it as is dust strike.

    When you suggest more of these skills act in a way so that more damage is output, you are making the entire interaction about damage and nothing else. Blisnding an opponent, immobbing them, weakening them , making them slower all have a place in the game and are all very useful in an engagement. Again that a person CHOOSES to focus just on damage skills shows too great a focus on DPS which comes to us from Raids and peoples fighting AI.

    That is all well and good but none of that will help improve thief in instanced PvE like raids and high tier fractals. You can dismiss it as "fighting AI" all you want, but the PvE game modes are considerably more popular that any variant of PvP.

    In those situations, vulnerability is already stacked, blinds are not helpful unless you are struggling to the extent of wiping on trash and you are going to run into the problem of wanting to use only the one ability that deals the most damage since that is your primary role as a DPS player.

    No they do not and this why there an INI system. Distributing damage across multiple skills is pointless. The reason certain builds have more active play in the number of skills used is not because skill 2 might do more damage then skill 3. It because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better. Added to that with weapon sets shared between condition and power , there will always be skills favorable to the given build type. IE d/d a perfect example. If in power you are rarely use #3. If in Condition you are rarely using #2.

    But this is bad design, surely you can see that? A rotation involving weapon swapping and procs would be far more engaging than just spamming away at one button. Also, your point about "because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better" is completely untrue in any sort of organised PvE environment since other people bring those debuffs and effects and bring them much better. The only valuable self-modifying skill we have currently is Assassin's Signet. There is no modifier on Weakening Charge or Dust Strike that directly improves the damage of your next Vault, for example.

    Honestly, I'm not sure on the point you are trying to make with your response. You say we press a variety of buttons (due to secondary effects which actually don't matter in any organised PvE) but then argue that we don't and we shouldn't? I'm a bit lost.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The best way to handle fixing weapon set viability would require a lot of new skills and a substantial number of reworks.

    Dual Wield skills should never have been made into just skill 3 as it creates too many "weak" kits while having the dominant ones be used as the point for balance of the class, also preventing direct buffs.

    Put Dual Wield skills on 2-4 and all you need to hinge balance around are skills 1 and 5 which are typically identity skills for each respective weapon and interplay with their main hand counterparts (CnD/BP and Stab/Sneak Attack).

    This way there's way more granularity to make tweaks that make sense and give the less-dominant kits more/better answers without affecting the dominant ones.

    @Orpheal.8263 said:
    For the game it would be just best, if the Thief gets a complete redesign.
    Daredevil was from begin on just a direct sidegrade of the Agility Core Thief, which got partwise dumbed down, just so that Daredevil receives a reason for existance.
    This dumbdown needs to get reverted and DE is just another offensive ranged sidegrade ..
    Why should have the Thief 2 offensive sidegrade E-Specs, when it would have been much better for the game, if the second E-Spec would be rather a supportive ranged class, so that Thief gets finally better a group support, to have a spec, that fills up finally this gap for the Thief Class.

    Staff, Rifle (as Merge with Harpoon Gun) and Offhand Sword should be all baseline Weapons rather for Core Thief. The Specs should be based on Longbow and Torch.
    DE is nothign atm but just a wannabe sniper, that should have found tbh never its way into the game - but now its there , now it needs to be integrated so that it fits to the identity of the thief and that is something, that the current DE doesn't do for me , because it feels like a bad combination of just a simple gunslinger and a stalker/shadow mage kind of gameplay, that doen't fit together... snipers using black magic as utility skills..yeah--right, very immersive - not

    Elite specs are supposed to be sidegrades. I don't really know how many times I need to post this link:
    https://np.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3opycg/arenanet_unveil_the_future_of_competitive_guild/cvzfp12/

    People just don't seem to understand that OHKO sniper is a horrible concept for the game and does not fit this game's style, especially in PvP. Design affects PvP more than it does in PvE and the stealth-sniper concept is horrible for that content. As for blackish shadow magic... thief already has it. It teleports all over the place and a ton of skills have inky, black particle effects. To be honest, if they weren't labeled cantrips I don't think there would even be an argument here. ANet is just reusing skill types for the sake of runes to give synergy to more builds outside of the elite spec long-term. It was actually the basis for my proposed Stygian Hunter Form for the early DE writeup I did back near when HoT launched.

    As for supportive ranged spec, that was the entirety of the proposal of what I made the original Deadeye about - except its support came from playing hyper-aggressively and keeping up damage rather than just sitting back casting heal spells.

    Bad design choices and powercreep are rampant and it's only obvious because the thief's core mechanics do not scale well with it all.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Good day Anet & forum viewers. I haven't posted anything on the official forums in years but with the recent discussions on the Deadeye changes and seeing how ANet appears to be monitoring the spec I would like to offer my experience with the class and feedback.

    I've been playing Thief since launch. It is my main even with all the drastic changes it has seen. I played Thief to a high level in PvE content as I use to sell Arah runs so I knew the spec pretty well to adapt to the situations. I also run raids from time to time when there's an available run with their introduction in HoT.

    The class needs help. The biggest argument I support is the fact that a class that's historically known to be a selfish damage class is not able to compete against the other classes that have dominated the area for years should be the balance team's number one priority. The Deadeye spec given to us in PoF doesn't help with the issue since it's a long range single target class and largely ignores the core thief specialization. That being said, I still think DE should be a high damage spec since the majority of its damage is focused on one target. Alongside a buff to numbers I welcome seeing supportive features added to Thief to let them stand out in group scenarios. If the damage can't be buffed to an acceptable level perhaps give their ability to mark targets be a squad wide buff for extra damage is something to further consider.

    Another issue is alacrity being not nearly as impactful for Thieves compared to other classes mainly due to the nature of instant skills that require initiative. As some have pointed out, an easy solution would be to allow initiative be sped up from alacrity. This should also help boost the Thief class damage output with quicker skill casts.

    Next, I would like to take a look back at core thief. I would love to see some of the signets reworked or relocated to the trait lines. For example, it doesn't feel good that Thief has to rely on Power Signet for passive power. Passive stat gains removes options. Unfortunately since there are so many passive traits that increase damage in other classes the Thief needs to be raised to the same level as other classes (e.g. elementalists damage increase thru traits).

    A big problem is Thief rotation. I would suggest looking back at the original Thief gameplay of positional requirement for higher damage. Back in vanilla a Thief would need to be in flank position if they wanted to do extra damage thru crits. You could bring this back to help balance the generally easier rotation thief have with more positional requirement to yield higher damage output. This can also differentiate between an average and a good thief player. Also, to solve flank issues on static bosses that only face you, you could make the sides be considered the flank.

    I really love the class and while I come back to the game from time to time I just think it's always a few steps away from achieving greatness. Anet, you guys have so much potential in this product and this is just one facet where the thief gameplay can win not just me but many thief players back with a few changes. I do hope Robert and the rest of the team take a good pass on the class, it's been needing love for a while now. Thanks and have a wonderful day.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2018

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:
    Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.
    What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

    Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

    I do not use SOA in my condition builds.

    I only use Shadowstep in one build albeit I may put it back in a second. I currently have 5 seperate thieves I use one a regular basis and one that is a testing build. SOA and Shadowstep are certainly two of the most commonly used but they hardly must haves.

    So it's used by 90% of build but not yours. What's your point? If you had them on F skills you wouldn't use it?

    You stated that thief MUST Take Shadowstep and SOA. I used myself as an example to state that not the case. You are not 90 percent of the thieves. You represent yourself. I can tell at a glance how many Thieves I meet in WvW use SOA and it not 90 percent. Indeed if you look to Metabattle 90 percent of the builds there do not even use SOA and Shadowstep together.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2018

    But this is bad design, surely you can see that? A rotation involving weapon swapping and procs would be far more engaging than just spamming away at one button. Also, your point about "because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better" is completely untrue in any sort of organised PvE environment since other people bring those debuffs and effects and bring them much better. The only valuable self-modifying skill we have currently is Assassin's Signet. There is no modifier on Weakening Charge or Dust Strike that directly improves the damage of your next Vault, for example.

    You continue to focus on Damage and DPS as being the only reason why one would want to use a given skill. This tells me your singular focus is PVE and raids or fractals where people treat DPS like a religion.

    I use Weakening charge and Dust Strike on Stuff to inhibit the abilities of an opponent to function in Combat. This allows me to survive longer, When they are blinded I can attack freely. When they are weakened I will take much less damage and impact their endurance regen. I have PLENTY of damage available to me in my Vault and other attacks and more is not required.

    When you are speaking to fighting AI scripts it NOT the same as fighting another player. AI scripts are exactly that and those that prefer that mode get tunnel vision when tha t all they are used to. AI opponents are hundreds of thousands of hit points which must be bled to 0 to "win" . This does not occur in PvP or Wvw when fighting other players. How I fight a champion when taking a keep is NOTHING like how I fight another player because the champion even with its higher hit points is not all that dangerous.

    There then a common suggestion that skill tied to the number of different buttons pressed. Again a fallacy. When one is only fighting an AI script one responds with the optimal rotation which does not take a lot to learn. Pressing 1 then 2 and three over and over again because 1d and 2 boost the damage done by 3 is NOT more skilled. It is just as repetitive as pressing 3 and 3 and 3. If the only goal is increasing DPS against an AN AI script then all skills will seem useless unless they add to DPS. This is not a function of "skilled gameplay". Again when fighting a champion in a keep I use less of SKILLED gameplay and focus more on my DPS skills.

    Dust Strike , headshot , Weakening charge and other such skills as used in PVP and WvW where one fights real players become more used the more skillful the enemy. If the Enemies every move can be predicted or anticipated (such as one that just spams a single skill) , then they are easier to counter without using those other skills. If the enemy is reacting to your moves, anticipating what you will do next, trying to bait you and counter with the entire pool of skills s/he has available then you will find yourself relying on your other skills more.

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:
    Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.
    What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

    Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

    I do not use SOA in my condition builds.

    I only use Shadowstep in one build albeit I may put it back in a second. I currently have 5 seperate thieves I use one a regular basis and one that is a testing build. SOA and Shadowstep are certainly two of the most commonly used but they hardly must haves.

    So it's used by 90% of build but not yours. What's your point? If you had them on F skills you wouldn't use it?

    You stated that thief MUST Take Shadowstep and SOA. I used myself as an example to state that not the case. You are not 90 percent of the thieves. You represent yourself. I can tell at a glance how many Thieves I meet in WvW use SOA and it not 90 percent. Indeed if you look to Metabattle 90 percent of the builds there do not even use SOA and Shadowstep together.

    The only one not using it is RAID builds because there's someone else removing conditions and it doesn't matter because nobody wants thief in raid anyway. All builds for wvw, pvp and open world use it. I'm not sure which metabattle are you looking at ^^

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2018

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @cyberwolf.5830 said:
    Besides from damage I think the problem with thief is also that you always need two utilities in every build which are shadowstep and agility signed. So in reality there's only one spot for an additional utility.
    What would be super cool is if they would add more F keys, F3,F4,F5 and add these utilities to the F so that become baseline. This would open up a lot of more fun play styles.

    Also get rid of initiative and make all weapon skills working with ammo system with 2 or 3 charges would reduce the skill spam and we could have more strong and significant skills which would be otherwise OP without a cd.

    I do not use SOA in my condition builds.

    I only use Shadowstep in one build albeit I may put it back in a second. I currently have 5 seperate thieves I use one a regular basis and one that is a testing build. SOA and Shadowstep are certainly two of the most commonly used but they hardly must haves.

    So it's used by 90% of build but not yours. What's your point? If you had them on F skills you wouldn't use it?

    You stated that thief MUST Take Shadowstep and SOA. I used myself as an example to state that not the case. You are not 90 percent of the thieves. You represent yourself. I can tell at a glance how many Thieves I meet in WvW use SOA and it not 90 percent. Indeed if you look to Metabattle 90 percent of the builds there do not even use SOA and Shadowstep together.

    The only one not using it is RAID builds because there's someone else removing conditions and it doesn't matter because nobody wants thief in raid anyway. All builds for wvw, pvp and open world use it. I'm not sure which metabattle are you looking at ^^

    There 22 builds listed on metabattle main page thief. 7 use both Shadowstep and SOA.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Thief

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    But this is bad design, surely you can see that? A rotation involving weapon swapping and procs would be far more engaging than just spamming away at one button. Also, your point about "because those other skills add more utility or ways to make the damage of your main damage skill work better" is completely untrue in any sort of organised PvE environment since other people bring those debuffs and effects and bring them much better. The only valuable self-modifying skill we have currently is Assassin's Signet. There is no modifier on Weakening Charge or Dust Strike that directly improves the damage of your next Vault, for example.

    You continue to focus on Damage and DPS as being the only reason why one would want to use a given skill. This tells me your singular focus is PVE and raids or fractals where people treat DPS like a religion.

    I use Weakening charge and Dust Strike on Stuff to inhibit the abilities of an opponent to function in Combat. This allows me to survive longer, When they are blinded I can attack freely. When they are weakened I will take much less damage and impact their endurance regen. I have PLENTY of damage available to me in my Vault and other attacks and more is not required.

    When you are speaking to fighting AI scripts it NOT the same as fighting another player. AI scripts are exactly that and those that prefer that mode get tunnel vision when tha t all they are used to. AI opponents are hundreds of thousands of hit points which must be bled to 0 to "win" . This does not occur in PvP or Wvw when fighting other players. How I fight a champion when taking a keep is NOTHING like how I fight another player because the champion even with its higher hit points is not all that dangerous.

    There then a common suggestion that skill tied to the number of different buttons pressed. Again a fallacy. When one is only fighting an AI script one responds with the optimal rotation which does not take a lot to learn. Pressing 1 then 2 and three over and over again because 1d and 2 boost the damage done by 3 is NOT more skilled. It is just as repetitive as pressing 3 and 3 and 3. If the only goal is increasing DPS against an AN AI script then all skills will seem useless unless they add to DPS. This is not a function of "skilled gameplay". Again when fighting a champion in a keep I use less of SKILLED gameplay and focus more on my DPS skills.

    Dust Strike , headshot , Weakening charge and other such skills as used in PVP and WvW where one fights real players become more used the more skillful the enemy. If the Enemies every move can be predicted or anticipated (such as one that just spams a single skill) , then they are easier to counter without using those other skills. If the enemy is reacting to your moves, anticipating what you will do next, trying to bait you and counter with the entire pool of skills s/he has available then you will find yourself relying on your other skills more.

    i dont disagree with u but this thread was opened to mainly Focus on the PvE functionality of thief gameplay in high end Content

    so u should indeed not mix it with pvp or wvw because thats not what this discussion is focused on.

  • @norbes.3620 said:

    i dont disagree with u but this thread was opened to mainly Focus on the PvE functionality of thief gameplay in high end Content

    so u should indeed not mix it with pvp or wvw because thats not what this discussion is focused on.

    True that the discussion is mainly centered around PvE, but any changes to the core functionality of the class (initiative, weapon procs, adding ammo charges etc.) would impact every game mode and feedback from players of that mode should not be ignored.
    Number tweakin is one thing, but I am personally strongly agains changes that would fundamentally alter the way the class plays between modes. This comes from a person that spends his time almost exclusively in PvE.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ShadowAgent.6053 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:

    i dont disagree with u but this thread was opened to mainly Focus on the PvE functionality of thief gameplay in high end Content

    so u should indeed not mix it with pvp or wvw because thats not what this discussion is focused on.

    True that the discussion is mainly centered around PvE, but any changes to the core functionality of the class (initiative, weapon procs, adding ammo charges etc.) would impact every game mode and feedback from players of that mode should not be ignored.
    Number tweakin is one thing, but I am personally strongly agains changes that would fundamentally alter the way the class plays between modes. This comes from a person that spends his time almost exclusively in PvE.

    Correct. The call is continually made for more DPS and transforming skills so as to provide the same without understanding the impact this has on PvP and in WvW. It understood why DPS so important when fighting bosses in raids and fractals and that because those bosses have hundreds of thousands of hitpoints. What happens though is that when "more damage" becomes the only fix ALL of the other skills are diminished in PvP and in WvW and that mode becomes ever less skillful and more about damage. If one or two hits can take down anyone given other players have around 20000 hp as opposed to boss fights where there hundreds and thousands and more Hitpoints then tactical play and skill usage vanishes completely in favor of kill them quick.

    One poster suggesting things like weakening strikes or Dust strike allow more damage on vault. We already have plenty of damage on vault so why? That blind and that dust strike may not be useful fighting a boss, but they very useful against other players.

    Now were there a complet e firewall between the modes this would not be an issue but CHANGING skills so they can all be used to enhance damage is exactly what WvW and Pvp does not need.As the system currently exists it impossible not to mix up the modes. Changes do not happen in isolation from one another. This likely a mistake on the part of ANET but it is the reality.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2018

    @ShadowAgent.6053 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:

    i dont disagree with u but this thread was opened to mainly Focus on the PvE functionality of thief gameplay in high end Content

    so u should indeed not mix it with pvp or wvw because thats not what this discussion is focused on.

    True that the discussion is mainly centered around PvE, but any changes to the core functionality of the class (initiative, weapon procs, adding ammo charges etc.) would impact every game mode and feedback from players of that mode should not be ignored.
    Number tweakin is one thing, but I am personally strongly agains changes that would fundamentally alter the way the class plays between modes. This comes from a person that spends his time almost exclusively in PvE.

    I'm glad at least someone understands this concept.

    Class design should be catered to the PvP modes to prevent issues like what we had before - stealth OHKO from defensive/safe builds - and what we have with Scourge which is literally doing all roles the best. Because you're interacting by both playing as and against a given build, it should be tolerable to both play as and against with clear lines drawn for weaknesses and strengths. Concept is so much more important in PvP and WvW than it is in PvE; D/D is a godawful kit in competitive because it effectively only has two skills that are useful while it dominates PvE because it offers strictly higher damage than everything else.

    Numbers should be tweaked in PvE to keep things viable if they're struggling to complete content. But really not much further than that. It also makes sense to do both shaving off the top and bumping up the bottom rather than hitting just over/under-performers with one nerf/buff to close the gap. And even then, I'd suggest this only really need to be done for raids because balance means nothing in open world content.

    As I recently learned from a friend, FF14 "tolerates" the use of DPS meters for personal record-keeping, but it's a bannable (and regularly enforced, apparently) offense to use it as leverage to get someone to change their build or kick them from a party. It'd be cool to see that direction taken to reduce toxicity in raids, if needing to buff the tolerances on enrage timers a bit on some of the raid bosses.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Lucinellia.9247Lucinellia.9247 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2018

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Class design should be catered to the PvP modes to prevent issues like what we had before - stealth OHKO from defensive/safe builds - and what we have with Scourge which is literally doing all roles the best. Because you're interacting by both playing as and against a given build, it should be tolerable to both play as and against with clear lines drawn for weaknesses and strengths. Concept is so much more important in PvP and WvW than it is in PvE; D/D is a godawful kit in competitive because it effectively only has two skills that are useful while it dominates PvE because it offers strictly higher damage than everything else.

    No it absolutely should not. The majority of the player base is not PvP focused and we've seen the outcome of a rework which ignores PvE outcomes in the situation of Deadeye - Anet ends up gutting weapon sets, making mechanics more clunky for the majority of players and run the risk of going through with changes which are ignored by the majority of the player base.

    Numbers should be tweaked in PvE to keep things viable if they're struggling to complete content. But really not much further than that.

    So why can't mechanics be changed for PvE and then numbers tweaked in PvP? You've given no reason why that shouldn't be the case. The less popular game mode should not dominate and come before what engages the most players.

    As I recently learned from a friend, FF14 "tolerates" the use of DPS meters for personal record-keeping, but it's a bannable (and regularly enforced, apparently) offense to use it as leverage to get someone to change their build or kick them from a party. It'd be cool to see that direction taken to reduce toxicity in raids, if needing to buff the tolerances on enrage timers a bit on some of the raid bosses.

    That would have no impact - people are still aware of the potential of a profession through utility and you'd need to remove the Special Forces Training Area too. You don't fix issues with something like Thief by attempting to obscure the problem.

  • Lucinellia.9247Lucinellia.9247 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    There then a common suggestion that skill tied to the number of different buttons pressed. Again a fallacy. When one is only fighting an AI script one responds with the optimal rotation which does not take a lot to learn. Pressing 1 then 2 and three over and over again because 1d and 2 boost the damage done by 3 is NOT more skilled. It is just as repetitive as pressing 3 and 3 and 3. If the only goal is increasing DPS against an AN AI script then all skills will seem useless unless they add to DPS. This is not a function of "skilled gameplay". Again when fighting a champion in a keep I use less of SKILLED gameplay and focus more on my DPS skills.

    Goodness. Read what I write and try and understand it before posting, All rogue like classes in MMOs have suffered from simplicity of rotation which is why you introduce chance on hit modifiers (procs - an explanation of which I already linked). A proc might be something along the lines of Weakening Charge having a "20% Chance on Hit to increase the Damage of Vault by 50% for 3 seconds". This means the standard PvE rotation is no longer limited to a rotation that can be learned and the player must adapt to the situation changing and also plays into the "risk and reward" supposed design of thief - the risk would be having a lower damage output unless we use the chance on hit proc correctly, in which case we are "rewarded" with a higher damage skill that we wouldn't normally used. This could be integrated in all sorts of interesting ways for PvE - "50% Chance on Headshot dealing Break Bar Damage to increase Unload damage by 100% for 2 seconds". With an accompanying UI element to the right hand side of the player to signify that the proc is active, the "risk" becomes failing a break bar while the reward would be massively increased damage. Chance on hit works well for Thief-like classes which is why it is used in a range of different MMOs, both in PvE and PvP. Of course, procs could also be made PvP-centric.

    It is not "Pressing 1 then 2 and three over and over again because 1d and 2 boost the damage done by 3 is NOT more skilled.". You have fundamentally misunderstood my post and my points just so you can look down your nose at PvE players and continue to argue from a PvP-centric point of view which this thread is not focused on.

    But if you want to talk about an actual fallacy...

    You continue to focus on Damage and DPS as being the only reason why one would want to use a given skill. This tells me your singular focus is PVE and raids or fractals where people treat DPS like a religion.

    Incorrect with a bit of a straw man fallacy thrown in. Doing this adds no value to a discussion - stop making incorrect assumptions about players and game modes. If you don't have sufficient experience don't talk about it. I don't try and make points about PvP after all...

    DPS is not treated like a "religion". The singular focus is not "Damage and DPS". If it was, condi Daredevil would have seen more play in raids than condi Renegade during the last balance patch because it was able to obtain higher damage in the majority of situations where condition damage is desirable. It didn't. There were around 4,000 instances of condi Daredevil recorded and about 10,000 for condi Renegade because the latter provides useful utility such as boon strip, emergency might and alacrity, AoE heal and condi suppression and leech healing through Soulcleave's Summit. Which points to the other problem with Thief which I'll quote myself on;

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    In those situations, vulnerability is already stacked, blinds are not helpful unless you are struggling to the extent of wiping on trash and you are going to run into the problem of wanting to use only the one ability that deals the most damage since that is your primary role as a DPS player.

    Many professions get chosen over others because of the utility they bring. Thief currently offers no worthwhile utility in PvE and pointing to the functionality of Dust Strike in PvP isn't going to change that.

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    One poster suggesting things like weakening strikes or Dust strike allow more damage on vault. We already have plenty of damage on vault so why? That blind and that dust strike may not be useful fighting a boss, but they very useful against other players.

    Again, a complete misunderstanding of my points regarding procs and chance on hit modifiers. I'd strongly suggest that you go back and read what I've posted. Follow the links I've included too so you can have a basic understanding of the use of procs to increase complexity and modify PvE rotations.

    You've been trying to tell me that we just press our highest DPS button - you should know that in a PvE context (which this thread is about despite attempts to make it otherwise) that is Weakening Charge. A changing rotation weaving in a DPS buffed Vault (which isn't a favourable choice in PvE unless you have enough targets to cleave) which is not always going to activate, due to inclusion of a chance on hit modifier, adds a further skill ceiling which Thief badly needs. With more damage coming from interactions like this, numbers can be better tuned (for both PvP and PvE).

    Another example specific to dagger/dagger might be "20% Chance on Backstab hit to cause the next Heartseeker to deal 300% increased damage. Effect lasts for 2 seconds and is consumed by using Heartseeker". A change like this vastly increases the complexity of the dagger/dagger rotation which is basically auto attack, Cloak and Dagger, Backstab with Assassin's Signet used before Backstab or Shadow Flare hits. With the proc built in and a suitable UI element to signify that it is active, there is the chance for the rotation to become auto, Cloak and Dagger, Backstab, Heartseeker and then due to the new Malice interaction, a player wanting to maximise damage is then faced with the decision of whether or not to immediately consume a higher Malice Backstab or wait for Assassin's Signet, depending on cooldown, to further modify the damage of the increased damage Malicious Backstab, a decision which may also impact when Shadow Flare and any Venoms are used. This makes the rotation non-linear and less something that can be learned, and something that changes depending on chance, player decisions and situations in a fight.

    Finally, can you please stop spinning this PvE-orientated thread with points about PvP and WvW? If you'd like to discuss those areas, where Thief is generally doing better than PvE, create your own discussion please.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Goodness. Read what I write and try and understand it before posting, All rogue like classes in MMOs have suffered from simplicity of rotation which is why you introduce chance on hit modifiers (procs - an explanation of which I already linked). A proc might be something along the lines of Weakening Charge having a "20% Chance on Hit to increase the Damage of Vault by 50% for 3 seconds". This means the standard PvE rotation is no longer limited to a rotation that can be learned and the player must adapt to the situation changing and also plays into the "risk and reward" supposed design of thief - the risk would be having a lower damage output unless we use the chance on hit proc correctly, in which case we are "rewarded" with a higher damage skill that we wouldn't normally used

    I READ what you wrote and when I said you were focused just on the DPS you were doing exactly that. You want to add more damage to Vault. You want to add more damage to HS all predicated on using another skill while saying it about higher skill. Your suggestion, as example of increasing HS damage by 300 percent would make a mockery of virtually every enemy you face out there , be it in WvW Pvp OR open world PVE. The only place it would not have that affect is in your Boss fights in Raids.

    You then point to "linear gameplay" suggesting that it be made better if more added to a rotation. The reason you experience "linear gameplay" is because of the mode you are talking about and that fighting a scripted AI. ANY game out there ends up in the same place when one fighting an AI , that being an optimal rotation found after some experimentation and then that optimal rotation insisted upon by the group or the player who does not follow it is griefed. Adding more choices does not change this , it only means some fewer participants in the fight will be able to follow it on demand and those that do not will receive that same grief.

    I have stated several times that if there wre a firewall between the various game modes wherein changes to a profession fighting a boss in a raid had NO effect on what happens elsewhere < i would have no problems with whatever it is you want to suggest. That is NOT how this works and pretending otherwise while suggesting other people not bring these factors into a conversation is litte more then sophistry . You are asking for fundamental changes as to how a skill works and not just differences in the "numbers".

    Now to your "this about PVE and nothing else" Ok to PVE.

    Assuming I can get 50 percent more damage to vault via a proc as you suggested, or 300 percent to a HS. 99 percent of open world PVE is NOT raids on raid bosses. Do you know how absolutely trivial that would make eny engagement? Do you know how much easier it would make those boss fights outside of the raids such as Karka queen or those timed events in the Heart of maguuma? There a reason fw show up at those boss fights anymore and that because those fights are routine. In a RAID you are limited to 10 players pumping out that DPS. In Open world you can have 40 or more on a single boss. 40 or more with a chunk pumping out 300 percent higher Heartseekers or 50 percent higher Vaults means a complete redesign of those bosses needed. ANET can not break all modes of Gameplay just to address the concerns of one small group of players that favor one game mode type.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    Just my opinion as a long time MMO player and as someone who has done game design/development.

    Balancing for PvE is really easy, most of it can just be addressed by tweaking numbers and making sure whatever roles you want to address are covered. The rest is just working out fight mechanics and the range/melee issues.

    Pvp is always going to be more complicated and require a finer touch. If you do not design and balance with PvP in mind you are not only destined to fail; you are also going to repeat your work because you will overlook a game breaking balance issue and have to push out a nerf.

    I get that PvE and PvP players don’t get along but we all play the same game like it or not.

    Anyway, stealth classes often have issue in PvE because stealth is a hard mechanic to quantify in that game mode. I get that thief needs more damage in PvE but then they run around one-shotting people in the other modes.(skill split I guess but lazy?)

    Personally I think thief mainly needs more utility as it’s glaring #1 issue, survivability without having to rely on stealth would also be nice.

  • Lucinellia.9247Lucinellia.9247 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    I READ what you wrote and when I said you were focused just on the DPS you were doing exactly that. You want to add more damage to Vault. You want to add more damage to HS all predicated on using another skill while saying it about higher skill. Your suggestion, as example of increasing HS damage by 300 percent would make a mockery of virtually every enemy you face out there , be it in WvW Pvp OR open world PVE. The only place it would not have that affect is in your Boss fights in Raids.

    You clearly didn't and you've just done it again! You totally missed my points regarding renegade (and utility) by accusing me of being focused on DPS and yet again misunderstood procs while ignoring that I suggest this come with balance to PvP and PvE numbers. . I also don't want to do anything - that's Anet's job. I'm trying to make constructive suggestions so you can quit it with trying to make things about me rather than what is proposed. These are just rough ideas, not serious suggestions. Maybe I need to seriously preface what I say with a large content warning that "This is just a suggestion for how mechanics work, not numbers for absolutely serious balancing which I have clearly not been able to test because I am not actually a developer."...

    You then point to "linear gameplay" suggesting that it be made better if more added to a rotation. The reason you experience "linear gameplay" is because of the mode you are talking about and that fighting a scripted AI. ANY game out there ends up in the same place when one fighting an AI , that being an optimal rotation found after some experimentation and then that optimal rotation insisted upon by the group or the player who does not follow it is griefed.

    Please, please stop talking like fighting "scripted AI" is lesser than what you do. I'm not suggesting that you are a poorer player for enjoying ganking people in WvW or fighting over a point (see how easy it is to build straw arguments that benefit no one?). If you take anything from this conversation, please avoid using these little jabs about what people enjoying doing in-game. It doesn't help and will just deter new voices from trying to be heard in this echo chamber.

    Regardless, your points make little sense. A rotation that inherently has RNG is never fully optimal because of when an ability procs and how a player responds to it. That is why they are used so successfully in a number of games which moved past the concept of a rotation and towards skill priorities years and years ago.

    Adding more choices does not change this , it only means some fewer participants in the fight will be able to follow it on demand and those that do not will receive that same grief.

    What? This is nonsense and founded on no evidence. If people couldn't follow procs and Chance on Hit abilities then they wouldn't be used in many other MMOs. If people can follow the rotation of a condition engineer or a weaver (which clearly they can do), I'm sure they'd manage with pressing 2 when a UI element pops up. It definitely adds complexity and a degree of chance and variation (which is direly needed for Thief and is lacking in general for an action combat game) but it is far from insurmountable.

    But again, your arguments are confused and you've tried to argue two totally different points - that there is an optimal rotation somewhere regardless but there will also not be one which will mean that it will be too difficult for people to follow. That doesn't make sense.

    I have stated several times that if there wre a firewall between the various game modes wherein changes to a profession fighting a boss in a raid had NO effect on what happens elsewhere < i would have no problems with whatever it is you want to suggest. That is NOT how this works and pretending otherwise while suggesting other people not bring these factors into a conversation is litte more then sophistry . You are asking for fundamental changes as to how a skill works and not just differences in the "numbers".

    Yes, I am asking for fundamental changes because Thief is in a terrible place. Something more than numerical changes are needed and I didn't realise this discussion was limited to only numerical proposals - I must have missed that part in the original post asking for discussion. Listen to the complaints of others - many of us posting here are doing for the first time since the rework because the lack of changes, lack of balance and lack of direction with Thief is actively killing the profession in the most popular game modes which includes raids, fractals and open world.

    And for someone that makes accusations of sophistry, you are doing a lot of insisting that PvE can only receive numerical balancing and not mechanical changes due to PvP . Numerical changes can occur in PvP too believe it or not - and in response to large PvE changes! This is, shockingly, how class development and changes should occur - in tandem over all modes. After all, there were considerable mechanical reworks with the Deadeye change which were not tested in PvE and it hasn't exactly been grand which is why myself and many first time posters are here, polluting the PvP-centricity, with PvE concerns. Sorry about that.

    Assuming I can get 50 percent more damage to vault via a proc as you suggested, or 300 percent to a HS. 99 percent of open world PVE is NOT raids on raid bosses. Do you know how absolutely trivial that would make eny engagement?... ANET can not break all modes of Gameplay just to address the concerns of one small group of players that favor one game mode type.

    So even with this thread (and many people in it) asking for the discussion to be focused on high end PvE balance...

    Numbers could be readjusted for baseline DPS in all game modes (easy to do) and encounters in open world are already trivial and are broken by years of power creep. And the reason people don't turn up is probably because they are sick of 5+ years of doing them. Open world encounters do not have the boon uptime or distribution that players do in raids and many mechanics force people out from stacking easily. Anet would also likely want to keep DPS benchmarks roughly, or below, where they are now. The situations aren't comparable and your concerns can easily be resolved by Thief doing less auto attack damage and relying more on actually using abilities - one of the biggest issues in this thread! Or, you know, with balancing.

    Anyway, I'll soon be making people sick of me in every thread so I'll leave this one here. Thanks for the discussions!

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2018

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Class design should be catered to the PvP modes to prevent issues like what we had before - stealth OHKO from defensive/safe builds - and what we have with Scourge which is literally doing all roles the best. Because you're interacting by both playing as and against a given build, it should be tolerable to both play as and against with clear lines drawn for weaknesses and strengths. Concept is so much more important in PvP and WvW than it is in PvE; D/D is a godawful kit in competitive because it effectively only has two skills that are useful while it dominates PvE because it offers strictly higher damage than everything else.

    No it absolutely should not. The majority of the player base is not PvP focused and we've seen the outcome of a rework which ignores PvE outcomes in the situation of Deadeye - Anet ends up gutting weapon sets, making mechanics more clunky for the majority of players and run the risk of going through with changes which are ignored by the majority of the player base.

    Raids are actually done by the fewest number of players in the game and DE works fine otherwise from a performance standpoint. There is some clunkiness, sure. But that's mostly from SScope and is being addressed. If anything, ANet failed its PvP goals even more with the changes with unblockable DJ and Malicious backstab. But that's because they designed themselves into a corner with a concept that doesn't work in this game. Which is what I said initially when I proposed the Deadeye and why my design went the way it did, which I explained in the documentation.

    A while ago, ANet published stats about game mode popularity; even sPvP which is definitively less populous than WvW ranked above raids and there are probably only a few thousand players actually doing sPvP. Raid benchmarking and screaming for balance over DPS numbers is literally the definition of a vocal minority.

    All of the core game was designed with PvP in mind. Did anyone really complain about the concepts of the professions in PvE back then? Not really save maybe ranger with its pet constantly dying in group play. So ANet fixed that with numbers for PvE-only and then made Soulbeast. Do you see my point?

    The only reason people are complaining about the DE changes are because it lost DPS on rifle. An overwhelming majority of the suggestions to fix rifle in PvE are just asking for more damage. Stealth on dodge roll means nothing in this context. Kneel doesn't need to be utilized anymore which should be a PvE buff. Immobilizing/crippling a boss and gaining swiftness also mean nothing. A non-evade short-range reposition has no place. Literally everything about the rifle except three skills and two traits was completely useless in PvE. The DE was never actually designed for PvE and the initial implementation of slow accumulation of malice should be a testament to that fact. If ANet wanted a support/damage elite spec concept for the thief, they'd have taken the original version of the Deadeye I proposed just after HoT launched, which I know made it to developers. The link with is available in my signature. I never edited it so it still has the formatting tags for the old forums.

    Numbers should be tweaked in PvE to keep things viable if they're struggling to complete content. But really not much further than that.

    So why can't mechanics be changed for PvE and then numbers tweaked in PvP? You've given no reason why that shouldn't be the case. The less popular game mode should not dominate and come before what engages the most players.

    Because the mechanics matter more in PvP, and the game's PvP participation has declined over the years specifically because it gets no attention in the concept of what is released. Pro players were vocal about this for years before they just gave up competing because it stopped being fun with how poorly the professions started to be designed. It is really, really abysmal. You just put down the example of the DE. People using it in PvE barely even used the skills like I said above. How many D/D thieves in PvE do you see using Death Blossom and Dancing Dagger? As long as there exists some rotation in there for maximized DPS, PvE is happy. Meanwhile, D/D is one of the worst loadouts possible of all professions in the entire game in the PvP formats, because skills 2-4 are complete garbage by their design and most professions will kill you before you can successfully land a CnD and punish you when you do. D/D worked in the old iteration of the game, and even then, its viability came mostly prior to when they added Revealed to the game, where D/D SA thieves would just spam CnD while never breaking stealth and stacking might.

    It's the same reasoning for why so many disparities have existed between formats for so long. Hammer was terrible in PvE while it dominated PvP. Earth ele was seen as pointless because it dealt no damage but was stacked by pro teams who didn't even play elementalist because it was so strong. Same with scourge and every iteration of necromancer, chronomancer/mesmer, disparities with pre-rework core ranger, and on and on and on.

    Hell, Blurred Frenzy got buffed an asinine amount to help mesmer's DPS because sword wasn't really usable in PvE despite being the single strongest weapon on the class for all PvP purposes.

    The entire point is you need to have cohesive kit design for the PvP formats. Numbers changes make things FoTM cheese but little else. Unhealthy patterns are so much more significant.

    The only justification for not designing things around PvP and to do so exclusively for PvE is because people want some kind of crazy power fantasy. I say to those people: Go play single player hack and slash games. MMO's are about teaming up and working together to do things you knowingly can't do alone. They're about community. And any community consisting of people insisting they're the best is doomed to fail or be disjoint at best.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Lucinellia.9247Lucinellia.9247 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2018

    The only reason people are complaining about the DE changes are because it lost DPS on rifle. An overwhelming majority of the suggestions to fix rifle in PvE are just asking for more damage. Stealth on dodge roll means nothing in this context. Kneel doesn't need to be utilized anymore which should be a PvE buff. Immobilizing/crippling a boss and gaining swiftness also mean nothing. A non-evade short-range reposition has no place. Literally everything about the rifle except three skills and two traits was completely useless in PvE. The DE was never actually designed for PvE and the initial implementation of slow accumulation of malice should be a testament to that fact. If ANet wanted a support/damage elite spec concept for the thief, they'd have taken the original version of the Deadeye I proposed just after HoT launched, which I know made it to developers. The link with is available in my signature. I never edited it so it still has the formatting tags for the old forums.

    Countless people have been complaining about how clunky the mechanics are for Deadeye now - the suggestion of a quick damage fix is because that is the easiest change and what will get us into a decent position for PvE quickest - which is what this thread is about. That you believe Stealth on dodge roll means nothing in the context of PvE is a worry (positioning and access to abilities is absolutely a concern in PvE) and that shows with some of your further comments especially with "Kneel doesn't need to be utilized anymore which should be a PvE buff. " (nope, nope, nope) and your belief that Deadeye has never been designed for PvE. Spellbreaker was also designed for PvP, the same with Scourge and both of them have been tuned to allow for good utility and DPS in PvE - even Scrapper has healing utility in PvE now! So I don't buy the "Deadeye isn't for PvE argument", especially with PvE centric traits baked in during the rework (hello Perfectionist).

    I do agree with you and believe that Deadeye needs changes and I'd agree with it as a support spec - but for it to be such currently it also needs to bring decent damage or have a considerable mechanical rework which seems to draw the ire of PvP players who feel the need to jump into threads about high-end PvE and make the thread about them.

    The entire point is you need to have cohesive kit design for the PvP formats. Numbers changes make things FoTM cheese but little else. Unhealthy patterns are so much more significant.

    I agree. Fully. However, I disagree massively with the posters in this forum that are absolutely adamant that PvP balance should come before anything else and that PvE does not deserve mechanical changes and only numerical tweaks. I know that this is something of an unpopular opinion on these forums, but I don't think PvP should be an absolute or even primary focus (balance should be across all modes) and changes made with PvP in mind should not negatively impact PvE and vice versa. Failing to consider that is how you end up with low engagement, low damage and low utility professions in PvE - like Thief.

    Anyway, all of this discussion about PvP and its relative importance in balancing is just detracting from the focus of this thread which was initially created to discuss high-end PvE issues. I get that some forum members aren't used to having to deal with us PvE Thief players actually having a voice but if we could have this topic at least for PvE Thief focused discourse that would be lovely.

    And with that, I'm truly out. Sorry!

  • Bramymond.7689Bramymond.7689 Member ✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    Edit: deleted

  • Bramymond.7689Bramymond.7689 Member ✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    Edit: deleted

  • SoulSin.5682SoulSin.5682 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2018

    The talk about staff and reveiled training made me think of something.

    Wouldn't be interesting to suggest a change to Smoke Screen ?
    I always found the concept of "charges" for skills like Distracting daggers interesting and perhaps we could apply that to skills as well.
    Either way, as way to have easy call to revealed on PvE would be giving 2~3 casts of Smoke Screen (for reduced time ofc, reduce 7s to 2~3s).

    For PvE, would sinergy with Bound and grant revelead training for the current Staff rotation while on PvP would give an accessible access to stealth to Staff and D/D users alike. Plus a 2 second projectile barrier on call has many uses as well. Smoke Screen doesn't reflect so it wouldnt be much broken.
    Plus, if any future new specialization class for thief grant us a new off hand weapon (Like Focus, shield, torch, etc) we would still have access to stealth without being slave to pistol off hand.

    Downside would be the fact we already have that effect on DE Rifle and no one ever asked for it.

    Edit: Other skills that could receive this treatment are Scorpion Wire and perhaps Caltrops. Reduced duration/effect for more casts.