Consolidated Suggestions for DE Changes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

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Consolidated Suggestions for DE Changes

saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭
edited May 22, 2018 in Thief

I’d like to consolidate a list of issues and proposals for adjustments to DE traits. This makes it easier to provide feedback without a lot of L2P and other noise. I’ve read all the threads and done some testing myself so if I’ve missed something please let me know.

Note: This is limited to modifications of current traits. It does not include suggestions to (1) entirely revert the patch, (2) introduce entirely new skills or (3) reinstate traits removed by the patch (Unforgiving). The goal is to keep the same synergy that the developers had in mind in choosing to implement these traits and skills when making suggestions below to improve functionality, balance and enjoyment.

Traits

Silent Scope

  • Issue: Like all stealth gain traits this trait inherited a long standing issue where projectiles in flight can strike a target after stealth is applied, revealing the thief in the process. This is in the class of traits generally categorized as “functional but inconsistent” or “clunky.”
  • UPDATED WITH DEVELOPER COMMENT
  • @Robert Gee.9246 stated that the stealth will be moved to the end of the dodge roll within the next few weeks. They considered, but rejected (for now), a broader change to stealth that makes the thief temporarily immune to reveal to avoid lingering reveals. The out-of-combat requirement is also being removed.
  • Implemented May 22, 2018
  • Issue 2: Kneel resetting the cooldown feels very clunky. Being endurance limited means this shouldn’t need an awkward sit-and-stand for stealth purposes.
  • Solution 2: Remove the cooldown.

Malicious Intent

  • Issue: This bonus to malice gain feels half baked. Malice on Mark makes perfect sense. Malice on Heal does not. All other malice gain is tied to attacking and so thematically it makes little sense as it permits perma-stealth gameplay. It also contributes to issues with how malice is generated (see below).
  • Solutions: Replace malice gain on heal with malice gain on landing a stealth attack. This improves generation rates and promotes 100% active engagement to generate malice.

Collateral Damage (Burst of Shadows)

  • Issue: The main concern is that this trait has little impact outside of PvE because players don’t die often enough for this trait to be impactful.
  • Solution 1: Make this trait apply on downed targets or apply an effect like knockback or daze separate from the AoE damage on the target’s death.
  • Solution 2: Make this trait apply on cantrip use but with a lesser effect.

Payback

  • Issue: Like above, the trait has little synergy outside of PvE because it rarely triggers. And, depending on the target it often doesn’t often trigger in PvE either.
  • Solution 1: Apply an effect on downing a target that also gives an advantage. If a mark is downed, gain health by striking the mark with a stealth attack while downed.
  • Solution 2: Adjust Payback’s recharge reduction to the size of target killed or downed.
  • Solution 3: Change payback to a cooldown reduction each time you Mark a target.
  • Solution 4: Make Payback trigger on hitting Mark with a Cantrip with a reduced effect.
  • Solution 5: Make Payback trigger on each successful use of a stolen skill.

Malice System

  • Issue: Malice generation rate is either fast or extremely slow. This is mainly due to critical hits which are somewhat RNG the lower your crit rate actually is. Malice gain is also the same no matter what the initiative cost is, which makes landing high initiative skills less rewarding.
  • Solution: Make malice gain from skill use somewhat depend on initiative spent. Initiative spent rolls over from skill to skill and resets to zero when malice is spent. At 3 initiative per malice gain a 4 initiative skill + 5 initiative skill would grant 3 to 5 malice instead of 2 to 4 under the current system. This is a slight but QoL increase for those not running high damage spam abilities like Unload that can generate malice very efficiently.

Stealth Attacks

Malicious Backstab

  • Issue: Due to 10% per malice damage scaling this is now the preferred stealth attack. While it lacks the unblockable aspect it gains potential oneshot capacity which overshadows other stealth attacks which have comparatively weaker bonuses. Weaker doesn’t mean every skill should be oneshot damage. It just means that the bonuses have inconsistent tactical value.

Death’s Judgment

  • Special Note: Although DJ is considered underpowered by many at this time most complaints are due to issues with gaining stealth from Sniper’s Cover and the trait synergy. To the extent that PvP/PvE damage for this skill is too low (after adjustments are made to the other aspects of DE) then this skill may warrant a PvP or PvE specific damage adjustment.

Malicious Tactical Strike

  • Issue: Gaining endurance is something most sword builds are not going to have an issue with. Vigor uptime aside, this feels somewhat out of place when you consider the daze aspect on the base skill.
  • Solution: make this apply 1/2 second of quickness per malice spent. This improves synergy with Be Quick or Be Killed and opens up sword Deadeye as a viable enhancement to the specialization.

Utilities

Mercy

  • Issue: When used with One in the Chamber Mercy does not grant an additional cantrip. This is more a function of how Mercy works which is why this is categorized under “utilities.” This means there is an inherent lack of synergy between a major cantrip and a cantrip specific trait.
  • Solution: Make Mercy consume the current stolen skill for the boons it would normally grant. When used without OitC it consumes a stolen skill if there is one available. If OitC is traited it overwrites with a fresh Stolen skill and then consumes it.

Weapon Skills

Rifle: Kneel and Sniper’s Cover

  • Issue: The interaction between these skills feels slow because it takes too long to activate Sniper’s Cover in response to incoming projectiles.
  • Solution: Make one of these skill instant cast to improve the reaction time.

Pistol/Pistol: Malicious Sneak Attack and Unload

  • Issue: This set lacks stealth access so it can’t cycle malice as quickly as other sets. M-Sneak Attack also does condi damage so a P/P build loses DPS to gaining stealth to “clear” the malice.
  • Solution: (WIP Placeholder) Rebalance the set by making Unload apply a stacking buff to the player on hit. The buff lasts for 10 seconds and applies vulnerability to a target on a stealth attack.

Bugs

Silent Scope (unconfirmed)

  • May be triggering without a rifle actively equipped.
  • 20% crit increase isn’t applied when standing for Death’s Judgment.
  • Skill doesn’t hit for “out of range” despite being within 1500 range (other 1500 range skills hit).
  • Skill may fail to fire if you are pushing directional keys after a Sniper’s Scope dodge and instead only apply reveal without triggering g the stealth attack to fire (bug with how self reveal from DJ is applied?)

Shadow Gust

  • The stealth can activate before a melee strike and reveal the thief automatically.

Smoke Field + Death’s Retreat

  • Double tapping DR immediately stacks stealth on both the initial retreat AND the second DR after your character is no longer standing in a combo field.

Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
Deadeye (Thief)
Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

Tagged:
<<1345678

Comments

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    Solutions: Replace malice gain on heal with malice gain on landing a stealth attack. This improves generation rates and promotes 100% active engagement to generate malice.
    Wouldn't this conflict with spending malice using stealth attacks [unless not tied to the stealth autoattack]? Does it guarantee 1 malice if you spend it all with a stealth attack basically? So if you had 7, and you did a stealth attack which normally resets to 0 it gives you 1 back? I agree with all the other stuff you've mentioned, sounds good. Sorry if I misunderstood anything.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    Solutions: Replace malice gain on heal with malice gain on landing a stealth attack. This improves generation rates and promotes 100% active engagement to generate malice.
    Wouldn't this conflict with spending malice using stealth attacks [unless not tied to the stealth autoattack]? Does it guarantee 1 malice if you spend it all with a stealth attack basically? So if you had 7, and you did a stealth attack which normally resets to 0 it gives you 1 back? I agree with all the other stuff you've mentioned, sounds good. Sorry if I misunderstood anything.

    Yes, the malice gain would be applied after the attack lands and the malice is spent. It wouldn’t matter how much you spend just it would add plus one after landing the Stealth Attack (reducing time to next stealth attack).

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    Solutions: Replace malice gain on heal with malice gain on landing a stealth attack. This improves generation rates and promotes 100% active engagement to generate malice.
    Wouldn't this conflict with spending malice using stealth attacks [unless not tied to the stealth autoattack]? Does it guarantee 1 malice if you spend it all with a stealth attack basically? So if you had 7, and you did a stealth attack which normally resets to 0 it gives you 1 back? I agree with all the other stuff you've mentioned, sounds good. Sorry if I misunderstood anything.

    Yes, the malice gain would be applied after the attack lands and the malice is spent. It wouldn’t matter how much you spend just it would add plus one after landing the Stealth Attack (reducing time to next stealth attack).

    Ahh ty for explaining. I hope anet considers your suggestions.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭

    Appending some bugs as I hear about them.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only issue I have is trying to expedite malice gain further on potent skills like Double Tap/TRB over the less-powerful iterations. The only reason for this I have is M7's refunding of initiative. As I explained in another thread, M7 + Rifle 2 = permanent initiative if the attacks land when accounting for cast times and base initiative recovery. Increasing Malice stack gain with more expensive skills would just make this interaction more problematic as it may as well just call for the removal of initiative on rifle skills altogether.

    I see the issue: Condi builds. I just don't know how to make it work without breaking power builds. Part of me also likes making condition builds benefit or feel obligated into moving to precision for more damage (as opposed to just going Dire/TB) as power builds need to.

    While I can't claim to have a better idea, I just don't think this is the route to go if it leads to the possibility of speeding up Malice acquisition, and I can't think of a good way to do this that doesn't just result in people spamming the cheapest way to get malice maxed out.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    The only issue I have is trying to expedite malice gain further on potent skills like Double Tap/TRB over the less-powerful iterations. The only reason for this I have is M7's refunding of initiative. As I explained in another thread, M7 + Rifle 2 = permanent initiative if the attacks land when accounting for cast times and base initiative recovery. Increasing Malice stack gain with more expensive skills would just make this interaction more problematic as it may as well just call for the removal of initiative on rifle skills altogether.

    I see the issue: Condi builds. I just don't know how to make it work without breaking power builds. Part of me also likes making condition builds benefit or feel obligated into moving to precision for more damage (as opposed to just going Dire/TB) as power builds need to.

    While I can't claim to have a better idea, I just don't think this is the route to go if it leads to the possibility of speeding up Malice acquisition, and I can't think of a good way to do this that doesn't just result in people spamming the cheapest way to get malice maxed out.

    Would you say M7 is the issue then? I’d identify a similar issue with Unload in that you get a lot more malice when you can spam an ability at low cost. But the big issue isn’t that Unload is more efficient on its own. The issue arises out of the lack of an internal cooldown and how significant M7’s initiative regen is.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭

    I’ll post separately to respond that I like the investment in precision for bonus condi aspect. That was clever and responded to the lack of condi bonuses from precision on thief generally.

    What I worry about is how condi sets still need to invest in vitality, expertise and condition damage in addition to precision. PvP has Deadshot amulet (which I use) but WvW armor lacks an easy way to get nearly as much crit as power builds using Maurader.

    I’ve got a theory crafted build up to 40% crit. That is how far I can push it before the armor stats available don’t let me sacrifice any more toughness for precision and still keep a reasonable hp pool for a thief. 54% crit is comfortable (Deadshot) but I worry about about going lower than 40%.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    The only issue I have is trying to expedite malice gain further on potent skills like Double Tap/TRB over the less-powerful iterations. The only reason for this I have is M7's refunding of initiative. As I explained in another thread, M7 + Rifle 2 = permanent initiative if the attacks land when accounting for cast times and base initiative recovery. Increasing Malice stack gain with more expensive skills would just make this interaction more problematic as it may as well just call for the removal of initiative on rifle skills altogether.

    I see the issue: Condi builds. I just don't know how to make it work without breaking power builds. Part of me also likes making condition builds benefit or feel obligated into moving to precision for more damage (as opposed to just going Dire/TB) as power builds need to.

    While I can't claim to have a better idea, I just don't think this is the route to go if it leads to the possibility of speeding up Malice acquisition, and I can't think of a good way to do this that doesn't just result in people spamming the cheapest way to get malice maxed out.

    Would you say M7 is the issue then? I’d identify a similar issue with Unload in that you get a lot more malice when you can spam an ability at low cost. But the big issue isn’t that Unload is more efficient on its own. The issue arises out of the lack of an internal cooldown and how significant M7’s initiative regen is.

    Sort of. I thought P/P might be a problem at first, but the difference with P/P is that the set really doesn't gain much for repeated applications; M7 will only proc when using a stealth attack, which P/P needs to allocate extra resources for. Rifle, like D/P, has built-in stealth and utilizes a stealth attack as part of its primary means of reliable damage, so it'll be cycling M7 procs much more often than P/P. I think P/P's problem is simply that the initiative refund on Unload is too strong for how much damage it deals.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • AikijinX.6258AikijinX.6258 Member ✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool.

    So first things first...
    We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait.

    Moving forward from here…
    You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums.

    Thanks for the update Robert, definitely a step in the right direction.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool.

    So first things first...
    We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait.

    Moving forward from here…
    You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums.

    I'd rather see you reversing DE changes altogether.

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I'd rather see you reversing DE changes altogether.

    I think it's pretty obvious that that's not happening. But it's a good thing that they're listening to the criticism and that they will adjust things.

  • Rengaru.4730Rengaru.4730 Member
    edited May 11, 2018

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool.

    So first things first...
    We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait.

    Moving forward from here…
    You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums.

    Hey Robert, I know us Players can sometimes be a pain, but thanks for interacting with us anyways.

    First of all, I think the old perma-stealth 1 shot build was really unfun to play against and the implementation of Deaths Judgement as a stealth ability coupled with the new Silent Scope has the potential of creating a more dynamic playstyle so kudos on that.

    However, in any end-game PvE situation you simply cannot use the rifle while standing due to the extreme loss in DPS. This forces a very rigid playstyle that has very few applications in the current game where mobility is key. This causes the Deadeye to always be a very low tier pick, unless it's damage was increased drastically to compensate for it, a direction I don't think would be healthy for the game at all.

    Now, rather than suggesting to increase the kneeling damage and promote a "stiff, but still top tier damage therefore must pick" gameplay, I suggest buffing the standing abilities damage to rival the kneeling ones in PvE (!) while nerfing their utility as compensation.

    For example:

    • Brutal Aim: Increase the damage to match Deadly Aim, but remove the vulnerability.
    • Skirmisher's Shot: Increase the damage to match Spotter's Shot, but remove (or lower) the swiftness/cripple.
    • Double Tap: Increase the damage to match Three Round Burst, but remove (or lower) the might gain.

    This together with the new Deaths Judgement mechanics would enable a mobile (read: Fractals and Raid friendly) gameplay, while still rewarding kneeling with the higher range/boons (which are usually secondary in organized group content to begin with).

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    You know this is just a thought but some of us liked the stealth on kneel instead of the on dodge mech. Why not swap premeditation or payback with the old silent scope if were not going to be rolling back? That way you know traits are used like they should be allowing players to tailor deadeye to their play style? That would be a good start and give us more options on how the traits affect us, as it is with the change deadeye is more brawler than sniper now that change would give you the option of playing sniper or brawler.

  • AikijinX.6258AikijinX.6258 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Saerni -- your consolidation post is very helpful. Thank you for creating it. We have seen a large number of posts come up, and some folks are posting in multiple threads, which they shouldn't need to do. I'm going to lock most of those threads and point here so that we can have one focused discussion. I think that will make it easier for everyone, and will allow Robert and the team to gather more meaningful feedback.

    Please keep in mind that constructive feedback is welcome. You can disagree with an idea 100% and say so -- by all means! But don't take swipes at other members for their ideas. Instead, focus on and address the ideas themselves. In short, don't take potshots at anyone: players, the team, or individuals involved with the subject. Let's keep the conversation productive, informative, and of value to the community and the devs alike.

    Wow double dev post \o/ definitely our lucky day!

  • @AikijinX.6258 said:

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Saerni -- your consolidation post is very helpful. Thank you for creating it. We have seen a large number of posts come up, and some folks are posting in multiple threads, which they shouldn't need to do. I'm going to lock most of those threads and point here so that we can have one focused discussion. I think that will make it easier for everyone, and will allow Robert and the team to gather more meaningful feedback.

    Please keep in mind that constructive feedback is welcome. You can disagree with an idea 100% and say so -- by all means! But don't take swipes at other members for their ideas. Instead, focus on and address the ideas themselves. In short, don't take potshots at anyone: players, the team, or individuals involved with the subject. Let's keep the conversation productive, informative, and of value to the community and the devs alike.

    Wow double dev post \o/ definitely our lucky day!

    Well, thanks for noticing, but in this case I'm just doing a little sensible reorganization to keep things more focused. You folks are the "subject matter experts" and your feedback is welcome and will be read. :)

    Gaile Gray
    Communications Manager: ArenaNet
    Fansite & Guild Relations; In-Game Events; Community Showcase Live

  • I for myself think pistol is a problem with the deadeye as the weapon seems to be in a conflict with itself and the side weapon.

    • Auto: kind of condi, sneak attack too (even more with deadeye)
    • 2: general utility, so works for power and condi
      Now begins the probelm:

    • 3: with p/p clearly power, with p/d clearly condi

    • 4: general utility, works great
    • 5: general utility

    So the off hand pistol is a great utility weapon, but paired with main hand pistol it's somewhat fuuu as the quaggan would say (not in the good way). p/p gains not much from deadeye as the stealth attack is condi but 3 is clearly power and it lost some dmg due to the malice changes. But if you make the stealth attack power p/d suffers. You would have to go even more hybrid which seems suboptimal. It would need a condition other than bleed which is still beneficial for power. Maybe poison (for the reduced healing but doesn't make a whole lot of sense) or burning as the base damage is quite high and the might stacks from 3 could pump it to acceptable levels (but might be op for a real condi build). Maybe go the other way around. Let it work like 3 from p/p. Each successful hit gives a boon. Something beneficial for condi and power like quickness but only for a short amount of time. Would be easier to balance as most thief don't have huge amounts of boon duration (max 28% from traits) and have some synergy with the new boon trait Premediation. Premediation should also work for condis and make it a stacking buff like Lead Attacks from trickery.
    As Doctor Hide said, you could change the roll to effect all weapons but I see some problems for dagger (dodge backstab doesn't sound fun) and shortbow (on demand stealth + teleport would be too much). So maybe it should only work for pistol too as it is a gun like rifle and a deadeye should have some knowledge with guns of any kind (call it hidden gunslinger or the like). Would give pistol some much needed active defense as it only has 900 range.

    Also thank you for interacting with the community and giving us a second chance.

  • Volrath.1473Volrath.1473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool.

    So first things first...
    We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait.

    Moving forward from here…
    You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums.

    Tks for the update Rob.
    I totally understand the stealth being applied in the beginning of the dodge roll it makes much more sense!

    My question is, do you have the means/tools to apply some kind of buff for 1/2 second that would prevent stealth from braking?

    Tyvm

  • Doctor Hide.6345Doctor Hide.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Schnuschnu.9857 said:
    I for myself think pistol is a problem with the deadeye as the weapon seems to be in a conflict with itself and the side weapon.

    • Auto: kind of condi, sneak attack too (even more with deadeye)
    • 2: general utility, so works for power and condi
      Now begins the probelm:

    • 3: with p/p clearly power, with p/d clearly condi

    • 4: general utility, works great
    • 5: general utility

    So the off hand pistol is a great utility weapon, but paired with main hand pistol it's somewhat fuuu as the quaggan would say (not in the good way). p/p gains not much from deadeye as the stealth attack is condi but 3 is clearly power and it lost some dmg due to the malice changes. But if you make the stealth attack power p/d suffers. You would have to go even more hybrid which seems suboptimal. It would need a condition other than bleed which is still beneficial for power. Maybe poison (for the reduced healing but doesn't make a whole lot of sense) or burning as the base damage is quite high and the might stacks from 3 could pump it to acceptable levels (but might be op for a real condi build). Maybe go the other way around. Let it work like 3 from p/p. Each successful hit gives a boon. Something beneficial for condi and power like quickness but only for a short amount of time. Would be easier to balance as most thief don't have huge amounts of boon duration (max 28% from traits) and have some synergy with the new boon trait Premediation. Premediation should also work for condis and make it a stacking buff like Lead Attacks from trickery.
    As Doctor Hide said, you could change the roll to effect all weapons but I see some problems for dagger (dodge backstab doesn't sound fun) and shortbow (on demand stealth + teleport would be too much). So maybe it should only work for pistol too as it is a gun like rifle and a deadeye should have some knowledge with guns of any kind (call it hidden gunslinger or the like). Would give pistol some much needed active defense as it only has 900 range.

    Also thank you for interacting with the community and giving us a second chance.

    I would be fine if just the pistol got it. Like I said, you need an active stealth slot to just use the Malicious Sneak Attack for P/P, so having the roll stealth us to use the stealth attack would be a much needed QoL change with the rework.

    I do agree with you on the changes for the P/P. I just stated power because it came to my mind first, but I do think something needs to change for P/P from the current situation it is in now. Right now it is a jumbled mess not knowing what it is.

    If Life gives you lemons, put the lemons in a sack and beat up Life for giving you lemons in the first place.

  • @Volrath.1473 said:
    My question is, do you have the means/tools to apply some kind of buff for 1/2 second that would prevent stealth from braking?

    This was a potential solution we considered when we were looking at our options. We chose to go a different route since it was more difficult to determine what kind of impact this would have across the whole game. (This is the type of change we'd want to apply globally since it would be weird if only a single trait had special functionality.) Changing a single trait is much safer than making a new rule for stealth and we wanted to keep things within the scope of a Deadeye update.

  • Karnn.4569Karnn.4569 Member ✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool.

    So first things first...
    We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait.

    Moving forward from here…
    You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums.

    This sounds like a good start maybe its just me but my issue is with the stealth being tied to the endurance bar. Before we could Kneel and stealth this gave us control over damage evasion and the stealth separately. These changes were to make this easier and less clunky, but now its more clunky and awkward. Now you dodge and get stealth wasting stealth ability when you have to dodge damage even more so if your revealed. Then there's the 10sec CD Which makes it a bigger problem if you get hit with revealed then dodge it goes on CD then your forced to kneel to refresh. So now you use your endurance up dodging while someone tries to shoot your face in your forced to use a different skill to stealth because kneeling to refresh when getting shot at gets u killed via self CC. These changes have taken control away from the player and made the rifle stealth more complicated and tedious.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭

    How about changing bullet velocity so it doesn't have a chance to break stealth? Would that be too inconsistent a change?

  • Volrath.1473Volrath.1473 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:

    @Volrath.1473 said:
    My question is, do you have the means/tools to apply some kind of buff for 1/2 second that would prevent stealth from braking?

    This was a potential solution we considered when we were looking at our options. We chose to go a different route since it was more difficult to determine what kind of impact this would have across the whole game. (This is the type of change we'd want to apply globally since it would be weird if only a single trait had special functionality.) Changing a single trait is much safer than making a new rule for stealth and we wanted to keep things within the scope of a Deadeye update.

    I understand, it would be possible but allot harder to implement.
    My train of thought was wile having this trait apply this "buff" for the duration of the dodge roll. The impact would be close to none besides fixing the problem we face atm.

    If we are stealth and dodging, there is nothing that can break stealth except if it's duration come to an end.

    This way you would only affect the trait and not stealth in general.

    But yeah I understand the amount of work involved opposed to simply moving the stealth to the end of the dodge but I'm sure you agree that at the beginning make much more sense ;)

    Edit: this buff would be attached to the dodge, not to steath.

  • @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    How about changing bullet velocity so it doesn't have a chance to break stealth? Would that be too inconsistent a change?

    With the current implementation, the stealth is applied as soon as the roll begins. Dodge rolling has a more or less an instant activation, so there's no way we could make the bullet fast enough with the current system that you couldn't start your dodge roll (and get the stealth) before it hit.

  • Schnuschnu.9857Schnuschnu.9857 Member ✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:

    @Volrath.1473 said:
    My question is, do you have the means/tools to apply some kind of buff for 1/2 second that would prevent stealth from braking?

    This was a potential solution we considered when we were looking at our options. We chose to go a different route since it was more difficult to determine what kind of impact this would have across the whole game. (This is the type of change we'd want to apply globally since it would be weird if only a single trait had special functionality.) Changing a single trait is much safer than making a new rule for stealth and we wanted to keep things within the scope of a Deadeye update.

    I think this or any solution like this would be far to strong as this could be used to backstab while the buff is up (players would find a way to pull this off) because you remain mobile. Would be a bit like the Cloak&Dagger thief without reveal in the old days. Maybe a seperate stealth mechanic could be used like the camouflage from the ranger in the beginning. As long as you remain still after the dodge roll you stay hidden no matter what. If you move/ or are moved you get revealed. Would fit with the sniper theme of getting the perfect cover and sniping away from a static position. Stealth attack cooldowns would keep the spam in check and animations would give away your location to allow counterplay.
    Edit: Would also allow for higher DPS in PvE which was crushed by the changes.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    On the other hand the more I think about it, this mechanic although not my cup of tea would be able to seperate skilled players but I would rather have some kind of dmg output compensation. Having the stealth at the end of roll with your direction of roll exposed is a big liability, unless that Dodge was somewhat like a mirage ambush skill (call it slither or something). Or maybe have it add a blind if you Dodge within certain time of the shot, so a well timed Dodge gives you stealth that doesn't reveal, but too early after the shot and it just blinds but adds a self reveal dmg bonus.

  • Volrath.1473Volrath.1473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    How about changing bullet velocity so it doesn't have a chance to break stealth? Would that be too inconsistent a change?

    With the current implementation, the stealth is applied as soon as the roll begins. Dodge rolling has a more or less an instant activation, so there's no way we could make the bullet fast enough with the current system that you couldn't start your dodge roll (and get the stealth) before it hit.

    Sorry to say this Rob but how did you guys miss this wile testing the trait? One or two fights would have been enough to stumble on this bug...

  • @Robert Gee.9246 said:

    @Volrath.1473 said:
    My question is, do you have the means/tools to apply some kind of buff for 1/2 second that would prevent stealth from braking?

    This was a potential solution we considered when we were looking at our options. We chose to go a different route since it was more difficult to determine what kind of impact this would have across the whole game. (This is the type of change we'd want to apply globally since it would be weird if only a single trait had special functionality.) Changing a single trait is much safer than making a new rule for stealth and we wanted to keep things within the scope of a Deadeye update.

    Hello, would just like to point out that the Deadeye utility "Shadow Gust" has a similar issue. It has a cast time, but also a dmg component to it so in melee it does not stop your auto attacks thus instantly revealing you after use. The cast time also makes it impossible to face away from your target or sheathe weapons like one can with Blinding Powder from core thief.

    Thanks.

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums.

    Do you mind commenting on our damage as it stands after this patch?
    The previous update which brought DE damage in line with other DPS classes seems to have been invalidated by this update. Any plans to address this issue?

  • Vulcaruss.9567Vulcaruss.9567 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool.

    So first things first...
    We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait.

    Moving forward from here…
    You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums.

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Heya, thanks for the thoughtful and well-formatted feedback. I wasn't sure if I should post again after my last "thanks for the feedback" post was misinterpreted. But I wanted to give it one more shot since I thought some of these ideas were pretty cool.

    So first things first...
    We are planning to move the stealth application on the Silent Scope trait from the start of the dodge roll to the end. There are pros and cons to each version so I want to explain the reasoning. We originally put the stealth at the beginning of the dodge to make it more responsive and to give it a sneaky feel by hiding the direction of your roll. However given problems some players are having with being revealed by bullets in flight, we've decided to move it to the end. This should make the moment-to-moment gameplay with rifle feel smoother and more intuitive. We are also removing the in-combat restriction from this trait.

    Moving forward from here…
    You'll see this change in an update coming in a few weeks. (I think we'd all like that to happen sooner but our team doesn't control the update cycle and we need to wait for other changes in the update be implemented, tested, etc.) While this doesn't address all of the feedback we've seen so far it was the one we were able to ship in the shortest amount of time. We will continue to follow up as necessary so please continue to leave your feedback on the forums.

    My Solution would be to find a way to utilize Malice consumption in more ways rather than just on Stealth Skills.

    I know I'm quoting myself here but I thought it would be better than Editing the old one. I've been sitting here pondering after I posted that on a way to use Malice outside of Stealth Skill, and I think I just figured out how.

    Mr. Gee, would you be beyond adding a new F3 skill to the Deadeye? I've seen people recommend it before but, not in a manner like I am going to propose to you now. Basically as it stands I cannot see a way of adding a malice consuming ability to any of the weapons by itself. And to be honest I am fond of this new Stealth System but only on certain weapons. IE: Certain weapons meaning everything BUT Rifle. I feel moving Deaths Judgement was some what drastic and threw off the balance of the weapon.

    Any who, my new Idea is giving Deadeye an F3 ability which consumes Malice. This ability would be based upon the main hand weapon the Thief is holding. It's a bit of a knock off of the Warrior Adrenaline F1 skill, but I cannot see any other way to make Malice consumption usable outside of Stealth in it's current interpretation. Obviously there needs to be advantages and disadvantages to using either the in stealth skill or the out of stealth skill, I'll leave that decision to the team if this Idea is good enough to adopt. But it goes with out saying, the skills for the F3 being based upon the Main Hand Weapon need to be comparably strong to the stealth counter parts. Since Stealth Skills are unblockable maybe knock off the unblockable perk on the F3 skill.

    This is all just a suggestion though. I'll leave you the decision as to whether it's suiting enough to be used. And thank you for taking the time to listen and respond to feed back. Always a welcome sight.

    Edit: I just thought of this real quick, but maybe as to not conflict with the F3 skill while in stealth, the F3 skill could change over to a more defensive based skill while in stealth that consumes malice too that way the there won't be this disparity of confusion about using the F3 skill while stealthed. As to whether this skill is weapon based too or not, I'll leave that up in the air for now.

  • eldrjth.7384eldrjth.7384 Member ✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    The only issue I have is trying to expedite malice gain further on potent skills like Double Tap/TRB over the less-powerful iterations. The only reason for this I have is M7's refunding of initiative. As I explained in another thread, M7 + Rifle 2 = permanent initiative if the attacks land when accounting for cast times and base initiative recovery. Increasing Malice stack gain with more expensive skills would just make this interaction more problematic as it may as well just call for the removal of initiative on rifle skills altogether.

    All that means is that instead of using AA as a filler one can use an ini spender similar to unload on pistol. The extra initiative can now actually be used on util skills like the new cover skill. Having more initiative is not inherently a bad thing. Could it cause some imbalance issues between DD and DE? maybe? but DD can focus more on auto attack style of play and DE focus more on initiative skills while it has to operate around a 2 resource system of initiative > malice.

    I think that since initiative refund is such a strong mechanic it should be made baseline to all DE builds even when traited into bqobk or fire for effects. The difference between taking bqobk or m7 becomes whether one wants to focus on malicious strike damage or whether they want to boost dmg done by other attacks. So M7 would increase malice count to 7 so the malice build up is longer but it would also gain bonus dmg for malicious strikes. Maybe something like gain an extra 5% bonus dmg per stack of malice so you get 35% extra dmg at 7 stacks (edit: or maybe even consider that you only get bonus dmg to malicious strikes if you M7 trait). They can also gate the frequency of malicious strikes behind malice gain by not having it count more than once even when criting, but also count auto attacks. This would make DJ usable almost as frequently as prepatch. I would then change Malicious intent so it starts the malice count at 1 every time you hit with a malicious stike (rather than marking a target or using a heal skil). Now it takes only 6 attacks before one can use DJ.

    If they implement something like this I would also like to see dodge roll prime a malicious strike rather than needing stealth which not all weapon sets have easy access to.

    Other changes I would make are:-

    • make silent scope baseline to rifles. (freeing up one master trait slot)
    • replace burst of shadows with payback
    • reinstate peripheral vision as a master trait
    • Malicious Intent, malice counts starts at 1 when hitting with a malicious strike
    • I havent come up with something to fill the last master trait slot with, I got peripheral vision and premeditation there atm.
  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Restoration

    This heal has been nerfed.

    What if for each transferred condition up to 3, it gave the extra 808 base heal?

    Possible to get a reduced recharge on cantrips? Thief is single target class, even the infamous scourge has punishment skill reduced recharge.

    Yep, I main thief, and I am biased. Who isn't?

    I created a youtube channel for roleplay videos. Crab Fear Roleplay

    This site expands the videos I make

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    Kneel needs an animation as it'd look silly otherwise, so it'll probably never be instant as then it'd also need to be a stunbreak (OP). Cutting the aftercast would probably be enough to make it fluid in use but not usable while in CC or some other tell just like every other skill.

    There are probably some other mechanics that could be utilized with an instant kneel such as abusing crit chance gains for standing DJ's into the kneel during projectile animation in order to get the extra crit chance boost, while then also reverting out of it immediately following the projectile landing to suffer no real mobility penalty, basically defeating the purpose of the interaction.

    They could probably keep it clunky and let Kneel skills provide an additional malice. This would uniquely help the rifle in some of its weaker areas and reward some more risky plays using it. The only concern here is yet again M7's initiative recovery; it'd allow for two skill activations in kneel to max which is fine, except that it'd allow for basically infinite spamming of TRB and DJ just by dodge-rolling.

    I guess the conclusion is that M7 is a problematic trait with the initiative recovery it has. Unless there's a definitive sacrifice or risk for the initiative gain (like Stygian Charge in my Deadeye proposal), lots of free init just seems too potent and too difficult to make compatible with a number of possible changes.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭

    I just noted something very odd as I started more play on rifle.

    If you use skill 4 for SNIPERS Cover and immediately follow up the laying down of the field with TWO deaths retreats in a row even if the second no longer in range of the field, you will stack stealth twice. This happens ONLY in WvW (I have not tested PvP) If you do the same thing in PVE you get one stealth trigger. Whether intended or not I do not know but I sort of like it in WvW.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    I just noted something very odd as I started more play on rifle.

    If you use skill 4 for SNIPERS Cover and immediately follow up the laying down of the field with TWO deaths retreats in a row even if the second no longer in range of the field, you will stack stealth twice. This happens ONLY in WvW (I have not tested PvP) If you do the same thing in PVE you get one stealth trigger. Whether intended or not I do not know but I sort of like it in WvW.

    that was actually the first thing i tried, multiple stacking but I couldn't get it to work the way i wanted. Are you laying them in the same area right on top of each other or at a slight distance between? when the changes first dropped that was the first thing i wanted to see if stealthed could be stacked due to how little initiative the fields were but I dunno, I will keep trying.

    Ok, I reread your post, i see what you are doing now, i will test.

    Ok test done, you were right I think they do double stack.

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