Critical Strikes vs Deadly Arts

I'm currently running a CS/DA/DE build in Open World PvE and was thinking about using Trickery in my build... but I don't know what to get rid of.I'm having a blast with rifle Deadeye so that's here to stay.So the question is... should I remove Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes? CS seems to offer the least since fury's no problem with M7 and Thrill of the Crime, but a lot of old posts seem to suggest DA is last priority.Any thoughts/recommendations?

DA is more attuned to doing high damage especially after revealed procs. Mug can be useful too especially with trash mobs, will be getting that heal very often.

CS can be very handy too for a ton of sustain with invigorating precision.

Tbh they're both useful traitlines. I usually switch around just for fun.. never really stick to 1 build.

@Animag.7634 said:I'm currently running a CS/DA/DE build in Open World PvE and was thinking about using Trickery in my build... but I don't know what to get rid of.I'm having a blast with rifle Deadeye so that's here to stay.So the question is... should I remove Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes? CS seems to offer the least since fury's no problem with M7 and Thrill of the Crime, but a lot of old posts seem to suggest DA is last priority.Any thoughts/recommendations?

Run Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes and Deadeye. I wouldn't recommend you to use Trickery in open world PvE unless you prefer having a lower cooldown on Deadeye's Mark. You need Deadly Arts because of the Executioner trait and Critical Strikes for the Twin Fangs and Invigorating Precision trait.

@Animag.7634 said:I'm currently running a CS/DA/DE build in Open World PvE and was thinking about using Trickery in my build... but I don't know what to get rid of.I'm having a blast with rifle Deadeye so that's here to stay.So the question is... should I remove Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes? CS seems to offer the least since fury's no problem with M7 and Thrill of the Crime, but a lot of old posts seem to suggest DA is last priority.Any thoughts/recommendations?

CS doesn't have a lot to offer if you are using a slow attacking weapon like a Rifle. If you are building for Quickness or using a fast attacking weapon, then go with CS.

In my experience, Poison is a must-have in WvW so I would go with DA/Trick/DE.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Animag.7634 said:I'm currently running a CS/DA/DE build in Open World PvE and was thinking about using Trickery in my build... but I don't know what to get rid of.I'm having a blast with rifle Deadeye so that's here to stay.So the question is... should I remove Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes? CS seems to offer the least since fury's no problem with M7 and Thrill of the Crime, but a lot of old posts seem to suggest DA is last priority.Any thoughts/recommendations?

CS doesn't offer any advantages to attacking faster or slower so long as you're attacking once every 2s for AF/NQ if you bother to run them. There's otherwise zero explicit synergy with CS and attack speed. If anything, it favors slower, harder-hitting weapons.

As for the OP, Trickery is optional in PvE because M7 solves all initiative problems which it used to not do. CS offers strictly higher damage than DA does if you opt for No Quarter with Trickery, but both offer more damage than Trickery if you run Executioner in DA.

If you want to keep Trickery, I'd opt for CS over DA and push for NQ.

I use dedly, crits and devil with staff with dash for mobility in pve. However in fractals dedeye is more dps.

A little off topic, but if this is indeed open world, then why M7? Do you often reach full malice?

On that same note, if you don't reach full M7, then why not BQoBK, ditch DA to Trick, and just delete everything w/ Three Round Burst.

@saloja.7920 said:A little off topic, but if this is indeed open world, then why M7? Do you often reach full malice?

On that same note, if you don't reach full M7, then why not BQoBK, ditch DA to Trick, and just delete everything w/ Three Round Burst.

against mobs where you dont reach m7, kneeling down for trb is a time waste so p/p is better even tho you will rarely finish an unload on those mobs. and against larger groups you will be faster with s/p or shortbow as deadeye

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Animag.7634 said:I'm currently running a CS/DA/DE build in Open World PvE and was thinking about using Trickery in my build... but I don't know what to get rid of.I'm having a blast with rifle Deadeye so that's here to stay.So the question is... should I remove Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes? CS seems to offer the least since fury's no problem with M7 and Thrill of the Crime, but a lot of old posts seem to suggest DA is last priority.Any thoughts/recommendations?

I agree that a slow, hard-hitting weapon is more favorable in long term, however, it is not ideal for proc-ing effects that procs on crit hits. AF/NQ needs you to crit every 2s, not just attack. High attack speed can ensure a crit within that short window.

If you can crit with the Rifle every 2s, then it's definitely the better choice. However, since that is not the case, it is a wasted potential.

One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's Exposed weakness constant dmg boost and Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die. Not to mention, Revealed Training synergizes with DJ very well.

As for the OP, Trickery is optional in PvE because M7 solves all initiative problems which it used to not do. CS offers strictly higher damage than DA does if you opt for No Quarter with Trickery, but both offer more damage than Trickery if you run Executioner in DA.

If you want to keep Trickery, I'd opt for CS over DA and push for NQ.

This is only true when fighting a boss-type mob in PvE Raid-like scenario - the OP is asking about Open World PvE. All other mobs will die sooner than you can proc for M7 and will run out of Initiative faster without Trick. DA+Trick is a better combo all around than CS+Trick - even more so in WvW. DA is a must have in WvW.

Now if there is an event boss, you can definitely drop Trick and get both CS and DA.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's [..] Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die.

both traits buff damage for 50% of the HP. one before, one after. executioner has more % and works also on non crits but ferocious strikes is a minor trait.IMO the fact that ferocious strikes increases damage above 50% has 2 advantages over below 50%.

• helps for oneshots against trashmobs in PvE or against players in WvW/PvP
• many classes got modifiers for below 50% in instanced PvE, so the parties DPS without you increases below 50% .wich means your damage on the mob below 50% is less then above 50% without the trait. so if you then can choose a trait with an equal modifier for the above 50% or below 50%, the one providing more damage above 50% will net more overall damage.

my 2nd point is worded a little confusing, hope you still understand. english is not my first language.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's [..] Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die.

• helps for oneshots against trashmobs in PvE or against players in WvW/PvP

I know the value of it in PvP/WvW thus I said; "In PvE..."

As for trash mobs, you can get the same 10% bonus from Exposed Weakness without the silly self-nerf below 50%.

• many classes got modifiers for below 50% in instanced PvE, so the parties DPS without you increases below 50% .wich means your damage on the mob below 50% is less then above 50% without the trait. so if you then can choose a trait with an equal modifier for the above 50% or below 50%, the one providing more damage above 50% will net more overall damage.

my 2nd point is worded a little confusing, hope you still understand. english is not my first language.

I get what you're saying.

Sure, theoretically more net damage, if you don't count that Executioner granting 20%.

DA's dmg bonus starts from 10% via Exposed Weakness, then a total of 30% dmg bonus when Executioner (+20%) kicks in. The 10% bonus from Ferocious Strike is nowhere near that overall dmg bonus since you lose that 10% when your target falls below 50% health. It's a really bad trait in PvE.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's [..] Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die.

• helps for oneshots against trashmobs in PvE or against players in WvW/PvP

• many classes got modifiers for below 50% in instanced PvE, so the parties DPS without you increases below 50% .wich means your damage on the mob below 50% is less then above 50% without the trait. so if you then can choose a trait with an equal modifier for the above 50% or below 50%, the one providing more damage above 50% will net more overall damage.

my 2nd point is worded a little confusing, hope you still understand. english is not my first language.

the individual modifiers are different correct. my point was just that a damage increase above 50% is better then a damage increase below 50% in most cases.while you lose that modifier when dropping to 50% , you dont even get executioner modifier till 50% wich actually means the more % you hit from above 50% to below it, the more you will have ferocious strikes and the less executioner. for example mob is at 60%, you make strike for 30%. for this strike you have ferocious strikes but not executioner. then the mob is at 30% wich means you essentially used ferocious strikes for 70% and executioner for 30%.

if you compare both traitlines for damage then i am not entirely sure wich one provides more for openworld.on DA you got : 10% Exposed weakness + average 10% from executioner, sometimes 200 power - if you play with SA all the time for trashmobs but SA is damage loss, posion from mark and damage on mark.in CS you got: more crit chance so i am pretty much at 100% crit chance in lvl 80 areas, scaling might change this. with this i have 7% from twin fangs, average 5% from ferocious strikes , and my crit damage is boosted from ~220 to 250% not sure how much severance sigil proc would increase those two that is an increase of around 14%

so we got DA with 20% damage increase + damage/poison on mug or CS with 26% damage increase and crit chance increase.

i personally think CS provides more damage here.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

This is only true when fighting a boss-type mob in PvE Raid-like scenario - the OP is asking about Open World PvE. All other mobs will die sooner than you can proc for M7 and will run out of Initiative faster without Trick. DA+Trick is a better combo all around than CS+Trick - even more so in WvW. DA is a must have in WvW.

Now if there is an event boss, you can definitely drop Trick and get both CS and DA.

That is the reason why I like bqobk better in open world. I use that with roll for initiative and mercy, on trash mobs you dont get close to getting M7 filled, so by taking bqobk you get 200/200 precision power and quickness compared to nothing. I also take CS (not DA) because invigorating precision works so good along side signet of malice in keeping your HP up. You get extra dmg by keeping your scholar rune bonus up (which is almost all the time) while also being tankier than any other option. I also think dragon breath bun is a must use consumable in Open world if youre not specifically farming using magic find. It is basically an extra 200 power and 70 ferocity which cost<2 silver.

I like DA in PvP because poisoning the enemy reduces his healing and executioner tends to down enemies because of the unexpected burst at low HP. But for PvE I think CS is better.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's [..] Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die.

• helps for oneshots against trashmobs in PvE or against players in WvW/PvP

• many classes got modifiers for below 50% in instanced PvE, so the parties DPS without you increases below 50% .wich means your damage on the mob below 50% is less then above 50% without the trait. so if you then can choose a trait with an equal modifier for the above 50% or below 50%, the one providing more damage above 50% will net more overall damage.

my 2nd point is worded a little confusing, hope you still understand. english is not my first language.

You're comparing Ferocious Strike with Executioner when you should be comparing Ferocious to Exposed Weakness.

Ferocious Striek falls off below 50%.Exposed Weakness stays on until target is dead.Both grants 10% damage boost.

on DA you got : 10% Exposed weakness + average 10% from executioner, sometimes 200 power - if you play with SA all the time for trashmobs but SA is damage loss, posion from mark and damage on mark.in CS you got: more crit chance so i am pretty much at 100% crit chance in lvl 80 areas, scaling might change this. with this i have 7% from twin fangs, average 5% from ferocious strikes , and my crit damage is boosted from ~220 to 250% not sure how much severance sigil proc would increase those two that is an increase of around 14%

Your average crit chance is around 80% with CS. To get higher than 80% crit chance, you have to sacrifice a lot of survivability. In Open World PvE, without adequate survivability, you'll lose a lot of damage potential being downed all the time plus the downed penalty after revival.

The only real advantage of CS is Ferocity. So on lucky crit shots, CS will deal more damage.

Twin Fang is unreliable most of the time since in Open World PvE you are always below 90% health. You're better off taking Signet of Power since Signet of Agility will give you tons of endurance to dodge AoEs. In WvW, Twin Fang is really good if you get to jump on to someone first, however, it is not enough to pick the whole CS trait line.

so we got DA with 20% damage increase + damage/poison on mug or CS with 26% damage increase and crit chance increase.

i personally think CS provides more damage here.

If you are lucky to crit every shot, yes I agree, CS is better. Since that is not the case, the consistent damage bonus from DA is better.

@eldrjth.7384 said:I also take CS (not DA) because invigorating precision works so good along side signet of malice in keeping your HP up.

Not necessary. Mug keeps your health up especially with trash mobs with Sleight of Hand. I got to use Withdraw roughly every 10s due to Payback. Thus, if you are to take CS, don't waste the GM slot on IP.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's [..] Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die.

• helps for oneshots against trashmobs in PvE or against players in WvW/PvP

• many classes got modifiers for below 50% in instanced PvE, so the parties DPS without you increases below 50% .wich means your damage on the mob below 50% is less then above 50% without the trait. so if you then can choose a trait with an equal modifier for the above 50% or below 50%, the one providing more damage above 50% will net more overall damage.

my 2nd point is worded a little confusing, hope you still understand. english is not my first language.

on DA you got : 10% Exposed weakness + average 10% from executioner, sometimes 200 power - if you play with SA all the time for trashmobs but SA is damage loss, posion from mark and damage on mark.in CS you got: more crit chance so i am pretty much at 100% crit chance in lvl 80 areas, scaling might change this. with this i have 7% from twin fangs, average 5% from ferocious strikes , and my crit damage is boosted from ~220 to 250% not sure how much severance sigil proc would increase those two that is an increase of around 14%

so we got DA with 20% damage increase + damage/poison on mug or CS with 26% damage increase and crit chance increase.

i personally think CS provides more damage here.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's [..] Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die.

• helps for oneshots against trashmobs in PvE or against players in WvW/PvP

• many classes got modifiers for below 50% in instanced PvE, so the parties DPS without you increases below 50% .wich means your damage on the mob below 50% is less then above 50% without the trait. so if you then can choose a trait with an equal modifier for the above 50% or below 50%, the one providing more damage above 50% will net more overall damage.

my 2nd point is worded a little confusing, hope you still understand. english is not my first language.

on DA you got : 10% Exposed weakness + average 10% from executioner, sometimes 200 power - if you play with SA all the time for trashmobs but SA is damage loss, posion from mark and damage on mark.in CS you got: more crit chance so i am pretty much at 100% crit chance in lvl 80 areas, scaling might change this. with this i have 7% from twin fangs, average 5% from ferocious strikes , and my crit damage is boosted from ~220 to 250% not sure how much severance sigil proc would increase those two that is an increase of around 14%

Severance only procs on interrupt and some mobs cannot be interrupted, thus I said, "Your average crit chance..."

I also said that in order to get higher than 80%, you are to sacrifice a lot of survivability, which you are, for running full 'serker.

if i want more survivability and switch some parts for marauder, then i have even more crit chance.

You sacrifice Power and Ferocity for that survivability.

The only real advantage of CS is Ferocity. So on lucky crit shots, CS will deal more damage.

Twin Fang is unreliable most of the time since in Open World PvE you are always below 90% health. You're better off taking Signet of Power since Signet of Agility will give you tons of endurance to dodge AoEs. In WvW, Twin Fang is really good if you get to jump on to someone first, however, it is not enough to pick the whole CS trait line.

why are you below 90% ? what are you doing i mean you should be killing most opponents before they even get to use a skill.

Most Open World PvE comes with a lot of AoE. Just look at the Shatterer or the Claw. You're very very lucky to stay above 90%.

so we got DA with 20% damage increase + damage/poison on mug or CS with 26% damage increase and crit chance increase.

i personally think CS provides more damage here.

By saying "most of time" means it is luck. lol.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's [..] Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die.

• helps for oneshots against trashmobs in PvE or against players in WvW/PvP

• many classes got modifiers for below 50% in instanced PvE, so the parties DPS without you increases below 50% .wich means your damage on the mob below 50% is less then above 50% without the trait. so if you then can choose a trait with an equal modifier for the above 50% or below 50%, the one providing more damage above 50% will net more overall damage.

my 2nd point is worded a little confusing, hope you still understand. english is not my first language.

on DA you got : 10% Exposed weakness + average 10% from executioner, sometimes 200 power - if you play with SA all the time for trashmobs but SA is damage loss, posion from mark and damage on mark.in CS you got: more crit chance so i am pretty much at 100% crit chance in lvl 80 areas, scaling might change this. with this i have 7% from twin fangs, average 5% from ferocious strikes , and my crit damage is boosted from ~220 to 250% not sure how much severance sigil proc would increase those two that is an increase of around 14%

if i want more survivability and switch some parts for marauder, then i have even more crit chance.

The only real advantage of CS is Ferocity. So on lucky crit shots, CS will deal more damage.

Twin Fang is unreliable most of the time since in Open World PvE you are always below 90% health. You're better off taking Signet of Power since Signet of Agility will give you tons of endurance to dodge AoEs. In WvW, Twin Fang is really good if you get to jump on to someone first, however, it is not enough to pick the whole CS trait line.

why are you below 90% ? what are you doing i mean you should be killing most opponents before they even get to use a skill.

so we got DA with 20% damage increase + damage/poison on mug or CS with 26% damage increase and crit chance increase.

i personally think CS provides more damage here.

Worth noting, > 50% hp conditional bonuses are better than < 50% ones because they apply to all hits regardless of how much damage they do so long as the target is above 50% when taking the hit.

It's why CS scales best with slower harder-hitting weapons; if the target is at 50.1%, a massive subsequent hit will get its damage multiplied and thus the modifier will contribute to more of the target's overall lost health than any possible bonus below 50% since there's a cap to the maximum allowable modified damage on a given hit.

If there's debate about M7 being worthwhile because monsters die too quickly, then DA is not as good as Tr; the conditional health tie to Executioner will contribute too little noticeable damage in comparison to the permanent 15% from LA, which will be superior to EW by a substantial margin by the nature of multiplicative modifiers.

DA/CS/DE will offer the highest damage over prolonged encounters into Elites/Champions and possibly veterans depending on gear. On trash, CS/Tr/DE will be better as BQoBQ can be utilized for the higher stats/crit chance and faster animations.

My own rule of thumb on BqoBk over M7 is when i am in a set with cleave I prefer BqobK. Ie S/d PW against trash mobs +cleave is devastating. If I am on single shot (p/p rifle) I lean towards M7. More INI > faster shots. it does little good to kill something faster with an unload or TRB and then have to wait on INI.

If we talking just PVE you have plenty of kill power in either DA or CS but CS does have IP and while you lose damage dropping NQ that IP can keep your health peaked. It really quite easy to stay above 90 percent health when you are using something like a PW or Unload on top of SOM with IP running meaning twin fangs will get both bonuses. If you happen to be in scholars you will get higher uptime on the 10 percent which will help make up for ferocity loss.This the same reason Staff can do so well open world using vault. Load up IP, hit multiple targets and your health kept full.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:One gripe I have about CS is Ferocious Strike. In PvE this is one of the most useless trait ever. It's practically a self-nerf when the target is about to die. Compare that to DA's [..] Executioner's dmg boost when the target is about to die.

• helps for oneshots against trashmobs in PvE or against players in WvW/PvP

• many classes got modifiers for below 50% in instanced PvE, so the parties DPS without you increases below 50% .wich means your damage on the mob below 50% is less then above 50% without the trait. so if you then can choose a trait with an equal modifier for the above 50% or below 50%, the one providing more damage above 50% will net more overall damage.

my 2nd point is worded a little confusing, hope you still understand. english is not my first language.

on DA you got : 10% Exposed weakness + average 10% from executioner, sometimes 200 power - if you play with SA all the time for trashmobs but SA is damage loss, posion from mark and damage on mark.in CS you got: more crit chance so i am pretty much at 100% crit chance in lvl 80 areas, scaling might change this. with this i have 7% from twin fangs, average 5% from ferocious strikes , and my crit damage is boosted from ~220 to 250% not sure how much severance sigil proc would increase those two that is an increase of around 14%

if i want more survivability and switch some parts for marauder, then i have even more crit chance.

The only real advantage of CS is Ferocity. So on lucky crit shots, CS will deal more damage.

Twin Fang is unreliable most of the time since in Open World PvE you are always below 90% health. You're better off taking Signet of Power since Signet of Agility will give you tons of endurance to dodge AoEs. In WvW, Twin Fang is really good if you get to jump on to someone first, however, it is not enough to pick the whole CS trait line.

why are you below 90% ? what are you doing i mean you should be killing most opponents before they even get to use a skill.

so we got DA with 20% damage increase + damage/poison on mug or CS with 26% damage increase and crit chance increase.

i personally think CS provides more damage here.

I think we can agree that different build works best in different situations and that there is no one-build-fits-all.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Worth noting, > 50% hp conditional bonuses are better than < 50% ones because they apply to all hits regardless of how much damage they do so long as the target is above 50% when taking the hit.

It's why CS scales best with slower harder-hitting weapons; if the target is at 50.1%, a massive subsequent hit will get its damage multiplied and thus the modifier will contribute to more of the target's overall lost health than any possible bonus below 50% since there's a cap to the maximum allowable modified damage on a given hit.

If there's debate about M7 being worthwhile because monsters die too quickly, then DA is not as good as Tr; the conditional health tie to Executioner will contribute too little noticeable damage in comparison to the permanent 15% from LA, which will be superior to EW by a substantial margin by the nature of multiplicative modifiers.

DA/CS/DE will offer the highest damage over prolonged encounters into Elites/Champions and possibly veterans depending on gear. On trash, CS/Tr/DE will be better as BQoBQ can be utilized for the higher stats/crit chance and faster animations.

In Open World PvE, it's not had to bring any target down below 50%. The real struggle is taking that health down to zero. Taking both DA and CS is ideal to cover both top and bottom halves, but if you have to choose one, I think DA is the better option.