The NEW DE and why I am liking it

A positive thread rather then all of those complaining that all Thief gets are nerfs. I will not speak to core but to DE builds as a number of changes occured there. Initial impressions.

PAYBACK delivers! This skill is sweet now. It can be combined with other traits that allow lower cooldowns and on those longer ICDS you can get this thing to trigger twice and more. The Cooldown reduction is based on the total base time of the skill after the initial reduction applied if you traited another of the lower cooldown skills. As example Thieves Guild base is 120 seconds. If you trait nothing else PAYBACK cuts this down by 24 seconds. You are going to make more kills before the next 96 seconds ticks off and ANY kills after that knock another 24 seconds off that clock. Get 2 more kills in and the Guild boys can show up every 60 seconds with relative ease. If you have Deception Cooldown traited the base drops t0 96 seconds and the Payback subract is around 19 seconds. Dagger strom if traited gets a higher uptime which can really ruin a rangers day and this just the Elites. Use it. It a go to skill.

Malicious Restoration. This thing always had an ICD that was too high . The Initial heal was high enough to SORT of make worthwhile but once it dropped to 3 condition transfer for a lower heal I never saw a use for it. Now the heal is doubled AND the ICD reasonable. That condition transfer can hurt people at to 1500 range. Better yet, use this with PAYBACK above and even with one kill for the Renewing and you got this down to a 20 second heal.

Stealth Via Stolen items. It works very well with p/p , SB , S/p and all those weapons where there no innate stealth access. The cast time is easy enough to work around and I think the ability to get that Malice attack off just by using a stolen item is fine. I am loving this with S/p power as the endurance add PLUS Vuln stacking is making a noticeable improvement in my build. While I like Quickness in this version (bqobK) that stealth attack gives enough endurance for a full dodge along with a vuln add of 10 stacks followed by a PW smack to the face.

Blinding Powder. What can I say. Yes there now an activation time But I think the added stun break worth it. Thief can really load up on stunbreaks now using skills that do far more then just break that stun. Ok this has a 40 second base ICD. Use with Deception trait that 32 seconds. Use with PAYBACK and one rkill for renewing sets this to 26 seconds.

Silent Scope Cooldown removal. There no reason a Thief can not have all the access to stealth he wants now and with the Stolen item changes , gets it without having to load up a lot of Utilities.

Free action. So much SMOOTHER now. It makes #4 kneel much more useable and the kneel skills in general are just more accessible.

Bug fixed on Standing DJ. About time. I was ready to load up on more precision sources as this thing failing to kickin was taking away what should have been sure crits and kills and giving me an enemy still running around when he should have been downed. Very noticeable.

As far as DE goes, I am having fun with this. That Payback skill in particular has me thinking of a number of builds using Utilities I had not used much before. Lower cooldowns on traps as example for Shadowtrap...A build using Thieves Guild and Ambush for minions and sharing venoms. Better Tricks because of lower cooldowns. As long as you can kill your marked enemy and trigger renewing you benefit and that enemy can be anything you can mark.

Happy Hunting!

Yup. Rifle DE feels much more fluid - much appreciate thing QOL improvements.

I typically rely on a stealth-heavy Slot Skill load out, tho don't run SA. Having even more options to activate stealth is appreciated.

Blinking in and out of stealth like the predator!

Also enjoying the addition of Vulnerability on Tactical Stike.

@babazhook.6805 said:A positive thread rather then all of those complaining that all Thief gets are nerfs. I will not speak to core but to DE builds as a number of changes occured there. Initial impressions.

PAYBACK delivers! This skill is sweet now.

I like the synergy between Payback the utility Haste and BQoBK in the open world. You cast haste then mark the target, kill target to renew your mark. This will give you so much quickness in the open world, and definitely worth taking over premeditation.

Stealth Via Stolen items. It works very well with p/p , SB , S/p and all those weapons where there no innate stealth access. The cast time is easy enough to work around and I think the ability to get that Malice attack off just by using a stolen item is fine. I am loving this with S/p power as the endurance add PLUS Vuln stacking is making a noticeable improvement in my build. While I like Quickness in this version (bqobK) that stealth attack gives enough endurance for a full dodge along with a vuln add of 10 stacks followed by a PW smack to the face.

Unfortunately the cast times ruins the stealth via stolen skills for me. If they buffer the action you take after casting stolen items like they should also do with steal then it might be usable. OR just slot the malicious strike attack without requiring stealth if malice is full and you use F2. Then F2 wouldnt be OP if reverted back into an instant cast power. OR maybe change it so you arm a malicious strike simply by dodge rolling at max malice.

@eldrjth.7384 said:

Unfortunately the cast times ruins the stealth via stolen skills for me. If they buffer the action you take after casting stolen items like they should also do with steal then it might be usable. OR just slot the malicious strike attack without requiring stealth if malice is full and you use F2. Then F2 wouldnt be OP if reverted back into an instant cast power. OR maybe change it so you arm a malicious strike simply by dodge rolling at max malice.

I found the DE stolen skills had a slight delay before the patch anyway, so there's no real change my end.

Tho I can appreciate the frustration, for folks in melee range.

For a Might granting/stacking FFoE build, the cast times are also relatively minor - since you don't want to spam your stolen skills as you can miss out, due to the 1/4 sec cast time*.

*At least, as I recall..

Agreed.

We have steal, stealth, and recharge reduction aplenty.

That stealth over five malice when you're trying to kite with rifle is clutch. With improv, haste, and binding shadows we're a threat not to be ignored.

Payback + dagger storm + on hit heals in WvW Zergs. Try it

@babazhook.6805 said:PAYBACK delivers! This skill is sweet now. It can be combined with other traits that allow lower cooldowns and on those longer ICDS you can get this thing to trigger twice and more. The Cooldown reduction is based on the total base time of the skill after the initial reduction applied if you traited another of the lower cooldown skills. As example Thieves Guild base is 120 seconds. If you trait nothing else PAYBACK cuts this down by 24 seconds. You are going to make more kills before the next 96 seconds ticks off and ANY kills after that knock another 24 seconds off that clock. Get 2 more kills in and the Guild boys can show up every 60 seconds with relative ease. If you have Deception Cooldown traited the base drops t0 96 seconds and the Payback subract is around 19 seconds. Dagger strom if traited gets a higher uptime which can really ruin a rangers day and this just the Elites. Use it. It a go to skill.

There's definitely merit to this, however, a cantrip cooldown reduction trait is still needed. Payback does nothing in boss fights.

Malicious Restoration. This thing always had an ICD that was too high . The Initial heal was high enough to SORT of make worthwhile but once it dropped to 3 condition transfer for a lower heal I never saw a use for it. Now the heal is doubled AND the ICD reasonable. That condition transfer can hurt people at to 1500 range. Better yet, use this with PAYBACK above and even with one kill for the Renewing and you got this down to a 20 second heal.

Yes, this is a great buff. It was anemic compared to Channeled Vigor.

Stealth Via Stolen items. It works very well with p/p , SB , S/p and all those weapons where there no innate stealth access. The cast time is easy enough to work around and I think the ability to get that Malice attack off just by using a stolen item is fine. I am loving this with S/p power as the endurance add PLUS Vuln stacking is making a noticeable improvement in my build. While I like Quickness in this version (bqobK) that stealth attack gives enough endurance for a full dodge along with a vuln add of 10 stacks followed by a PW smack to the face.

I'm mixed with this. On one hand, I like my P/P build having access to stealth. On the other hand, .5s casting time on top of the DE Mark casting time. Why?

Doubling the casting time is a big nerf to builds that immediately spends Malice since it is only justifiable if it grants stealth below the 5 Malice threshold.

Blinding Powder. What can I say. Yes there now an activation time But I think the added stun break worth it. Thief can really load up on stunbreaks now using skills that do far more then just break that stun. Ok this has a 40 second base ICD. Use with Deception trait that 32 seconds. Use with PAYBACK and one rkill for renewing sets this to 26 seconds.

BP being a stun break becomes a very good alternative to Shadowstep.

Silent Scope Cooldown removal. There no reason a Thief can not have all the access to stealth he wants now and with the Stolen item changes , gets it without having to load up a lot of Utilities.

Yes! This! Finally.

Free action. So much SMOOTHER now. It makes #4 kneel much more useable and the kneel skills in general are just more accessible.

The problem I had with this is it goes into the skill queue. Giving the priority for activation is indeed a great improvement.

One thing you forgot is Mercy. It no longer removes the Mark on target.

I feel like there's so much competition of usable utilities right now, whereas a month ago it was Withdraw, RFI, SStep all the way.

@"Tinnel.4369" said:I feel like there's so much competition of usable utilities right now, whereas a month ago it was Withdraw, RFI, SStep all the way.

Precisely my feeling. I have been toying with a number that I had not bothered using before and with that lower cooldown possibility a number I would never have considered are now solid choices. Now I have not tested in game but have been reflecting on this thought as it pertains to PAYBACK.

I think as far as "adding something to a group" Payback can be a big deal. I am looking at the skills that benefit groups directly or indirectly and with those lower cooldowns just how one can make themself more useful. Of direct benefit are things like SOA for the cleanse and the Venoms on a lower cooldown. Of Indirect benefit the stuff like Daggerstrom used in multiple fields. I am talking about larger group fights and zergs in WvW which most thieves tended to find they could not be of much benefit to. My thought is that given Payback triggers everytime there a renewing gaze trigger and given in a zerg fight you can mark target get renewing on death, mark target and so on at a much faster rate then in a 1v1 , it would seem to me you can fire of these skills much more quickly.

You are welcome to go and enjoy your DE dont stuff it under our noses please thank you.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:You are welcome to go and enjoy your DE dont stuff it under our noses please thank you.

What a juvenile response. You start multiple topics about how terrible things are and whine when someone starts one pointing out positive changes. You are not being FORCED to read this thread. You can start another dozen if you wish where you can complain.

Grow up.

DE was the reason why i bought Path of Fire and now i'm enjoying with my rifle so much.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:You are welcome to go and enjoy your DE dont stuff it under our noses please thank you.

It is just another comment among dozens. Yet because it is not supporting your idea you automatically focused on it. I think you should grow up. If someone didnt agree with me in my threads i took it as okay and tried to reason or understand why they think so. A quality an OP should have.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:You are welcome to go and enjoy your DE dont stuff it under our noses please thank you.

Did you just reply with what amounts to, 'No, YOU should grow up!' =)

There's definitely merit to this, however, a cantrip cooldown reduction trait is still needed. Payback does nothing in boss fights.

Prior to the Change to Payback , I would have agreed with this but two Cooldown skills in the same Traitline one of which while predicated on a kill is universal , would be too much. Boss fights are really the only place it not of great use , but that a small percentage of the game and those boss fights tend to focus on a much narrower skill set. Out of curiousity I just went to metabattle to see what was popular there for boss fights as that not my thing and could not find any that took a lower cooldown skill.

I'm mixed with this. On one hand, I like my P/P build having access to stealth. On the other hand, .5s casting time on top of the DE Mark casting time. Why?

Doubling the casting time is a big nerf to builds that immediately spends Malice since it is only justifiable if it grants stealth below the 5 Malice threshold.

I never had an issue with the MARK having a Cast time. I can only recall the smallest handful of times were this caused a miss. I also rarely used the Stolen item immediately after steal as I had sort of trained myself to build malice under the old system before doing such. As to why this done I am not sure but can speculate that in having a cast time it gives some small level of ability for this targeted reveal skills other classes have to work. IE Sic em needs a target so does nothing if a player in stealth. If there instant stealth on demand on too many skills we might be worse off long term if they suddenly decided those reveals worked on "nearbys". Added to that the ability to mark or apply a stolen item while at extreme range remains a tremendous advantage.

One thing you forgot is Mercy. It no longer removes the Mark on target.

Agreed. This is a positive change. It also very useful when fighting mesmers as once marked , it persists with the mark on target and makes it much easier to identify the real one from the clones. It also good in group fights with those that use lookalikes .

I like these changes to rifle, it kinda makes me sad that the poor implementation of some other things and the rifle as a whole makes me not want to use it.

@Scud.5067 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:You are welcome to go and enjoy your DE dont stuff it under our noses please thank you.

''NO U'' is enough ;)

@"babazhook.6805" said:

There's definitely merit to this, however, a cantrip cooldown reduction trait is still needed. Payback does nothing in boss fights.

They can add the CDR to Premeditation so you cannot have both CDR and Payback.

I'm mixed with this. On one hand, I like my P/P build having access to stealth. On the other hand, .5s casting time on top of the DE Mark casting time. Why?

Doubling the casting time is a big nerf to builds that immediately spends Malice since it is only justifiable if it grants stealth below the 5 Malice threshold.

To be honest, I have no problem with Sic Em revealing nearby targets just like Sight beyond Sights and Sneak Gyro. We're already seeing skills with area revealed, thus the increased casting time doesn't make sense to me.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:To be honest, I have no problem with Sic Em revealing nearby targets just like Sight beyond Sights and Sneak Gyro. We're already seeing skills with area revealed, thus the increased casting time doesn't make sense to me.

Tbh I just treat the stolen skill like a super long range cloak and dagger that I don't have to worry about missing, and use it to stealth just after my stealth would expire as you would with a D/D set.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:To be honest, I have no problem with Sic Em revealing nearby targets just like Sight beyond Sights and Sneak Gyro. We're already seeing skills with area revealed, thus the increased casting time doesn't make sense to me.

The only way it would make sense to me is if F2 grants stealth regardless of the Malice level. Having the extra activation time for nothing makes zero sense. I'm basically being punished for not waiting for max Malice.

If this is optional and tied to a trait, I wouldn't mind it. I would simply not take that trait, but this is forced on to me.

Best patch since POF release for DE Rifle, now i can choose to keep pressuring everyone to pop cd/roll by spamming DJ or pressuring them w 3x round burst. Not to mention that my dps on PvE also increased by large margin as well

@"Jack Redline.5379" said:You are welcome to go and enjoy your DE dont stuff it under our noses please thank you.

Like in 5th of July you yourself started a thread about how DE doesn't work, and how Anet should give us a better Elite specialisation. You wrote:

"Summary = Deadeye is Potato class that that can achieve from lower to mildly middle performance, it is hard to play it and if someone says d/d deadeye is cool and good refer them to me i will convert them to power staff DD or power d/d DD, or even better d/d condi DD (with traps)thank youPersonal scream into silence included= For Mordremoths sake remove Deadeye and give us a propper elite Anet Thank you"

Now that they actually made DE better, you complain in this thread and ask us not to stuff it under your nose? What's the problem now then? Too bad it's not the specialisation you wanted but it's a one that lot of us are enjoying from, and will continue to enjoy to foreseeable future whether you like it or not.

@Frozey.8513 said:

yes i said DE is horrible and yes they have changed it. But as you quoted me. I did say I will convert those who think De is good to DD and i still stand to it. I will convert ppl who think DE is good to DD because of simple rule = DD > DE. Maybe not so much after this last update. But still it is true and i will stand to this as i always have. I didnt want them to remake DE to make it better. I want them to take it away and give us something that makes sense for a thief. i know they wont do it and that is why i rant and i will rant from now on until i die.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Frozey.8513 said:

DE makes more sense for a Thief to specialise in, rather than DD essentially because DE tries to stay stealthy while DD is giving that up. Then again both of those specialisations are fun to play, so to people who don't care about such a background theme none of that does matter at all. Sure we can hope that in next expansion our Thieves can finally specialise in being Pickpockets, or maybe even Burglars, but until then arguing that DE doesn't suit for a Thief doesn't hold true at all.

Rifle is love, rifle live and dev recently bring lots of love for DE Rifle. I hope they can also properly adjust the value for premeditation & fire for effect since those trait r rather underwhelming at this point.

Also i believe that making renewing gaze trigger when you re-mark the target would make payback even more viable option.