Need help landing backstabs. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Need help landing backstabs.

charliezarded.1892charliezarded.1892 Member ✭✭
edited August 7, 2018 in Thief

I'm new to Thief in WvW, and for the life of me, I can't consistently land backstabs. I was wondering if there were any helpful pointers more experienced thieves could give me. Thanks.

Comments

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    many use shadowsteps mid stab animation, against less experienced players you can aswell use shadowshot -> backstab. with long stealth you can try to predict enemy movement and just let them walk through you while you use backstab.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is there any situation you're finding yourself having trouble with? What build are you running?

    There's a lot that can go into and counter backstab; as mentioned, shadowstep effects have no animation and thus can be used mid-stab, and since backstab has a hitbox, it will land on the target when combined. All projectiles (like Shadow Shot) also have a travel time, too, so you can cast them mid-flight and start the stab animation and arrive stabbing. This works for shortbow 5 as well if you have swap (into MH dagger) available.

    Other options include running through the target (and stabbing just as you pass through them to let the dagger's hitbox clip into them while you're technically standing "behind" them).

    There are other tips and tricks but many aren't specific to the thief per se; it's mostly otherwise just practice and trying to read where your foe is going to move/what they're going to do.

    It's gotten a lot harder since HoT and PoF, though, as many professions can pretty-easily shut down backstab attempts if they understand how to fight against thief.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    >

    Other options include running through the target (and stabbing just as you pass through them to let the dagger's hitbox clip into them while you're technically standing "behind" them).

    That's a good idea to start out getting a feel for connecting. Play like a tank for a few calmly turning, pulling, and placing target until you can feel what they're thinking and then switch to dps to capitalize on your tanking. Not every beat has to be filled with a skill or whatever, it's alright to mess around to watch and learn animations and all that for awhile until time is on your side.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • charliezarded.1892charliezarded.1892 Member ✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    I've been playing a very unmeta, possibly even bottom tier build just because I love the way D/D feels, and I want to get the highest backstabs I can.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl0MhSnYhTwxJw/EHEFlPI+hiYnljWAw7yEYCA-j1RBQBZU5gZUCmnTAQCV/5K7PK5wjeAA8AAIFQEbBA-w

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    I feared you were playing D/D. There's not much to say here; I've been playing D/D core with Assassin's Signet for 6 years; it's the least-reliable kit in the entire game of all professions. No matter how good you get at it, it will be wildly inconsistent into most post-HoT matchups and a number of core ones which have received reworks and love since then. There's nothing you can do to force a backstab if your opponent understands what to do except running Scorpion Wire and getting lucky with the direction your target is facing + them not having stability, a block, etc.

    Imho, I'd Drop Shadow Arts for Acrobatics or even Daredevil without a grandmaster traited (base dodge to avoid the Exhaustion debuff from UC and to prevent bounding dodge/Lotus Training from cleaving and self-revealing) if you're looking for durability, or otherwise just opt into DA for further damage and engage pressure with the weakness it provides on steal, free immob on Panic Strike to negate dodges, and learn to utilize Improvisation for sustain. At the very least, drop Rejuv for Rending Shade or Cloaked in Shadow, as Rejuv only really proves mathematically effective for D/P or builds focusing on maintaining lots of stealth uptime. I dislike SA as a whole for D/D because the movespeed on Hidden thief helps solve part of D/D's problem (lack of mobility), but stealth-on-steal counteracts the entire purpose of playing D/D in the first place: damage from Cloak and Dagger.

    I'd drop Hidden Killer for NQ with the precision you have. HK works better for builds running Valkyrie with a lower innate crit chance which are more focused on raw health. NQ bumps your damage and thanks to Twin Fangs + ToTC's fury on steal, you'll already have a 96% crit chance from behind with permanent fury.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Thank you! These are all wonderful tips.

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    many use shadowsteps mid stab animation, against less experienced players you can aswell use shadowshot -> backstab. with long stealth you can try to predict enemy movement and just let them walk through you while you use backstab.

    I never knew this. What does the skill rotation look like? Just backstabbing mid animation of shadowshot?

    Aren't there other tricks with shadowshot as well?

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    many use shadowsteps mid stab animation, against less experienced players you can aswell use shadowshot -> backstab. with long stealth you can try to predict enemy movement and just let them walk through you while you use backstab.

    I never knew this. What does the skill rotation look like? Just backstabbing mid animation of shadowshot?

    Aren't there other tricks with shadowshot as well?

    As I mentioned above, anything can be casted during the flight of a projectile and it'll connect/combo. This includes OOC stealth -> Shortbow 5 to target -> swap weapons + begin backstab animation mid-flight -> you'll arrive teleporting the backstab + blind into your target with weapon swap available since nothing began combat until after you'd already swapped to MH dagger.

    You can even do this with ~600+-range scorpion wire into skills like Hook Strike - I've personally played CC-lock staff Daredevil which will start the stealth attack animation before the damage/pull on wire registers, and the foe will be pulled into the active hitbox of Hook Strike and also knocked down.

    This exists for all professions with shadowstep and projectile components; a ranger can first-cast Hunter's Shot and mid-flight swap GS to gain stealth and move using GS3 then immediately swap back to longbow.

    Shadow Shot -> Stab just has a problem against alert players because projectiles are visible even coming from stealthed sources (except mesmer mirror blade at point-blank because it's bugged), so if you see the projectile midair coming at you, a shadow shot-stab can be negated pretty easily.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    many use shadowsteps mid stab animation, against less experienced players you can aswell use shadowshot -> backstab. with long stealth you can try to predict enemy movement and just let them walk through you while you use backstab.

    I never knew this. What does the skill rotation look like? Just backstabbing mid animation of shadowshot?

    Aren't there other tricks with shadowshot as well?

    As I mentioned above, anything can be casted during the flight of a projectile and it'll connect/combo. This includes OOC stealth -> Shortbow 5 to target -> swap weapons + begin backstab animation mid-flight -> you'll arrive teleporting the backstab + blind into your target with weapon swap available since nothing began combat until after you'd already swapped to MH dagger.

    i do similar to teleport golems in WvW vertically, shoot and enter golem to port :)

    read this, become a better player now.

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    many use shadowsteps mid stab animation, against less experienced players you can aswell use shadowshot -> backstab. with long stealth you can try to predict enemy movement and just let them walk through you while you use backstab.

    I never knew this. What does the skill rotation look like? Just backstabbing mid animation of shadowshot?

    Aren't there other tricks with shadowshot as well?

    As I mentioned above, anything can be casted during the flight of a projectile and it'll connect/combo. This includes OOC stealth -> Shortbow 5 to target -> swap weapons + begin backstab animation mid-flight -> you'll arrive teleporting the backstab + blind into your target with weapon swap available since nothing began combat until after you'd already swapped to MH dagger.

    You can even do this with ~600+-range scorpion wire into skills like Hook Strike - I've personally played CC-lock staff Daredevil which will start the stealth attack animation before the damage/pull on wire registers, and the foe will be pulled into the active hitbox of Hook Strike and also knocked down.

    This exists for all professions with shadowstep and projectile components; a ranger can first-cast Hunter's Shot and mid-flight swap GS to gain stealth and move using GS3 then immediately swap back to longbow.

    Shadow Shot -> Stab just has a problem against alert players because projectiles are visible even coming from stealthed sources (except mesmer mirror blade at point-blank because it's bugged), so if you see the projectile midair coming at you, a shadow shot-stab can be negated pretty easily.

    That is super interesting. If you are NA could I possible get a demonstration in game sometime?

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sure.
    /10char

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • @charliezarded.1892 said:
    I've been playing a very unmeta, possibly even bottom tier build just because I love the way D/D feels, and I want to get the highest backstabs I can.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl0MhSnYhTwxJw/EHEFlPI+hiYnljWAw7yEYCA-j1RBQBZU5gZUCmnTAQCV/5K7PK5wjeAA8AAIFQEbBA-w

    In WvW, I also use D/D and I use the Daredevil Rune with Valkyrie set so I get used to dodge rolling in stealth through my target for a backstab. To get the highest backstab, after I use Cloak & Dagger, I dodge behind the target and pop Signet of Shadows. This applies 15 stacks of vulnerability.

    (Note: with Daredevil Rune, you don't need to spec for Hidden Killer and can pick up No Quarter instead for more Ferocity for higher crit damage).

    My build is closer to this: Valkyrie Daredevil Rune

    The Deadeye version of this build replaces Signet of Shadows with Binding Shadow for a high stack of vulnerability, plus the bonus damage for Malicious Backstab. The caveat with the Deadeye is it has a very poor mobility for a large WvW map. If mobility is not an issue, you can deal a lot of damage from close or far range whichever weapon you prefer.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • charliezarded.1892charliezarded.1892 Member ✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @charliezarded.1892 said:
    I've been playing a very unmeta, possibly even bottom tier build just because I love the way D/D feels, and I want to get the highest backstabs I can.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl0MhSnYhTwxJw/EHEFlPI+hiYnljWAw7yEYCA-j1RBQBZU5gZUCmnTAQCV/5K7PK5wjeAA8AAIFQEbBA-w

    In WvW, I also use D/D and I use the Daredevil Rune with Valkyrie set so I get used to dodge rolling in stealth through my target for a backstab. To get the highest backstab, after I use Cloak & Dagger, I dodge behind the target and pop Signet of Shadows. This applies 15 stacks of vulnerability.

    (Note: with Daredevil Rune, you don't need to spec for Hidden Killer and can pick up No Quarter instead for more Ferocity for higher crit damage).

    My build is closer to this: Valkyrie Daredevil Rune

    The Deadeye version of this build replaces Signet of Shadows with Binding Shadow for a high stack of vulnerability, plus the bonus damage for Malicious Backstab. The caveat with the Deadeye is it has a very poor mobility for a large WvW map. If mobility is not an issue, you can deal a lot of damage from close or far range whichever weapon you prefer.

    How high are your normal backstabs with the valkyrie daredevil rune build?

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @charliezarded.1892 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @charliezarded.1892 said:
    I've been playing a very unmeta, possibly even bottom tier build just because I love the way D/D feels, and I want to get the highest backstabs I can.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl0MhSnYhTwxJw/EHEFlPI+hiYnljWAw7yEYCA-j1RBQBZU5gZUCmnTAQCV/5K7PK5wjeAA8AAIFQEbBA-w

    In WvW, I also use D/D and I use the Daredevil Rune with Valkyrie set so I get used to dodge rolling in stealth through my target for a backstab. To get the highest backstab, after I use Cloak & Dagger, I dodge behind the target and pop Signet of Shadows. This applies 15 stacks of vulnerability.

    (Note: with Daredevil Rune, you don't need to spec for Hidden Killer and can pick up No Quarter instead for more Ferocity for higher crit damage).

    My build is closer to this: Valkyrie Daredevil Rune

    The Deadeye version of this build replaces Signet of Shadows with Binding Shadow for a high stack of vulnerability, plus the bonus damage for Malicious Backstab. The caveat with the Deadeye is it has a very poor mobility for a large WvW map. If mobility is not an issue, you can deal a lot of damage from close or far range whichever weapon you prefer.

    How high are your normal backstabs with the valkyrie daredevil rune build?

    It's probably about 8-10k on most targets with that setup. Given the low crit chance I think it'd remain smarter to use Acrobatics over SA for more rune procs and opt for Signet of Agility over Scorpion wire as the better condi cleanse, endurance refill (more negation and more crits), which also passively improves precision for a higher resting crit rate as well.

    This build sacrifices a lot for not a lot of benefit imho. Assassin's Signet will deal more damage if used offensively than SoS; the power gains are proportionally higher, even if opting out of NQ for HK, and there's no counterplay to the damage component from AS as opposed to SoS due to Resistance or cleanses dealing with the vuln. The build however depends on SoS to get in combat in order for rune of the Daredevil to actually work (as the conditions being applied before the dodge roll is critical for the whole thing to have any effect), and then burns a dodge pre-emptively, and then thanks to Hidden Thief, can't utilize the damage of CnD at the start of the fight.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @charliezarded.1892 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @charliezarded.1892 said:
    I've been playing a very unmeta, possibly even bottom tier build just because I love the way D/D feels, and I want to get the highest backstabs I can.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl0MhSnYhTwxJw/EHEFlPI+hiYnljWAw7yEYCA-j1RBQBZU5gZUCmnTAQCV/5K7PK5wjeAA8AAIFQEbBA-w

    In WvW, I also use D/D and I use the Daredevil Rune with Valkyrie set so I get used to dodge rolling in stealth through my target for a backstab. To get the highest backstab, after I use Cloak & Dagger, I dodge behind the target and pop Signet of Shadows. This applies 15 stacks of vulnerability.

    (Note: with Daredevil Rune, you don't need to spec for Hidden Killer and can pick up No Quarter instead for more Ferocity for higher crit damage).

    My build is closer to this: Valkyrie Daredevil Rune

    The Deadeye version of this build replaces Signet of Shadows with Binding Shadow for a high stack of vulnerability, plus the bonus damage for Malicious Backstab. The caveat with the Deadeye is it has a very poor mobility for a large WvW map. If mobility is not an issue, you can deal a lot of damage from close or far range whichever weapon you prefer.

    How high are your normal backstabs with the valkyrie daredevil rune build?

    It's probably about 8-10k on most targets with that setup. Given the low crit chance I think it'd remain smarter to use Acrobatics over SA for more rune procs and opt for Signet of Agility over Scorpion wire as the better condi cleanse, endurance refill (more negation and more crits), which also passively improves precision for a higher resting crit rate as well.

    This build sacrifices a lot for not a lot of benefit imho. Assassin's Signet will deal more damage if used offensively than SoS; the power gains are proportionally higher, even if opting out of NQ for HK, and there's no counterplay to the damage component from AS as opposed to SoS due to Resistance or cleanses dealing with the vuln. The build however depends on SoS to get in combat in order for rune of the Daredevil to actually work (as the conditions being applied before the dodge roll is critical for the whole thing to have any effect), and then burns a dodge pre-emptively, and then thanks to Hidden Thief, can't utilize the damage of CnD at the start of the fight.

    Yeah thats what I assumed, my goal is to get the meatiest backstabs without playing DE, because I don't like how malicious backstab works.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @charliezarded.1892 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @charliezarded.1892 said:
    I've been playing a very unmeta, possibly even bottom tier build just because I love the way D/D feels, and I want to get the highest backstabs I can.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl0MhSnYhTwxJw/EHEFlPI+hiYnljWAw7yEYCA-j1RBQBZU5gZUCmnTAQCV/5K7PK5wjeAA8AAIFQEbBA-w

    In WvW, I also use D/D and I use the Daredevil Rune with Valkyrie set so I get used to dodge rolling in stealth through my target for a backstab. To get the highest backstab, after I use Cloak & Dagger, I dodge behind the target and pop Signet of Shadows. This applies 15 stacks of vulnerability.

    (Note: with Daredevil Rune, you don't need to spec for Hidden Killer and can pick up No Quarter instead for more Ferocity for higher crit damage).

    My build is closer to this: Valkyrie Daredevil Rune

    The Deadeye version of this build replaces Signet of Shadows with Binding Shadow for a high stack of vulnerability, plus the bonus damage for Malicious Backstab. The caveat with the Deadeye is it has a very poor mobility for a large WvW map. If mobility is not an issue, you can deal a lot of damage from close or far range whichever weapon you prefer.

    How high are your normal backstabs with the valkyrie daredevil rune build?

    It's probably about 8-10k on most targets with that setup. Given the low crit chance I think it'd remain smarter to use Acrobatics over SA for more rune procs and opt for Signet of Agility over Scorpion wire as the better condi cleanse, endurance refill (more negation and more crits), which also passively improves precision for a higher resting crit rate as well.

    Yes, you can definitely swap SA with Acro, that would work too. The only problem with that is you are sacrificing condition defense for more damage.

    This build sacrifices a lot for not a lot of benefit imho. Assassin's Signet will deal more damage if used offensively than SoS; the power gains are proportionally higher, even if opting out of NQ for HK, and there's no counterplay to the damage component from AS as opposed to SoS due to Resistance or cleanses dealing with the vuln. The build however depends on SoS to get in combat in order for rune of the Daredevil to actually work (as the conditions being applied before the dodge roll is critical for the whole thing to have any effect), and then burns a dodge pre-emptively, and then thanks to Hidden Thief, can't utilize the damage of CnD at the start of the fight.

    SoS applies Blind and Weakness in addition to Vuln. This is both offensive and defensive signet. Resistance is removed by Rending Shade on Backstab, so that is non-issue. I also never had an issue with Hidden Thief.

    Scorpion Wire is a personal preference. You can definitely swap it with Assassin's Signet.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    SoA's condition cleansing was buffed; it's now the best bulk-cleanse on thief as a whole and still refunds a dodge roll. An Acrobatics thief can then opt for IR for a follow-through AA chain or two which is the best defensive option available to the thief post-backstab - way better than SoS's blind or weakness, or can opt for Pain Response for further cleansing.
    RShade makes SoS work which lets the Rune of the Daredevil work for SA which lets NQ over HK work for valk backstabs which allows SA to be semi-decent as a defensive option in the first place, but still cuts off the use of CnD for free damage. The build idea is there but it really just begs the question: Why not play D/P?

    It's a very intricate and very inflexible way to play, to which Acro and SoA+AS just simply does the same combo but with more damage, and better on-demand defenses, even with still trying to use rune of the Daredevil.

    If opting to HK one could just swap Scholars and reap all the crit chance, which strictly from a backstab damage perspective is then dealing more damage than Daredevil + NQ. When factoring in CnD and Assassin's Signet over SoS, the combo damage more than doubles.

    I get the synergy, but the build is very far from robust and is almost all situations going to be outperformed by Acro; it only really proves more effective into circumstances where the thief misplays CnD/BV.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    SoA's condition cleansing was buffed; it's now the best bulk-cleanse on thief as a whole and still refunds a dodge roll. An Acrobatics thief can then opt for IR for a follow-through AA chain or two which is the best defensive option available to the thief post-backstab - way better than SoS's blind or weakness, or can opt for Pain Response for further cleansing.

    I agree about the bulk-cleanse, but the fact that conditions are so easy to reapply, it limits the Backstab opportunity. With Acro instead of SA, once my cleanse is on CD, I have no choice but to bail once conditions are reapplied. With SA, I can stay in the fight which gives more Backstab opportunities.

    Pain Response has a 16s ICD and health treshhold of 75%, plus you have to take a hit for it to trigger, which is worst than Shadow's Embrace which I can cleanse conditions every 3-5 seconds.

    RShade makes SoS work which lets the Rune of the Daredevil work for SA which lets NQ over HK work for valk backstabs which allows SA to be semi-decent as a defensive option in the first place, but still cuts off the use of CnD for free damage. The build idea is there but it really just begs the question: Why not play D/P?

    D/P is a no go with this build - it cost too much to go in stealth.

    It's a very intricate and very inflexible way to play, to which Acro and SoA+AS just simply does the same combo but with more damage, and better on-demand defenses, even with still trying to use rune of the Daredevil.

    Totally agree only if you are fighting a target dummy that doesn't fight back, evade, block, heal, and apply buffs. To get a backstab, you need to be in the position to do so. Both 4s stealth and 50% movement from Hidden Thief allows you to get in that position. While at the same time cleansing conditions and reducing damage. You cannot get all that from Acro I'm afraid. Just the 50% movement speed in stealth is enough to justify picking SA.

    If opting to HK one could just swap Scholars and reap all the crit chance, which strictly from a backstab damage perspective is then dealing more damage than Daredevil + NQ. When factoring in CnD and Assassin's Signet over SoS, the combo damage more than doubles.

    That is true, in terms of damage, which is what the OP's build has. The build is counter-intuitive though to get that much Precisions from Marauder and keep HK. Might as well stack up on Valkyrie gears - more power, more ferocity, and more vitality. I'm still cringing on the base toughness.

    I get the synergy, but the build is very far from robust and is almost all situations going to be outperformed by Acro; it only really proves more effective into circumstances where the thief misplays CnD/BV.

    Well, the build is tweaked for WvW, not Raid.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • I messed around with a backstab build for WvW before. Went Shadow Arts with d/p to perma stealth and then did a huge backstab to instantly kill people. Fun times.

    When landing backstabs try to remember some people immediately dodge after your steal and then to backstab after their dodge. If you backstab immediately try to mash 1 as you get a second backstab just before stealth runs out (depending on how much stealth you had).

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