kalla vs jalis?

Have anyone done the numbers to see how they compare? mainly thinking of kalla spirits vs hammers for condi rev. The spirits needs a lot more work to be effective, and you may get unlucky and having to deal with no path issues. Im myself on the fence about the spirits, i concede they have uses. But possibly no path issues, having to click a lot more to put them down is irritating. Plus having to watch for them expiering so they can be reapplied. I know you can speed up casting them with a setting in options, but they may end up in funny places due to the -very hard- to see cursor having run off, or gotting lost in the spam on screen in larger groups.

I could also be interested in knowing how devastation fares vs renegade. Though for renegade, it would be mainly versus kalla's fervor as the renegade line only improves bleeding.

In general usage, Jalis beats Kalla. Half of the renegade summons require teammates to work, particularly the damaging ones. You can use Icerazor and Darkrazor while solo, but their damage output is going to be lower than vengeful hammers. For kalla to beat jalis, you'll need the following conditions to be met:

(1) You're in a group(2) In a fight where you'll stick close together.(3) With teammates competent enough to do so(4) Against enemies with little to no CC(5) And only fighting one enemy (Razorclaw only)

Without all of those conditions being met, you'll find out exactly how bad each of the summons are. For example, in cm100 Skorvald and Arkk have a knockback component attached to nearly every attack, rendering Soulcleave utterly useless for the fights. Worst part is, this applies to Breakrazor as well, so you lose 42% out of your heal..

I'm not sure if anyone has run the exact numbers, since the buffs only apply to player teammates and it makes calculating DPS difficult. However, nobody has ever needed to run the exact numbers, because the sheer logistical problems that the summons face means you don't need a calculator. You can just see that Soulcleave is on her butt, doing nothing to contribute.

It's just the peak of ineptitude that they saw fit to allow our summons, which already cost energy to maintain, to be targetable at all for CC and damage.

You should run both.Both can utilize Kalla favor spamming and grant 25 stacks of might to party quickly due to multi hit skills.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Have anyone done the numbers to see how they compare? mainly thinking of kalla spirits vs hammers for condi rev. The spirits needs a lot more work to be effective, and you may get unlucky and having to deal with no path issues. Im myself on the fence about the spirits, i concede they have uses. But possibly no path issues, having to click a lot more to put them down is irritating. Plus having to watch for them expiering so they can be reapplied. I know you can speed up casting them with a setting in options, but they may end up in funny places due to the -very hard- to see cursor having run off, or gotting lost in the spam on screen in larger groups.

I could also be interested in knowing how devastation fares vs renegade. Though for renegade, it would be mainly versus kalla's fervor as the renegade line only improves bleeding.

Jalis is better by far. Kalla costs too much energy and messes up your rotations.

Jalis > kalla.Mainly because jalis skills can be trusted way more than kalla's silly goons who dies/cc/out of range and do nothing.

@LucianDK.8615 said:

I know you can speed up casting them with a setting in options, but they may end up in funny places due to the -very hard- to see cursor having run off, or gotting lost in the spam on screen in larger groups.

I know I mentioned "Instant" which is what I've been using before PoF but I've settled on using "Fast" target indicator. You basically hold the button/hotkey such as Sevenshot or summons, then release it to place it down. It's just a hair slower than instant but you get better accuracy on positioning theses skills. Plus, it can help prevent whiffing the hard to land shots/summon. You can also cancel it with escape if say, you are trying to place a summon and your target ports away. It is still 1 button press to use, it's just on-release instead of on-press.

Hrm, seems ive used it wrongly then. Wasnt aware you could just hold the button down.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:In general usage, Jalis beats Kalla. Half of the renegade summons require teammates to work, particularly the damaging ones. You can use Icerazor and Darkrazor while solo, but their damage output is going to be lower than vengeful hammers. For kalla to beat jalis, you'll need the following conditions to be met:

(1) You're in a group(2) In a fight where you'll stick close together.(3) With teammates competent enough to do so(4) Against enemies with little to no CC(5) And only fighting one enemy (Razorclaw only)

Without all of those conditions being met, you'll find out exactly how bad each of the summons are. For example, in cm100 Skorvald and Arkk have a knockback component attached to nearly every attack, rendering Soulcleave utterly useless for the fights. Worst part is, this applies to Breakrazor as well, so you lose 42% out of your heal..

I'm not sure if anyone has run the exact numbers, since the buffs only apply to player teammates and it makes calculating DPS difficult. However, nobody has ever needed to run the exact numbers, because the sheer logistical problems that the summons face means you don't need a calculator. You can just see that Soulcleave is on her butt, doing nothing to contribute.

Renegade is so objectively bad that I get the feeling that whoever made it has never played gw2 for more than the amount of hours required by contract

Quite disheartening, yes. But it indeed seems that kallas fervor is the only reason for why we would take renegade at all.

The summons are an interesting idea, but need much work. I've been trying to make condi renegade work in wvw. So far, I've realized that the daze/stunbreak summon is amazing when it works. I watched a weaver become perma interrupted as he tried to fight me in it. It was an easy fight.

The others? I don't really use them much I'll be honest. F2 gets used when kiting and F4 gets used when I need my heal to come back faster, but f3 never.

soulcleave is decent but doesnt benefit a condi build enough to be worthwhile except as a filler to try to keep you alive until malyx is back up.

Fervor is great, as viper weaps/armor + tblazer trinks, it works well, but thats about it.Shortbow is ok for the knockdown, but meh.

I did a long bounty train last night and had a blast with Kalla. It seemed like I was a lot more useful too. As far as numbers I couldn't tell but it seemed like when I wasn't being chain knocked-down or outside of any of the 10000 annoying legendary bounty mechanics I was putting out pretty good numbers!

So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

It pains me to see how the rev forums are.Do any of you realize how much the new orders add?Or how much absurd damage some of the summons grant?Or how whacky it is to have 20% more condi damage?

Kalla may not be optimal all the time as a legend, but her traitline is easily a must have for a dps build.Actually! Its good for power, for condi, and for healing even! Not great for power, but good.

It's really not. The only notable thing is Kalla's Fervor. The weapon has a hard time finding a place anywhere due to the awkward skills, and it isn't conductive to how the renegade is supposed to play. The Stance is full of inconsistent skills that fight to be useful anywhere, suffering from numerous practical problems that make them situational at best. The function skills are too expensive for what they offer, and they don't offer much. Most of the traits are mediocre at best. The specialization is little more than a boost to condi builds. It isn't even that good as a healer, except in select circumstances. What the Revenant needed was a boost to power damage, instead Renegade just contributes to condi dominance.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:It's really not. The only notable thing is Kalla's Fervor. The weapon has a hard time finding a place anywhere due to the awkward skills, and it isn't conductive to how the renegade is supposed to play. The Stance is full of inconsistent skills that fight to be useful anywhere, suffering from numerous practical problems that make them situational at best. The function skills are too expensive for what they offer, and they don't offer much. Most of the traits are mediocre at best. The specialization is little more than a boost to condi builds. It isn't even that good as a healer, except in select circumstances. What the Revenant needed was a boost to power damage, instead Renegade just contributes to condi dominance.

I disagree. Herald should be the power elite spec. Problem is they nerfed power revenant to hell courtesy of PvP. I still remember my beta weekend when unrelenting assault was doing 18k damage and my autoattacks were hitting 24% harder. I also remember my facet of nature being 50% increased boon duration.

What they need to do is remove those nerfs from PvE and power herald will be back in force. Buff autoattack damage by 25% in PvE only and restore Unrelenting assault to its beta cooldown and damage values.

Kalla traitline would be fine as well if the shortbow wasn't total garbage, because then all those powerful bleed traits would be relevant, especially if they removed energy costs off weaponskills so we could swap between mace and shortbow for PvE rotations.

The summons need to be invulnerable and Soulcleave summit needs cost reduction, while the citadel order skills need to cost no energy. Voila, Kalla fixed.

@Ertrak.9506 said:So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

You are unclear there. You say not dropping devastation, then saying invocation is the way to go.

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Ertrak.9506 said:So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

Corruption, Invocation, Renegade traitlines. What's unclear there?

@Zenith.7301 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Ertrak.9506 said:So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

You say: You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.Then you say: I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

Also, I was of the understanding that while invo might outedge deva slightly, the group buff from deva in a team pushes it ahead along theres no other revs with deva.

@LucianDK.8615 said:You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

I think he meant to say "want to drop", instead of saying "was not to drop"; which would mean to keep devastation.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Also, I was of the understanding that while invo might outedge deva slightly, the group buff from deva in a team pushes it ahead along theres no other revs with deva.

That's my understanding too. One rev, use invocation. Two revs means one should use invocation and the other devastation.

@DKShang.8792 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

I think he meant to say "want to drop", instead of saying "was not to drop"; which would mean to keep devastation.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Also, I was of the understanding that while invo might outedge deva slightly, the group buff from deva in a team pushes it ahead along theres no other revs with deva.

That's my understanding too. One rev, use invocation. Two revs means one should use invocation and the other devastation.

Yeap, that's my understanding. Also, a clarification on my comment. When I said one rev, I actually meant to say "when you are not in a group" . When you are alone. I'm just happy I can type anything intelligible this early from my phone. lol

Kalla beats Jalis in a group... Solo, I guess technically Jalis beats Kalla? But I've just been running Kalla since in PoF Open World play everything dies before I run out of Mallyx energy anyways. The only time I have to even swap stances is on like Bounties or World Events, and there's enough people at those to take advantage of Kalla.

@Ertrak.9506 said:So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

Shouldn't that be the other way around? Devastation for Raids/Invocation for Solo/fractals? Most raid groups I know would rather just bring another Firebrand if the Renegade isn't even bothering to run AP.

You lose 7% condi damage for yourself from dropping Invo, but your sub gains 15% critical damage...

I could imagine kalla have some use in openworld pve like bounty runs. But fractals that relies a lot more on cc, the spirits will be easilly impaired due to being so vulnerable.

And for world events it really doesnt matter what you run. I think jalis wins out still for sheer ease of use of hammers and that you dont have to constantly place spirits here and there and risking failing due to no path available.