List of Problem Traits/Skills + Possible Solutions (In-Depth) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

List of Problem Traits/Skills + Possible Solutions (In-Depth)

shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

There are several dominant builds in the game that completely destroy build diversity in higher tier matches. These meta builds have overwhelming damage and sustain coupled with ridiculous utility and/or mobility.

In this thread, I will list some of the most problematic skills for the classes I am most familiar with (and the reasons why I believe they are issues) and some suggestions to fix them in hopes that it will help put these builds back in line and give the PvP population a better understanding of WHY these builds are overpowered.

Hopefully, this thread will lead to a healthy balance discussion and catch the attention of a certain @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or other Anet dev to pass on to the rest of the balance team.

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Comments

  • these are all right on except for the one wolf pack solution (stunbreak and stab). soulbeast absolutely does not need another stunbreak or stab.

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭

    Look at you future anet dev

    Twitch | YouTube

    When will DH be buffed? Age old question

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    Ineptitude - I don't really see a problem with this, you need to get 3 clones which can be easily cleaved to negate the damage.

    Blinding Dissipation - "Every time a mesmer shatters, every single one of their clones will apply blind for 3-5 seconds " No, it doesn't. Read the tooltip, or better yet play it yourself if you don't believe me instead of being misinformed about what it does before calling for nerfs to the skill.

    Duelist’s Discipline - You're complaining about bleeding? It's like the weakest hitting condition in the game. Not to mention that your argument is based on more than just duelist discipline but sharper images as well? What kind of logic is that? These 40 skills together have good synergy so therefore nerf Duelists Discipline, good one. You have to run high crit to even compliment sharper images so you're giving up survivability to run high chance to crit with bleed? Good luck with that build.

    Sharper Images - Again, it's bleeding, based on crit no less, they might as well be tickling you. And if you allow clones to kill you with the passive bleeding proc on crit, then you deserve to die. Obviously the duelist can stack up bleeds along with the trait with the right cc, but the duelist has a obvious tell, 1/2 cast and is easily avoidable.

    Infinite Horizon - Of course you don't mention that you need max clones to get the max amount of damage from the trait, on top of the fact that the tell is HUGE. Moving on.

    Elusive Mind : Personally I think elusive mind should break stun, but should be on a cd, 20+ or more. Remove the exhaustion.

    Mirage Cloak - I'd be okay with them removing dodge while stunned if they were to remove the exhaustion on EM and put it on a pretty hefty cooldown instead. Otherwise we'd agree to disagree.

    illusionary Ambush: Strike number 2, this is the second time you've been wrong on this list about the simple functionality of what the skills or traits do. Please refer me to the part where illusionary Ambush breaks stun. I'll wait.

    Axes of Symmetry - I agree that this skill does too much with one skill. Personally they need to split it up all of the functionality between lingering thoughts and axes of symmetry.

    But overall this feels like you're just desperately grasping for straws. You didn't even know the functionality of 2 out of the 9 things you listed, on top of the fact that you can't even single out the imperfections with one skill without including another in your reasoning of why it's strong. Good effort, bad execution.

    Ah, you're right about Blinding Dissipation. I tested all of these out in game and referenced + linked the wiki to double check when I was typing them but I think I was standing too close to the Golem so the blind still applied.

    As for Illusionary Ambush, the skill isn't a stunbreak but it can still be used while cc'd.

    In regards to Sharper Images and Duelist's Discipline, I linked every other bleed-on-attack trait in the game. ALL of them were 33% chance on CRITICAL hits. Mesmer is the only exception with 100% chance on hit/crit. Thus, all of those builds also have to run higher crit chance in exchange for survivability. Again, mesmer is the odd one out.

    I will update the posts. As for listing multiple skills together, the synergy between traits/skills is what causes meta builds to be as strong as they are.

    Of course, like most mesmer players, you don't see anything wrong with the class. However, I attempted to address all of the problems in ALL of the current meta builds that I believe are causing issues (that means ranger too).

    Also I wasn't aware that being able to do something while you're stunned means it's a stun break, silly me. And of course I think there's things wrong with the class, but the majority of the things you listed can be easily refuted. And good job I guess you listed your own class, am I supposed to take it that you're implying that you're unbiased by doing so? I've made plenty of videos and forum post suggesting nerfs to mesmer. Just because I don't agree with the majority of your poorly thought out argument doesn't mean I'm biased. If I were to make a thread about suggesting nerfs or buffs to ranger, I'd atleast read the kitten skills at the very least.

    Like I said, minor mistake on the stunbreak portion of my thread, I fixed it.

    I spent a few hours typing all of this up and mesmer was the last one I got to. Forgive me if I missed a thing or two. ^^

    I'm fairly unbiased. I play multiple classes, with ranger being my main. I think I have a pretty good understanding what makes the meta builds strong since I can play them all in plat 2+ and maintain my rating. Not to mention I barely log on anymore, don't play in any tournaments, and don't have any reason or personal gain for nerfing one class harder than another. I made this to try and help other people understand what's overpowered atm and give explanations as to why I believe they are.

    Of course, this thread is based off of my opinions shaped from my PERSONAL experiences playing this game since release. They will undoubtedly differ from others'. I'm not saying I'm 100% correct in any or all of these suggestions. These are just what I think would help the game at this point in time.

  • Abelisk.4527Abelisk.4527 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A few hiccups I noticed.

    • Roll for Initiative is a 40 sec cd.

    • Illusionary Ambush doesn't even need Infinite Horizon for clones as the skill already gives them the cloak.

    Otherwise these are fair suggestions, but you missed out on Weaver and its evade uptime, or Revenant and its insane burst potential. Some of the proposed Mesmer changes are a bit meager but will do with a few changes.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Abelisk.4527 said:
    A few hiccups I noticed.

    • Roll for Initiative is a 40 sec cd.

    • Illusionary Ambush doesn't even need Infinite Horizon for clones as the skill already gives them the cloak.

    Otherwise these are fair suggestions, but you missed out on Weaver and its evade uptime, or Revenant and its insane burst potential. Some of the proposed Mesmer changes are a bit meager but will do with a few changes.

    Yeah I know the cooldown for Roll for Initiative was longer. I mainly linked it for comparison to show the cooldown difference between relatively similarly functioning skills.

    Good point on Illusionary Ambush. I'll fix that.

    Yeah I left out a few classes. While I might be able to play them fine, I don't think I know them well enough to suggest the correct buffs/nerfs (and since I barely play this game anymore, nor do I feel that they are worth spending the time learning to that degree) ^-^

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Infinite Horizon

    I did all this stuff back in april when Chrono mains were trying to deflect from Signet of the Ether and Chronophantasma being OP back in Apirl:

    The following have been tested with Berserker stats and under the assumption of three clones:

    On a power build you can expect Mirage Thrust to do about 2,000 damage on a critical strike. Clones will critically strike for abou 40 with Mirage Thrust. Not 4,000. Not 400. 40.

    That means the increase in Mirage Thrust's damage output with Infinite Horizon is 6%. Now you can't discount the daze on it since that's the point, but the thing is not only are the dazes overwriting each other, they all going to land at mostly the same time anyway and like I said that's not adding the dazed duration at 400% effectiveness.

    Split Surge will typically do about 4,000 damage on Berserker Stats. Clone Spatial surge ranged from 400-700. This means that with three clones Spatial Surge gets an extremely high balled damage increase of 52%. Leagues better than 6% but a far cry away from 400%.

    The next few skills are calculated using viper's gear with renegade ruins, three clones, Signet of Midnight and Signet of Domination as the bulk of their damage is condition based. I'm also using the axe trait to buff their damage to as obscene levels as I can for the sake of argument.

    Imaginary Axes has the physical component of it's attack, which on viper's gear ranges from 350-550 plus the additional 272 damage from the traited portion of the skill. Each axe from the ambush applies three stacks of torment, with a seventh stack from the trait. Torment applied will add up to 3,647 damage. Overall this skill does about 5,000 damage per ambush.

    Clones will typically do 40-60 physical damage, plus another 40-60 damage on the traited portion of the attack. However, each axe only does one stack of torment, one third of the player's ambush. Torment damage from the clone damage adds up to 1,309. High balling it, this means that a clone's ambush comes around to about 1489.

    This means that three clones will add up to 4,467 damage per ambush attack, or 89% increase in damage. This is definitely better, almost double damage on this one attack. But it's still no where near quadrupling the damage.

    Ether Barrage waaaay too random I refuse to actually test it fully because of it's extremely unpredictable nature of randomly applying either torment or confusion. The player will about 1,200 physical damage across 5 bolts clone damage does about 105 across all five hits. Condition duration on either condition applied is explicitly half the duration of the mesmer's. In a hypathetical world where scepter get's fixed to replace it's confusion with torment the ambush does about 2445 damage for the player. Clone damage will add up to 725 damage for the ambush, times three equals 2175. Total increase in damage from three clone ambush attacks adds up to 88%.

    The only outlier is the staff ambush, Chaos Vortex. And you know what? I have no problem if they halve the condition duration on that one, too. But event hen, that ambush is extremely easy to avoid just by strafing out of the way and doesn't lock onto players like most normal skills do.

    Edit: I have a knee jerk reaction to do jokey trash talky snark, and I feel like it wasn't warranted given your response below and deleted it. I apologize it was unnecessary. Either way, YOU made the thread about this and did not do the math. I did not make the thread about this AND did your math for you.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @mortrialus.3062

    Apologies if a term I used isn't 100% correct. I assume that most people will still understand my point.

    I added screenshots of the golems after using a single Ambush attack (with different weapons) to help provide visuals for people to reference.

    Anyone can clearly see how high the condi application is simply by using a single Ambush attack with 3 illusions and Infinite Horizon.

    But yes, picking out a single wrong term means that my entire thread is "embarassing." Thank you for pointing that out.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @mortrialus.3062

    Apologies if a term I used isn't 100% correct. I assume that most people will still understand my point.

    I added screenshots of the golems after using a single Ambush attack (with different weapons) to help provide visuals for people to reference.

    Anyone can clearly see how high the condi application is simply by using a single Ambush attack with 3 illusions and Infinite Horizon.

    But yes, picking out a single wrong term means that my entire thread is "embarassing." Thank you for pointing that out.

    Also Infinite Horizon is only a DPS boost as experienced players do not get confused by clones longer than fractions of a second anyway. It's impossible to make a trait where clones are even remotely confusing and the damage boost was always an intended part of it.

    I don't see too much of a point in complaining about clone condition application when they only classes that really struggles with getting condi bombed are necromancers, who are almost always partnered with support who fix that problem for them anyway, and Power Herald which is still a meta build despite a really unfavorable matchup against condi mirage. Literally every other build in the game can flip 4-7 conditions multiple times an encounter on top of bringing extremely threatening damage.

    Regarding Holo, I find their levels of sustain, healing, and condition conversion and cleanse to be far more problematic than their damage and you didn't touch on any of it. Holos should be a high risk / high reward explosively lethal but squishy damage carry. And right now they're not squishy in the slightest and their high level of defense on top of top tier damage is a huge part of why scrapper was pushed out of the meta. Why run a highly defensive build when you can right a highly defensive and high damage build?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @mortrialus.3062

    Apologies if a term I used isn't 100% correct. I assume that most people will still understand my point.

    I added screenshots of the golems after using a single Ambush attack (with different weapons) to help provide visuals for people to reference.

    Anyone can clearly see how high the condi application is simply by using a single Ambush attack with 3 illusions and Infinite Horizon.

    But yes, picking out a single wrong term means that my entire thread is "embarassing." Thank you for pointing that out.

    Also Infinite Horizon is only a DPS boost as experienced players do not get confused by clones longer than fractions of a second anyway. It's impossible to make a trait where clones are even remotely confusing and the damage boost was always an intended part of it.

    I don't see too much of a point in complaining about clone condition application when they only classes that really struggles with getting condi bombed are necromancers, who are almost always partnered with support who fix that problem for them anyway, and Power Herald which is still a meta build despite a really unfavorable matchup against condi mirage. Literally every other build in the game can flip 4-7 conditions multiple times an encounter on top of bringing extremely threatening damage.

    Regarding Holo, I find their levels of sustain, healing, and condition conversion and cleanse to be far more problematic than their damage and you didn't touch on any of it. Holos should be a high risk / high reward explosively lethal but squishy damage carry. And right now they're not squishy in the slightest and their high level of defense on top of top tier damage is a huge part of why scrapper was pushed out of the meta. Why run a highly defensive build when you can right a highly defensive and high damage build?

    IH is still a dps boost regardless of whether or not the person you're fighting is experienced or not.

    IH can be very confusing to experienced players if the Mesmer acts exactly like a clone. If there's no differences in the boon-bar, the Mesmer doesn't do anything out of the ordinary, and attacks and moves exactly like a clone, there's no way to tell which is which.

    As for Holo, I suggested to lower the 100% quickness uptime, decrease ranges and increase some cooldowns very slightly. For the most part, their damage per skill will remain the same. The frequency between attacks however, will be decreased.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @mortrialus.3062

    Apologies if a term I used isn't 100% correct. I assume that most people will still understand my point.

    I added screenshots of the golems after using a single Ambush attack (with different weapons) to help provide visuals for people to reference.

    Anyone can clearly see how high the condi application is simply by using a single Ambush attack with 3 illusions and Infinite Horizon.

    But yes, picking out a single wrong term means that my entire thread is "embarassing." Thank you for pointing that out.

    Also Infinite Horizon is only a DPS boost as experienced players do not get confused by clones longer than fractions of a second anyway. It's impossible to make a trait where clones are even remotely confusing and the damage boost was always an intended part of it.

    I don't see too much of a point in complaining about clone condition application when they only classes that really struggles with getting condi bombed are necromancers, who are almost always partnered with support who fix that problem for them anyway, and Power Herald which is still a meta build despite a really unfavorable matchup against condi mirage. Literally every other build in the game can flip 4-7 conditions multiple times an encounter on top of bringing extremely threatening damage.

    Regarding Holo, I find their levels of sustain, healing, and condition conversion and cleanse to be far more problematic than their damage and you didn't touch on any of it. Holos should be a high risk / high reward explosively lethal but squishy damage carry. And right now they're not squishy in the slightest and their high level of defense on top of top tier damage is a huge part of why scrapper was pushed out of the meta. Why run a highly defensive build when you can right a highly defensive and high damage build?

    IH is still a dps boost regardless of whether or not the person you're fighting is experienced or not.

    Which it is supposed to be but aside from the staff, it isn't no 400% damage increase.

    IH can be very confusing to experienced players if the Mesmer acts exactly like a clone. If there's no differences in the boon-bar, the Mesmer doesn't do anything out of the ordinary, and attacks and moves exactly like a clone, there's no way to tell which is which.

    Are you a chronomancer because I feel like I'm back in 2012 :smirk:

    As for Holo, I suggested to lower the 100% quickness uptime, decrease ranges and increase some cooldowns very slightly. For the most part, their damage per skill will remain the same. The frequency between attacks however, will be decreased.

    It's not the damage or frequency I care about, or rather that's what Holo's should be doing. My issue are their sustain. This was my previous diagnosis of my issues with Holo:

    I don't mind the damage and the CC. I feel like that's what Holosmiths SHOULD be doing in very high extremes. What really annoys me about Holos is their survivability and sustain. Elixer traitline provides tons of boons, automatic condition conversions and elixir S, almost permanent vigor, and they have healing whenever they gain a boon. Between Holo's Prismatic Converter, Heat Therapy, Thermal Release Valve, and Elixir's Transmute, Compounding Chemicals, and literally the best heal skill in the game with Heal Turret Holos have ridiculous sustain for a build that's supposed to be high risk high reward glass cannon. And they're running around with tons of boons with their extremely ridiculous levels of condition conversion. In addition with Holo's ridiculous levels of stability.

    They're so well equipped defensively and offensively they've completely muscled out Scrapper as an elite spec. Why run a highly defensive spec when you can run a high damage high defense spec?

    Also Leadership runes should be nerfed in PvP just in general. Like let's name all the classes that run it on a meta build or perfectly viable close to meta build: Soulbeast, Holosmith, Revenant, Dagger Spellbreaker, while Weaver isn't meta it's part of their best build as well. When over half the classes are running one rune, you know something funny is going on.

    I'd rather see the easy sustain in the elixir and holo trees nerfed and then loaded onto scrapper to give them more distinct rolls.

    Regarding thieves, I think Swindler's Equilibrium guaranteeing double steal, combined with Improvisation allowing steal skills to be used twice is too much synergy. In addition Improvisation shouldn't be recharging elite skills. Back to back Dagger Storms is an insane amount of evade frames to deal with and the randomness of which skills are recharged makes it either completely worthless or absolutely monstrous and we should be culling RNG like that out.. I think that synergy is a bit more of a problem than Death's Judgement and Flanking Strike. Silent Scope is nuts though and makes Deadeye a complete nightmare to fight.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Thief

    Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike

    • Problem: Both attacks are unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect from Larcenous Strike. This still encourages skilled gameplay. If an enemy uses a block or has Aegis, the thief can use Flanking Strike and wait for the block/boon to end before using Larcenous Strike. This change prevents this attack from being spammed repeatedly even when an enemy is using a defensive cooldown.

    Death’s Judgement

    • Problem: For a skill that hits incredibly hard, it should not be unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect.

    Silent Scope

    • Problem: This trait gives Deadeyes' extremely easy and frequent access to stealth with no way to stop them. Black Powder + Bound also has the same issue. They give thieves high access to uninterruptible stealth.
    • Solution: Add a 10 second internal cooldown and turn this skill into a buff on the thief’s bar when it’s active. This gives an indicator to the thief and the enemy player when it’s ready to be used.

    Dagger Storm

    • Problem: A 4.5 second evade shouldn’t count towards Capture-Point Contribution.
    • Solution: Prevent Capture-Point Contribution.

    Spamming Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike was always a death sentence for the Thief even before the DMG nerfs (if I remember correctly that was a whooping 20%), so I don't agree with this change much, however if its to have unblockable removed from LS then one of those skills, FS or LS needs its dmg increased. Say what you will but Thiefs dmg is borderline nothing compared to all other professions (I can dish out more dmg even with godd*mn Sage/Avatar Weaver than with Thief), and since we can safely assume Anet will never ever "de-powercreep" ALL of the professions, then its pretty unfair leaving S/x Thief completely behind.

    I agree with all the rest.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Should add something on the cleansing water+woven stride interaction with rune of evasion. Even though weaver is not meta right now, that is still a game breaking interaction that should not be overlooked.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    these are all right on except for the one wolf pack solution (stunbreak and stab). soulbeast absolutely does not need another stunbreak or stab.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    With the nerf I proposed to OWP (5 second duration, 40 second cooldown), a single cc would make this skill nearly useless. The stab + stunbreak is intended to allow the ranger and their allies to have a higher chance of actually utilizing the damage buff.

    Keep in mind, I also proposed a way to cut down on the boonshare on the meta build. This means that boonbeasts will have to trade between damage, sustain, and boonshare rather than having access to all 3 in the same build.

    the ranger should rely on dolyak stance and timing. what youre doing is a damage nerf but a huge survivability buff which is very counter productive. even with some boonshare nerfed this stab addition would pretty much make that nerf null and void.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    these are all right on except for the one wolf pack solution (stunbreak and stab). soulbeast absolutely does not need another stunbreak or stab.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    With the nerf I proposed to OWP (5 second duration, 40 second cooldown), a single cc would make this skill nearly useless. The stab + stunbreak is intended to allow the ranger and their allies to have a higher chance of actually utilizing the damage buff.

    Keep in mind, I also proposed a way to cut down on the boonshare on the meta build. This means that boonbeasts will have to trade between damage, sustain, and boonshare rather than having access to all 3 in the same build.

    the ranger should rely on dolyak stance and timing. what youre doing is a damage nerf but a huge survivability buff which is very counter productive. even with some boonshare nerfed this stab addition would pretty much make that nerf null and void.

    Can you explain this a little further please?

    From my perspective, adding a stunbreak and short duration, 2 stacks of stability to OWP just makes it a viable alternative to Strength of the Pack which gives 3 stacks of stability for 8 seconds (along with fury, might, and swiftness) on a 60 second cooldown when traited (13% uptime). 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds every 40 seconds on OWP is a 12.5% uptime. However, instead of a damage boost from might and fury, you gain extra damage while attacking.

    If rangers wanted higher boon and stab uptime, I believe that they would still choose SotP in this scenario.

    To me, my suggestion looks like a damage nerf, and compensates a little bit for the lost damage by adding in a way to land that damage reliably. Maybe reducing the base stab duration on OWP to 3 or 4 seconds would be better? Ideally, I prefer it when traits/utilities/skills are able to function independently from each other. Requiring Dolyak Stance to be used in conjunction with OWP because a 5 second damage buff is too weak on its own isn't a good idea in my opinion.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Can you explain this a little further please?

    From my perspective, adding a stunbreak and short duration, 2 stacks of stability to OWP just makes it a viable alternative to Strength of the Pack which gives 3 stacks of stability for 8 seconds (along with fury, might, and swiftness) on a 60 second cooldown when traited (13% uptime). 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds every 40 seconds on OWP is a 12.5% uptime. However, instead of a damage boost from might and fury, you gain extra damage while attacking.

    If rangers wanted higher boon and stab uptime, I believe that they would still choose SotP in this scenario.

    To me, my suggestion looks like a damage nerf, and compensates a little bit for the lost damage by adding in a way to land that damage reliably. Maybe reducing the base stab duration on OWP to 3 or 4 seconds would be better?

    im not sure how to explain further. I would rather OWP duration go up from 5 to 8sec instead of stab and stunbreak. SOTP is fine cuz it has a long cd and doesn't break stuns.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    For the most part, I think these are pretty decent suggestions, however, I don't really like the solution for moving Windborne Notes. Beastmastery already has 2 weapon traits, it does not need a third. It just doesn't really make sense design-wise, especially as a minor trait. Also, I am not a PvEr, but from what I understand, the trait is important for Druids and fits nicely in NM. Not really sure what a better solution would be. Plasma seems like a better candidate to me, but I generally dislike the skill and think it's unhealthy for the game. Removing it would only affect a very niche selection of core/Druid builds, and it could be replaced with something strong enough that doesn't have so much synergy with NM and SB.

    Also, I don't see this mentioned much, but I think Soften the Fall is way too strong for an adept trait. Lesser Muddy Terrain's immob should be reduced to 1 second and the duration of the slow/cripple should be halved. It is way too easy to set up burst with it for such little investment.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Can you explain this a little further please?

    From my perspective, adding a stunbreak and short duration, 2 stacks of stability to OWP just makes it a viable alternative to Strength of the Pack which gives 3 stacks of stability for 8 seconds (along with fury, might, and swiftness) on a 60 second cooldown when traited (13% uptime). 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds every 40 seconds on OWP is a 12.5% uptime. However, instead of a damage boost from might and fury, you gain extra damage while attacking.

    If rangers wanted higher boon and stab uptime, I believe that they would still choose SotP in this scenario.

    To me, my suggestion looks like a damage nerf, and compensates a little bit for the lost damage by adding in a way to land that damage reliably. Maybe reducing the base stab duration on OWP to 3 or 4 seconds would be better?

    im not sure how to explain further. I would rather OWP duration go up from 5 to 8sec instead of stab and stunbreak. SOTP is fine cuz it has a long cd and doesn't break stuns.

    I want to keep the duration of OWP short to prevent spamming and encourage using it intelligently. A longer duration means that the most effective way to use it would be to spam auto attacks for (in this case) 8 seconds.

    Personally, I think my suggestion finds a good balance between the two and makes it a viable elite skill to take (while not being over-or-under powered). However, if you think the combination of low-stack, short-duration stability + stun break is too strong, maybe removing the stunbreak so it only gives stability would be a better alternative.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    For the most part, I think these are pretty decent suggestions, however, I don't really like the solution for moving Windborne Notes. Beastmastery already has 2 weapon traits, it does not need a third. It just doesn't really make sense design-wise, especially as a minor trait. Also, I am not a PvEr, but from what I understand, the trait is important for Druids and fits nicely in NM. Not really sure what a better solution would be. Plasma seems like a better candidate to me, but I generally dislike the skill and think it's unhealthy for the game. Removing it would only affect a very niche selection of core/Druid builds, and it could be replaced with something strong enough that doesn't have so much synergy with NM and SB.

    Also, I don't see this mentioned much, but I think Soften the Fall is way too strong for an adept trait. Lesser Muddy Terrain's immob should be reduced to 1 second and the duration of the slow/cripple should be halved. It is way too easy to set up burst with it for such little investment.

    OOPS! Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to type "move Fortifying Bond" NOT "move Windborne Notes."

    Huge typo. I fixed it. ^-^

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    For the most part, I think these are pretty decent suggestions, however, I don't really like the solution for moving Windborne Notes. Beastmastery already has 2 weapon traits, it does not need a third. It just doesn't really make sense design-wise, especially as a minor trait. Also, I am not a PvEr, but from what I understand, the trait is important for Druids and fits nicely in NM. Not really sure what a better solution would be. Plasma seems like a better candidate to me, but I generally dislike the skill and think it's unhealthy for the game. Removing it would only affect a very niche selection of core/Druid builds, and it could be replaced with something strong enough that doesn't have so much synergy with NM and SB.

    Also, I don't see this mentioned much, but I think Soften the Fall is way too strong for an adept trait. Lesser Muddy Terrain's immob should be reduced to 1 second and the duration of the slow/cripple should be halved. It is way too easy to set up burst with it for such little investment.

    OOPS! Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to type, "move Fortifying Bond," NOT "Windborne Notes." Huge typo.

    I fixed it. ^-^

    This change would make Beastmastery, an already exceptional trait for Soulbeast, even more oppressive. If this got moved to Beastmastery, the traitline would need a significant nerf and NM would need a significant buff. Beastmastery does not need even more synergy with Soulbeast. Just my two cents though.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    For the most part, I think these are pretty decent suggestions, however, I don't really like the solution for moving Windborne Notes. Beastmastery already has 2 weapon traits, it does not need a third. It just doesn't really make sense design-wise, especially as a minor trait. Also, I am not a PvEr, but from what I understand, the trait is important for Druids and fits nicely in NM. Not really sure what a better solution would be. Plasma seems like a better candidate to me, but I generally dislike the skill and think it's unhealthy for the game. Removing it would only affect a very niche selection of core/Druid builds, and it could be replaced with something strong enough that doesn't have so much synergy with NM and SB.

    Also, I don't see this mentioned much, but I think Soften the Fall is way too strong for an adept trait. Lesser Muddy Terrain's immob should be reduced to 1 second and the duration of the slow/cripple should be halved. It is way too easy to set up burst with it for such little investment.

    OOPS! Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to type, "move Fortifying Bond," NOT "Windborne Notes." Huge typo.

    I fixed it. ^-^

    This change would make Beastmastery, an already exceptional trait for Soulbeast, even more oppressive. If this got moved to Beastmastery, the traitline would need a significant nerf and NM would need a significant buff. Beastmastery does not need even more synergy with Soulbeast. Just my two cents though.

    I've always believed that Fortifying Bond should've been baseline anyways. Without it, our pets are useless in larger fights because the lack of any protective boons means that they die nearly instantly in big team fights or large scale WvW.

    Not to mention the cooldown reduction for Pack Alpha should affect Beastmode skills.

    However, you are correct. This nerf I proposed to the current meta Boonbeast build WILL result in a buff to Beastmastery. Maybe removing Fortifying Bond altogether is a better alternative?

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    For the most part, I think these are pretty decent suggestions, however, I don't really like the solution for moving Windborne Notes. Beastmastery already has 2 weapon traits, it does not need a third. It just doesn't really make sense design-wise, especially as a minor trait. Also, I am not a PvEr, but from what I understand, the trait is important for Druids and fits nicely in NM. Not really sure what a better solution would be. Plasma seems like a better candidate to me, but I generally dislike the skill and think it's unhealthy for the game. Removing it would only affect a very niche selection of core/Druid builds, and it could be replaced with something strong enough that doesn't have so much synergy with NM and SB.

    Also, I don't see this mentioned much, but I think Soften the Fall is way too strong for an adept trait. Lesser Muddy Terrain's immob should be reduced to 1 second and the duration of the slow/cripple should be halved. It is way too easy to set up burst with it for such little investment.

    OOPS! Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to type, "move Fortifying Bond," NOT "Windborne Notes." Huge typo.

    I fixed it. ^-^

    This change would make Beastmastery, an already exceptional trait for Soulbeast, even more oppressive. If this got moved to Beastmastery, the traitline would need a significant nerf and NM would need a significant buff. Beastmastery does not need even more synergy with Soulbeast. Just my two cents though.

    I've always believed that Fortifying Bond should've been baseline anyways. Without it, our pets are useless in larger fights because the lack of any protective boons means that they die nearly instantly in big team fights or large scale WvW.

    Not to mention the cooldown reduction for Pack Alpha should affect Beastmode skills.

    However, you are correct. This nerf I proposed to the current meta Boonbeast build WILL result in a buff to Beastmastery. Maybe removing Fortifying Bond altogether is a better alternative?

    Perhaps if pets were able to handle bigger teamfights better it would be acceptable. It really is sad how quickly they melt. I don't really trait NM a lot so I'm not sure what would make up for its effectiveness. On a related note, it'd be nice if stances got automatically shared to the pet, regardless of range. I do really like your suggestion to LotP though. The trait seemed way too effective for oneself while quite underperforming for others (aside from the stab from Dolyak stance).

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    For the most part, I think these are pretty decent suggestions, however, I don't really like the solution for moving Windborne Notes. Beastmastery already has 2 weapon traits, it does not need a third. It just doesn't really make sense design-wise, especially as a minor trait. Also, I am not a PvEr, but from what I understand, the trait is important for Druids and fits nicely in NM. Not really sure what a better solution would be. Plasma seems like a better candidate to me, but I generally dislike the skill and think it's unhealthy for the game. Removing it would only affect a very niche selection of core/Druid builds, and it could be replaced with something strong enough that doesn't have so much synergy with NM and SB.

    Also, I don't see this mentioned much, but I think Soften the Fall is way too strong for an adept trait. Lesser Muddy Terrain's immob should be reduced to 1 second and the duration of the slow/cripple should be halved. It is way too easy to set up burst with it for such little investment.

    OOPS! Thank you for pointing that out. I meant to type, "move Fortifying Bond," NOT "Windborne Notes." Huge typo.

    I fixed it. ^-^

    This change would make Beastmastery, an already exceptional trait for Soulbeast, even more oppressive. If this got moved to Beastmastery, the traitline would need a significant nerf and NM would need a significant buff. Beastmastery does not need even more synergy with Soulbeast. Just my two cents though.

    I've always believed that Fortifying Bond should've been baseline anyways. Without it, our pets are useless in larger fights because the lack of any protective boons means that they die nearly instantly in big team fights or large scale WvW.

    Not to mention the cooldown reduction for Pack Alpha should affect Beastmode skills.

    However, you are correct. This nerf I proposed to the current meta Boonbeast build WILL result in a buff to Beastmastery. Maybe removing Fortifying Bond altogether is a better alternative?

    Perhaps if pets were able to handle bigger teamfights better it would be acceptable. It really is sad how quickly they melt. I don't really trait NM a lot so I'm not sure what would make up for its effectiveness. On a related note, it'd be nice if stances got automatically shared to the pet, regardless of range. I do really like your suggestion to LotP though. The trait seemed way too effective for oneself while quite underperforming for others (aside from the stab from Dolyak stance).

    Agreed.

    Thanks for the feedback as usual! If you have any other questions or concerns, feel free to ask. ^-^

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agreed. Tempest 'em all!
    On a serious note, i appreciate the thought on choice making and trade offs. Most meta specs have reached some kind of Jack of all trades, masters of all, while some just became self sustain bots by fatality.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    A good start. Not everything may be the best to do, but it at least starts the discussion on identifying what can be adjusted to rein in the enormous power creep.

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭

    so the ones using beast mastery already will receive double boons basically because of free fortifying bond?
    other than that it mainly looks like a mirage stomp, with half the skills your mentioned barely used or not even relevant

    won't happen anyway, too severe impact on pve which has highest priority

  • Jaka.3182Jaka.3182 Member ✭✭

    I would just like to point out these 5 meta pof2win sustain and insane number of getoutofthejail cards they have. I play mostly core ranger.
    1. Spellb. forget that they can 3 hit me down and half (not really half but feels like it) of those attacks are cc. But when I avoid all off that they simply run away. I dont know how, I play perma swiftness and have some quickness too and I cant catch them. Basically they can 3 - 4 hit me down and run away at any point they want.
    2. Soulb. Same thing. Insane surv., big dmg and if things go bad they simply 'fly' away and are faster from my quickness core ranger.
    3. Holo. Well enough said about this anomaly in this thread already. I do remember beating one good holo 3 times down to 5 - 10% and they just ran/invuln and healed up and eventually chain cc me when i was out of stunbreaks and killed me in 3 - 4 hits.
    4. de. Anet I just want some pvp pls. Because when i 'fight' this... its not really a fight. Every de has an ability to get away from fight at every point.
    5. Mirage is just a joke. If you some how get them to low vitality they simply port, stealth, blink whatever away.
    So Anet can you please nerf all these get away abilities cuz it doesnt feel like pvp anymore. Can i please kill something as core ranger too? I also play dh and i cant catch any of these if i get them to low morale. Or these pof2win anomalies will continue to have it all from dmg wise, cc, escape capabilities, heals etc?
    Also careful when nerfing core traits... obviously the problem is in pof specs so nerf pof specs... as common sense this sounds.. you never know with anet. Last thing we want is even bigger gap between pof and core/hot. Maybe only radiant hammer guard... no need for precision for them while they have 100% crit chance, 100% retaliation, power as if you have berserk amu and vitality as 2x mara amu all on expense on no need for precision stat. is a bit much. But thats just 1 core class that can fight meta pof trash so i d nerf this lastly.
    But honestly in next balance patch i expect buffs from anet...

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Can you explain this a little further please?

    From my perspective, adding a stunbreak and short duration, 2 stacks of stability to OWP just makes it a viable alternative to Strength of the Pack which gives 3 stacks of stability for 8 seconds (along with fury, might, and swiftness) on a 60 second cooldown when traited (13% uptime). 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds every 40 seconds on OWP is a 12.5% uptime. However, instead of a damage boost from might and fury, you gain extra damage while attacking.

    If rangers wanted higher boon and stab uptime, I believe that they would still choose SotP in this scenario.

    To me, my suggestion looks like a damage nerf, and compensates a little bit for the lost damage by adding in a way to land that damage reliably. Maybe reducing the base stab duration on OWP to 3 or 4 seconds would be better?

    im not sure how to explain further. I would rather OWP duration go up from 5 to 8sec instead of stab and stunbreak. SOTP is fine cuz it has a long cd and doesn't break stuns.

    I want to keep the duration of OWP short to prevent spamming and encourage using it intelligently. A longer duration means that the most effective way to use it would be to spam auto attacks for (in this case) 8 seconds.

    Personally, I think my suggestion finds a good balance between the two and makes it a viable elite skill to take (while not being over-or-under powered). However, if you think the combination of low-stack, short-duration stability + stun break is too strong, maybe removing the stunbreak so it only gives stability would be a better alternative.

    idk maybe. gg.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Thief

    Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike

    • Problem: Both attacks are unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect from Larcenous Strike. This still encourages skilled gameplay. If an enemy uses a block or has Aegis, the thief can use Flanking Strike and wait for the block/boon to end before using Larcenous Strike. This change prevents this attack from being spammed repeatedly even when an enemy is using a defensive cooldown.

    Death’s Judgement

    • Problem: For a skill that hits incredibly hard, it should not be unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect.

    Silent Scope

    • Problem: This trait gives Deadeyes' extremely easy and frequent access to stealth with no way to stop them. Black Powder + Bound also has the same issue. They give thieves high access to uninterruptible stealth.
    • Solution: Add a 10 second internal cooldown and turn this skill into a buff on the thief’s bar when it’s active. This gives an indicator to the thief and the enemy player when it’s ready to be used.

    Dagger Storm

    • Problem: A 4.5 second evade (9 seconds if recharged with Improvisation) shouldn’t count towards Capture-Point Contribution.
    • Solution: Prevent Capture-Point Contribution.

    Someone finally said the obvious thing. No two part skill should have both parts be unblockable. There is nothing more frustrating than fighting a sd thief when all they do is spam three but you feel like you need to dodge every attack because if you don't you will take absurd damage.

    ALSO the dagger storm is some ripe bull kitten

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jaka.3182

    I play multiple ranger builds on stream mon-thurs starting at 5pm est. One of those builds is core glass ranger.

    If you're interested in learning more about the class, feel free to ask as many questions as you want or stop by to check out the gameplay. ^-^

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Thief

    Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike

    • Problem: Both attacks are unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect from Larcenous Strike. This still encourages skilled gameplay. If an enemy uses a block or has Aegis, the thief can use Flanking Strike and wait for the block/boon to end before using Larcenous Strike. This change prevents this attack from being spammed repeatedly even when an enemy is using a defensive cooldown.

    Death’s Judgement

    • Problem: For a skill that hits incredibly hard, it should not be unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect.

    Silent Scope

    • Problem: This trait gives Deadeyes' extremely easy and frequent access to stealth with no way to stop them. Black Powder + Bound also has the same issue. They give thieves high access to uninterruptible stealth.
    • Solution: Add a 10 second internal cooldown and turn this skill into a buff on the thief’s bar when it’s active. This gives an indicator to the thief and the enemy player when it’s ready to be used.

    Dagger Storm

    • Problem: A 4.5 second evade (9 seconds if recharged with Improvisation) shouldn’t count towards Capture-Point Contribution.
    • Solution: Prevent Capture-Point Contribution.

    Someone finally said the obvious thing. No two part skill should have both parts be unblockable. There is nothing more frustrating than fighting a sd thief when all they do is spam three but you feel like you need to dodge every attack because if you don't you will take absurd damage.

    ALSO the dagger storm is some ripe bull kitten

    Hah, thanks. In my opinion, this has been an issue for a long time. Since a lot of a s/d thief's damage and utility comes from using Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike, I've never agreed with or understood why blocks are completely useless against them.

    Also, I edited that suggestion a bit. I realized that casting Larcenous Strike in the air enables the thief to recast the unblockable Flanking Strike. This ALSO nullifies the point of the block. So, I think it would be better to have Flanking Strike lose the unblockable instead. This way, if you have good timing and block the telegraphed initial hit, you should be rewarded, and if you don't, the thief will have access to an unblockable, boon-stripping, high-damage attack.

  • Jaka.3182Jaka.3182 Member ✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236
    Hi, thx for reply. I mostly play 2 core ranger builds, 1 is similar to yours apart from amu and the other is sicem with nat magic.
    As said I dont have problems when pof spec player stays - one of us dies - all good. Its when decides to run and I just cant keep up. Mirage blinks, ports, stealths whatever away. De stealths up. Soulb. is fatser. Spellb. also faster somehow even thou i have perma swiftness and some quickness. And holo have tons of invuln. and heals.
    So my problem is that all these meta specs simply run away if needed. So many games when mirage, sbs hold points and if needed they just run or kite. I think its one of major pof advantage over other non pof specs and should be nerfed. So many matches when all you do is run/kite after them... its not rly pvp. I also play some dh which is even slower.
    Maybe I should go with diviner's amu as you for longer quickness uptime...

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