List of Problem Traits/Skills + Possible Solutions (In-Depth) - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

List of Problem Traits/Skills + Possible Solutions (In-Depth)

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  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018

    Sorry for being so aggressive. Mirage does have some issues yes, but personally I think it's a larger systemic issue with the whole power damage/condition damage dichotomy and just powercreep in general. Confusion especially is difficult to balance because it's feast or famine. If it's not enough stacks it might as well be pointless but the point at which it's too powerful and becomes an execution tool and a pseudo cc that prevents skill use is easily reached. That's the problem with a 'punishment condition'. It's not easy to get to a middleground where it can't just be ignored and where it doesn't wipe out chunks of health because a player auto attacked. Basically I see Mirage as a symptom of a problem not necessarily a problem all it's own. The only two decent condition builds are because of their ridiculous condition output since cleanses have been powercreeped to death. For example, when was the last time burn guard was even remotely successful? If you want my honest opinion Mirage just needs less access to cover conditions. Maybe focus on Confusion or Torment as a theme not both.

    Dude nobody said Defender was fine, was it easy to escape? Sure, didn't mean it was okay. Very few people even said phantasm chrono was just fine. But 80% to all phantasms is overkill, if you can't see that you're blind. But no, you stand by your horrible ideas as if they're remotely considerable. You ignored the fact that chronophantasma was the problem trait and wanted to forge on ahead with a terrible idea. Plus a skill being fine based on the fact that it is avoidable or able to be mitgated isn't a bad justification. Especially in an action based game where not flailing like an idiot can avoid significant amounts of damage. If everyone was just able to hit each other with their skills 100% of the time almost every skill in the game would be overtuned.

    If you listen to one thing, listen to this. I am done wasting my time on you.

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    Wolf elite* doesnt need buffs or nerfs just as leader of the pack would result being in pure cancer in game with frequent use and instakills from entire teams . Perma moa stance for entire team ... another meme .
    With your changes soulbeast would be another mandatory class for any team comp for being good at 1x1's and insane teamfight boost and increase boonpooping on top of that. Consume plasma broken as it is , its just need straight removal from the game

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    Wow you sure like to shoot at sparrows with a cannon.

    Ranger changes - well maybe...
    1. Holosmith changes - some shaves are needed, but this is absolutely overkill.
    2. Mirage changes - on top of removing the cheese of dodgeing while stunned (without EM), you want to remove the condi specs ability to do condi damage.
    Warrior changes - meh... maybe?
    3. Thief changes - another nerf to S/D, seriously? The build is already unable to duel/contest/do even teamfights, but that's still not enough, lets take away some more damage from the decap-bot! And just for good measure, also smitersbooning rifle on DE.

    1. You should aim for balance, not nuking metabuilds into oblivion. Just for example, Revenant and reaper have absurd power burst&pressure. If the six classes you mentioned are toned down even half as much as you mentioned, these two cant stay untouched either, unless you want a meta where these two reign supreme.

      1. You do well with identifying whats too strong at the moment, but your suggested solutions are to hiroshima the nagasaki out of everything thats slightly overperforming.
    1. Holos have permanent quickness, 5/7 uptime on super speed, permanent stability, and roughly 50%+ cooldown reduction on their elite skills. My suggestion was to tone quickness and super speed uptime down to 25% (making Kinetic Battery essentially the same as Zephyr's Speed, reduce stability uptime to 5/8, and reduce the elite CDR from Power Wrench down to 20%.

    2. My changes to Mesmer's bleeding-related traits make them function exactly the same as EVERY other bleed-on-attack trait in the game. No other class has access to a trait with 100% chance to bleed on hit/crit. My changes to confusion and torment will result in bursts of around 10 stacks of conditions instead of 18+ stacks.

    3. It's silly that an s/d thief's main damage skills are completely unblockable. I explained why in my OP. I also explained why Death's Judgement shouldn't be unblockable.

    4. How exactly are these changes "nuking" the meta builds? Also, I stated that I was only making suggestions for the classes I am most familiar with.

    5. Thanks, but I disagree. The changes I suggested are very reasonable in my opinion. If you want to explain why you think otherwise, I'm open to a discussion. However, don't just say I'm "nuking" things without providing any justification to back up your claims.

    I explained how it's nuking. Cutting holosmiths damage in half, removing the cheese from mirage AND nerfing their condi application by nearly cutting it in half aswell, nerfing the already too weak S/D thief build which is in dire need of buffs, and deleting rifle DE with utter brutality... if you cannot see how strong your proposed nerfs really are, I can try to demonstrate with 2 simpler examples(however these are pretty evident so I don't know what explaining them would do):

    Removing nearly permanent quickness from a power build roughly cuts it's pressure in half. Thats just math: go attack an indestructible golem in the pvp lobby for a minute and compare numbers.

    About the DE changes, my "refutation" is more about mechanics and history: Silent Scope went through a few iterations when the rework hit. I was 20th on the european leaderboard at the time, and I was memeing deadeye(full on tryharding with a trollbuild) so I had the pleasure of testingt out every iteration of it. Right after the rework an ICD was in place, and they gradually adjusted the trait to be what it is today. If you nerf Silent Scope even a tiniest bit it becomes a useless trait, and rifle goes away with it. The design of stealth on dodge is dumb, but the entire DE specialisation needs to be reworked again if you want to change that.
    Stealth is both offense and defense for DE. Taking it away makes the spec useless: it can't spend malice, which makes it a 2 traitline thief. Also DJ has to be unblockable in order to force out dodges/defensive cooldowns. That's what it is used for in high end PvP... anyone getting hit by a full range DJ has serious l2p issues.

    I hope you can see why I'm disagreeing with some of your suggestions now. If not... well I'm sorry.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    1. Sorry for being so aggressive. Mirage does have some issues yes, but personally I think it's a larger systemic issue with the whole power damage/condition damage dichotomy and just powercreep in general. Confusion especially is difficult to balance because it's feast or famine. If it's not enough stacks it might as well be pointless but the point at which it's too powerful and becomes an execution tool and a pseudo cc that prevents skill use is easily reached. That's the problem with a 'punishment condition'. It's not easy to get to a middleground where it can't just be ignored and where it doesn't wipe out chunks of health because a player auto attacked. Basically I see Mirage as a symptom of a problem not necessarily a problem all it's own. The only two decent condition builds are because of their ridiculous condition output since cleanses have been powercreeped to death. For example, when was the last time burn guard was even remotely successful? If you want my honest opinion Mirage just needs less access to cover conditions. Maybe focus on Confusion or Torment as a theme not both.
    2. Dude nobody said Defender was fine, was it easy to escape? Sure, didn't mean it was okay. Very few people even said phantasm chrono was just fine. But 80% to all phantasms is overkill, if you can't see that you're blind. But no, you stand by your horrible ideas as if they're remotely considerable. You ignored the fact that chronophantasma was the problem trait and wanted to forge on ahead with a terrible idea.
    3. Plus a skill being fine based on the fact that it is avoidable or able to be mitgated isn't a bad justification. Especially in an action based game where not flailing like an idiot can avoid significant amounts of damage. If everyone was just able to hit each other with their skills 100% of the time almost every skill in the game would be overtuned.
    4. If you listen to one thing, listen to this. I am done wasting my time on you.

    1. I accept your apology. Conditions were recently reworked to be more "damage over time" as opposed to burst damage. This means that condition durations on classes such as Mirage were INCREASED. However, since Mirages can still burst anywhere from 10-30 stacks of conditions, this means they also last incredibly long as well. Reducing the stacks of conditions while keeping the durations as they are now would fit more in line with Anet's plan.

    2. That's not true. There were a TON of people trying to prevent Defender from getting nerfed, saying things like, "They don't actually hit for 18k" or "They are easy to dodge." Meanwhile, the build was completely dominating the meta and teams were running anywhere from 2-5 chronos in tournaments simply because of how broken they were.

      • Then, Anet nerfed the damage on Phantasmal Defender by 50% and increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 50 seconds.
      • If you do the math on the dps loss from 14,000 every 20 seconds to 7,000 every 50 seconds, it is exactly 80%. And, the build was much more balanced afterwards. So, clearly, it was a good idea. ^-^
    3. Telegraphed skills are fine, but ALL 10 of a Mirage's weapon skills are loaded with conditions. Not evading a single one of them means you're getting hit with anywhere from 5-18 conditions that make it harder to move/use skills while also blinding you and making it harder to counterpressure. Of course, then you also have to worry about shatters, jaunts, phantasms, and spammable ambush skills that hit you for 10-30 stacks of conditions when traited with IH. This is NOT balanced, nor are these attacks easy to avoid when you have multiple, fast-animation attacks coming at you from several directions, from several sources.

    4. You still haven't backed up any of your points with math, examples, quotes, etc. etc. If you're going to have a discussion, at least have some type of proof for your arguments next time.

    Oh, and here's the 1v2 I won on condi Mirage today.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    SotP doesnt need buffs or nerfs just as leader of the pack would result being in pure cancer in game with frequent use and instakills from entire teams . Perma moa stance for entire team ... another meme .
    With your changes soulbeast would be another mandatory class for any team comp for being good at 1x1's and insane teamfight boost and increase boonpooping on top of that. Consume plasma broken as it is , its just need straight removal from the game

    I never mentioned anything about SotP.

    Nerfed stances (a personal survivability nerf) and group utility buff on LotP wouldn't be "pure cancer." Currently, Soulbeast is too strong in 1v1s. Reducing our 1v1 potential and increasing our group support slightly would be good for the game.

    And, as I stated several times previously, I am open to suggestions and have said that removing Fortifying Bond altogether and the stunbreak/stab from OWP might be better. So, if you bring up this point again, I will no longer repeat myself a third time and instead quote one of my other responses regarding this issue.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    Wow you sure like to shoot at sparrows with a cannon.

    Ranger changes - well maybe...
    1. Holosmith changes - some shaves are needed, but this is absolutely overkill.
    2. Mirage changes - on top of removing the cheese of dodgeing while stunned (without EM), you want to remove the condi specs ability to do condi damage.
    Warrior changes - meh... maybe?
    3. Thief changes - another nerf to S/D, seriously? The build is already unable to duel/contest/do even teamfights, but that's still not enough, lets take away some more damage from the decap-bot! And just for good measure, also smitersbooning rifle on DE.

    1. You should aim for balance, not nuking metabuilds into oblivion. Just for example, Revenant and reaper have absurd power burst&pressure. If the six classes you mentioned are toned down even half as much as you mentioned, these two cant stay untouched either, unless you want a meta where these two reign supreme.

      1. You do well with identifying whats too strong at the moment, but your suggested solutions are to hiroshima the nagasaki out of everything thats slightly overperforming.
    1. Holos have permanent quickness, 5/7 uptime on super speed, permanent stability, and roughly 50%+ cooldown reduction on their elite skills. My suggestion was to tone quickness and super speed uptime down to 25% (making Kinetic Battery essentially the same as Zephyr's Speed, reduce stability uptime to 5/8, and reduce the elite CDR from Power Wrench down to 20%.

    2. My changes to Mesmer's bleeding-related traits make them function exactly the same as EVERY other bleed-on-attack trait in the game. No other class has access to a trait with 100% chance to bleed on hit/crit. My changes to confusion and torment will result in bursts of around 10 stacks of conditions instead of 18+ stacks.

    3. It's silly that an s/d thief's main damage skills are completely unblockable. I explained why in my OP. I also explained why Death's Judgement shouldn't be unblockable.

    4. How exactly are these changes "nuking" the meta builds? Also, I stated that I was only making suggestions for the classes I am most familiar with.

    5. Thanks, but I disagree. The changes I suggested are very reasonable in my opinion. If you want to explain why you think otherwise, I'm open to a discussion. However, don't just say I'm "nuking" things without providing any justification to back up your claims.

    1. I explained how it's nuking. Cutting holosmiths damage in half, removing the cheese from mirage AND nerfing their condi application by nearly cutting it in half aswell, nerfing the already too weak S/D thief build which is in dire need of buffs, and deleting rifle DE with utter brutality... if you cannot see how strong your proposed nerfs really are, I can try to demonstrate with 2 simpler examples(however these are pretty evident so I don't know what explaining them would do):

    2. Removing nearly permanent quickness from a power build roughly cuts it's pressure in half. Thats just math: go attack an indestructible golem in the pvp lobby for a minute and compare numbers.

    3. About the DE changes, my "refutation" is more about mechanics and history: Silent Scope went through a few iterations when the rework hit. I was 20th on the european leaderboard at the time, and I was memeing deadeye(full on tryharding with a trollbuild) so I had the pleasure of testingt out every iteration of it. Right after the rework an ICD was in place, and they gradually adjusted the trait to be what it is today. If you nerf Silent Scope even a tiniest bit it becomes a useless trait, and rifle goes away with it. The design of stealth on dodge is dumb, but the entire DE specialisation needs to be reworked again if you want to change that.
      Stealth is both offense and defense for DE. Taking it away makes the spec useless: it can't spend malice, which makes it a 2 traitline thief. Also DJ has to be unblockable in order to force out dodges/defensive cooldowns. That's what it is used for in high end PvP... anyone getting hit by a full range DJ has serious l2p issues.

    4. I hope you can see why I'm disagreeing with some of your suggestions now. If not... well I'm sorry.

    1. When builds are severely overperforming, they need nerfs to bring them back in line with other builds.
      • With quickness, Holosmiths can do 7000 damage per second with autoattacks alone. In other words, they can kill someone with 20,000 health in 2.8 seconds with JUST autoattacks. Of course, this doesn't even take might stacks into account. Does this sound balanced to you?
      • Conditions were recently reworked to have a heavier emphasis on the "damage over time" aspect. This means condition stacks were decreased and durations were decreased. However, since Mirage can still burst up to 30 stacks of several conditions at a time (while maintaining 10-15 stacks indefinitely), they are not only STILL able to burst, but their conditions also last incredibly long.
      • S/D thief is not too weak. It is a meta build for a reason.
      • DE is still busted and if you think Silent Scope is fine in it's current state and shouldn't be nerfed, that's also very silly of you.
    2. I don't think you understand how quickness works. The damage numbers with and without quickness would be exactly the same. The only difference is the speed at which the numbers increase. And, quickness is only a 50% increase in cast time speed (rather than 100% increase). If it was 100%, not having it would result in a 50% dps nerf. However, at 50%, not having it results in a 25% dps nerf, not half.
    3. I also play DE in plat 3 and can maintain my rating with it. I know how the build works and I know how it's been changed over time. The simple fact is, permanent stealth should not exist, nor should stealth on dodge exist without an ICD. The current iteration has an incredibly strong effect, arguably stronger than Elusive Mind at release.
      • If 2 Deadeyes come across each other in WvW, they will both permanently stealth. After 10 minutes, neither one knows if the other is still there and they both walk away. This is NOT engaging gameplay, nor is it fun for any party involved.
    4. I can see why you're disagreeing with my suggestions, but I don't think your reasons make very much sense. In this post, I explained why.
  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    1. Sorry for being so aggressive. Mirage does have some issues yes, but personally I think it's a larger systemic issue with the whole power damage/condition damage dichotomy and just powercreep in general. Confusion especially is difficult to balance because it's feast or famine. If it's not enough stacks it might as well be pointless but the point at which it's too powerful and becomes an execution tool and a pseudo cc that prevents skill use is easily reached. That's the problem with a 'punishment condition'. It's not easy to get to a middleground where it can't just be ignored and where it doesn't wipe out chunks of health because a player auto attacked. Basically I see Mirage as a symptom of a problem not necessarily a problem all it's own. The only two decent condition builds are because of their ridiculous condition output since cleanses have been powercreeped to death. For example, when was the last time burn guard was even remotely successful? If you want my honest opinion Mirage just needs less access to cover conditions. Maybe focus on Confusion or Torment as a theme not both.
    2. Dude nobody said Defender was fine, was it easy to escape? Sure, didn't mean it was okay. Very few people even said phantasm chrono was just fine. But 80% to all phantasms is overkill, if you can't see that you're blind. But no, you stand by your horrible ideas as if they're remotely considerable. You ignored the fact that chronophantasma was the problem trait and wanted to forge on ahead with a terrible idea.
    3. Plus a skill being fine based on the fact that it is avoidable or able to be mitgated isn't a bad justification. Especially in an action based game where not flailing like an idiot can avoid significant amounts of damage. If everyone was just able to hit each other with their skills 100% of the time almost every skill in the game would be overtuned.

    1. If you listen to one thing, listen to this. I am done wasting my time on you.
    1. I accept your apology. Conditions were recently reworked to be more "damage over time" as opposed to burst damage. This means that condition durations on classes such as Mirage were INCREASED. However, since Mirages can still burst anywhere from 10-30 stacks of conditions, this means they also last incredibly long as well. Reducing the stacks of conditions while keeping the durations as they are now would fit more in line with Anet's plan.

    2. That's not true. There were a TON of people trying to prevent Defender from getting nerfed, saying things like, "They don't actually hit for 18k" or "They are easy to dodge." Meanwhile, the build was completely dominating the meta and teams were running anywhere from 2-5 chronos in tournaments simply because of how broken they were.

      • Then, Anet nerfed the damage on Phantasmal Defender by 50% and increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 50 seconds.
      • If you do the math on the dps loss from 14,000 every 20 seconds to 7,000 every 50 seconds, it is exactly 80%. And, the build was much more balanced afterwards. So, clearly, it was a good idea. ^-^
    3. Telegraphed skills are fine, but ALL 10 of a Mirage's weapon skills are loaded with conditions. Not evading a single one of them means you're getting hit with anywhere from 5-18 conditions that make it harder to move/use skills while also blinding you and making it harder to counterpressure. Of course, then you also have to worry about shatters, jaunts, phantasms, and spammable ambush skills that hit you for 10-30 stacks of conditions when traited with IH. This is NOT balanced, nor are these attacks easy to avoid when you have multiple, fast-animation attacks coming at you from several directions, from several sources.

    4. You still haven't backed up any of your points with math, examples, quotes, etc. etc. If you're going to have a discussion, at least have some type of proof for your arguments next time.

    1) Defender only did that much damage if you attacked it 10 times during it's block phase, it rarely did that much damage even with full duration taunt in a 1v1 because most people don't auto fast enough.
    2) They didn't just nerf defender though did they? They nerfed staff phantasm to the point where you know you're fighting a pleb if they dodge them. They Nerfed the disenchanter damage by 50% and slapped on a higher CD for good measure. Shield phantasm likewise was nerfed by 50% just to make sure.
    3) They didn't just nerf the offence! They nerfed illusionary defence and stab on bountiful disillusionment at the same time where BD is a joke at 1s stab.
    4) It's not a balanced build in this meta, not even close, it's hilariously weak. They didn't just balance it, they SBooned the build. I didn't play it and I wanted to see the build go away but a lot of mesmer builds were affected for the worse because of the heavy handed nerfs. Staff has no pressure or damage in power builds, shield is arguably weaker than torch or sword in almost all builds. Phantasms as utility skills are dead now.

    Seriously go run the build, you will die to war, holo, soulbeast, rev and thief or lose the cap. You have no place in a team fight because of cleave and you'll die to FB+Scourge so what's left? Fighting weaver? I'd like to say beating or stalling mirage but we all know that's not happening.

    @Bazsi.2734 You might want to brush up on your ranger knowledge/builds. His suggestions for ranger was nothing but buffing, moving fortifying bond to beast mastery allows for high boon duration while having more damage. You would switch nature magic to beast mastery and lose almost nothing but gain the ability to trait we heal as one to 16s CD, so you get ecto, cast we heal as one and then go soulbeast for 3 times the boons from ecto. Did I mention it reduces the CD on forage for ecto?

    Anyone giving his ranger changes a thumbs up is either a ranger main wanting to faceroll more or should stop and start taking a real look at things.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    And, as I stated several times previously, I am open to suggestions and have said that removing Fortifying Bond altogether and the stunbreak/stab from OWP might be better. So, if you bring up this point again, I will no longer repeat myself a third time and instead quote one of my other responses regarding this issue.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @shadowpass.4236 feelings mutual page 2 btw.

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Ranger

    Winter’s Bite

    • Problem: 10 second duration weakness on a 10 second cooldown, Enfeebling Strike doesn't get removed if the attack misses.
    • Solution: Reduce weakness duration to 4 seconds, remove the Enfeebling Strike if the attack misses.

    Fortifying Bond

    • Problem: It’s in the same trait line as Windborne Notes. This causes too much synergy between boonshare, warhorn, and One Wolf Pack.
    • Solution: Merge Loud Whistle and Pet’s Prowess in Beastmastery and move Fortifying Bond from Nature Magic to Beastmastery into the now-empty minor trait slot. Make a new minor trait for the empty slot in Nature Magic. Since there is massive synergy between Hunter's Call, One Wolf Pack, Plasma, and Fortifying Bond , this change will cause Warhorn + OWP rangers to lose access to boonshare between them and their pet. This results in significantly shorter boon uptimes and less damage as now, rangers will be forced to choose between boonshare (no longer in Nature Magic) or high damage (CotW + OWP) rather than having both.

    One Wolf Pack

    • Problem: Lasts 12 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (20% uptime). This encourages spamming auto attacks/quick hitting attacks for the entire duration (in other words, mashing your 1 key for 12 seconds).
    • Solution: Reduce the duration to 5 seconds and the cooldown to 40 seconds (12% uptime). Give it a stunbreak + 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds on use.

    Moa Stance

    • Problem: Lasts 15 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (60% uptime).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds (33% uptime).

    Leader of the Pack

    • Problem: For a support trait, it actually benefits the user a lot more than it benefits allies.
    • Solution: Reduce Personal Duration to 100%, increase Allied Duration to 100%, add 20% cooldown reduction to Stances.

    So....I don't think you understand that ranger isn't just really strong because of consume plasma, it has insane trait synergy in each of soulbeast, nature magic, beastmastery and wilderness survival and then some really strong ones with each other.

    Also you're fooling no-one, you're buffing one wolf pack at the same time as nerfing it, you know how many stunbreaks it would give the already evade spamming, hard to lock down soulbeast? 4 or more and plenty of stab to boot because they would go beast mastery and wilderness survival because you just made beast mastery unquestionably the best choice when it was already a good variation.

    What this doesn't solve is the incredible boon uptime with consume plasma, fortifying bond and Fresh Reinforcement, which is one of the biggest offenders. Nerfing consume plasma to 5-6 boons is what is needed at the very least. Ranger needs some cool down increases to split blade and winters bite alongwith the reduction to weakness, lesser muddy terrain to be half duration and has a 2s interval, companions defence having an ICD of 10s (because with natural vigor you get a dodge every 7s) with a duration increase to 3s.

    These changes suggested by you only shift the problem onto a new build, they're deliberately not addressing the issue. Whatever you do with fortifying bond you will choose that line, it's best kept in nature magic than in beast mastery which would give 25 might, extra quickness, +150 stats, damage and movement speed buffs and extra weakness.

    Edit: I would start with this, see how it does then start the hacking again but then if we're going by the way devs sorted mesmer out that you justify we should probably increase all survival skill cool downs by 10-20s. Reduce all boon duration from fresh reinforcement and consume plasma to 3s max. Halve the damage of one wolf pack and whirling defence as well as winters bite and lets slap hunters call with a 50% DR too right?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:
    @shadowpass.4236 feelings mutual page 2 btw.

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Ranger

    Winter’s Bite

    • Problem: 10 second duration weakness on a 10 second cooldown, Enfeebling Strike doesn't get removed if the attack misses.
    • Solution: Reduce weakness duration to 4 seconds, remove the Enfeebling Strike if the attack misses.

    Fortifying Bond

    • Problem: It’s in the same trait line as Windborne Notes. This causes too much synergy between boonshare, warhorn, and One Wolf Pack.
    • Solution: Merge Loud Whistle and Pet’s Prowess in Beastmastery and move Fortifying Bond from Nature Magic to Beastmastery into the now-empty minor trait slot. Make a new minor trait for the empty slot in Nature Magic. Since there is massive synergy between Hunter's Call, One Wolf Pack, Plasma, and Fortifying Bond , this change will cause Warhorn + OWP rangers to lose access to boonshare between them and their pet. This results in significantly shorter boon uptimes and less damage as now, rangers will be forced to choose between boonshare (no longer in Nature Magic) or high damage (CotW + OWP) rather than having both.

    One Wolf Pack

    • Problem: Lasts 12 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (20% uptime). This encourages spamming auto attacks/quick hitting attacks for the entire duration (in other words, mashing your 1 key for 12 seconds).
    • Solution: Reduce the duration to 5 seconds and the cooldown to 40 seconds (12% uptime). Give it a stunbreak + 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds on use.

    Moa Stance

    • Problem: Lasts 15 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (60% uptime).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds (33% uptime).

    Leader of the Pack

    • Problem: For a support trait, it actually benefits the user a lot more than it benefits allies.
    • Solution: Reduce Personal Duration to 100%, increase Allied Duration to 100%, add 20% cooldown reduction to Stances.

    What this doesn't solve is the incredible boon uptime with consume plasma, fortifying bond and Fresh Reinforcement, which is one of the biggest offenders. Nerfing consume plasma to 5-6 boons is what is needed at the very least. Ranger needs some cool down increases to split blade and winters bite alongwith the reduction to weakness, lesser muddy terrain to be half duration and has a 2s interval, companions defence having an ICD of 10s (because with natural vigor you get a dodge every 7s) with a duration increase to 3s.

    I said I was open to suggestions, not that I was going to agree with every one.

    1. Companion's Defense is used in nearly every ranger build. Putting a 10 second internal cooldown on 2 seconds of protection every dodge would hurt Core Ranger and Druid very badly. Not to mention the protection applies at the start of the dodge unlike a Mirage's Mirage Mantle. And, since dodges only last .75 seconds, we only make use of the protection for 1.25 seconds afterwards. So, no, I think this is an extremely poorly thought out suggestion. Increasing the protection duration to 3 seconds would make the issue worse. Getting 5-6 seconds of protection on dodge is arguably stronger than the current iteration of 3 seconds per dodge.
      • If you put an internal cooldown of 10 seconds on this trait, move the protection to the end of the dodge frame and put a 10 second ICD on Mirage Mantle as well. But again, I think this is a very bad idea.
    2. Plasma is also available to Thieves when stealing onto a Mesmer. Also, this skill is one of the most important and impactful stolen items to receive as it is the ONLY way a thief can fight a Mirage without getting completely destroyed. If you nerf Plasma, it will be a huge buff to Mirages as they will now no longer have to worry about a thief +1. So, in my opinion, this is also a terrible suggestion.
      • As for the boon uptime with Fortifying Bond, see this post.
    3. For Splitblade, this skill does 700 damage every 6 seconds (compared to Maul which has 700 damage every 4 seconds). For Winter's Bite, this skill does 500 damage every 10 seconds. If the weakness duration is nerfed, the cooldown should be left alone. So, I disagree with these suggestions as well.
    4. For Soften the Fall, sure. Halving the duration to 5 seconds is fine. However, increasing the interval between each pulse wouldn't make sense. If it only lasts 5 seconds, and it pulses every 2, where does the last pulse go? xD
    5. For Natural Vigor, you're wrong about it's functionality. When Vigor granted 100% endurance regen, you could dodge every 5 seconds. Vigor got nerfed to 50% endurance regen, which means you can dodge every 7.5 seconds. On the other hand, Natural Vigor only gives 25% endurance regen. This means that we can dodge every 9 seconds, not 7.
  • This reads like fixes that will make Spellbreaker dominant.

  • As a low plat soulbeast main, I like OWP the way it is (no surprise there, right?). The primary reason for this is because I run a glass variant of the boonbeast build; the traits are nearly identical, the utilities are truly identical, but I use zerker amulet instead of paladin and run smokescale/jacaranda instead of siamoth/owl. For weapons, I run sw/wh + LB. This is not the sic' em build, which I never liked.

    The only unblockable buff that I get is from Call of the Wild, so in order to land my burst on harder targets I have to be pretty strategic about setting it up. Usually I have to do Moa Stance > Dolyak Stance > Call of the Wild > swap to LB > OWP > Point Blank Shot > Rapid Fire. I haven't done rigorous testing on it yet, but I find that if I just pop OWP whenever it's up and just try to get by with autoattacks and a little bit of quickness, OWP is significantly less effective. Even with my full combo, I'm only putting down soft targets that aren't getting bodyblocked, and I'm standing off point and not helping with the cap. Outside of that full setup, I find that the burst from OWP is low enough that it doesn't really scare tougher targets or force errors. Compared to the setup I have to endure now, I think having stab rolled into OWP, even with a shorter duration, would basically turn it into something worth using mindlessly off cooldown. I wouldn't consider that a balance improvement at all.

    Having played meta boonbeast here and there this season, I do understand that a huge part of OWP's utility comes from being able to push the buff out to teammates on point, helping melt focused targets. To that end, I really thing extending the allied OWP duration could become overkill. Having it run long for the ranger who casts it has a natural limit (after the ranger expends the few rapid-hit abilities it has, autos feel quite unable to make full use of OWP). In contrast, I believe having it run longer for the entire team on point could basically turn OWP into a guaranteed kill button on even the tougher specs trying to gain a foothold at that initial mid fight.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    It's funny that you stated you're only making changes for classes you're most familiar with yet you either don't understand or grossly misrepresent the actual function, practicality, or effect of most of the Mesmer abilities you mentioned.

    Here were my 3 typos:

    1. Blinding Dissipation only triggers around the player, not each clone. The change I suggested was to make it function exactly how it does now, so nothing would have been affected.
    2. Illusionary Ambush can be used while CC'd but it is NOT a stunbreak.
    3. The interval for the cooldown reduction on Duelist's Discipline ONLY applied to enemies with Defiance bars in PvE.

    So, wouldn't call that, "grossly misrepresenting" most of the mesmer abilities.

    However, I find it funny that MESMER mains are the only ones in every balance thread that vehemently defend every aspect of their busted class. Meanwhile, they think core guardians and holosmiths are the most broken builds in the game and deserve to be butchered. (Builds with enough AoE to kill clones AND an insane amount of condi clear, omegaLUL). Newflash! If these builds are nerfed like you guys want, you'll be even more OP and easy to play than you are currently.

    easy to play

    Ranger main

    Passive automatic pet knock down. Wow, much skill.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    @shadowpass.4236 feelings mutual page 2 btw.

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Ranger

    Winter’s Bite

    • Problem: 10 second duration weakness on a 10 second cooldown, Enfeebling Strike doesn't get removed if the attack misses.
    • Solution: Reduce weakness duration to 4 seconds, remove the Enfeebling Strike if the attack misses.

    Fortifying Bond

    • Problem: It’s in the same trait line as Windborne Notes. This causes too much synergy between boonshare, warhorn, and One Wolf Pack.
    • Solution: Merge Loud Whistle and Pet’s Prowess in Beastmastery and move Fortifying Bond from Nature Magic to Beastmastery into the now-empty minor trait slot. Make a new minor trait for the empty slot in Nature Magic. Since there is massive synergy between Hunter's Call, One Wolf Pack, Plasma, and Fortifying Bond , this change will cause Warhorn + OWP rangers to lose access to boonshare between them and their pet. This results in significantly shorter boon uptimes and less damage as now, rangers will be forced to choose between boonshare (no longer in Nature Magic) or high damage (CotW + OWP) rather than having both.

    One Wolf Pack

    • Problem: Lasts 12 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (20% uptime). This encourages spamming auto attacks/quick hitting attacks for the entire duration (in other words, mashing your 1 key for 12 seconds).
    • Solution: Reduce the duration to 5 seconds and the cooldown to 40 seconds (12% uptime). Give it a stunbreak + 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds on use.

    Moa Stance

    • Problem: Lasts 15 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (60% uptime).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds (33% uptime).

    Leader of the Pack

    • Problem: For a support trait, it actually benefits the user a lot more than it benefits allies.
    • Solution: Reduce Personal Duration to 100%, increase Allied Duration to 100%, add 20% cooldown reduction to Stances.

    What this doesn't solve is the incredible boon uptime with consume plasma, fortifying bond and Fresh Reinforcement, which is one of the biggest offenders. Nerfing consume plasma to 5-6 boons is what is needed at the very least. Ranger needs some cool down increases to split blade and winters bite alongwith the reduction to weakness, lesser muddy terrain to be half duration and has a 2s interval, companions defence having an ICD of 10s (because with natural vigor you get a dodge every 7s) with a duration increase to 3s.

    I said I was open to suggestions, not that I was going to agree with every one.

    1. Companion's Defence is used in nearly every ranger build. Putting a 10 second internal cooldown on 2 seconds of protection every dodge would hurt Core Ranger and Druid very badly. Not to mention the protection applies at the start of the dodge unlike a Mirage's Mirage Mantle. And, since dodges only last .75 seconds, we only make use of the protection for 1.25 seconds afterwards. So, no, I think this is an extremely poorly thought out suggestion. Increasing the protection duration to 3 seconds would make the issue worse. Getting 5-6 seconds of protection on dodge is arguably stronger than the current iteration of 3 seconds per dodge.
      • If you put an internal cooldown of 10 seconds on this trait, move the protection to the end of the dodge frame and put a 10 second ICD on Mirage Mantle as well. But again, I think this is a very bad idea.
    2. Plasma is also available to Thieves when stealing onto a Mesmer. Also, this skill is one of the most important and impactful stolen items to receive as it is the ONLY way a thief can fight a Mirage without getting completely destroyed. If you nerf Plasma, it will be a huge buff to Mirages as they will now no longer have to worry about a thief +1. So, in my opinion, this is also a terrible suggestion.
      • As for the boon uptime with Fortifying Bond, see this post.
    3. For Splitblade, this skill does 700 damage every 6 seconds (compared to Maul which has 700 damage every 4 seconds). For Winter's Bite, this skill does 500 damage every 10 seconds. If the weakness duration is nerfed, the cooldown should be left alone. So, I disagree with these suggestions as well.
    4. For Soften the Fall, sure. Halving the duration to 5 seconds is fine. However, increasing the interval between each pulse wouldn't make sense. If it only lasts 5 seconds, and it pulses every 2, where does the last pulse go? xD
    5. For Natural Vigor, you're wrong about it's functionality. When Vigor granted 100% endurance regen, you could dodge every 5 seconds. Vigor got nerfed to 50% endurance regen, which means you can dodge every 7.5 seconds. On the other hand, Natural Vigor only gives 25% endurance regen. This means that we can dodge every 9 seconds, not 7.
    1. Companions defence at 3s duration and 10s ICD with 30% boon duration will give you 40% uptime going by Shadowmaths assumptions of used at absolute maximum capacity. That's amazing on it's own. So yes it's very good and that's without mentioning rune of earth which would make it 4.5s. I'd give mirage mantle for that every single day of the week.

    2. Yeah...you know what's also been broken for far too long? Consume plasma on thief. I didn't specify which boons but I was thinking 4 defensive boons (resistance, stab, prot, vigor) and 2 offensive (fury, quickness or alacrity).

    3. Yeah using damage numbers from the wiki might work on someone dumb but it doesn't work on people who look at the damage modifier and the number of hits. It hits much harder than maul. Observe below the buffs.
      March 27, 2018 - Increased damage per axe by 33% in PvP and WvW.
      June 20, 2017 - The damage per axe hit of this skill has been increased by 200% in PvP only.
      10s weakness is FAR TOO LONG. ANet agreed when they nerfed it on corrupts and wintersbite does as much damage as maul...at range...think about it.

    4. The final pulse disappears, yes that means you get 2 pulses. I'm surprised you had to ask, I thought it was implicit.

    5. So, you do realise ranger has perma vigor, 50% uptime on lightning reflexes alone with wilderness knowledge and 25% boon duration? I thought this was implicit considering we were talking about the current ranger in the meta that is boonbeast. Guess what when you have 75% endurance regen that's a dodge every 6.25s but I tend to think people aren't dodging off cool down so I say 7s but then I watched your stream and I found NA is different. I said nothing about nerfing natural vigor or vigor uptime btw.

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    You don't get to provide 3 garbage video clips fighting one sub par thief and 2 npcs and call it proof. I don't need to prove that you're not going to consistently hit every single attack 100% of the time against another player and always have 3 clones up all the time, it is literally part how the game works. Assuming perfect world scenarios makes you and your argument look foolish. If you tone down cleanses so conditions can actually work as a damage over time mechanic than sure go ahead. Otherwise the only thing that is going to work is over the top amounts of condition applications because otherwise almost all condition damage is going to be completely nullified. And oh wow, condition weapons are stacked with conditons? What? That's insane! It's almost as if they were designed to have condition damage as their main output of damage. How absurd. And since when is 6 seconds absurdly long? That's one of the higher durations you can get with Mirages conditions and it's not that long.

    Tell me what condition builds are viable aside from Mirage. I'll wait.

    Edit: The maximum duration for most of Mirages bread and butter conditions is 6ish seconds. Incredibly long is a gross misrepresentation like the rest of your argument. The longest duration conditions you could get are from Torch skills which both have very long cooldowns so I actually dont know what you're talking about now. Thanks for telling me to do the math all it does is make you seem more wrong.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    @shadowpass.4236 feelings mutual page 2 btw.

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Ranger

    Winter’s Bite

    • Problem: 10 second duration weakness on a 10 second cooldown, Enfeebling Strike doesn't get removed if the attack misses.
    • Solution: Reduce weakness duration to 4 seconds, remove the Enfeebling Strike if the attack misses.

    Fortifying Bond

    • Problem: It’s in the same trait line as Windborne Notes. This causes too much synergy between boonshare, warhorn, and One Wolf Pack.
    • Solution: Merge Loud Whistle and Pet’s Prowess in Beastmastery and move Fortifying Bond from Nature Magic to Beastmastery into the now-empty minor trait slot. Make a new minor trait for the empty slot in Nature Magic. Since there is massive synergy between Hunter's Call, One Wolf Pack, Plasma, and Fortifying Bond , this change will cause Warhorn + OWP rangers to lose access to boonshare between them and their pet. This results in significantly shorter boon uptimes and less damage as now, rangers will be forced to choose between boonshare (no longer in Nature Magic) or high damage (CotW + OWP) rather than having both.

    One Wolf Pack

    • Problem: Lasts 12 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (20% uptime). This encourages spamming auto attacks/quick hitting attacks for the entire duration (in other words, mashing your 1 key for 12 seconds).
    • Solution: Reduce the duration to 5 seconds and the cooldown to 40 seconds (12% uptime). Give it a stunbreak + 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds on use.

    Moa Stance

    • Problem: Lasts 15 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (60% uptime).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds (33% uptime).

    Leader of the Pack

    • Problem: For a support trait, it actually benefits the user a lot more than it benefits allies.
    • Solution: Reduce Personal Duration to 100%, increase Allied Duration to 100%, add 20% cooldown reduction to Stances.

    What this doesn't solve is the incredible boon uptime with consume plasma, fortifying bond and Fresh Reinforcement, which is one of the biggest offenders. Nerfing consume plasma to 5-6 boons is what is needed at the very least. Ranger needs some cool down increases to split blade and winters bite alongwith the reduction to weakness, lesser muddy terrain to be half duration and has a 2s interval, companions defence having an ICD of 10s (because with natural vigor you get a dodge every 7s) with a duration increase to 3s.

    I said I was open to suggestions, not that I was going to agree with every one.

    1. Companion's Defence is used in nearly every ranger build. Putting a 10 second internal cooldown on 2 seconds of protection every dodge would hurt Core Ranger and Druid very badly. Not to mention the protection applies at the start of the dodge unlike a Mirage's Mirage Mantle. And, since dodges only last .75 seconds, we only make use of the protection for 1.25 seconds afterwards. So, no, I think this is an extremely poorly thought out suggestion. Increasing the protection duration to 3 seconds would make the issue worse. Getting 5-6 seconds of protection on dodge is arguably stronger than the current iteration of 3 seconds per dodge.
      • If you put an internal cooldown of 10 seconds on this trait, move the protection to the end of the dodge frame and put a 10 second ICD on Mirage Mantle as well. But again, I think this is a very bad idea.
    2. Plasma is also available to Thieves when stealing onto a Mesmer. Also, this skill is one of the most important and impactful stolen items to receive as it is the ONLY way a thief can fight a Mirage without getting completely destroyed. If you nerf Plasma, it will be a huge buff to Mirages as they will now no longer have to worry about a thief +1. So, in my opinion, this is also a terrible suggestion.
      • As for the boon uptime with Fortifying Bond, see this post.
    3. For Splitblade, this skill does 700 damage every 6 seconds (compared to Maul which has 700 damage every 4 seconds). For Winter's Bite, this skill does 500 damage every 10 seconds. If the weakness duration is nerfed, the cooldown should be left alone. So, I disagree with these suggestions as well.
    4. For Soften the Fall, sure. Halving the duration to 5 seconds is fine. However, increasing the interval between each pulse wouldn't make sense. If it only lasts 5 seconds, and it pulses every 2, where does the last pulse go? xD
    5. For Natural Vigor, you're wrong about it's functionality. When Vigor granted 100% endurance regen, you could dodge every 5 seconds. Vigor got nerfed to 50% endurance regen, which means you can dodge every 7.5 seconds. On the other hand, Natural Vigor only gives 25% endurance regen. This means that we can dodge every 9 seconds, not 7.
    1. Companions defence at 3s duration and 10s ICD with 30% boon duration will give you 40% uptime going by Shadowmaths assumptions of used at absolute maximum capacity. That's amazing on it's own. So yes it's very good and that's without mentioning rune of earth which would make it 4.5s. I'd give mirage mantle for that every single day of the week.

    2. Yeah...you know what's also been broken for far too long? Consume plasma on thief. I didn't specify which boons but I was thinking 4 defensive boons (resistance, stab, prot, vigor) and 2 offensive (fury, quickness or alacrity).

    3. Yeah using damage numbers from the wiki might work on someone dumb but it doesn't work on people who look at the damage modifier and the number of hits. It hits much harder than maul. Observe below the buffs.
      March 27, 2018 - Increased damage per axe by 33% in PvP and WvW.
      June 20, 2017 - The damage per axe hit of this skill has been increased by 200% in PvP only.
      10s weakness is FAR TOO LONG. ANet agreed when they nerfed it on corrupts and wintersbite does as much damage as maul...at range...think about it.

    4. The final pulse disappears, yes that means you get 2 pulses. I'm surprised you had to ask, I thought it was implicit.

    5. So, you do realise ranger has perma vigor, 50% uptime on lightning reflexes alone with wilderness knowledge and 25% boon duration? I thought this was implicit considering we were talking about the current ranger in the meta that is boonbeast. Guess what when you have 75% endurance regen that's a dodge every 6.25s but I tend to think people aren't dodging off cool down so I say 7s but then I watched your stream and I found NA is different. I said nothing about nerfing natural vigor or vigor uptime btw.

    The meta boonbeast build uses QZ over LR so the build doesn't have any access to Vigor outside of Plasma.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    1. You don't get to provide 3 garbage video clips fighting one sub par thief and 2 npcs and call it proof. I don't need to prove that you're not going to consistently hit every single attack 100% of the time against another player and always have 3 clones up all the time, it is literally part how the game works. Assuming perfect world scenarios makes you and your argument look foolish. If you tone down cleanses so conditions can actually work as a damage over time mechanic than sure go ahead. Otherwise the only thing that is going to work is over the top amounts of condition applications because otherwise almost all condition damage is going to be completely nullified. And oh wow, condition weapons are stacked with conditons? What? That's insane! It's almost as if they were designed to have condition damage as their main output of damage. How absurd. And since when is 6 seconds absurdly long? That's one of the higher durations you can get with Mirages conditions and it's not that long.

    1. Tell me what condition builds are viable aside from Mirage. I'll wait.

    Edit: The maximum duration for most of Mirages bread and butter conditions is 6ish seconds. Incredibly long is a gross misrepresentation like the rest of your argument. The longest duration conditions you could get are from Torch skills which both have very long cooldowns so I actually dont know what you're talking about now. Thanks for telling me to do the math all it does is make you seem more wrong.

    1. Here's a 4th video clip of me fighting two ~real live!!~ players. Would you like me to record a 5th one?
      Also, for the record, proof is proof. You don't get to declare special rules for what applies and what doesn't. The videos show the immense condition pressure a Mirage is capable of. Unless you're blind, or stupid, you'd understand this point. Again, you can't judge how strong skills are based off the reaction time and skill level of the person on the receiving end of them. By this extremely flawed logic, every single skill/class is balanced because a perfect player with instant reaction time would be able to avoid everything.

    2. Wow, that's a really hard question. /s
      Condi scourge is a meta build and has been since PoF came out. LOL
      I can't tell if you're kidding or actually don't know what you're talking about at this point.

    3. Seems like you forgot about the condi duration stat. A deadshot/wanderer's mesmer with Signet of Midnight 57% condi duration. Not to mention that for most classes, our conditions last for around 2-8 seconds. 6-8 seconds for damaging conditions + blinds is incredibly long especially considering how many MORE stacks a Mirage can apply in comparison to other condi builds.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    @Bazsi.2734 You might want to brush up on your ranger knowledge/builds.

    Yeah I never explicitly said his ranger changes are nerfs though. If you read my first comment in this thread, I gave the changes a "maybe".

    His suggestions for ranger was nothing but buffing.

    Oh. Then I must have misread these:

    Winter’s Bite

    • Problem: 10 second duration weakness on a 10 second cooldown, Enfeebling Strike doesn't get removed if the attack misses.
    • Solution: Reduce weakness duration to 4 seconds, remove the Enfeebling Strike if the attack misses.

    Moa Stance

    • Problem: Lasts 15 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (60% uptime).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds (33% uptime).

    How are these buffs?

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure you've meant the sum of all changes would make Boonbeast a bit stronger. Which they might, but you can have that conversation with OP, I'm more interested in his mirage/holo/thief changes, thats what we've been discussing anyway. Have a nice day!

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    blablabla

    1. When builds are severely overperforming, they need nerfs to bring them back in line with other builds.

    No builds are severly overperforming at the moment. There are some in need of slight toning down, thats all.

    With quickness, Holosmiths can do 7000 damage per second with autoattacks alone. In other words, they can kill someone with 20,000 health in 2.8 seconds with JUST autoattacks. Of course, this doesn't even take might stacks into account. Does this sound balanced to you?

    I'd like to see the exact math for this 7000 damage in a second claim. I've started writing up the numbers based on the old Kinetic Battery build (2225 base AP, 55% base crit chance, 187% critical damage, no access to fury on your own), and best case scenario (everything crits, which has like a 9.5% chance of happening) gives me around 5100. And you explicitly said do not take might stacks into account, thats why I didnt.

    Holo is strong, but it isn't as strong as you want to make it seem.

    Conditions were recently reworked to have a heavier emphasis on the "damage over time" aspect. This means condition stacks were decreased and durations were decreased. However, since Mirage can still burst up to 30 stacks of several conditions at a time (while maintaining 10-15 stacks indefinitely), they are not only STILL able to burst, but their conditions also last incredibly long.

    Incredibly long is relative. Seems like 6 second is an incredibly long time for you. I can manage 30 confusion stacks for 6 seconds, it's called not using skills. Also you can just dodge bursts and manage the pressure. Not a winnable duel by many builds, but good thing pvp is 5v5 so you can disengage or get support.

    S/D thief is not too weak. It is a meta build for a reason.

    We're just going to disagree on this one. I'm not going to write a book about it, listen to some of sindreners rants or something.

    DE is still busted and if you think Silent Scope is fine in it's current state and shouldn't be nerfed, that's also very silly of you.

    Liberal destroyed with facts and logic. How could I possibly respond to this?

    1. I don't think you understand how quickness works. The damage numbers with and without quickness would be exactly the same. The only difference is the speed at which the numbers increase. And, quickness is only a 50% increase in cast time speed (rather than 100% increase). If it was 100%, not having it would result in a 50% dps nerf. However, at 50%, not having it results in a 25% dps nerf, not half.

    That is if you only autoattack, and that autoattack isnt stacking might/vulnerability. If you look at actual pvp, there are a gazillion extra factors (buffs from teammates to boost your burst, conditions, boonremoval, kiting that hinders it etc.) so at the end you'll end up with way less damage if you don't have on demand quickness. For example, if you start Corona Burst without it and get interrupted, there goes you might and stability

    1. I also play DE in plat 3 and can maintain my rating with it. I know how the build works and I know how it's been changed over time. The simple fact is, permanent stealth should not exist, nor should stealth on dodge exist without an ICD. The current iteration has an incredibly strong effect, arguably stronger than Elusive Mind at release.

    You arent on the european ladder, I checked. Also if you truely know how the build works and used to work, you'd know it was literally unplayable without the current iteration of Silent Scope. Only a few of us played DE in ranked before the rework, and all of us swapped classes/had to stop, because it was rating suicide to play with the new Deadeye at first.
    Also being stronger then (PoF-release)Elusive Mind is debateable but okay lets say I'm giving you that... so what? It only proves that rifle deadeye-s kit is so bad that it needs a trait this broken to make it viable. And also it's still not enough in organised tPvP (tournaments), because it's just getting countered by teamwork.

    • If 2 Deadeyes come across each other in WvW, they will both permanently stealth. After 10 minutes, neither one knows if the other is still there and they both walk away. This is NOT engaging gameplay, nor is it fun for any party involved.

    Honestly who cares about WvW? This is the PvP subsection of the forum.

    1. I can see why you're disagreeing with my suggestions, but I don't think your reasons make very much sense. In this post, I explained why.

    No you didn't. I've just read back to make sure: S/D isn't weak just because, Holo is OP because 7K dps(citation needed lol), 6 second conditions are incredibly long, DE is busted because you're plat 3(even though you aren't) and im silly.

  • Wait? No Necromancer nerfs? My class is dead, I guess.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @Bazsi.2734

    Numbering your responses instead of breaking them up makes them a lot easier to read.


    For Holosmith dps:

    1. At 75% critical chance, 187% critical damage, and 25% additional damage from Excessive Energy and Laser's Edge, the auto chain will generally hit for around 5000 damage.
      • (2500 * .75 * 2.12)+((2500-1875) * 1.75) = 5058.75

    So, your math is correct here. However, with quickness, the cast time for the auto chain drops down to about .75 seconds.

    1. In other words, in melee range with autos alone, a holo can deal around 6744 damage per second. (and anything else nearby with a 5 target cap).
      • 5058 * 4/3 = 6744

    Again, like I said to someone else, you can't judge how strong a skill is based off the reaction time and skill level of the people on the receiving end of it. "Oh but the attack can be dodged." is not a viable reason as to why something is or isn't balanced.

    1. Yes, there ARE other variables that can come in to play. However, meta Holosmith can consistently do 7000 damage per second with auto attacks alone. Unless the build gets nerfed, this fact will not change.

    For Mirage:

    1. If you have 15-20 stacks of torment and confusion on you, that means you can't move OR use any skills asides from the 2 dodges on your bar. This makes it easier for the mesmer to keep reapplying conditions after your evade frames and means you have to just sit there until you die if you choose not to instantly cleanse them and take a massive chunk of damage for using a skill. Not to mention, the cast time for your condi cleanse could get interrupted by the Mirage if they're looking out for it. Then, you're 100% dead.

    For Thief:

    1. Again, S/D is meta for a reason. It is a very effective build in Conquest if you know how to play it properly. Go ahead and disagree, but everyone uses it in comps so deny reality all you want.

    2. Facts and logic? Sure. Silent Scope gives a DE access to 3 seconds of stealth on DODGE without an ICD (+20% crit chance while kneeling). Compare this to the majority of stealth skills on other classes that have cooldowns anywhere between 12-30 seconds and you're left with a dodge that's arguably more effective than Elusive Mind was at release.

    3. Silent Scope is the exact same in PvP as it is in WvW. As it stands right now, even in PvP, if two Deadeyes come across each other, they can both permanently stealth for the entire 15 minute duration of the match. Sure, there's no reason to. However, once a DE stealths (since they can do so indefinitely), it's nearly impossible to catch them again unless you immediately AoE reveal them as soon as they go invisible.


    For the ladder:

    1. I play on NA. Even though I play meme builds in solo que this season for stream, I'm still top 100 without caring if I win/lose. 2 seasons ago, when I actually played somewhat seriously, I would've ended #2 NA if I didn't get sniped by a win trader on the last day.

    Funny you should say that when you told everyone that getting hit by DJ means they have L2P issues.

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    ... anyone getting hit by a full range DJ has serious l2p issues.

    1. In a 1v1 setting, sure. Good reaction time means you might be able to consistently dodge a DJ with quickness IF you have enough dodges/evades to do so. However, in an actual Conquest match where you are fighting multiple people and using defensive cooldowns, noticing AND evading a Death's Judgment with quickness (regardless of range) is nearly impossible and will take away a good portion of your health pool.
  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643

    I stated in the first post of the thread that I was only listing skills for the classes I am most familiar with. As a side noder, that would mean the classes I've fought/played the most over the years.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @Bazsi.2734

    Numbering your responses instead of breaking them up makes them a lot easier to read.


    For Holosmith dps:

    1. At 75% critical chance, 187% critical damage, and 25% additional damage from Excessive Energy and Laser's Edge, the auto chain will generally hit for around 5000 damage.
      • (2500 * .75 * 2.12)+((2500-1875) * 1.75) = 5058.75

    So, your math is correct here. However, with quickness, the cast time for the auto chain drops down to about .75 seconds.

    1. In other words, in melee range with autos alone, a holo can deal around 6744 damage per second. (and anything else nearby with a 5 target cap).
      • 5058 * 4/3 = 6744

    Again, like I said to someone else, you can't judge how strong a skill is based off the reaction time and skill level of the people on the receiving end of it. "Oh but the attack can be dodged." is not a viable reason as to why something is or isn't balanced.

    1. Yes, there ARE other variables that can come in to play. However, meta Holosmith can consistently do 7000 damage per second with auto attacks alone. Unless the build gets nerfed, this fact will not change.

    For Mirage:

    1. If you have 15-20 stacks of torment and confusion on you, that means you can't move OR use any skills asides from the 2 dodges on your bar. This makes it easier for the mesmer to keep reapplying conditions after your evade frames and means you have to just sit there until you die if you choose not to instantly cleanse them and take a massive chunk of damage for using a skill. Not to mention, the cast time for your condi cleanse could get interrupted by the Mirage if they're looking out for it. Then, you're 100% dead.

    For Thief:

    1. Again, S/D is meta for a reason. It is a very effective build in Conquest if you know how to play it properly. Go ahead and disagree, but everyone uses it in comps so deny reality all you want.

    2. Facts and logic? Sure. Silent Scope gives a DE access to 3 seconds of stealth on DODGE without an ICD (+20% crit chance while kneeling). Compare this to the majority of stealth skills on other classes that have cooldowns anywhere between 12-30 seconds and you're left with a dodge that's arguably more effective than Elusive Mind was at release.

    3. Silent Scope is the exact same in PvP as it is in WvW. As it stands right now, even in PvP, if two Deadeyes come across each other, they can both permanently stealth for the entire 15 minute duration of the match. Sure, there's no reason to. However, once a DE stealths (since they can do so indefinitely), it's nearly impossible to catch them again unless you immediately AoE reveal them as soon as they go invisible.


    For the ladder:

    1. I play on NA. Even though I play meme builds in solo que this season for stream, I'm still top 100 without caring if I win/lose. 2 seasons ago, when I actually played somewhat seriously, I would've ended #2 NA if I didn't get sniped by a win trader on the last day.

    Funny you should say that when you told everyone that getting hit by DJ means they have L2P issues.

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    ... anyone getting hit by a full range DJ has serious l2p issues.

    1. In a 1v1 setting, sure. Good reaction time means you might be able to consistently dodge a DJ with quickness IF you have enough dodges/evades to do so. However, in an actual Conquest match where you are fighting multiple people and using defensive cooldowns, noticing AND evading a Death's Judgment with quickness (regardless of range) is nearly impossible and will take away a good portion of your health pool.

    Actually your format makes it reading your stuff strange to me but sure whatever. You're playing in NA after all, you grew up with a different everything.

    • And here would be my wall of text of a reply which I just deleted because the balance patch came out so I don't feel like they are relevant anymore -

    Reading through the patchnotes it's quite evident the balance team is taking a more conservative approach to balancing, which I like. There are a boatload of changes so I have to reevaluate the meta in my head before I talk about it anyway.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Ranger

    Winter’s Bite

    • Problem: 10 second duration weakness on a 10 second cooldown, Enfeebling Strike doesn't get removed if the attack misses.
    • Solution: Reduce weakness duration to 4 seconds, remove the Enfeebling Strike if the attack misses.

    Fortifying Bond

    • Problem: It’s in the same trait line as Windborne Notes. This causes too much synergy between boonshare, warhorn, and One Wolf Pack.
    • Solution: Merge Loud Whistle and Pet’s Prowess in Beastmastery and move Fortifying Bond from Nature Magic to Beastmastery into the now-empty minor trait slot. Make a new minor trait for the empty slot in Nature Magic. Since there is massive synergy between Hunter's Call, One Wolf Pack, Plasma, and Fortifying Bond , this change will cause Warhorn + OWP rangers to lose access to boonshare between them and their pet. This results in significantly shorter boon uptimes and less damage as now, rangers will be forced to choose between boonshare (no longer in Nature Magic) or high damage (CotW + OWP) rather than having both.

    One Wolf Pack

    • Problem: Lasts 12 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (20% uptime). This encourages spamming auto attacks/quick hitting attacks for the entire duration (in other words, mashing your 1 key for 12 seconds).
    • Solution: Reduce the duration to 5 seconds and the cooldown to 40 seconds (12% uptime). Give it a stunbreak + 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds on use.

    Moa Stance

    • Problem: Lasts 15 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (60% uptime).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds (33% uptime).

    Leader of the Pack

    • Problem: For a support trait, it actually benefits the user a lot more than it benefits allies.
    • Solution: Reduce Personal Duration to 100%, increase Allied Duration to 100%, add 20% cooldown reduction to Stances.

    No thank you.

    the proposed changes will not fix the boonbeast problem and will overload one dps skill (one wolf pack) with over the top sustain. It will not fix the boonbeast buildinstead it will even break it further.

    what it should be done it to implement the pet swap hile merged with 20 seconds cd (which will not trigger the fresh reinforcement trait) and put a 30 seconds CD in the enter beastmode skill.
    with the 40 seconds CD in moa instance that should make very difficult to keep up the permaboon build. and soulbeat would get access to the per swap traits.

    Heal as one should only apply the copy boon effect when the pet is active the same as fortifing bond and boon sharing skills.

    in my personal opinion one wolf pack is k like it is now, reducing CD will only contribute to more spammy gameplay. if anything this skills should also apply splash
    damage in foes around the target so it can increase the overall dps without increasing the burst.

    i think the changes to doylak were a bad idea, and the changes to griffon were great. if anything increase a bit the superseed duration applied when an attack is evaded.

    the nerf to axe wasnt needed, the problem with boonbeast is has never been the axe. its the synergy between fresh reinforcement, plasma, fortifing bond and we heal as one.

    And because is a problem that only affects the soulbeast what should be nerfed is the interaction of fresh reinforcement. or to remove the trait or as i suggest, to increase the CD in beastmode and include the pet swap while in beastmode.

    there is no need to touch anything else.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Ranger

    Winter’s Bite

    • Problem: 10 second duration weakness on a 10 second cooldown, Enfeebling Strike doesn't get removed if the attack misses.
    • Solution: Reduce weakness duration to 4 seconds, remove the Enfeebling Strike if the attack misses.

    Fortifying Bond

    • Problem: It’s in the same trait line as Windborne Notes. This causes too much synergy between boonshare, warhorn, and One Wolf Pack.
    • Solution: Merge Loud Whistle and Pet’s Prowess in Beastmastery and move Fortifying Bond from Nature Magic to Beastmastery into the now-empty minor trait slot. Make a new minor trait for the empty slot in Nature Magic. Since there is massive synergy between Hunter's Call, One Wolf Pack, Plasma, and Fortifying Bond , this change will cause Warhorn + OWP rangers to lose access to boonshare between them and their pet. This results in significantly shorter boon uptimes and less damage as now, rangers will be forced to choose between boonshare (no longer in Nature Magic) or high damage (CotW + OWP) rather than having both.

    One Wolf Pack

    • Problem: Lasts 12 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (20% uptime). This encourages spamming auto attacks/quick hitting attacks for the entire duration (in other words, mashing your 1 key for 12 seconds).
    • Solution: Reduce the duration to 5 seconds and the cooldown to 40 seconds (12% uptime). Give it a stunbreak + 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds on use.

    Moa Stance

    • Problem: Lasts 15 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (60% uptime).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds (33% uptime).

    Leader of the Pack

    • Problem: For a support trait, it actually benefits the user a lot more than it benefits allies.
    • Solution: Reduce Personal Duration to 100%, increase Allied Duration to 100%, add 20% cooldown reduction to Stances.

    No thank you.

    the proposed changes will not fix the boonbeast problem and will overload one dps skill (one wolf pack) with over the top sustain. It will not fix the boonbeast buildinstead it will even break it further.

    what it should be done it to implement the pet swap hile merged with 20 seconds cd (which will not trigger the fresh reinforcement trait) and put a 30 seconds CD in the enter beastmode skill.
    with the 40 seconds CD in moa instance that should make very difficult to keep up the permaboon build. and soulbeat would get access to the per swap traits.

    Heal as one should only apply the copy boon effect when the pet is active the same as fortifing bond and boon sharing skills.

    in my personal opinion one wolf pack is k like it is now, reducing CD will only contribute to more spammy gameplay. if anything this skills should also apply splash
    damage in foes around the target so it can increase the overall dps without increasing the burst.

    i think the changes to doylak were a bad idea, and the changes to griffon were great. if anything increase a bit the superseed duration applied when an attack is evaded.

    the nerf to axe wasnt needed, the problem with boonbeast is has never been the axe. its the synergy between fresh reinforcement, plasma, fortifing bond and we heal as one.

    And because is a problem that only affects the soulbeast what should be nerfed is the interaction of fresh reinforcement. or to remove the trait or as i suggest, to increase the CD in beastmode and include the pet swap while in beastmode.

    there is no need to touch anything else.

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Ranger

    Winter’s Bite

    • Problem: 10 second duration weakness on a 10 second cooldown, Enfeebling Strike doesn't get removed if the attack misses.
    • Solution: Reduce weakness duration to 4 seconds, remove the Enfeebling Strike if the attack misses.

    Fortifying Bond

    • Problem: It’s in the same trait line as Windborne Notes. This causes too much synergy between boonshare, warhorn, and One Wolf Pack.
    • Solution: Merge Loud Whistle and Pet’s Prowess in Beastmastery and move Fortifying Bond from Nature Magic to Beastmastery into the now-empty minor trait slot. Make a new minor trait for the empty slot in Nature Magic. Since there is massive synergy between Hunter's Call, One Wolf Pack, Plasma, and Fortifying Bond , this change will cause Warhorn + OWP rangers to lose access to boonshare between them and their pet. This results in significantly shorter boon uptimes and less damage as now, rangers will be forced to choose between boonshare (no longer in Nature Magic) or high damage (CotW + OWP) rather than having both.

    One Wolf Pack

    • Problem: Lasts 12 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (20% uptime). This encourages spamming auto attacks/quick hitting attacks for the entire duration (in other words, mashing your 1 key for 12 seconds).
    • Solution: Reduce the duration to 5 seconds and the cooldown to 40 seconds (12% uptime). Give it a stunbreak + 2 stacks of stability for 5 seconds on use.

    Moa Stance

    • Problem: Lasts 15 seconds when traited with Leader of the Pack (60% uptime).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds (33% uptime).

    Leader of the Pack

    • Problem: For a support trait, it actually benefits the user a lot more than it benefits allies.
    • Solution: Reduce Personal Duration to 100%, increase Allied Duration to 100%, add 20% cooldown reduction to Stances.

    No thank you.

    the proposed changes will not fix the boonbeast problem and will overload one dps skill (one wolf pack) with over the top sustain. It will not fix the boonbeast buildinstead it will even break it further.

    what it should be done it to implement the pet swap hile merged with 20 seconds cd (which will not trigger the fresh reinforcement trait) and put a 30 seconds CD in the enter beastmode skill.
    with the 40 seconds CD in moa instance that should make very difficult to keep up the permaboon build. and soulbeat would get access to the per swap traits.

    Heal as one should only apply the copy boon effect when the pet is active the same as fortifing bond and boon sharing skills.

    in my personal opinion one wolf pack is k like it is now, reducing CD will only contribute to more spammy gameplay. if anything this skills should also apply splash
    damage in foes around the target so it can increase the overall dps without increasing the burst.

    i think the changes to doylak were a bad idea, and the changes to griffon were great. if anything increase a bit the superseed duration applied when an attack is evaded.

    the nerf to axe wasnt needed, the problem with boonbeast is has never been the axe. its the synergy between fresh reinforcement, plasma, fortifing bond and we heal as one.

    And because is a problem that only affects the soulbeast what should be nerfed is the interaction of fresh reinforcement. or to remove the trait or as i suggest, to increase the CD in beastmode and include the pet swap while in beastmode.

    there is no need to touch anything else.

    Boonbeast is a gimmick build....outside of it, the soulbeast is not that great really and can be easily outsustained by even an ele, a core ranger in fact can have more sustain than a basic soulbeast, the majority of merged skills are god awful and most traits in the soulbeast line are pretty bad and rarely used. By all means boonbeast should be nerfed but after that we need to take a good look at soulbeast because a basic SB build is worst than a power druid

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Thief

    Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike

    • Problem: Both attacks are unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect from Larcenous Strike. This still encourages skilled gameplay. If an enemy uses a block or has Aegis, the thief can use Flanking Strike and wait for the block/boon to end before using Larcenous Strike. This change prevents this attack from being spammed repeatedly even when an enemy is using a defensive cooldown.

    Death’s Judgement

    • Problem: For a skill that hits incredibly hard, it should not be unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect.

    Silent Scope

    • Problem: This trait gives Deadeyes' extremely easy and frequent access to stealth with no way to stop them. Black Powder + Bound also has the same issue. They give thieves high access to uninterruptible stealth.
    • Solution: Add a 10 second internal cooldown and turn this skill into a buff on the thief’s bar when it’s active. This gives an indicator to the thief and the enemy player when it’s ready to be used.

    Dagger Storm

    • Problem: A 4.5 second evade (9 seconds if recharged with Improvisation) shouldn’t count towards Capture-Point Contribution.
    • Solution: Prevent Capture-Point Contribution.

    Someone finally said the obvious thing. No two part skill should have both parts be unblockable. There is nothing more frustrating than fighting a sd thief when all they do is spam three but you feel like you need to dodge every attack because if you don't you will take absurd damage.

    ALSO the dagger storm is some ripe bull kitten

    OK so do you know WHY S/D became meta and has now stayed meta? The answer is not to remove the unblockable from FS/LS, it fills an anti bunker role and removing the unblockable will shelve it again.

    Yes maybe dagger storm should be looked at, maybe prevent point capture, maybe just reduce the damage a little, not sure. I'm inclined to leave it for the time being because it's not a major issue when you consider a lot of classes can do the same damage in a fraction of the time.

    because the unblockable attack counters people with invuln.

    I was explained by another thief player in spvp reason was its unblockable, and D/P does less well against these builds.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Axl.8924 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Thief

    Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike

    • Problem: Both attacks are unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect from Larcenous Strike. This still encourages skilled gameplay. If an enemy uses a block or has Aegis, the thief can use Flanking Strike and wait for the block/boon to end before using Larcenous Strike. This change prevents this attack from being spammed repeatedly even when an enemy is using a defensive cooldown.

    Death’s Judgement

    • Problem: For a skill that hits incredibly hard, it should not be unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect.

    Silent Scope

    • Problem: This trait gives Deadeyes' extremely easy and frequent access to stealth with no way to stop them. Black Powder + Bound also has the same issue. They give thieves high access to uninterruptible stealth.
    • Solution: Add a 10 second internal cooldown and turn this skill into a buff on the thief’s bar when it’s active. This gives an indicator to the thief and the enemy player when it’s ready to be used.

    Dagger Storm

    • Problem: A 4.5 second evade (9 seconds if recharged with Improvisation) shouldn’t count towards Capture-Point Contribution.
    • Solution: Prevent Capture-Point Contribution.

    Someone finally said the obvious thing. No two part skill should have both parts be unblockable. There is nothing more frustrating than fighting a sd thief when all they do is spam three but you feel like you need to dodge every attack because if you don't you will take absurd damage.

    ALSO the dagger storm is some ripe bull kitten

    OK so do you know WHY S/D became meta and has now stayed meta? The answer is not to remove the unblockable from FS/LS, it fills an anti bunker role and removing the unblockable will shelve it again.

    Yes maybe dagger storm should be looked at, maybe prevent point capture, maybe just reduce the damage a little, not sure. I'm inclined to leave it for the time being because it's not a major issue when you consider a lot of classes can do the same damage in a fraction of the time.

    because the unblockable attack counters people with invuln.

    I was explained by another thief player in spvp reason was its unblockable, and D/P does less well against these builds.

    Unblockable does nothing against invulv.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Thief

    Flanking Strike -> Larcenous Strike

    • Problem: Both attacks are unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect from Larcenous Strike. This still encourages skilled gameplay. If an enemy uses a block or has Aegis, the thief can use Flanking Strike and wait for the block/boon to end before using Larcenous Strike. This change prevents this attack from being spammed repeatedly even when an enemy is using a defensive cooldown.

    Death’s Judgement

    • Problem: For a skill that hits incredibly hard, it should not be unblockable.
    • Solution: Remove the Unblockable effect.

    Silent Scope

    • Problem: This trait gives Deadeyes' extremely easy and frequent access to stealth with no way to stop them. Black Powder + Bound also has the same issue. They give thieves high access to uninterruptible stealth.
    • Solution: Add a 10 second internal cooldown and turn this skill into a buff on the thief’s bar when it’s active. This gives an indicator to the thief and the enemy player when it’s ready to be used.

    Dagger Storm

    • Problem: A 4.5 second evade (9 seconds if recharged with Improvisation) shouldn’t count towards Capture-Point Contribution.
    • Solution: Prevent Capture-Point Contribution.

    Someone finally said the obvious thing. No two part skill should have both parts be unblockable. There is nothing more frustrating than fighting a sd thief when all they do is spam three but you feel like you need to dodge every attack because if you don't you will take absurd damage.

    ALSO the dagger storm is some ripe bull kitten

    OK so do you know WHY S/D became meta and has now stayed meta? The answer is not to remove the unblockable from FS/LS, it fills an anti bunker role and removing the unblockable will shelve it again.

    Yes maybe dagger storm should be looked at, maybe prevent point capture, maybe just reduce the damage a little, not sure. I'm inclined to leave it for the time being because it's not a major issue when you consider a lot of classes can do the same damage in a fraction of the time.

    because the unblockable attack counters people with invuln.

    I was explained by another thief player in spvp reason was its unblockable, and D/P does less well against these builds.

    Not sure if this is sarcasm or not.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    Stealth on dodge needs to go. Sd thief is meta and dp thief is good, other classes just makes it hard to play (fb scourge)

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • @Jaka.3182 said:
    I would just like to point out these 5 meta pof2win sustain and insane number of getoutofthejail cards they have. I play mostly core ranger.
    1. Spellb. forget that they can 3 hit me down and half (not really half but feels like it) of those attacks are cc. But when I avoid all off that they simply run away. I dont know how, I play perma swiftness and have some quickness too and I cant catch them. Basically they can 3 - 4 hit me down and run away at any point they want.
    2. Soulb. Same thing. Insane surv., big dmg and if things go bad they simply 'fly' away and are faster from my quickness core ranger.
    3. Holo. Well enough said about this anomaly in this thread already. I do remember beating one good holo 3 times down to 5 - 10% and they just ran/invuln and healed up and eventually chain cc me when i was out of stunbreaks and killed me in 3 - 4 hits.
    4. de. Anet I just want some pvp pls. Because when i 'fight' this... its not really a fight. Every de has an ability to get away from fight at every point.
    5. Mirage is just a joke. If you some how get them to low vitality they simply port, stealth, blink whatever away.
    So Anet can you please nerf all these get away abilities cuz it doesnt feel like pvp anymore. Can i please kill something as core ranger too? I also play dh and i cant catch any of these if i get them to low morale. Or these pof2win anomalies will continue to have it all from dmg wise, cc, escape capabilities, heals etc?
    Also careful when nerfing core traits... obviously the problem is in pof specs so nerf pof specs... as common sense this sounds.. you never know with anet. Last thing we want is even bigger gap between pof and core/hot. Maybe only radiant hammer guard... no need for precision for them while they have 100% crit chance, 100% retaliation, power as if you have berserk amu and vitality as 2x mara amu all on expense on no need for precision stat. is a bit much. But thats just 1 core class that can fight meta pof trash so i d nerf this lastly.
    But honestly in next balance patch i expect buffs from anet...

    gold 1 player at most

13>
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