[PvP] Sword dual-skills range buff pretty please — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[PvP] Sword dual-skills range buff pretty please

Call me a masochist or whatever, but sword weaver is pretty much the only spec I enjoy running in sPvP.
Sword weaver is pretty much the only spec rn, that actually doesn't feel cheap or gimmicky to play...regardless of its performance in the current meta.

Something that has been bothering me for ages now, is how very hard it is to hit some of the sword melee skills compared to other classes.
Especially for the dual skills.

Revenant sword skills have flat out 450 range on everything (Burst of strength 300).
Ranger GS skills at least have a 220 range (sure, its a GS but w/e) or somekind of short-distance leap attached.
Thief sword skills, without any CDs mind you, have teleports and non-leap leaps (like flanking strike).
Guardian sw skills, 600 range Chanel and another 600 range teleport.
Guardian GS skills, flat out 600 range on everything but the symbol.

Most of these skills also have some kind of lock-on mechanic, where it is basically impossible to miss your skills, once they are cast within range of the target (like Warrior MH dagger for instance).
That most of the sword skills for weaver are frontal arc only, doesn't help as well.

This might be very much a "git gud"-issue, but frontal arc, low range and no lock-on mechanics (like teleports or leaps or whatever), really hurt this spec in comparison to other melees in the game. Imagine taking all of that away from a class like revenant for instance.....pretty garbo imo.

So the skills in question for sword weaver (imo).
Twin strike: 130 range, frontal arc, no lock-on
Cauterizing strike: 180 range, frontal arc, no lock-on
Gale strike: 170 range, frontal arc, no lock-on
Quantum strike: 180 range, frontal arc, no lock-on
Pyro vortex: 130 range, frontal arc, no lock-on.

Also, on a sidenode, can we please get a buff to polaric leap (air sw2).
Reading its skill description right next to something like symbol of blades (guardian sw2) actually makes me cry.

Comments

  • Zelse.9780Zelse.9780 Member ✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    hell no, it's a sword melee like the rest of em

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @Zelse.9780 said:
    hell no, it's a sword melee like the rest of em

    The point of op post is to point out that sword weaver is NOT like the rest of them at the moment. And if youd read the post he makes examples of this very nicely. And how it underpreforms compaired to every other sword skills/class use in game.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, you did forget two skills, Natural Frenzy which has 600 (and just looks cool) and Shearing Edge (also 600). So it does have some range. The question now becomes, how many range attacks should it have to be competitive? Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword. One more would likely be good, though any more than that is questionable considering the number of possible attacks Weaver gets.

  • @Dace.8173 said:
    Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword.

    wth lol

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword.

    wth lol

    Gonna take issue with everything I say?

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    Add flame uprising to the list. The leap should have 600 range and be a bit quicker so that it actually adds a bit to mobility. As it is now it's as quick as running, or even worse if you have a bit higher ping it slows you down.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Well, you did forget two skills, Natural Frenzy which has 600 (and just looks cool) and Shearing Edge (also 600). So it does have some range. The question now becomes, how many range attacks should it have to be competitive? Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword. One more would likely be good, though any more than that is questionable considering the number of possible attacks Weaver gets.

    It's not only the range that needs to be considered, but also the arc of the attack. These attacks are a bit on the narrow side. Also revenants has the option of getting a fully ranged 2nd weapon if they want, so it's not that comparable.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Add flame uprising to the list. The leap should have 600 range and be a bit quicker so that it actually adds a bit to mobility. As it is now it's as quick as running, or even worse if you have a bit higher ping it slows you down.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Well, you did forget two skills, Natural Frenzy which has 600 (and just looks cool) and Shearing Edge (also 600). So it does have some range. The question now becomes, how many range attacks should it have to be competitive? Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword. One more would likely be good, though any more than that is questionable considering the number of possible attacks Weaver gets.

    It's not only the range that needs to be considered, but also the arc of the attack. These attacks are a bit on the narrow side. Also revenants has the option of getting a fully ranged 2nd weapon if they want, so it's not that comparable.

    Arc of attack is something to consider but you can't make an argument that Weaver should have better-ranged attack options and ignore the two it currently has. However, he did leave out two important skills for a discussion like this. There is a world of difference between no attacks and two attacks that need a wider arc (though doesn't Shearing Edge have a wide arc?). Not that I think he left them out on purpose or anything, but perhaps simply forgot to include them in his analysis.

    As for Revenant, it's ranged weapons aren't meta and you aren't going to find very many folks who give up the usefulness of the staff for the slowness of hammer or who will spec into the much weaker Renegade to use the subpar shortbow. If we are to get technical a Weaver could simply add Frost Bow and Flame Axe but we clearly don't consider them as they aren't exactly going to make Weaver stronger for the loss of power in more useful utilities. I would say the same applies to Revenant, subpar and non-meta possibilities aren't really something we should worry about. If we put shortbow and hammer on the table then Frost Bow and Flame Axe should enter the discussion too (although I really don't feel any of those abilities warrant serious consideration). Within the context that the OP is discussing the two would be comparable. What they lack in terms of arc they make up for in terms of distance. They aren't equal in terms of power but the OP wasn't making a power based argument (not yet at least) but an argument about the availability of attacks or lack thereof.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Add flame uprising to the list. The leap should have 600 range and be a bit quicker so that it actually adds a bit to mobility. As it is now it's as quick as running, or even worse if you have a bit higher ping it slows you down.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Well, you did forget two skills, Natural Frenzy which has 600 (and just looks cool) and Shearing Edge (also 600). So it does have some range. The question now becomes, how many range attacks should it have to be competitive? Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword. One more would likely be good, though any more than that is questionable considering the number of possible attacks Weaver gets.

    It's not only the range that needs to be considered, but also the arc of the attack. These attacks are a bit on the narrow side. Also revenants has the option of getting a fully ranged 2nd weapon if they want, so it's not that comparable.

    Arc of attack is something to consider but you can't make an argument that Weaver should have better-ranged attack options and ignore the two it currently has. However, he did leave out two important skills for a discussion like this. There is a world of difference between no attacks and two attacks that need a wider arc (though doesn't Shearing Edge have a wide arc?). Not that I think he left them out on purpose or anything, but perhaps simply forgot to include them in his analysis.

    As for Revenant, it's ranged weapons aren't meta and you aren't going to find very many folks who give up the usefulness of the staff for the slowness of hammer or who will spec into the much weaker Renegade to use the subpar shortbow. If we are to get technical a Weaver could simply add Frost Bow and Flame Axe but we clearly don't consider them as they aren't exactly going to make Weaver stronger for the loss of power in more useful utilities. I would say the same applies to Revenant, subpar and non-meta possibilities aren't really something we should worry about. If we put shortbow and hammer on the table then Frost Bow and Flame Axe should enter the discussion too (although I really don't feel any of those abilities warrant serious consideration). Within the context that the OP is discussing the two would be comparable. What they lack in terms of arc they make up for in terms of distance. They aren't equal in terms of power but the OP wasn't making a power based argument (not yet at least) but an argument about the availability of attacks or lack thereof.

    I didnt include shearing edge or natural frenzy because they are fine as they are imo (shearing edge could be faster, but at close-ish range its fine still).
    I also think, as you correctly implied, that the damage of the skills aren't an issue. Actually hitting them however, is.

    Im not really a beginner when it comes to PvP (consistently playing in high plat 2 / low plat 3) and I honestly doubt that I even have a 50% hitrate over the duration of a match on those skills (not that I count my skilluses). Which frankly, is very frustrating.
    I don't mind people dodging highly telegraphed attacks (like Gale strike for instance), but the fact that they simply don't reach ever so often, is bumming me out a little.
    Enemies walking through you, getting unexpectedly crippled, people simply sidestepping them etc.etc. All of those things happen quite frequently.
    Whereas a revenant (to continue with this example) simply has to press "2" on his keyboard and the 450 range projectiles just hit the closest person like guided missiles regardless if they stand in front of you, to the side, or in your back ==> which is what I meant by "lock-on"-mechanics.

  • zencow.3651zencow.3651 Member ✭✭✭

    Sadly the game hasn't been balanced around WvW since forever.

    For PvE it's fine since mobs don't actively try to avoid getting hit and in sPvP the fact that you can pressure people off points even if you don't hit them gives sword weaver some value since you can win the point and sustain yourself forever in 1v1.

    In WvW however, other classes have better disengage tools to get them beyond 180 range at which your damage effectively drops to zero than your polaric leap/RtL/Lightning Flash could keep up with them. The only time you can win against meta roamers is if you manage to either land Churning Earth (good luck) or sneak on some burn stacks on them before they manage to disengage in which they failed both in disengaging too slowly and failing to cleanse.

  • Weaver's two "ranged" attacks have such slow projectiles that you practically have to be hugging the target to land them. As such they obivously don't count. When you could cast them behind your character to help kite, it didn't matter as much. Now that they've bug "fixed" them, they're garbage that's only useful when the enemy is CC'ed and within 300 range. (or against PvE mobs)

    Scratch that. Shearing Edge (Air/Water) is never useful.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Well, you did forget two skills, Natural Frenzy which has 600 (and just looks cool) and Shearing Edge (also 600). So it does have some range. The question now becomes, how many range attacks should it have to be competitive? Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword. One more would likely be good, though any more than that is questionable considering the number of possible attacks Weaver gets.

    There's a big difference between revenant's 450 range and weaver's trash 180 range and revenant also have more access to teleports/ranged attacks from their utility skills. It's not at all comparable. There's a reason you can easily kite sword weaver but not revs. Those 2 ranged sword weaver skills you mention also have terrible projectile speed that you can literally side step to avoid them. Those skills requiring water attunement also don't help because there's no follow up damage if you attune to water.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Add flame uprising to the list. The leap should have 600 range and be a bit quicker so that it actually adds a bit to mobility. As it is now it's as quick as running, or even worse if you have a bit higher ping it slows you down.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Well, you did forget two skills, Natural Frenzy which has 600 (and just looks cool) and Shearing Edge (also 600). So it does have some range. The question now becomes, how many range attacks should it have to be competitive? Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword. One more would likely be good, though any more than that is questionable considering the number of possible attacks Weaver gets.

    It's not only the range that needs to be considered, but also the arc of the attack. These attacks are a bit on the narrow side. Also revenants has the option of getting a fully ranged 2nd weapon if they want, so it's not that comparable.

    Arc of attack is something to consider but you can't make an argument that Weaver should have better-ranged attack options and ignore the two it currently has. However, he did leave out two important skills for a discussion like this. There is a world of difference between no attacks and two attacks that need a wider arc (though doesn't Shearing Edge have a wide arc?). Not that I think he left them out on purpose or anything, but perhaps simply forgot to include them in his analysis.

    As for Revenant, it's ranged weapons aren't meta and you aren't going to find very many folks who give up the usefulness of the staff for the slowness of hammer or who will spec into the much weaker Renegade to use the subpar shortbow. If we are to get technical a Weaver could simply add Frost Bow and Flame Axe but we clearly don't consider them as they aren't exactly going to make Weaver stronger for the loss of power in more useful utilities. I would say the same applies to Revenant, subpar and non-meta possibilities aren't really something we should worry about. If we put shortbow and hammer on the table then Frost Bow and Flame Axe should enter the discussion too (although I really don't feel any of those abilities warrant serious consideration). Within the context that the OP is discussing the two would be comparable. What they lack in terms of arc they make up for in terms of distance. They aren't equal in terms of power but the OP wasn't making a power based argument (not yet at least) but an argument about the availability of attacks or lack thereof.

    I didnt include shearing edge or natural frenzy because they are fine as they are imo (shearing edge could be faster, but at close-ish range its fine still).
    I also think, as you correctly implied, that the damage of the skills aren't an issue. Actually hitting them however, is.

    Im not really a beginner when it comes to PvP (consistently playing in high plat 2 / low plat 3) and I honestly doubt that I even have a 50% hitrate over the duration of a match on those skills (not that I count my skilluses). Which frankly, is very frustrating.
    I don't mind people dodging highly telegraphed attacks (like Gale strike for instance), but the fact that they simply don't reach ever so often, is bumming me out a little.
    Enemies walking through you, getting unexpectedly crippled, people simply sidestepping them etc.etc. All of those things happen quite frequently.
    Whereas a revenant (to continue with this example) simply has to press "2" on his keyboard and the 450 range projectiles just hit the closest person like guided missiles regardless if they stand in front of you, to the side, or in your back ==> which is what I meant by "lock-on"-mechanics.

    Aaaah, I see. Yeah, I get frustrated at times with how easily Shearing Edge and Natural Frenzy can be dodged compared to other attacks. I think Natural Frenzy or Shearing Edge could be improved if it had the same lock-on targeting that you are referencing. I'm pretty sure Porlaric Leap does, as I don't really recall ever missing with that one. But I could be wrong on that. Personally I think Flame Uprising should have had the same range as Holo Leap but I imagine they cut it down to 450 due to the fact that it was a ranged attack instead of a purely ranged based move. Target lock would be nice as I do get tired of people dodging before I land. If it didn't have a radius it would actually be useless, no matter how impressive it feels when you land and see all this fire around you.

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    There's a big difference between revenant's 450 range and weaver's trash 180 range and revenant also have more access to teleports/ranged attacks from their utility skills. It's not at all comparable. There's a reason you can easily kite sword weaver but not revs. Those 2 ranged sword weaver skills you mention also have terrible projectile speed that you can literally side step to avoid them. Those skills requiring water attunement also don't help because there's no follow up damage if you attune to water.

    Hmmm you'd have a point if you had considered my points in the context I gave them or my point about Revenant had been based around power level/usefulness as opposed to just options available. I already stated that I'm not talking power level. I even stated that a discussion of power level is very different from a discussion on available attacks. I even stated that there is a difference between number of attacks and whether those attacks need to be improved upon. So you don't really have a point there as everything you've mentioned thus far are points I already talked about in my comparison and where I acknowledge the weakness of Weaver in the skills mentioned. You also seem to be missing several attacks.

    Polaric Leap, Natural Frenzy, and Shearing Edge all have a range of 600 and Flame Uprising is 450. For Revenant we have Unrelenting Assualt, Precsion Strike, and Shackling Wave are all 450 and Deathstrike is 600, so basically an inverse. I imagine part of the logic being applied on the range and arc is that the longer range ones have smaller arcs while the shorter range ones have wider arcs. Most of these attacks are hitting from 3 to 5 targets in most cases. The outliers here are Deathstrike and Polaric Leap. Deathstrike has a longer range but only hits one target. So you can Shadowstep to the target or you can be in 130 range but you are landing a hit one person. Polaric Leap hits one person and takes you 600 but it does bestow superspeed so I imagine that's where the make up is in proposed usefulness.

    So ummmm trash 180 is off the table on this one.

    So let's look at Utilities. Power Herald is Revenant's only competitive build and that runs on Glint and Shiro. Glint has no teleports and is boon spam. Shiro provides one teleport. The rest of Shiro and Glint aren't improving range so those attacks are coming purely from weapons. Weaver has Lightening Flash so the two are comparable there. Phase Traversal takes you further with a range of 1200 but you are moving towards your target. Lightning Flash has a shorter range of 900 but puts you anywhere you want to be. So what one has distance as its strength and the other has positioning as its strength. You could make an argument to include Mallyx but it would be a bad one since Mallyx isn't meta and Power Herald doesn't run with it. If you open it up towards all utilities, though the scale starts to slide in Weaver's favor as he gets additional ranged attacks as well and has the ability to mix and match on a level that Revenant can't compete with. I actually support Elementalist getting changes and improvements and have stated numerous times I felt it was underpowered. However, I don't buy into this "woe is me, everything sucks and the others have it sooooooo much better" nonsense that people try to pass off as constructive conversation.

    However, this isn't a discussion about Utility skills. The OP didn't bring them up so I didn't either. This is about weapon skills. If he had wanted to include Utility skills I assumed he would have included the insane number of teleports Guardian has access to. Since they were left out I presumed that this was purely a discussion on the weapons and not the utilties.

    The OP made a post about the number of available attacks open to sword Weaver comparative to other builds. He didn't make a point about power level of those attacks (something he confirmed). I responded to the OP on his terms based on the context I percieved.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @zencow.3651 said:
    Sadly the game hasn't been balanced around WvW since forever.

    For PvE it's fine since mobs don't actively try to avoid getting hit and in sPvP the fact that you can pressure people off points even if you don't hit them gives sword weaver some value since you can win the point and sustain yourself forever in 1v1.

    In WvW however, other classes have better disengage tools to get them beyond 180 range at which your damage effectively drops to zero than your polaric leap/RtL/Lightning Flash could keep up with them. The only time you can win against meta roamers is if you manage to either land Churning Earth (good luck) or sneak on some burn stacks on them before they manage to disengage in which they failed both in disengaging too slowly and failing to cleanse.

    not much of a WvW player myself, but i can really sympathize with you in that regard.
    In PvP I honestly dont even bother with chasing people, unless they are super low maybe.
    If an enemy decided to run from you and doesnt trade hits with you, sword damage drops by a perceived 50%.

    For anybody thinking im over exaggerating here: A little self experiment:
    Try hitting a target that moves at about your speed in the direction you are facing with firegrab.
    Now imagine the same for skills that have half that range.
    In PvP it feels like at least two thirds of my damage come from primordial stance and other pulsing AoEs (like Lava skin) only.
    Other skills simply dont connect often enough to add any significant value.

    I feel like the Ele-devs "vision" for sword gameplay in PvP was to have a ridiculously high uptime on your target ( = the ability to stick to it in melee range), due to the access of superspeed and swiftness, so they decided to compensate with low range skills.
    Problem is, that you dont have THAT high of an uptime on your target.
    Sure, you can spec into air for more movementspeed and superspeed access, but Air really is subpar for player combat.
    Weaver essentially needs the water traitline if they dont want to die in anguish just by looking at a mirage or a scourge and arcane simply synergizes too well with the spec to give it a pass.

    But trait- and buildstructures really go beyond the range of this thread, so I dont even want to go there.

  • @Dace.8173 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword.

    wth lol

    Gonna take issue with everything I say?

    its a pointless comparison to make cuz while you may be technically right in practice youre wrong.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Two ranged attacks put it on par with Revenant though clearly not at the level of something like Guardian greatsword.

    wth lol

    Gonna take issue with everything I say?

    its a pointless comparison to make cuz while you may be technically right in practice youre wrong.

    It's only pointless when you remove context (or don't care about the context of the thread itself). My comment was purely on the terms the OP setup and in that regard, I am correct. The OP was already comparing them in the fashion I was and that was the only reason I even touched upon Revenant. Why it's ok for him to make the comparison but not me is beyond me, honestly.

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:
    Sadly the game hasn't been balanced around WvW since forever.

    For PvE it's fine since mobs don't actively try to avoid getting hit and in sPvP the fact that you can pressure people off points even if you don't hit them gives sword weaver some value since you can win the point and sustain yourself forever in 1v1.

    In WvW however, other classes have better disengage tools to get them beyond 180 range at which your damage effectively drops to zero than your polaric leap/RtL/Lightning Flash could keep up with them. The only time you can win against meta roamers is if you manage to either land Churning Earth (good luck) or sneak on some burn stacks on them before they manage to disengage in which they failed both in disengaging too slowly and failing to cleanse.

    not much of a WvW player myself, but i can really sympathize with you in that regard.
    In PvP I honestly dont even bother with chasing people, unless they are super low maybe.
    If an enemy decided to run from you and doesnt trade hits with you, sword damage drops by a perceived 50%.

    For anybody thinking im over exaggerating here: A little self experiment:
    Try hitting a target that moves at about your speed in the direction you are facing with firegrab.
    Now imagine the same for skills that have half that range.
    In PvP it feels like at least two thirds of my damage come from primordial stance and other pulsing AoEs (like Lava skin) only.
    Other skills simply dont connect often enough to add any significant value.

    I feel like the Ele-devs "vision" for sword gameplay in PvP was to have a ridiculously high uptime on your target ( = the ability to stick to it in melee range), due to the access of superspeed and swiftness, so they decided to compensate with low range skills.
    Problem is, that you dont have THAT high of an uptime on your target.
    Sure, you can spec into air for more movementspeed and superspeed access, but Air really is subpar for player combat.
    Weaver essentially needs the water traitline if they dont want to die in anguish just by looking at a mirage or a scourge and arcane simply synergizes too well with the spec to give it a pass.

    But trait- and buildstructures really go beyond the range of this thread, so I dont even want to go there.

    WvW is rough for Weaver. The wider range of space makes it difficult to remain locked on to a target. Staff Weaver does fine in Zerg situations but it kinda falls apart from there. I typically play Tempest there to make use of the Overloads, which tend to at least give me better speed boosts than I get with standard Weaver and make use of scepter for the 900 range it offers me.

    However, I don't think you're exaggerating, range for Weaver can be an issue (it's why my PvE builds tend to also carry Frost Bow and/or Flame Axe). I think the inherent problem for Weaver is that a lot of the current meta builds have great mobility. This likely wasn't an issue during playtest. However when you magnify the number of people testing out builds from a handful of people to hundreds of people interactions that were unforeseen in playtest start to show. I think Weaver works best in PvP when it has long-range support backing it up, i.e. there is a Ranger or Deadeye on the team whose long-distance attacks are distracting your target.

    I kinda get the impression at times that Weaver was conceived as a +1 fighter.

  • zencow.3651zencow.3651 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:
    WvW is rough for Weaver. The wider range of space makes it difficult to remain locked on to a target. Staff Weaver does fine in Zerg situations but it kinda falls apart from there. I typically play Tempest there to make use of the Overloads, which tend to at least give me better speed boosts than I get with standard Weaver and make use of scepter for the 900 range it offers me.

    However, I don't think you're exaggerating, range for Weaver can be an issue (it's why my PvE builds tend to also carry Frost Bow and/or Flame Axe). I think the inherent problem for Weaver is that a lot of the current meta builds have great mobility. This likely wasn't an issue during playtest. However when you magnify the number of people testing out builds from a handful of people to hundreds of people interactions that were unforeseen in playtest start to show. I think Weaver works best in PvP when it has long-range support backing it up, i.e. there is a Ranger or Deadeye on the team whose long-distance attacks are distracting your target.

    I kinda get the impression at times that Weaver was conceived as a +1 fighter.

    Except the sPvP the +1 slot is already best taken by someone else who can finish fights more quickly. When engaging to +1 as sword weaver, the melee range lock becomes really frustrating on Foefire and Colosseum. Too many +1 and side node players also isn't very optimal in the main yolo-que setting where a team comp like Weaver/Deadeye/Spellbreaker on the same team often spells defeat due to lack of main team power since it's more likely that everyone can't coordinate.

    On the other hand, the most enjoyable experiences in WvW roaming as a sword weaver I've had is to be the support/distraction for a glass cannon ranger/thief: stomp people they down, heal and condi-clear for them a little with Water Attune/Cleansing Wave/Evasive Arcana water and reviving them if they get downed. It allows for some fun mobile 2vsX fights where you can pick of targets as compared to meta supports like firebrand/scourge who aren't meta in roaming as they will be forced to make a stand and die when outnumbered.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    WvW is rough for Weaver. The wider range of space makes it difficult to remain locked on to a target. Staff Weaver does fine in Zerg situations but it kinda falls apart from there. I typically play Tempest there to make use of the Overloads, which tend to at least give me better speed boosts than I get with standard Weaver and make use of scepter for the 900 range it offers me.

    However, I don't think you're exaggerating, range for Weaver can be an issue (it's why my PvE builds tend to also carry Frost Bow and/or Flame Axe). I think the inherent problem for Weaver is that a lot of the current meta builds have great mobility. This likely wasn't an issue during playtest. However when you magnify the number of people testing out builds from a handful of people to hundreds of people interactions that were unforeseen in playtest start to show. I think Weaver works best in PvP when it has long-range support backing it up, i.e. there is a Ranger or Deadeye on the team whose long-distance attacks are distracting your target.

    I kinda get the impression at times that Weaver was conceived as a +1 fighter.

    Except the sPvP the +1 slot is already best taken by someone else who can finish fights more quickly. When engaging to +1 as sword weaver, the melee range lock becomes really frustrating on Foefire and Colosseum. Too many +1 and side node players also isn't very optimal in the main yolo-que setting where a team comp like Weaver/Deadeye/Spellbreaker on the same team often spells defeat due to lack of main team power since it's more likely that everyone can't coordinate.

    On the other hand, the most enjoyable experiences in WvW roaming as a sword weaver I've had is to be the support/distraction for a glass cannon ranger/thief: stomp people they down, heal and condi-clear for them a little with Water Attune/Cleansing Wave/Evasive Arcana water and reviving them if they get downed. It allows for some fun mobile 2vsX fights where you can pick of targets as compared to meta supports like firebrand/scourge who aren't meta in roaming as they will be forced to make a stand and die when outnumbered.

    Well, I'm not saying it's the best +1 but just that I think that was the original goal. The damage output problem of Weaver makes it difficult for it to fulfill any role the developers may have had in mind when designing it. However, I'm not making an argument about power level or ability to do the thing, just my theory on what the thing may have originally been.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    WvW is rough for Weaver. The wider range of space makes it difficult to remain locked on to a target. Staff Weaver does fine in Zerg situations but it kinda falls apart from there. I typically play Tempest there to make use of the Overloads, which tend to at least give me better speed boosts than I get with standard Weaver and make use of scepter for the 900 range it offers me.

    However, I don't think you're exaggerating, range for Weaver can be an issue (it's why my PvE builds tend to also carry Frost Bow and/or Flame Axe). I think the inherent problem for Weaver is that a lot of the current meta builds have great mobility. This likely wasn't an issue during playtest. However when you magnify the number of people testing out builds from a handful of people to hundreds of people interactions that were unforeseen in playtest start to show. I think Weaver works best in PvP when it has long-range support backing it up, i.e. there is a Ranger or Deadeye on the team whose long-distance attacks are distracting your target.

    I kinda get the impression at times that Weaver was conceived as a +1 fighter.

    Except the sPvP the +1 slot is already best taken by someone else who can finish fights more quickly. When engaging to +1 as sword weaver, the melee range lock becomes really frustrating on Foefire and Colosseum. Too many +1 and side node players also isn't very optimal in the main yolo-que setting where a team comp like Weaver/Deadeye/Spellbreaker on the same team often spells defeat due to lack of main team power since it's more likely that everyone can't coordinate.

    On the other hand, the most enjoyable experiences in WvW roaming as a sword weaver I've had is to be the support/distraction for a glass cannon ranger/thief: stomp people they down, heal and condi-clear for them a little with Water Attune/Cleansing Wave/Evasive Arcana water and reviving them if they get downed. It allows for some fun mobile 2vsX fights where you can pick of targets as compared to meta supports like firebrand/scourge who aren't meta in roaming as they will be forced to make a stand and die when outnumbered.

    Well, I'm not saying it's the best +1 but just that I think that was the original goal. The damage output problem of Weaver makes it difficult for it to fulfill any role the developers may have had in mind when designing it. However, I'm not making an argument about power level or ability to do the thing, just my theory on what the thing may have originally been.

    Technically the problem is not even the damage. The damage potential certainly exists, just on a target that never moves. It also doesn't help that you need to invest nearly everything in your defenses while other classes get theirs almost for free.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    WvW is rough for Weaver. The wider range of space makes it difficult to remain locked on to a target. Staff Weaver does fine in Zerg situations but it kinda falls apart from there. I typically play Tempest there to make use of the Overloads, which tend to at least give me better speed boosts than I get with standard Weaver and make use of scepter for the 900 range it offers me.

    However, I don't think you're exaggerating, range for Weaver can be an issue (it's why my PvE builds tend to also carry Frost Bow and/or Flame Axe). I think the inherent problem for Weaver is that a lot of the current meta builds have great mobility. This likely wasn't an issue during playtest. However when you magnify the number of people testing out builds from a handful of people to hundreds of people interactions that were unforeseen in playtest start to show. I think Weaver works best in PvP when it has long-range support backing it up, i.e. there is a Ranger or Deadeye on the team whose long-distance attacks are distracting your target.

    I kinda get the impression at times that Weaver was conceived as a +1 fighter.

    Except the sPvP the +1 slot is already best taken by someone else who can finish fights more quickly. When engaging to +1 as sword weaver, the melee range lock becomes really frustrating on Foefire and Colosseum. Too many +1 and side node players also isn't very optimal in the main yolo-que setting where a team comp like Weaver/Deadeye/Spellbreaker on the same team often spells defeat due to lack of main team power since it's more likely that everyone can't coordinate.

    On the other hand, the most enjoyable experiences in WvW roaming as a sword weaver I've had is to be the support/distraction for a glass cannon ranger/thief: stomp people they down, heal and condi-clear for them a little with Water Attune/Cleansing Wave/Evasive Arcana water and reviving them if they get downed. It allows for some fun mobile 2vsX fights where you can pick of targets as compared to meta supports like firebrand/scourge who aren't meta in roaming as they will be forced to make a stand and die when outnumbered.

    Well, I'm not saying it's the best +1 but just that I think that was the original goal. The damage output problem of Weaver makes it difficult for it to fulfill any role the developers may have had in mind when designing it. However, I'm not making an argument about power level or ability to do the thing, just my theory on what the thing may have originally been.

    Technically the problem is not even the damage. The damage potential certainly exists, just on a target that never moves. It also doesn't help that you need to invest nearly everything in your defenses while other classes get theirs almost for free.

    I think investing everything in defenses would be fine if the damage level didn't require you to invest in that too. I think it's having to choose between the two that's the problem. We likely just disagree with which one should be inherent and which one should be the investment.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    WvW is rough for Weaver. The wider range of space makes it difficult to remain locked on to a target. Staff Weaver does fine in Zerg situations but it kinda falls apart from there. I typically play Tempest there to make use of the Overloads, which tend to at least give me better speed boosts than I get with standard Weaver and make use of scepter for the 900 range it offers me.

    However, I don't think you're exaggerating, range for Weaver can be an issue (it's why my PvE builds tend to also carry Frost Bow and/or Flame Axe). I think the inherent problem for Weaver is that a lot of the current meta builds have great mobility. This likely wasn't an issue during playtest. However when you magnify the number of people testing out builds from a handful of people to hundreds of people interactions that were unforeseen in playtest start to show. I think Weaver works best in PvP when it has long-range support backing it up, i.e. there is a Ranger or Deadeye on the team whose long-distance attacks are distracting your target.

    I kinda get the impression at times that Weaver was conceived as a +1 fighter.

    Except the sPvP the +1 slot is already best taken by someone else who can finish fights more quickly. When engaging to +1 as sword weaver, the melee range lock becomes really frustrating on Foefire and Colosseum. Too many +1 and side node players also isn't very optimal in the main yolo-que setting where a team comp like Weaver/Deadeye/Spellbreaker on the same team often spells defeat due to lack of main team power since it's more likely that everyone can't coordinate.

    On the other hand, the most enjoyable experiences in WvW roaming as a sword weaver I've had is to be the support/distraction for a glass cannon ranger/thief: stomp people they down, heal and condi-clear for them a little with Water Attune/Cleansing Wave/Evasive Arcana water and reviving them if they get downed. It allows for some fun mobile 2vsX fights where you can pick of targets as compared to meta supports like firebrand/scourge who aren't meta in roaming as they will be forced to make a stand and die when outnumbered.

    Well, I'm not saying it's the best +1 but just that I think that was the original goal. The damage output problem of Weaver makes it difficult for it to fulfill any role the developers may have had in mind when designing it. However, I'm not making an argument about power level or ability to do the thing, just my theory on what the thing may have originally been.

    Technically the problem is not even the damage. The damage potential certainly exists, just on a target that never moves. It also doesn't help that you need to invest nearly everything in your defenses while other classes get theirs almost for free.

    I think investing everything in defenses would be fine if the damage level didn't require you to invest in that too. I think it's having to choose between the two that's the problem. We likely just disagree with which one should be inherent and which one should be the investment.

    I would agree with the suggestion to increase the base damage of ele while removing damage modifiers and the like, since ele does appear to have a stat deficit somewhere. However, no matter what happens something in core has to be reworked, whether that's base damage or base defense.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    WvW is rough for Weaver. The wider range of space makes it difficult to remain locked on to a target. Staff Weaver does fine in Zerg situations but it kinda falls apart from there. I typically play Tempest there to make use of the Overloads, which tend to at least give me better speed boosts than I get with standard Weaver and make use of scepter for the 900 range it offers me.

    However, I don't think you're exaggerating, range for Weaver can be an issue (it's why my PvE builds tend to also carry Frost Bow and/or Flame Axe). I think the inherent problem for Weaver is that a lot of the current meta builds have great mobility. This likely wasn't an issue during playtest. However when you magnify the number of people testing out builds from a handful of people to hundreds of people interactions that were unforeseen in playtest start to show. I think Weaver works best in PvP when it has long-range support backing it up, i.e. there is a Ranger or Deadeye on the team whose long-distance attacks are distracting your target.

    I kinda get the impression at times that Weaver was conceived as a +1 fighter.

    Except the sPvP the +1 slot is already best taken by someone else who can finish fights more quickly. When engaging to +1 as sword weaver, the melee range lock becomes really frustrating on Foefire and Colosseum. Too many +1 and side node players also isn't very optimal in the main yolo-que setting where a team comp like Weaver/Deadeye/Spellbreaker on the same team often spells defeat due to lack of main team power since it's more likely that everyone can't coordinate.

    On the other hand, the most enjoyable experiences in WvW roaming as a sword weaver I've had is to be the support/distraction for a glass cannon ranger/thief: stomp people they down, heal and condi-clear for them a little with Water Attune/Cleansing Wave/Evasive Arcana water and reviving them if they get downed. It allows for some fun mobile 2vsX fights where you can pick of targets as compared to meta supports like firebrand/scourge who aren't meta in roaming as they will be forced to make a stand and die when outnumbered.

    Well, I'm not saying it's the best +1 but just that I think that was the original goal. The damage output problem of Weaver makes it difficult for it to fulfill any role the developers may have had in mind when designing it. However, I'm not making an argument about power level or ability to do the thing, just my theory on what the thing may have originally been.

    Technically the problem is not even the damage. The damage potential certainly exists, just on a target that never moves. It also doesn't help that you need to invest nearly everything in your defenses while other classes get theirs almost for free.

    I think investing everything in defenses would be fine if the damage level didn't require you to invest in that too. I think it's having to choose between the two that's the problem. We likely just disagree with which one should be inherent and which one should be the investment.

    I would agree with the suggestion to increase the base damage of ele while removing damage modifiers and the like, since ele does appear to have a stat deficit somewhere. However, no matter what happens something in core has to be reworked, whether that's base damage or base defense.

    I don't think a flat dmg boost or flat defense boost (be it HP boost or anything else as some people ask for) would make the ele better. It would make it bland.

    Ele has a stat deficient and the exchange for that is versatility. The stat deficiency should be paid off with the traitlines bonuses, so that ele can achieve higher results for a extreme specialization.

    That means that for having less basic armor and HP, ele should be able to achieve higher dmg if fully specialized for it (fire/air full zerker) than any other class that tries to fully specialize in dmg but can't abdicate its base defenses (hp/armor). In the same way the ele should be able to specialize deep into defense (earth/water full minstrel) and have zero dmg but be very resistant.

    The fact that ele has a stat deficiency should make it able to specialize further and higher than other classes. Yes, it should be top dps against a golem, but in a real dangerous scenario achieving that dps should depend on how you can abdicate all those defenses or how can your group defend you so you can channel all your skills without interruption. This give good groups and players a high skill ceiling to go for.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    WvW is rough for Weaver. The wider range of space makes it difficult to remain locked on to a target. Staff Weaver does fine in Zerg situations but it kinda falls apart from there. I typically play Tempest there to make use of the Overloads, which tend to at least give me better speed boosts than I get with standard Weaver and make use of scepter for the 900 range it offers me.

    However, I don't think you're exaggerating, range for Weaver can be an issue (it's why my PvE builds tend to also carry Frost Bow and/or Flame Axe). I think the inherent problem for Weaver is that a lot of the current meta builds have great mobility. This likely wasn't an issue during playtest. However when you magnify the number of people testing out builds from a handful of people to hundreds of people interactions that were unforeseen in playtest start to show. I think Weaver works best in PvP when it has long-range support backing it up, i.e. there is a Ranger or Deadeye on the team whose long-distance attacks are distracting your target.

    I kinda get the impression at times that Weaver was conceived as a +1 fighter.

    Except the sPvP the +1 slot is already best taken by someone else who can finish fights more quickly. When engaging to +1 as sword weaver, the melee range lock becomes really frustrating on Foefire and Colosseum. Too many +1 and side node players also isn't very optimal in the main yolo-que setting where a team comp like Weaver/Deadeye/Spellbreaker on the same team often spells defeat due to lack of main team power since it's more likely that everyone can't coordinate.

    On the other hand, the most enjoyable experiences in WvW roaming as a sword weaver I've had is to be the support/distraction for a glass cannon ranger/thief: stomp people they down, heal and condi-clear for them a little with Water Attune/Cleansing Wave/Evasive Arcana water and reviving them if they get downed. It allows for some fun mobile 2vsX fights where you can pick of targets as compared to meta supports like firebrand/scourge who aren't meta in roaming as they will be forced to make a stand and die when outnumbered.

    Well, I'm not saying it's the best +1 but just that I think that was the original goal. The damage output problem of Weaver makes it difficult for it to fulfill any role the developers may have had in mind when designing it. However, I'm not making an argument about power level or ability to do the thing, just my theory on what the thing may have originally been.

    Technically the problem is not even the damage. The damage potential certainly exists, just on a target that never moves. It also doesn't help that you need to invest nearly everything in your defenses while other classes get theirs almost for free.

    I think investing everything in defenses would be fine if the damage level didn't require you to invest in that too. I think it's having to choose between the two that's the problem. We likely just disagree with which one should be inherent and which one should be the investment.

    I would agree with the suggestion to increase the base damage of ele while removing damage modifiers and the like, since ele does appear to have a stat deficit somewhere. However, no matter what happens something in core has to be reworked, whether that's base damage or base defense.

    I don't think a flat dmg boost or flat defense boost (be it HP boost or anything else as some people ask for) would make the ele better. It would make it bland.

    Ele has a stat deficient and the exchange for that is versatility. The stat deficiency should be paid off with the traitlines bonuses, so that ele can achieve higher results for a extreme specialization.

    That means that for having less basic armor and HP, ele should be able to achieve higher dmg if fully specialized for it (fire/air full zerker) than any other class that tries to fully specialize in dmg but can't abdicate its base defenses (hp/armor). In the same way the ele should be able to specialize deep into defense (earth/water full minstrel) and have zero dmg but be very resistant.

    The fact that ele has a stat deficiency should make it able to specialize further and higher than other classes. Yes, it should be top dps against a golem, but in a real dangerous scenario achieving that dps should depend on how you can abdicate all those defenses or how can your group defend you so you can channel all your skills without interruption. This give good groups and players a high skill ceiling to go for.

    We've already seen how this works out. Ele gets buffed to be insanely good at one thing, then people complain about its DPS in raids, then it gets nerfed into uselessness. I don't think this can work with the way Anet balances the game.

  • @Dace.8173 said:
    It's only pointless when you remove context (or don't care about the context of the thread itself). My comment was purely on the terms the OP setup and in that regard, I am correct. The OP was already comparing them in the fashion I was and that was the only reason I even touched upon Revenant. Why it's ok for him to make the comparison but not me is beyond me, honestly.

    because youre dace lol. I suppose the way it was worded threw me off.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018

    It needs stronger and/or faster AA ; Earth AA chain should be Bleeding > Cripple > Bleeding or be faster, like war's sword.
    Better tracking/speed for dual attacks earth/water and air/water.
    Air #2 should be 10 or 12sec CD instead of 15sec.

    • It would help a lot to stick enemies.

    The argument of "20 skills" is inconsequent; numbers don't make quality; and I only see 5 skills and attunements. AA are too weak, weapons skills are weak or too long CD and cast-time, and because we need to swap cd off to rollface every attunements and skills we have, arcane is too mandatory,

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    I don't think a flat dmg boost or flat defense boost (be it HP boost or anything else as some people ask for) would make the ele better. It would make it bland.

    Ele has a stat deficient and the exchange for that is versatility. The stat deficiency should be paid off with the traitlines bonuses, so that ele can achieve higher results for a extreme specialization.

    That means that for having less basic armor and HP, ele should be able to achieve higher dmg if fully specialized for it (fire/air full zerker) than any other class that tries to fully specialize in dmg but can't abdicate its base defenses (hp/armor). In the same way the ele should be able to specialize deep into defense (earth/water full minstrel) and have zero dmg but be very resistant.

    The fact that ele has a stat deficiency should make it able to specialize further and higher than other classes. Yes, it should be top dps against a golem, but in a real dangerous scenario achieving that dps should depend on how you can abdicate all those defenses or how can your group defend you so you can channel all your skills without interruption. This give good groups and players a high skill ceiling to go for.

    How is being able to stay alive or being able to kill stuff bland? Engineer has versatility and Holosmith is 100% meta so the idea that Elementalist has to give up it's versatility just isn't supported by other professions in the game. Actually, Engineer/Holosmith is a really good template of what Elementalist could be without losing any of its flavor or versatility since the two professions share similar conceptual themes, such as being versatile and having a tool/spell for just about every problem.

    If Elementalist had better baseline states extreme specialization would be feasible. But you have to start that from a very solid foundation because not everyone wants to extreme specialize. Some folks may want to play a more traditional wizard type faction and instead of specializing being good at a wider range but not overtly powerful as specialization would provide. If specialization started from a place where a player could opt to not specialize and do well then extreme specialization would actually pay off as it would have a stronger foundation to build on. A stronger foundation, i.e. better baseline stats, would also provide Elementalist the ability to weather nerfs without moving from being OP to being useless.

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    I would agree with the suggestion to increase the base damage of ele while removing damage modifiers and the like, since ele does appear to have a stat deficit somewhere. However, no matter what happens something in core has to be reworked, whether that's base damage or base defense.

    I favor Elementalist having a stronger base level of damage since nerfs to defense are not nearly as prevalent as nerfs to damage output.

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