Suggestion for defensive fix: New Shroud traits

I have 3 ideas to make Shroud more defensive in the way that we need.

1. Give shroud skill charges (like Blood is Power has). Either by trait or by default let us go in and out of shroud in an instant but increase recharge time to 12s.
2. Give 1s of invulnerability upon entering shroud and 1 additional second if LF is full on entering. This would be a good death magic GM trait.
3. Have all damage that brings a necro out of shroud reduced to 0 and invulnerability for 1/2 sec. So no instant death on exit. Another DM GM trait?

Now all 3 can be traited or permanent. And of course, some people will say all 3 at the same time will be op so just know these are 3 separate ideas. I'd like to see any or all of them. Let me know what you think.

Or they could give us access to utility skills.And maybe have a “Stone heart”-trait for shroud.

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:Or they could give us access to utility skills.And maybe have a “Stone heart”-trait for shroud.

Ah I like the stone heart idea. Might be a bit to strong thought.

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:Or they could give us access to utility skills.And maybe have a “Stone heart”-trait for shroud.

People have asked for utility skills in shroud for years. I don't see it happening. Maybe as an ES down the road.A Stone Heart like effect would be good though.

@Akrasia.5469 said:

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:Or they could give us access to utility skills.And maybe have a “Stone heart”-trait for shroud.

Scourge kind of went down that route already. No lock out of utilites/weapon skills. No extra health bar. More use out of specific shroud traits such as only procc'ing on certain skills. We just need something to improve on that design really.

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Akrasia.5469 said:

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:Or they could give us access to utility skills.And maybe have a “Stone heart”-trait for shroud.

It was thinking of an idea for this and maybe as an idea for a new ES. Maybe a mechanic where there is a shroud but instead of a new weapon set the shroud replaces the utility skills and leaves the equipped weapons as is. The skills in shroud would be more utility adding mobility and defensive skills.

+1 to stone heart effect (crits not working vs shrouded necro).

I'd like to see Unholy Sanctuary get this effect. To balance it it could be at expense of higher lf degen (+1% per second) or shorter shroud for scourge (-1 or -2 seconds), since scourges are pretty disgusting with barrier sharing.

@Akrasia.5469 said:It was thinking of an idea for this and maybe as an idea for a new ES. Maybe a mechanic where there is a shroud but instead of a new weapon set the shroud replaces the utility skills and leaves the equipped weapons as is. The skills in shroud would be more utility adding mobility and defensive skills.

Some core traits would end up being a huge issue with a shroud like this. Not that I wouldn't be pleased if they were to rework those traits but honnestly some players would cry buckets and even rivers of bloody tears if they were to touch those traits.

Simply add / tweak a few (Grandmaster) traits that can get the job done:

• Unholy Sanctuary - Activate Shroud when taking a lethal blow while above the Lifeforce treshold + Shroud now uses an ammo system. 3 Charges, 3 sec cooldown between uses, 12 seconds recharge per charge (Recharge also works during shroud)
• Putrid defense - now also causes poison to foes hitting you while you have protection
• Corruptors Fervor : take reduced damage and condition damage for each condition on the foe that damagaes you: 3% per unique condition.
• Parasitic Contagion: Now heals for a flat amount for each condition applied (150) (per stack), 5% of your condition damage heals you
• Weakening Shroud: Add - enfeeble now causes slow. Causing weakness also slows your target (ICD per Target)
• Last Rites: Remove the stopped bleeding out part and replace with: When you go down lifeforce erupts from you, healing and reviving nearby allies including yourself
• Unholy Martyr: add when you draw a condition from an ally gain health. When you transfer an condition to an enemy steal health.
• Spiteful Spirit: add - when removing or corrupting a boon you deal damage and cause AOE blind
• Rework all minion traits like they do with weapon traits (Give them an additional benefit that is not tied to minions)

@Brujeria.7536 said:Simply add / tweak a few (Grandmaster) traits that can get the job done:

• Unholy Sanctuary - Activate Shroud when taking a lethal blow while above the Lifeforce treshold + Shroud now uses an ammo system. 3 Charges, 3 sec cooldown between uses, 12 seconds recharge per charge (Recharge also works during shroud)I dont understand this at all.
• Putrid defense - now also causes poison to foes hitting you while you have protectionAnet wont do this they just did a complte culling on traits that punish players for landing hits on other players this wont happen.
• Corruptors Fervor : take reduced damage and condition damage for each condition on the foe that damagaes you: 3% per unique condition.Why is this simply not your idea for Putrid Defense :/
• Parasitic Contagion: Now heals for a flat amount for each condition applied (150) (per stack), 5% of your condition damage heals youSimply take the current version and allow it to work with a 100% boost while in shroud meaning increased healing during shroud time as opposed to being punished with 0 healing in shroud.
• Weakening Shroud: Add - enfeeble now causes slow. Causing weakness also slows your target (ICD per Target)Mehhh not really needed
• Last Rites: Remove the stopped bleeding out part and replace with: When you go down lifeforce erupts from you, healing and reviving nearby allies including yourselfLast rights is by all means supportive i think its ok as is maybe give it a slight boost such as downed allies heal for small amounts over time ontop of the no bleed out while downed.
• Unholy Martyr: add when you draw a condition from an ally gain health. When you transfer an condition to an enemy steal health.No bad idea cause it will be even weaker. the current version is fine as is converting to life force is fine unless death magic gains a trait that does this this needs to stay as is.
• Spiteful Spirit: add - when removing or corrupting a boon you deal damage and cause AOE blindPointless (its based on a boon system) meaning little to no use in pve and in pvp you are more than likely to get plenty of blinds from corrupting fury as is.
• Rework all minion traits like they do with weapon traits (Give them an additional benefit that is not tied to minions)Not even sure that will help them much.

I feel that in the end, our shroud isn’t the core problem.But our lack of mobility so people can kite us or active evades or block.Especially projectiles can be deadly for us if we are caught in a place without LoS-restrictions.

@"Brujeria.7536" said:Simply add / tweak a few (Grandmaster) traits that can get the job done:

• Unholy Sanctuary - Activate Shroud when taking a lethal blow while above the Lifeforce treshold + Shroud now uses an ammo system. 3 Charges, 3 sec cooldownbetween uses, 12 seconds recharge per charge (Recharge also works during shroud)

How would that ammo system work vs life force amount gathered? (like each charge refilling life force to full, or not affecting that at all?)

• Putrid defense - now also causes poison to foes hitting you while you have protection

Sounds neat. I don't understand why a-net, who made necro literally the only profession without some sort of invulnerability/0 damage taken skill is refusing to give us better access to "hedgehog skills" that would give us windows of hard counter damage to unwise attackers.

• Corruptors Fervor : take reduced damage and condition damage for each condition on the foe that damagaes you: 3% per unique condition.

Bad idea. In competitive modes guardians are a thing (often in packs) and quick mass condi cleanses are abundant. Making your defense rely on enemy not cleansing the condies you applied is a very risky deal.

• Parasitic Contagion: Now heals for a flat amount for each condition applied (150) (per stack), 5% of your condition damage heals you

Too op, given many other good sources of healing we already have and can use in conjunction. What this traits needs is healing through shroud. Currently it can't and it leads to it being completely useless for core and reaper while diamonds for scourge.

• Weakening Shroud: Add - enfeeble now causes slow. Causing weakness also slows your target (ICD per Target)

I like this idea a lot. Getting jumped in spvp as a necro is basically a law of physics by now, and any condi to help you reduce their damage is worth it's weight in gold. Being the absolute master of conditions, it surprises me to no end why he isn't given any acess to slow on core and reaper (especially core, since reaper at least has quickness!).

• Last Rites: Remove the stopped bleeding out part and replace with: When you go down lifeforce erupts from you, healing and reviving nearby allies including yourself

That would reward bad gameplay (getting downed). Sides current last rights is great for ressing people left and right. I don't particularly see any big issue with this trait as is, it's one of the better necro minors if you ask me.

• Unholy Martyr: add when you draw a condition from an ally gain health. When you transfer an condition to an enemy steal health.

I would like a version where drawing conditions off allies on shroud enter gives you lifeforce then consuming them on shroud exit gives you health. Or in reverse, their call.

• Spiteful Spirit: add - when removing or corrupting a boon you deal damage and cause AOE blind

No feelings about this one.

• Rework all minion traits like they do with weapon traits (Give them an additional benefit that is not tied to minions)

Interesting idea.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:@Brujeria.7536 said:@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Akrasia.5469 said:I have 3 ideas to make Shroud more defensive in the way that we need.

1. Give shroud skill charges (like Blood is Power has). Either by trait or by default let us go in and out of shroud in an instant but increase recharge time to 12s.
2. Give 1s of invulnerability upon entering shroud and 1 additional second if LF is full on entering. This would be a good death magic GM trait.
3. Have all damage that brings a necro out of shroud reduced to 0 and invulnerability for 1/2 sec. So no instant death on exit. Another DM GM trait?

Any thought on the original proposals?

Let's see:

1. Hm.....that is a pretty interesting change. Ability to get shroud flash procs faster and jump back into shroud before 10s deathclock (i had to:>) at the expense of being exposed longer if you burn your charges too fast. It would defo require some testing but sounds promising.provided scourge is not part of this change - getting sand shroud x3 in a row would be beyond busted

2. Nah. Pointless. Classes that live off such tricks (mesmers, guardians, soulbeasts, spellbreakers) have whole phletora of such defensese that chained together make them godly. For a necro having one single invulni woudn't change much. He'd just get bursted 2s later. And probs eat nasty nerfs for getting it. I believe better way to handle this is to give necro anti-crit trait like elementalit's stone heart as someone suggested here.

3. Hm... sounds bit too weak and too favorable for not making any real plays. Weak because shroud gets stomped to 0 very often and nowhere does it say that the blow that puts you out of it will be 12k damage deadeye shot. It might as well be a 100 dmg poison tick. In a heat of battle where necro gets focused (like always...) there's really no skill based way to ensure which blow deals away with your shroud and gets stopped by such a trait.And 1/2s invulni is both too good (invulni) and too weak (1/2s) as a reward for basically losing your shroud.

This whole thing got my brain thinking into making following trait:

Spectral Ward:When shrouded, reduce damage taken from each source by 100 +toughness coefficient.Leaving shroud below life force threshold will give you 5s crit immunity. Treshhold - 25% life force.

Provided leaving means you leave it of your own accord and not it being depleted to 0 by enemy attack or life force degeneration.

Combined with shroud being on charges this could lead to some either powerful anti-burst windows (shroud flashing) or prolonged shroud entries for anti-condi defense (the reduction part vs any source, especially if combined with death magic's condi damage reductions).

Or just change functionality of parasitic contagion in pvp to: gain fixed amount of health on corrupting boons. This healing is effected by healing power. Thus we have the support scourge that Anet wished for which corrupts enemies, heals itself, rezzes and barriers up allies.

Lets be honest parasitic conntagion is the defensive gm in curses traitline. But its never used in any level of gamplay in any scenario. It needs change in functionality for pvp.

@Akrasia.5469 said:

I have 3 ideas to make Shroud more defensive in the way that we need.

1. Give shroud skill charges (like Blood is Power has). Either by trait or by default let us go in and out of shroud in an instant but increase recharge time to 12s.I dont know why shroud would need charges unless your going to turn into something similar to warriors zerker mode which imo removes player control and gates out shroud once charges are gone I think the shroud system as far as access an availability are ok. Its other areas that need help

   • life force generation beyond weapon skills
   • life force generation in extended fights where nothing is dying
   • having more active defenses across utility and or weapon skills that are not simply conditions that can be ignored like fear, weakness, chill.

2. Give 1s of invulnerability upon entering shroud and 1 additional second if LF is full on entering. This would be a good death magic GM trait.Wont do much good I think there can be something more creative and active done across a wider range of areas rather than just a flat 1 second invuln ontop of the other shroud entry effects. Certainly not worth a grand master trait in my opinion.

3. Have all damage that brings a necro out of shroud reduced to 0 and invulnerability for 1/2 sec. So no instant death on exit. Another DM GM trait?

I dont understand this at all either once again I dont see how this will help for such a short period of time and we can probably use better tools across a wide range of other areas that solve the defensive problem better. Also why another GM trait the death magic GM traits area actually pretty solid as is some of them just have bad numbers but mechanically they would be decent traits if the numbers were correctly balanced to provide the sustain death magic is suppose to provide.

Any thought on the original proposals?

Those are my thoughts

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Those are my thoughtsThanks for the thoughts. I'm not copying the entire reply because its a lot and scroll up is an option.

1) For the point about charges. I have noticed that there is a major vulnerability when waiting for shroud to cooldown. Charges would give some interesting gameplay options like popping out of shroud for a few seconds to use a skill or 2 and pop right back in. Of course a shroud with no cooldown at all would be OP but this gives options. It could be the difference needed in a close fight. Maybe it could be implemented better but that's the idea.2) I mentioned a 1s of invulnerability and 2s if LF is full. Maybe it's too weak perhaps 1s below 50% 2s above 50% and 3s if LF is 100%. This is the type of an active defense every necro has been asking for. I would think that this was everyone's favorite idea of the 3.3) Was to solve the issue of necro being focused all the way out of shroud to death with some crazy spikes. Maybe 1/2sec is way too low but anything more than 1 sec may be too powerful. It's meant to be a reverse Unholy Sanctuary that saves you when your shroud fails. GM in Death so both can't be taken. Open to improvements.

As for Death Magic because in addition to the points above, it's the sustain trait. Also, I posted another bigger suggestion that Minion Master should be pulled out of Death Magic and necro in general and made into its own Elite Specialization. This wasn't an option when the game came out as ES wasn't invented yet. Now that it is, MM would make a much better ES as it would give the other versions of necro room (as in new skills and traits) to fill in gaps in gameplay like mobility and defense and at the same time flesh out Minion skills and traits with a whole trait line dedicated to them. This may even fix core necro somewhat with new skills and new traits to make something like Death/Spite/Blood viable. See https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/782715 for that thread.

They could lower the CD to 8,5 sec. And add “when hitting the health threshold you gain full Lifeforce and enter shroud, while gakning 1 sec resistance and 3 sec protection and regeneration”.

Also still think a Stone Heart trait could be interesting for shroud.And granting one of our wells projectile reflection.

And finally some weapon changes:

Changing the attack chain for Greatsword to:1/2, 3/4, 3/4. To add chill a bit faster.1/4 Grasping Darkness, with 15% faster animation and 1050 range.1/2 Nightfall range of 900 (now a target area effect), using this ability again will shadowstep you to the area and burst the cloud, ending the effect of the effect and weaken the area. Effect now last for 4 sec. But deals no damage.

Focus:

Reapers Touch:Double click to shadow step to the scythe blinding foes for 3 sec. And give resistance to allies for 1 sec.Can be casted without targets and will fly in a straigth line and hover for 1.5 sec when reaching max distance.

This will do following:Grant us access to our shroud faster along with all the perks, but of course we have to choose between stunbreak on demand (8,5sec) or Stone heart.It will make our “passive” rescue trait worth a while.

It will give us a few more options for ranged mobs and unload/deadeye thief (rangers is not a problem since we can dodge, the problem with thieves is that the initiative system is too forgiving).

Still make reapers hit hard, but give them mobility for catching enemies, the opponents will still ne able to dodge, leap and teleport, but is not forced to use more of these abilities to escape, and we can now apply chill faster.

Focus now got a teleport on demand for core necros to use, will it make us uber mobile with worm and be able to compete with other professions? Unlikely, but it will give all players, skilled and unskilles, more stuff to play around with.

Edit: apart of me feels like this might be too OP, and in the end it is more a question of skills and know when to engage and which tools to bring. I never been very mechanical or tactical great in gw2.

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:Edit: apart of me feels like this might be too OP, and in the end it is more a question of skills and know when to engage and which tools to bring. I never been very mechanical or tactical great in gw2.

Yeah if you're talking about all of it then it's kinda OP. I see lots of buffs but nothing is nerfed and most time balance means losing something.

@Akrasia.5469 said:

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:Edit: apart of me feels like this might be too OP, and in the end it is more a question of skills and know when to engage and which tools to bring. I never been very mechanical or tactical great in gw2.

Only losing if you got too much.Balance, means it is balanced, so unless you get too much by buffing, yeah then something needs to go down.I hmm compared to mesmer and holomancer it might be ok..But really we do not want new powercreeps.

In the end I manage without it. QoL could be projectile hate, shadow step and faster chill.I get some of this from my Guardian or Thief :)

@Akrasia.5469 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Those are my thoughtsThanks for the thoughts. I'm not copying the entire reply because its a lot and scroll up is an option.

Charges on shroud would be very dangerous to balance because traits like spiteful spirit, enfeeble, foot in the grave and unholy martyr are balanced with a single 10+ second CD on shroud. A trait that adds a second charge would also be hard to balance with 10 second CD on DS and RS and 30 second CD on Desert shroud. Furthermore, unholy sanctuary is effectively a second charge on shroud but it has a 30 second ICD. So a ~30 second ICD is what Anet finds acceptable for a "2nd charge" on shroud.

If you really want the idea of a second charge, I would suggest a rework to Unholy sanctuary:When you use a heal skill, gain 10% life force and reduce shroud recharge by 10-15 seconds: DS and RS instantly refresh while sand shroud is reduced CD (example: from 30 to 20-15 seconds). 20 second ICD. (This is to prevent double tapping blood fiend for 3 charges to shroud). Regen while in shroud as the trait currently does.

It no longer passively saves you so I think the 20 second instead of 30 second ICD is justified. Anet is also removing a lot of these passive defenses from traits so I think this is a reasonable suggestion that could be implemented. This can still allow you to spam DS or RS twice but it has a tell and can be countered: you cast your heal first. It's future/current elite spec proof because it's not a 100% recharge of shroud/2nd charge on any elite shroud. You are meant to be vulnerable after leaving shroud but it thematically seems appropriate that a GM trait modifies your heal skill to give you a second wind to get back into shroud.

@"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:Charges on shroud would be very dangerous to balance because traits like spiteful spirit, enfeeble, foot in the grave and unholy martyr are balanced with a single 10+ second CD on shroud. A trait that adds a second charge would also be hard to balance with 10 second CD on DS and RS and 30 second CD on Desert shroud. Furthermore, unholy sanctuary is effectively a second charge on shroud but it has a 30 second ICD. So a ~30 second ICD is what Anet finds acceptable for a "2nd charge" on shroud.

If you really want the idea of a second charge, I would suggest a rework to Unholy sanctuary:When you use a heal skill, gain 10% life force and reduce shroud recharge by 10-15 seconds: DS and RS instantly refresh while sand shroud is reduced CD (example: from 30 to 20-15 seconds). 20 second ICD. (This is to prevent double tapping blood fiend for 3 charges to shroud). Regen while in shroud as the trait currently does.

It no longer passively saves you so I think the 20 second instead of 30 second ICD is justified. Anet is also removing a lot of these passive defenses from traits so I think this is a reasonable suggestion that could be implemented. This can still allow you to spam DS or RS twice but it has a tell and can be countered: you cast your heal first. It's future/current elite spec proof because it's not a 100% recharge of shroud/2nd charge on any elite shroud. You are meant to be vulnerable after leaving shroud but it thematically seems appropriate that a GM trait modifies your heal skill to give you a second wind to get back into shroud.

I like your idea. This is much better than a straight charge.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Akrasia.5469 said:It was thinking of an idea for this and maybe as an idea for a new ES. Maybe a mechanic where there is a shroud but instead of a new weapon set the shroud replaces the utility skills and leaves the equipped weapons as is. The skills in shroud would be more utility adding mobility and defensive skills.

I was thinking about it and it wouldn't be such a problem depending on how they did it and how the skills are designed. Things like Dhuumfire, Unyielding Blast and Transfusion could be tied to the new shroud utility traits 6-10. For example, imagine skill 6 is a skill called Absorb Life which is like a pulsing radius life siphon does 200 dmg and heals 200 and applies weakness to each foe hit up to 5 targets 3 pulses. Dhuumfire would set each target hit on fire for each pulse and Unyielding Blast would apply vuln as normal.