Thoughts - Post Season 14 - From Different Class Perspectives — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thoughts - Post Season 14 - From Different Class Perspectives

Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 8, 2019 in PVP

Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

I'm going to give my subjective points of view from the perspective of a Ranger main. During S14, I mained DPS Soulbeast and Bunker Druid interchangeably depending on which was more advantageous to play during the given match. I chose to play Bunker Druid over Boonbeast because although Boonbeast is a better 1v1 than a Bunker Druid in terms of slightly more DPS for kill power, the Bunker Druid is still a better 1v2 node stale, and better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal team mates. All in all, current Boonbeast and the better Bunker Druid setups are almost identical in the use of axe/axe and specializations selected, outside of the difference in their elites.

Spellbreaker: Damage is maaaaaybe a bit too high after buffs to Forceful Greatsword, and I feel it is beginning to lack sustain. Not in a bad place but could be better.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - Either kill or get killed immediately.
  • As Bunker Druid - Stalemate in most cases. Though the new sword/shield Spellbreaker variants or just very high DPS variants in general, can be capable of killing a Bunker Druid if CCs are landed at the correct time. Likewise, they are squishy enough that the Bunker Druid can kill them if the stars do not align and they are unable to land CCs at the right time.

Herald: It's in a good place from what I've seen, but it requires just the right team comp to play be able to play correctly.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - Heralds counter DPS Soulbeasts so long as the Soulebeast doesn't sucker punch them before they are ready to engage.
  • As Bunker Druid - Axe 5 retaliation alone counters Heralds. Then the Druid has too much sustain for the Herald to kill and the Herald's heal skill is useless when the Druid wins with attrition damage instead of burst damage. Druids counter Heralds.

Core Guard: Clearly the dominant Core Class, viable amongst meta, not actually meta.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - Pretty equal match up actually.
  • As Bunker Druid - Bunker Druid counters Core Guard in the same way Boonbeast counters Core Guard. Mainly due to Axe 5 retal, and high defensive values that the Core Guard ultimately cannot keep up with.

Firebrand: Eeeeeeeh I've seen good ones and I've seen bad ones. Seems like only the GOOD FBs kept playing after tome CD increase. Not so easy to spam FB anymore.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - DPS Soulbeast counters FB hard. This is a primary reason to log out/back in as a DPS Soulbeast for certain matches.
  • As Bunker Druid - Saying "It's balanced" doesn't even begin to adequately describe the tears that happen when a FB and a Bunker Druid meet on a neutral node 1v1 and get locked into a combat that goes no where while both players are waiting for a + to show up.

Boonbeast: It's a better 1v1 than a Druid as it can deal damage to actually kill an opponent or run it off a node in the long run, but it is still not as good of a 1v2er as a Druid because it lacks the extreme defensive measures that Druid provides, and a Druid is still better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal its team mates. Not sure if I'd say Boonbeast is still OP or not, hard to tell from the perspective of a Bunker Druid.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - The Boonbeast counters DPS Soulbeast for many reasons.
  • As Bunker Druid - Stalemate, if both players are good, neither player can kill the other without a bit of luck or a +, but it isn't as boring of a fight as against the FB. Both players actually have to pay attention or they could die if they get lazy & sloppy.

Holosmith: Lots of variant builds going around lately. I don't think it's necessarily OP, but some of it's attacks still need to be addressed in terms of how much random ultra range they have. <- That's for certain.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - They're an easy kill after the change of SRD into EE, if you can get the jump and lead in damage on them. Not so easy of a kill if they are ready to engage that first burst. I'd say it's a solid balanced match up if the DPS Soulbeast can play well.
  • As Bunker Druid - 9/10 Holos are easily countered by Bunker Druid, again for those Axe 5 retal reasons. If the Holo is good and avoids retail, he will eventually run the Bunker Druid off a node in the long run, and possibly have a chance of killing it if the Bunker Druid messes up his kiting.

All Forms Of Thieves: Maybe I have bias because I run Ranger specs which are known for countering Thieves, but I feel Thieves are underperforming at this point as compared to previous seasons & metas, specifically in the sustain department. In this power crept high DPS meta, they get hit hard by EVERYTHING, including random 1 autos from something like a Bunker Druid. I would like to point out that players should give good Thief players props, because in this current DPS meta, they are playing GW2 on hard mode.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - It just counters and destroys Thief specs unless the Thief gets an enormously powerful lead in attack.
  • As Bunker Druid - Absolutely no chance of a Thief spec killing this 1v1 unless the Druid lags or his mouse starts bugging out, or the Druid is drunk or way too tired to be playing. The only exception to this is a top notch Deadeye. Sometimes a good DE can get you if they stealth in and play sneaky, stay patient, and catch you off guard.

All forms of Necromancers: I feel like Reaper is in a great place, but Scourge is a bit lack luster at this point. Scourge had many of it's boon corrupts removed to nerf it in the past, but since then so many buffs have happened to increase the frequency of boon application on other classes and their durations, that Scourge may need some of its boon corrupts reimplemented to maintain its class function and purpose.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - The most severe counter possible vs Necromancers.
  • As Bunker Druid - Lately I can 1v1 Reapers or Scourges on nodes, due to the virtue of weakness spam, and deal enough damage over time to actually kill them. I don't think I would say Bunker Druid is a hard counter so to say, but they win the end.

Mirages & Chronos: I'll let the persistent Mesmer complaint threads handle most of this, but I will say that although Mirages & Chronos may not necessarily be OP, they are the most obnoxious and not fun class to play against. Every other class feels fun to engage, with straight forward intuitive dynamics. Even Deadeyes "which are commonly complained about due to their high stealth uptime", are at least straight forward to deal with when they reveal granting an opening, or stealth and you have to LOS attempting to lure them into a bad situation. Engaging Mesmer based classes on the other hand as of 2019, it feels like you're standing in a big confetti storm, can't see anything, and there are 10 people who look the same, running around you in circles while firing taser guns at your face. This ultra silly gimmicky play gets old and just feels cheap after awhile. Maybe Arenanet should consider lowering the total amount of clone spam frequency, but slightly increasing the power of those clones to compensate. This would lower the pixel spam and in general reduce the amount of unintended advantages that clone spam grants.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - You can kill power based Mesmer builds, but just run from condi based.
  • As Bunker Druid - You can 1v1 most Mesmer based builds and eventually kill them, but the better players while on Condi based specs, can eventually decap you or possibly kill you, if you mess up at all. Druid is on the other hand very strong vs power Mesmer based builds.

Weavers: They are in a much better place now and at least viable, still not a meta.

  • As DPS Soulbeast - You explode all ele builds due to lowest health pool.
  • As Bunker Druid - You can kill DPS based Eles pretty quickly, but good Eles that are sustainy turns into a 1v1 stalemate.

A few other suggestions/concerns/comments:

  1. Match manipulation & 3rd party program use seemed lower this season. At least I wasn't effected by it as much. Felt like less shenanigans.
  2. There are way too many people using alts to block top 25 leaderboard positions. I am sure they probably own these accounts and that technically there probably isn't anything going on that breaks the TOS, but is there really nothing that can be done about this?
  3. Boosters - Would it be possible to implement special boosters that effect spvp directly and nothing else? Maybe boosters that say "+25% gain to reward track progress and maybe even pip progression", and they would work for a certain amount of matches instead of a timer count down. The timer count down for spvp is just a bad design considering wait times between ranked and ATs, also when a player wants to leave the mists to do something else. The normal booster timers just get wasted in spvp and are better used in pve farming for wvw, where gains made are actually worth the use of the booster.
  4. Please re-add the 2v2 ATs, that was a lot of fun. Just fix the arenas so the gates close after the match starts, and it spits each team into the actual arena, so they can't camp the spawn.
  5. Remove some of the obstructive visual clutter around the side nodes in the Djinn map. That map's objective also needs a lot of buffing.
  6. You guys gotta seriously considering omitting f2p accounts from playing in ranked mode at all. There are several reasons for this that I don't have the time to go into.
  7. Oh and, pvp guild missions need some kind of a serious overhaul. I'd love to see there be a reason to run teams through a guild again. That'd be great.

~ Welp, that's about it. Ty for your time.

The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
-> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

<1

Comments

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    All Forms Of Thieves: Maybe I have bias because I run Ranger specs which are known for countering Thieves, but I feel Thieves are underperforming at this point as compared to previous seasons & metas, specifically in the sustain department. In this power crept high DPS meta, they get hit hard by EVERYTHING, including random 1 autos from something like a Bunker Druid. I would like to point out that players should give good Thief players props, because in this current DPS meta, they are playing GW2 on hard mode.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - It just counters and destroys Thief specs unless the Thief gets an enormously powerful lead in attack.
    • As Bunker Druid - Absolutely no chance of a Thief spec killing this 1v1 unless the Druid lags or his mouse starts bugging out, or the Druid is drunk or way too tired to be playing. The only exception to this is a top notch Deadeye. Sometimes a good DE can get you if they stealth in and play sneaky, stay patient, and catch you off guard.

    I love you.

    Regarding the rest;
    I think I disagree with the Boonbeast vs Bunker Druid, assuming the fight is on Node then due to Celestial Shadow on Druid the Boonbeast will more than likely win the Node sooner or later, making it essentialy a win for Boonbeast and waste for Druid.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    I'm going to give my subjective points of view from the perspective of a Ranger main. During S14, I mained DPS Soulbeast and Bunker Druid interchangeably depending on which was more advantageous to play during the given match. I chose to play Bunker Druid over Boonbeast because although Boonbeast is a better 1v1 than a Bunker Druid in terms of slightly more DPS for kill power, the Bunker Druid is still a better 1v2 node stale, and better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal team mates. All in all, current Boonbeast and the better Bunker Druid setups are almost identical in the use of axe/axe and specializations selected, outside of the difference in their elites.

    Spellbreaker: Damage is maaaaaybe a bit too high after buffs to Forceful Greatsword, and I feel it is beginning to lack sustain. Not in a bad place but could be better.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - Either kill or get killed immediately.
    • As Bunker Druid - Stalemate in most cases. Though the new sword/shield Spellbreaker variants or just very high DPS variants in general, can be capable of killing a Bunker Druid if CCs are landed at the correct time. Likewise, they are squishy enough that the Bunker Druid can kill them if the stars do not align and they are unable to land CCs at the right time.

    Herald: It's in a good place from what I've seen, but it requires just the right team comp to play be able to play correctly.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - Heralds counter DPS Soulbeasts so long as the Soulebeast doesn't sucker punch them before they are ready to engage.
    • As Bunker Druid - Axe 5 retaliation alone counters Heralds. Then the Druid has too much sustain for the Herald to kill and the Herald's heal skill is useless when the Druid wins with attrition damage instead of burst damage. Druids counter Heralds.

    Core Guard: Clearly the dominant Core Class, viable amongst meta, not actually meta.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - Pretty equal match up actually.
    • As Bunker Druid - Bunker Druid counters Core Guard in the same way Boonbeast counters Core Guard. Mainly due to Axe 5 retal, and high defensive values that the Core Guard ultimately cannot keep up with.

    Firebrand: Eeeeeeeh I've seen good ones and I've seen bad ones. Seems like only the GOOD FBs kept playing after tome CD increase. Not so easy to spam FB anymore.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - DPS Soulbeast counters FB hard. This is a primary reason to log out/back in as a DPS Soulbeast for certain matches.
    • As Bunker Druid - Saying "It's balanced" doesn't even begin to adequately describe the tears that happen when a FB and a Bunker Druid meet on a neutral node 1v1 and get locked into a combat that goes no where while both players are waiting for a + to show up.

    Boonbeast: It's a better 1v1 than a Druid as it can deal damage to actually kill an opponent or run it off a node in the long run, but it is still not as good of a 1v2er as a Druid because it lacks the extreme defensive measures that Druid provides, and a Druid is still better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal its team mates. Not sure if I'd say Boonbeast is still OP or not, hard to tell from the perspective of a Bunker Druid.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - The Boonbeast counters DPS Soulbeast for many reasons.
    • As Bunker Druid - Stalemate, if both players are good, neither player can kill the other without a bit of luck or a +, but it isn't as boring of a fight as against the FB. Both players actually have to pay attention or they could die if they get lazy & sloppy.

    Holosmith: Lots of variant builds going around lately. I don't think it's necessarily OP, but some of it's attacks still need to be addressed in terms of how much random ultra range they have. <- That's for certain.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - They're an easy kill after the change of SRD into EE, if you can get the jump and lead in damage on them. Not so easy of a kill if they are ready to engage that first burst. I'd say it's a solid balanced match up if the DPS Soulbeast can play well.
    • As Bunker Druid - 9/10 Holos are easily countered by Bunker Druid, again for those Axe 5 retal reasons. If the Holo is good and avoids retail, he will eventually run the Bunker Druid off a node in the long run, and possibly have a chance of killing it if the Bunker Druid messes up his kiting.

    All Forms Of Thieves: Maybe I have bias because I run Ranger specs which are known for countering Thieves, but I feel Thieves are underperforming at this point as compared to previous seasons & metas, specifically in the sustain department. In this power crept high DPS meta, they get hit hard by EVERYTHING, including random 1 autos from something like a Bunker Druid. I would like to point out that players should give good Thief players props, because in this current DPS meta, they are playing GW2 on hard mode.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - It just counters and destroys Thief specs unless the Thief gets an enormously powerful lead in attack.
    • As Bunker Druid - Absolutely no chance of a Thief spec killing this 1v1 unless the Druid lags or his mouse starts bugging out, or the Druid is drunk or way too tired to be playing. The only exception to this is a top notch Deadeye. Sometimes a good DE can get you if they stealth in and play sneaky, stay patient, and catch you off guard.

    All forms of Necromancers: I feel like Reaper is in a great place, but Scourge is a bit lack luster at this point. Scourge had many of it's boon corrupts removed to nerf it in the past, but since then so many buffs have happened to increase the frequency of boon application on other classes and their durations, that Scourge may need some of its boon corrupts reimplemented to maintain its class function and purpose.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - The most severe counter possible vs Necromancers.
    • As Bunker Druid - Lately I can 1v1 Reapers or Scourges on nodes, due to the virtue of weakness spam, and deal enough damage over time to actually kill them. I don't think I would say Bunker Druid is a hard counter so to say, but they win the end.

    Mirages & Chronos: I'll let the persistent Mesmer complaint threads handle most of this, but I will say that although Mirages & Chronos may not necessarily be OP, they are the most obnoxious and not fun class to play against. Every other class feels fun to engage, with straight forward intuitive dynamics. Even Deadeyes "which are commonly complained about due to their high stealth uptime", are at least straight forward to deal with when they reveal granting an opening, or stealth and you have to LOS attempting to lure them into a bad situation. Engaging Mesmer based classes on the other hand as of 2019, it feels like you're standing in a big confetti storm, can't see anything, and there are 10 people who look the same, running around you in circles while firing taser guns at your face. This ultra silly gimmicky play gets old and just feels cheap after awhile. Maybe Arenanet should consider lowering the total amount of clone spam frequency, but slightly increasing the power of those clones to compensate. This would lower the pixel spam and in general reduce the amount of unintended advantages that clone spam grants.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - You can kill power based Mesmer builds, but just run from condi based.
    • As Bunker Druid - You can 1v1 most Mesmer based builds and eventually kill them, but the better players while on Condi based specs, can eventually decap you or possibly kill you, if you mess up at all. Druid is on the other hand very strong vs power Mesmer based builds.

    Weavers: They are in a much better place now and at least viable, still not a meta.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - You explode all ele builds due to lowest health pool.
    • As Bunker Druid - You can kill DPS based Eles pretty quickly, but good Eles that are sustainy turns into a 1v1 stalemate.

    A few other suggestions/concerns/comments:

    1. Match manipulation & 3rd party program use seemed lower this season. At least I wasn't effected by it as much. Felt like less shenanigans.
    2. There are way too many people using alts to block top 25 leaderboard positions. I am sure they probably own these accounts and that technically there probably isn't anything going on that breaks the TOS, but is there really nothing that can be done about this?
    3. Boosters - Would it be possible to implement special boosters that effect spvp directly and nothing else? Maybe boosters that say "+25% gain to reward track progress and maybe even pip progression", and they would work for a certain amount of matches instead of a timer count down. The timer count down for spvp is just a bad design considering wait times between ranked and ATs, also when a player wants to leave the mists to do something else. The normal booster timers just get wasted in spvp and are better used in pve farming for wvw, where gains made are actually worth the use of the booster.
    4. Please re-add the 2v2 ATs, that was a lot of fun. Just fix the arenas so the gates close after the match starts, and it spits each team into the actual arena, so they can't camp the spawn.
    5. Remove some of the obstructive visual clutter around the side nodes in the Djinn map. That map's objective also needs a lot of buffing.
    6. You guys gotta seriously considering omitting f2p accounts from playing in ranked mode at all. There are several reasons for this that I don't have the time to go into.
    7. Oh and, pvp guild missions need some kind of a serious overhaul. I'd love to see there be a reason to run teams through a guild again. That'd be great.

    ~ Welp, that's about it. Ty for your time.

    Look at you, changing your opinion on Warrior damage to "maaaaaybe" being too much with the Forceful Greatsword change. I'll take a maybe, means you're weighing it more compared to other classes and their damage. I don't think any Warrior would necessarily argue against you about sustain since they've really only hit it with nerfs (Adrenal Health got hit twice with 10% reduction in healing in sPvP and Healing Signet also has had its passive healing reduced over time in PvP) at this point a buff to it would probably make people complain more about fighting the class but if they nerf it...thats it for Warrior.

  • Crystal Paladin.3871Crystal Paladin.3871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @shinta.8906 said:
    but discussing anything balance related from a ranger perspective is like talking from an ivory tower.

    You should follow up on @Trevor Boyer.6524 past posts... He's not one sided... He even asked for soulbeast nerfs before... When WI had a massive ohko potential with stacking MOC...

    Ranger community is the only place we ask to Nerf ourselves (among many others) to make the game fun to play with for other builds and professions and feel a lil more balanced

  • shinta.8906shinta.8906 Member ✭✭✭

    understood

  • Arioch.4810Arioch.4810 Member ✭✭✭

    Good read so far - thank you for the effort Trevor & Megametzler

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    You know with 0 lead attacks, using a berserker spec Cs / Tr / Da spec, your autos will hit for 300 - 400 damage (non crit) vs warrior*
    You will be hit for 1500-2000 (non crit.) vs warrior*

    That means you only need to hit 53 times before they hit you 5 times (non crit using auto's only)
    (16,000 life divided by 300 = 53) (11,000 life divided by 2000 = 5)

    Obviously this scenario would never happen, (since it requires both non crits and 0 LA stacks) but it does show how biased there "balance team" is.

    **: auto attacks in Spvp ffa arena is where these numbers came from. while warrior is the example. most other professions could be sub into there place

  • Liza.2758Liza.2758 Member ✭✭

    u should put your server / and rating before u write all this.

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    This has been the best season for me so far.

  • Badcat.7320Badcat.7320 Member ✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    @Liza.2758 said:
    u should put your server / and rating before u write all this.

    pretty sure trev plays solid platinum 2 not sure about mega

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    @Liza.2758 I'm currently 1650 NA and I plan on ending the season that way. It should be enough to seal the deal for top 100 unless rating expectations rise dramatically by tomorrow's reset & season finish.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Liza.2758 said:
    u should put your server / and rating before u write all this.

    EU, usually Plat3, this season I was abroad and didn't have time and proper connection, so around 1650 and too few games (~70).

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Liza.2758 I'm currently 1650 NA and I plan on ending the season that way. It should be enough to seal the deal for top 100 unless rating expectations rise dramatically by tomorrow's reset & season finish.

    Lol im at the exact same rating in NA. Crossing my fingers that it locks in the top 100 title. I think we should be safe :+1:

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Liza.2758 I'm currently 1650 NA and I plan on ending the season that way. It should be enough to seal the deal for top 100 unless rating expectations rise dramatically by tomorrow's reset & season finish.

    Lol im at the exact same rating in NA. Crossing my fingers that it locks in the top 100 title. I think we should be safe :+1:

    Sidebar, didn't you formally play Ele, and now you've gone to the dark condi side?

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mbelch.9028 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Liza.2758 I'm currently 1650 NA and I plan on ending the season that way. It should be enough to seal the deal for top 100 unless rating expectations rise dramatically by tomorrow's reset & season finish.

    Lol im at the exact same rating in NA. Crossing my fingers that it locks in the top 100 title. I think we should be safe :+1:

    Sidebar, didn't you formally play Ele, and now you've gone to the dark condi side?

    I've always played power mesmer until this season where anet basically forced me to play a hybrid condi mesmer.

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭

    Some of these have been really good! Nice contribution @Ario.8964. @Trevor Boyer.6524 perhaps you change the title and make this a more general thread?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @Mbelch.9028 said:
    Some of these have been really good! Nice contribution @Ario.8964. @Trevor Boyer.6524 perhaps you change the title and make this a more general thread?

    Fixed. Probably should have just done that to begin with ^^

    @Sampson.2403 Looks like 1650 was indeed just barely enough to maintain top 100 this season.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Mbelch.9028 said:
    Some of these have been really good! Nice contribution @Ario.8964. @Trevor Boyer.6524 perhaps you change the title and make this a more general thread?

    Fixed. Probably should have just done that to begin with ^^

    @Sampson.2403 Looks like 1650 was indeed just barely enough to maintain top 100 this season.

    I almost stopped at 1647. Glad i played a few more games lol.

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Mbelch.9028 said:
    Some of these have been really good! Nice contribution @Ario.8964. @Trevor Boyer.6524 perhaps you change the title and make this a more general thread?

    Fixed. Probably should have just done that to begin with ^^

    @Sampson.2403 Looks like 1650 was indeed just barely enough to maintain top 100 this season.

    I almost stopped at 1647. Glad i played a few more games lol.

    I looked after the season ended and you both escaped handsomely from falling below top 100 lol. Nicely done. I wish I had the time to devote to playing enough games to bust past the barrier, but I just don't any longer. I still play, I just can't play in 10 game bursts several times a week any longer.

  • bbop.9706bbop.9706 Member ✭✭
    edited January 28, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

    And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

    Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks Trevor. I hope a dev reads this and passes on some of the insight here. It's clear you care about the game, know how to play it well and have thus provided some decent feedback that is about as unbiased as it can be. Based on your experiences, it's hard to point a definite finger at what is and isn't overpowered, but it's clear that mirage and boon beast are at the top of the totem pole in general and I hope they focus their evaluations on those two builds/specs.

    I'd also like to point out some of the specializations/builds that are straight up absent from your assessment here, presumably due to so few players using them. Dragonhunter, Scrapper and core Warrior (the dodge spamming one with Might Makes Right) in particular are ones I'm a bit surprised you didn't mention. I know none of these are even close to meta, and this game is more Build Wars 2 than it is skill, but a very good one could definitely sit in plat 1-plat 2 as I did with DH 2 seasons ago.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 28, 2019

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

    And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

    Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

    This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

    And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

    Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

    This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

    T_T, thats pro!

    But in all seriousness, I dont think there are lots of classes that can deal with that level of ranged pressure, 3-5k regular attacks depending on amulet/class is no joking matter. I can see it struggling a bit in team fights but if you press T, have the unblockable from pet merging, sick'em( or even without it) and press LB2, no matter who you are, you are probably going down, and if you equip wolf pack instead, then hope you can respawn quickly cuz thats where you are probably headed.

    I still think that ranged damage should not be so high, specially when rangers do have a few tools to disengage. Well, I guess if AT are any indication, soulbeasts will be around for quite a while more.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    • Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does

    ? O.o

    Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • bbop.9706bbop.9706 Member ✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    • Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does

    ? O.o

    Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

    its a SB trait, unstoppable union

  • bbop.9706bbop.9706 Member ✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

    And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

    Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

    This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

    Thanks man.

    Its almost exactly like my sniper build but less survivability. I also only switched to it to counter Necro and Guardian comps, and never on maps with poor LOS like skyhammer or khylo.. absolute nightmare for LB on those maps imo.

  • @bbop.9706 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    • Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does

    ? O.o

    Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

    its a SB trait, unstoppable union

    Fortus wrote about S/D Thief tho. S#3 doesn‘t interrupt.

  • bbop.9706bbop.9706 Member ✭✭

    @Derenaya.3479 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    • Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does

    ? O.o

    Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

    its a SB trait, unstoppable union

    Fortus wrote about S/D Thief tho. S#3 doesn‘t interrupt.

    ah sorry misread

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    • Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does

    ? O.o

    Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

    fixed it, thanks

  • bbop.9706bbop.9706 Member ✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

    And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

    Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

    This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

    Sorry to harp on about the build, where's the value of Beastly Warden if you camp in beast mode most of the time? wouldn't Zephyrs speed be a better pick to help disengage?

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

    And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

    Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

    This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

    Sorry to harp on about the build, where's the value of Beastly Warden if you camp in beast mode most of the time? wouldn't Zephyrs speed be a better pick to help disengage?

    Not Trevor, but Beastly Warden triggers from the merged beast skills (Worldly Impact, Spiritual Reprieve, etc.) so it definitely has its uses for things like following up with burst.

  • bbop.9706bbop.9706 Member ✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

    And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

    Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

    This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

    Sorry to harp on about the build, where's the value of Beastly Warden if you camp in beast mode most of the time? wouldn't Zephyrs speed be a better pick to help disengage?

    Not Trevor, but Beastly Warden triggers from the merged beast skills (Worldly Impact, Spiritual Reprieve, etc.) so it definitely has its uses for things like following up with burst.

    Actually, it only triggers off 1 of the merged abilities not all 3. Also, why would you want to be taunting a foe to attack you in melee range? You would take damage even if it was involuntary? Idk, just feels wrong to me with this build.. Forgive my ignorance, not sure i understand taunt in this game.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

    And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

    Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

    This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

    Sorry to harp on about the build, where's the value of Beastly Warden if you camp in beast mode most of the time? wouldn't Zephyrs speed be a better pick to help disengage?

    Not Trevor, but Beastly Warden triggers from the merged beast skills (Worldly Impact, Spiritual Reprieve, etc.) so it definitely has its uses for things like following up with burst.

    Actually, it only triggers off 1 of the merged abilities not all 3. Also, why would you want to be taunting a foe to attack you in melee range? You would take damage even if it was involuntary? Idk, just feels wrong to me with this build.. Forgive my ignorance, not sure i understand taunt in this game.

    Well yes, just the archetype skills, so Worldly Impact, Spiritual Reprieve, Primal Cry, Unflinching Fortitude, Worldly Impact, and Prelude Lash...as long as you are within 240 units of them. Taunting technically forces them to attack you, but it is only autoattacking. If you are taunted with a melee weapon, you will run towards your target, and if you are taunted with a ranged weapon, you will stay in place as long as your weapon is in range of them. It helps set up burst. With a skill like WI, there's a good chance that you'll have your melee weapon equipped, so following up with your GS skills can be fatal for them.
    Personally, I always run Zephyr's Speed, but I can see the appeal of Beastly Warden.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @bbop.9706 Answer two of your questions here:

    1. Might stacks - Strength of the Pack with Moa Stance has that covered, along with an elongated stability stack.
    2. About Beastly Warden - After hundreds of hours of test playing various high dps soulbeast builds, I can confirm that Beastly Warden is mandatory for high functioning builds. Firstly I want to say that on high dps soulbeast builds, you won't be pet swapping much if at all. On higher dps builds, leaving merge mode is a loss in dps and mobility, and there are no traits in these builds that grant you any perk for swapping pets or going into merge mode for boon amplification like on Boonbeasts. You want to avoid it completely unless you are against an opponent that requires extra CC to be able to kill. One good example is vs. Power Heralds, which is the hardest counter to dps soulbeasts. The only way to damage him enough quickly enough, to bait his heal vs. damage taken, and then damage him again quickly enough to kill him before he can kill you, is to exit merge and use a pet with dual CCs to stop him up. This is the only way to win vs. Power Herald, you cannot run from it and if you don't CC him down, he will deal a lot more damage to you than you can deal to him, due to sword 3 evading. These are the kinds of reasons why Beastly Warden is mandatory to take. Secondly, there are three main reasons why Beastly Warden is mandatory: The first is that when you go to land Maul to proc the damage enhancement, you then want to use that damage bonus while following up with Worldly Impact. The problem here is that better players after getting hit with Maul, will attempt to gtfo and away from your burst, via dodge rolling or movement skilling away, w/e it is they are doing to leave the AoE of nuclear damage. When you have Beastly Warden, the taunt works right as you active Worldy Impact, so if they don't have stability on, it makes them walk AT YOU instead of being able to react and leave. This helps secure the 2 shot combo. The second reason is that when you go in melee like this, it is a risk and you don't want to stay melee long, only long enough to land Maul > WI > Hilt Bah > Maul and leave, reset, and reposition while melee side is coming off CDs. Now let's say you're against a Warrior. If you don't have Beastly Warden, when you go to land Maul/WI 2-Shot, you have a large risk that the Warrior will use a burst skill like FC or Eviscerate, or he'll use GS 3 and completely avoid your damage while dealing a lot of damage to you. But if you do have Beastly Warden and make sure to go in for your burst when he doesn't have stability, when you go to land Maul/WI/Hilt Bash/Maul "with quickness on mind you", by the time he can react to the first Maul, he's already getting taunted. Now his character will attempt to 1 spam you while the Taunt is active, rather than allowing the player to use a Warrior burst skill or something like GS 3. By the time the Taunt ends, you'll be hitting him with Hilt Bash and leaning into the 2nd Maul. This is like 3s of CC and plenty of time to finish a 4 hit 40-60k combo with quickness on. Just try to bait that passive Endure Pain first as you come in with LB. The third reason is all about the other big boon that this build brings into matches, which is all about saving and winning team fights. So here is an example to explain this:You cap home at the start of the match and head to mid to see your team in a 4v4. You prime your burst with every utility used and down someone at mid. Now you can LB 3 stealth and use an Eagle swoop or a Rock Gazelle Dash to get into the middle of the team fight quickly while stealthed. Now that you are in the middle of the team fight, you can land that big AoE 4 hit combo 40-60k damage Maul>WI>Hilt Bash>Maul right on top of the body of the downed player, and to anyone who is standing there trying to revive him. Without Beastly Warden, You have no CCs to prevent people from bailing the nuke or for interrupting people who are reviving. But with Beastly Warden, it interrupts them during the revive if they have no stability, and makes them stand there like derps and eat the combo. In the end, what makes this build and builds like it very dangerous in melee range, is Beastly Warden. Without it, you won't be effective vs. better player beyond long range Rapid Fire sniping.

    But yeah, that about sums up "Why Beastly Warden". I need to make a new video. That old video was made like the first day I discovered that build. That are a lot of mistakes made in the play there. Now when I run that build, you'd see all of the things demonstrated that I just explained in the above. You know what, maybe I'll do that tonight. I have a lot of people ask me about this build anyway.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • bbop.9706bbop.9706 Member ✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    But yeah, that about sums up "Why Beastly Warden". I need to make a new video. That old video was made like the first day I discovered that build. That are a lot of mistakes made in the play there. Now when I run that build, you'd see all of the things demonstrated that I just explained in the above. You know what, maybe I'll do that tonight. I have a lot of people ask me about this build anyway.

    Amazing. Thanks Trev, and looking forward to the new video! ;-)

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    You know what, I just notice today that Taunt now comes on the strike with WI, instead of initially. It's still good though with quickness. The taunt still does its job and if you were to run a marks build like the Harsh Master, the taunt will still activate moment of clarity before the strike hits on WI. It's just slightly delayed now.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • You clearly don't play druid at high elo cuz .....vs a tether breaker a druid is useless ....trust me i played druid for last 6 seasons.

  • @Ario.8964 said:

    Mes:
    As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 2 of your 5 sword skills split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.

    It's all gucci and I'm not complaining but why no one seems to realize that sword 4 splits its damage as well?

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miles Smiles.8951 said:

    @Ario.8964 said:

    Mes:
    As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 2 of your 5 sword skills split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.

    It's all gucci and I'm not complaining but why no one seems to realize that sword 4 splits its damage as well?

    And impossible odds, and enchanted daggers, and shiro facet of nature. Pet classes are such a pain.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.

    I'm going to give my subjective points of view from the perspective of a Ranger main. During S14, I mained DPS Soulbeast and Bunker Druid interchangeably depending on which was more advantageous to play during the given match. I chose to play Bunker Druid over Boonbeast because although Boonbeast is a better 1v1 than a Bunker Druid in terms of slightly more DPS for kill power, the Bunker Druid is still a better 1v2 node stale, and better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal team mates. All in all, current Boonbeast and the better Bunker Druid setups are almost identical in the use of axe/axe and specializations selected, outside of the difference in their elites.

    Spellbreaker: Damage is maaaaaybe a bit too high after buffs to Forceful Greatsword, and I feel it is beginning to lack sustain. Not in a bad place but could be better.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - Either kill or get killed immediately.
    • As Bunker Druid - Stalemate in most cases. Though the new sword/shield Spellbreaker variants or just very high DPS variants in general, can be capable of killing a Bunker Druid if CCs are landed at the correct time. Likewise, they are squishy enough that the Bunker Druid can kill them if the stars do not align and they are unable to land CCs at the right time.

    Herald: It's in a good place from what I've seen, but it requires just the right team comp to play be able to play correctly.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - Heralds counter DPS Soulbeasts so long as the Soulebeast doesn't sucker punch them before they are ready to engage.
    • As Bunker Druid - Axe 5 retaliation alone counters Heralds. Then the Druid has too much sustain for the Herald to kill and the Herald's heal skill is useless when the Druid wins with attrition damage instead of burst damage. Druids counter Heralds.

    Core Guard: Clearly the dominant Core Class, viable amongst meta, not actually meta.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - Pretty equal match up actually.
    • As Bunker Druid - Bunker Druid counters Core Guard in the same way Boonbeast counters Core Guard. Mainly due to Axe 5 retal, and high defensive values that the Core Guard ultimately cannot keep up with.

    Firebrand: Eeeeeeeh I've seen good ones and I've seen bad ones. Seems like only the GOOD FBs kept playing after tome CD increase. Not so easy to spam FB anymore.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - DPS Soulbeast counters FB hard. This is a primary reason to log out/back in as a DPS Soulbeast for certain matches.
    • As Bunker Druid - Saying "It's balanced" doesn't even begin to adequately describe the tears that happen when a FB and a Bunker Druid meet on a neutral node 1v1 and get locked into a combat that goes no where while both players are waiting for a + to show up.

    Boonbeast: It's a better 1v1 than a Druid as it can deal damage to actually kill an opponent or run it off a node in the long run, but it is still not as good of a 1v2er as a Druid because it lacks the extreme defensive measures that Druid provides, and a Druid is still better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal its team mates. Not sure if I'd say Boonbeast is still OP or not, hard to tell from the perspective of a Bunker Druid.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - The Boonbeast counters DPS Soulbeast for many reasons.
    • As Bunker Druid - Stalemate, if both players are good, neither player can kill the other without a bit of luck or a +, but it isn't as boring of a fight as against the FB. Both players actually have to pay attention or they could die if they get lazy & sloppy.

    Holosmith: Lots of variant builds going around lately. I don't think it's necessarily OP, but some of it's attacks still need to be addressed in terms of how much random ultra range they have. <- That's for certain.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - They're an easy kill after the change of SRD into EE, if you can get the jump and lead in damage on them. Not so easy of a kill if they are ready to engage that first burst. I'd say it's a solid balanced match up if the DPS Soulbeast can play well.
    • As Bunker Druid - 9/10 Holos are easily countered by Bunker Druid, again for those Axe 5 retal reasons. If the Holo is good and avoids retail, he will eventually run the Bunker Druid off a node in the long run, and possibly have a chance of killing it if the Bunker Druid messes up his kiting.

    All Forms Of Thieves: Maybe I have bias because I run Ranger specs which are known for countering Thieves, but I feel Thieves are underperforming at this point as compared to previous seasons & metas, specifically in the sustain department. In this power crept high DPS meta, they get hit hard by EVERYTHING, including random 1 autos from something like a Bunker Druid. I would like to point out that players should give good Thief players props, because in this current DPS meta, they are playing GW2 on hard mode.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - It just counters and destroys Thief specs unless the Thief gets an enormously powerful lead in attack.
    • As Bunker Druid - Absolutely no chance of a Thief spec killing this 1v1 unless the Druid lags or his mouse starts bugging out, or the Druid is drunk or way too tired to be playing. The only exception to this is a top notch Deadeye. Sometimes a good DE can get you if they stealth in and play sneaky, stay patient, and catch you off guard.

    All forms of Necromancers: I feel like Reaper is in a great place, but Scourge is a bit lack luster at this point. Scourge had many of it's boon corrupts removed to nerf it in the past, but since then so many buffs have happened to increase the frequency of boon application on other classes and their durations, that Scourge may need some of its boon corrupts reimplemented to maintain its class function and purpose.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - The most severe counter possible vs Necromancers.
    • As Bunker Druid - Lately I can 1v1 Reapers or Scourges on nodes, due to the virtue of weakness spam, and deal enough damage over time to actually kill them. I don't think I would say Bunker Druid is a hard counter so to say, but they win the end.

    Mirages & Chronos: I'll let the persistent Mesmer complaint threads handle most of this, but I will say that although Mirages & Chronos may not necessarily be OP, they are the most obnoxious and not fun class to play against. Every other class feels fun to engage, with straight forward intuitive dynamics. Even Deadeyes "which are commonly complained about due to their high stealth uptime", are at least straight forward to deal with when they reveal granting an opening, or stealth and you have to LOS attempting to lure them into a bad situation. Engaging Mesmer based classes on the other hand as of 2019, it feels like you're standing in a big confetti storm, can't see anything, and there are 10 people who look the same, running around you in circles while firing taser guns at your face. This ultra silly gimmicky play gets old and just feels cheap after awhile. Maybe Arenanet should consider lowering the total amount of clone spam frequency, but slightly increasing the power of those clones to compensate. This would lower the pixel spam and in general reduce the amount of unintended advantages that clone spam grants.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - You can kill power based Mesmer builds, but just run from condi based.
    • As Bunker Druid - You can 1v1 most Mesmer based builds and eventually kill them, but the better players while on Condi based specs, can eventually decap you or possibly kill you, if you mess up at all. Druid is on the other hand very strong vs power Mesmer based builds.

    Weavers: They are in a much better place now and at least viable, still not a meta.

    • As DPS Soulbeast - You explode all ele builds due to lowest health pool.
    • As Bunker Druid - You can kill DPS based Eles pretty quickly, but good Eles that are sustainy turns into a 1v1 stalemate.

    A few other suggestions/concerns/comments:

    1. Match manipulation & 3rd party program use seemed lower this season. At least I wasn't effected by it as much. Felt like less shenanigans.
    2. There are way too many people using alts to block top 25 leaderboard positions. I am sure they probably own these accounts and that technically there probably isn't anything going on that breaks the TOS, but is there really nothing that can be done about this?
    3. Boosters - Would it be possible to implement special boosters that effect spvp directly and nothing else? Maybe boosters that say "+25% gain to reward track progress and maybe even pip progression", and they would work for a certain amount of matches instead of a timer count down. The timer count down for spvp is just a bad design considering wait times between ranked and ATs, also when a player wants to leave the mists to do something else. The normal booster timers just get wasted in spvp and are better used in pve farming for wvw, where gains made are actually worth the use of the booster.
    4. Please re-add the 2v2 ATs, that was a lot of fun. Just fix the arenas so the gates close after the match starts, and it spits each team into the actual arena, so they can't camp the spawn.
    5. Remove some of the obstructive visual clutter around the side nodes in the Djinn map. That map's objective also needs a lot of buffing.
    6. You guys gotta seriously considering omitting f2p accounts from playing in ranked mode at all. There are several reasons for this that I don't have the time to go into.
    7. Oh and, pvp guild missions need some kind of a serious overhaul. I'd love to see there be a reason to run teams through a guild again. That'd be great.

    ~ Welp, that's about it. Ty for your time.

    Not a high lvl player but this is spot on. Down to the DE vs ranger part.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Nice idea, let me contribute a bit.

    Talking mainly from a weaver's perspective here. I rarely switched to troll classes, most of my serious games were on a condi weaver variant using sage's amulet and different runes. It is still designed as a side node bunker, but with more damage and less sustain.

    Warrior:
    I still feel like the nerfs addressed the wrong issues. I found the damage of demo spellbreaker to be okayish - the sustain for such an amulet was too much. They should have made the passive heals scale a lot more with healing power, so warriors could either go for serious damage/+1 role with demo or bunker with mender or paladin.
    It is usually a longer fight. Depending on skill, CDs available or luck, warrior either kills me with rampage (lol) or I drive him off point, but it is a long and boring fight. I wish they would allow them those two roles dcescribed above though.

    Herald:
    Dangerous +1 build, since weaver still is vulnerable to power bursts. It is very dangerous and usually not killable as long as he doesn't overextend and stays in range for condis to kill him. Also impossible to run away when he +1s. Healthy spot from weaver's perspective.

    Guard:
    Firebrand is absolutely unkillable and negates my influence in team fights significantly. Weaver has almost no cover conditions, so he effectively shuts down a lot of my damage. Unkillable in duels, even the few duelist variants running around.
    Core guard is kinda the same like rev/herald. Dangerous +1 role, which is healthy. They last a lot longer in duels, but assuming same skill level, I drive them away eventually. They have so many cleanses...
    But all in all, okayish.

    Ranger:
    Boonbeast is the bane of my build. I can not kill them, I can only try to survive and stalemate. They can save their CDs for a +1, I have to use lots of them to survive. Awful. It does everything I do but a lot better.
    Drooids are just stalemates, power soulbeasts powerful +1s. I haven't seen many of either of them though.

    Holosmith:
    I feel like they are in a good spot. Might be different for other classes. They usually can't outsustain me on points, because they lack cleanses, but they have a lot bigger effect on many other fights - being able to +1, team fight and roam. Deleting the auto elixir S was great - now they have one less out of jail card against +1s.
    Sidenote: On my zerker chrono troll build, holo used to be really tough, because they could survive and resustain several times. Without the elixir, I could finally +1 them properly, which is great.

    Thief:
    Daredevil is awful to play against, assuming equal skill level (and CDs, situation etc.), they always drive me off point when they +1, immediately. No way to punish them, because of range, stealth and lack of proper AoEs.
    Other thieves actually kinda lack sustain indeed. D/P or core thieves usually can't down me in a +1 immediately, and at the same time they can hardly contribute to DPS me down before they have to start to disengage because of conditions. That might be because they expect mender weavers and are surprised, but those are +1s I often survive and resustain before they cap a point.
    Deadeye should be changed, the damage is good, but they should become punishable. I think the nerfs were (once again) not goind in the right direction, they should not have changed the power but the disengage capabilities. Other builds should have be looked at sustained damage for +1s, not necessarily burst.

    Necromancer:
    Scourge is usually extremely tough to kill, especially in team fights. The cleanses are enough for a weaver, the barriers and stuff... in duel scenarios I wear them down eventually, but it usually takes too long to be of good use. Hoeever, they are team fighters and as such I feel in a good spot.
    Reaper has the same role like rev or core guard for me. +1 power damage, very dangerous, usually drives me off point immediately. It is countered though by several other builds, so I think it is okay.

    Mesmer:
    Condi mirage is still awful. Due to my higher damage but less sustain, it often does not end up in a stalemate, but in a long and boring fight, where I don't have opportunities to counter attack. I decap, then the point stays neutral.
    Power variants are the usual dangerous power +1 role. But more easily punishable than DE, while the bursts are more dangerous.

    Elementalist:
    Tempests basically don't exist, bunker weavers re stalemates, FA weavers - those few still playing - are tough, but they lack the sustained burst of the other power +1s when counter pressured. I still would like to the the damage nerfs revoked and other changes like FA having an internal CD of 1s tried. Well...

    Conclusion:
    Due to nerfs to other classes (except boonbeast lol), weaver indeed is in a better spot. I usually win most of my duels except soulbeast and most mirages. I also feel like condi weaver is how condi builds should be - slowly applying the damage, wearing the opponent down. However, it is still extremely vulnerable when caught off guard, with no escape CDs left (which have a long CD, RtL 15/30s, LF 40s or ToF 50s).

    My wishes are:
    Reduce condi application by condi mirage and scourge, at the same time reduce cleanses from firebrand - and also from weaver. This way, conditions are not as extremely punishing for builds not having massed cleanses (or block, invulns, etc.), but also condi build variety would increase. Not talking about condi thief, but ranger, engi, even burn guards...

    Also, nerf boonbeast spam. Adjust/slightly buff warriors, thief. With this, I think there would be few changes necessary for weaver (except those small range increases I have been asking for a year now...).

    As I said, everything from my weaver's perspective.

    You should play deadeye to understand that the stealth disengage is necessary. I tired to play with out slient scope. Nopenope nope. u r basically instantly dead 9/10 since u die in 2 hits It's lacks the evades, blocks, invis or boon protection every one else has that are often built into their weapon set. Guardian focus 5, mesmer sword 2 ranger gs block etc etc

    Basically if they can target u and u burn your 2 dodges u r dead. Sure you can switch ur set to s/d or d/p but you don't have the DD traits or the acrobatics to keep you alive.

    I am in favor of removing slient scope if they gave it some other form of sustain. Such as removing cast time on skill 4 to teleport and removing 1 int from it. This means that a DE can't attack if it decides to leave . Either that or keep it as it is and allow it to decide where to teleport and add cost.

    Change shadow meld into 3 casts and increae cool down. So there is some way of disengage but the DE has to know when to use it and if he spams it he's dead.

    And or when dodging a DE is detargeted but not stealthed.

    These are just ideas that came up. May not be great... But still something needs to be done if scope is removed. Because simply DE just doesn't work with out it.

  • Miles Smiles.8951Miles Smiles.8951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Miles Smiles.8951 said:

    @Ario.8964 said:

    Mes:
    As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 2 of your 5 sword skills split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.

    It's all gucci and I'm not complaining but why no one seems to realize that sword 4 splits its damage as well?

    And impossible odds, and enchanted daggers, and shiro facet of nature. Pet classes are such a pain.

    Yeah but I mean like legit splits the first and the second hitting parts; and people keep saying "aoe 8k hit" when it only does high dmg on single targets akin to sword 2 and sword 3

  • Ario.8964Ario.8964 Member ✭✭✭

    @Miles Smiles.8951 said:

    @Ario.8964 said:

    Mes:
    As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 2 of your 5 sword skills split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.

    It's all gucci and I'm not complaining but why no one seems to realize that sword 4 splits its damage as well?

    I honestly never knew about that. Awesome info to have, I'll go edit my post cause damage splits are what makes pet classes so awful to fight.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Nice idea, let me contribute a bit.

    Talking mainly from a weaver's perspective here. I rarely switched to troll classes, most of my serious games were on a condi weaver variant using sage's amulet and different runes. It is still designed as a side node bunker, but with more damage and less sustain.

    Warrior:
    I still feel like the nerfs addressed the wrong issues. I found the damage of demo spellbreaker to be okayish - the sustain for such an amulet was too much. They should have made the passive heals scale a lot more with healing power, so warriors could either go for serious damage/+1 role with demo or bunker with mender or paladin.
    It is usually a longer fight. Depending on skill, CDs available or luck, warrior either kills me with rampage (lol) or I drive him off point, but it is a long and boring fight. I wish they would allow them those two roles dcescribed above though.

    Herald:
    Dangerous +1 build, since weaver still is vulnerable to power bursts. It is very dangerous and usually not killable as long as he doesn't overextend and stays in range for condis to kill him. Also impossible to run away when he +1s. Healthy spot from weaver's perspective.

    Guard:
    Firebrand is absolutely unkillable and negates my influence in team fights significantly. Weaver has almost no cover conditions, so he effectively shuts down a lot of my damage. Unkillable in duels, even the few duelist variants running around.
    Core guard is kinda the same like rev/herald. Dangerous +1 role, which is healthy. They last a lot longer in duels, but assuming same skill level, I drive them away eventually. They have so many cleanses...
    But all in all, okayish.

    Ranger:
    Boonbeast is the bane of my build. I can not kill them, I can only try to survive and stalemate. They can save their CDs for a +1, I have to use lots of them to survive. Awful. It does everything I do but a lot better.
    Drooids are just stalemates, power soulbeasts powerful +1s. I haven't seen many of either of them though.

    Holosmith:
    I feel like they are in a good spot. Might be different for other classes. They usually can't outsustain me on points, because they lack cleanses, but they have a lot bigger effect on many other fights - being able to +1, team fight and roam. Deleting the auto elixir S was great - now they have one less out of jail card against +1s.
    Sidenote: On my zerker chrono troll build, holo used to be really tough, because they could survive and resustain several times. Without the elixir, I could finally +1 them properly, which is great.

    Thief:
    Daredevil is awful to play against, assuming equal skill level (and CDs, situation etc.), they always drive me off point when they +1, immediately. No way to punish them, because of range, stealth and lack of proper AoEs.
    Other thieves actually kinda lack sustain indeed. D/P or core thieves usually can't down me in a +1 immediately, and at the same time they can hardly contribute to DPS me down before they have to start to disengage because of conditions. That might be because they expect mender weavers and are surprised, but those are +1s I often survive and resustain before they cap a point.
    Deadeye should be changed, the damage is good, but they should become punishable. I think the nerfs were (once again) not goind in the right direction, they should not have changed the power but the disengage capabilities. Other builds should have be looked at sustained damage for +1s, not necessarily burst.

    Necromancer:
    Scourge is usually extremely tough to kill, especially in team fights. The cleanses are enough for a weaver, the barriers and stuff... in duel scenarios I wear them down eventually, but it usually takes too long to be of good use. Hoeever, they are team fighters and as such I feel in a good spot.
    Reaper has the same role like rev or core guard for me. +1 power damage, very dangerous, usually drives me off point immediately. It is countered though by several other builds, so I think it is okay.

    Mesmer:
    Condi mirage is still awful. Due to my higher damage but less sustain, it often does not end up in a stalemate, but in a long and boring fight, where I don't have opportunities to counter attack. I decap, then the point stays neutral.
    Power variants are the usual dangerous power +1 role. But more easily punishable than DE, while the bursts are more dangerous.

    Elementalist:
    Tempests basically don't exist, bunker weavers re stalemates, FA weavers - those few still playing - are tough, but they lack the sustained burst of the other power +1s when counter pressured. I still would like to the the damage nerfs revoked and other changes like FA having an internal CD of 1s tried. Well...

    Conclusion:
    Due to nerfs to other classes (except boonbeast lol), weaver indeed is in a better spot. I usually win most of my duels except soulbeast and most mirages. I also feel like condi weaver is how condi builds should be - slowly applying the damage, wearing the opponent down. However, it is still extremely vulnerable when caught off guard, with no escape CDs left (which have a long CD, RtL 15/30s, LF 40s or ToF 50s).

    My wishes are:
    Reduce condi application by condi mirage and scourge, at the same time reduce cleanses from firebrand - and also from weaver. This way, conditions are not as extremely punishing for builds not having massed cleanses (or block, invulns, etc.), but also condi build variety would increase. Not talking about condi thief, but ranger, engi, even burn guards...

    Also, nerf boonbeast spam. Adjust/slightly buff warriors, thief. With this, I think there would be few changes necessary for weaver (except those small range increases I have been asking for a year now...).

    As I said, everything from my weaver's perspective.

    You should play deadeye to understand that the stealth disengage is necessary. I tired to play with out slient scope. Nopenope nope. u r basically instantly dead 9/10 since u die in 2 hits It's lacks the evades, blocks, invis or boon protection every one else has that are often built into their weapon set. Guardian focus 5, mesmer sword 2 ranger gs block etc etc

    Basically if they can target u and u burn your 2 dodges u r dead. Sure you can switch ur set to s/d or d/p but you don't have the DD traits or the acrobatics to keep you alive.

    I am in favor of removing slient scope if they gave it some other form of sustain. Such as removing cast time on skill 4 to teleport and removing 1 int from it. This means that a DE can't attack if it decides to leave . Either that or keep it as it is and allow it to decide where to teleport and add cost.

    Change shadow meld into 3 casts and increae cool down. So there is some way of disengage but the DE has to know when to use it and if he spams it he's dead.

    And or when dodging a DE is detargeted but not stealthed.

    These are just ideas that came up. May not be great... But still something needs to be done if scope is removed. Because simply DE just doesn't work with out it.

    I wanted to focus on the current state. There are - for thief, mesmer, ele and others - quite a lot of useful and constructive solutione to the current state. I know deadeye and know it needs stealth in its current state - but as you said, they should change that. It is not even that it's OP, it is just awful to play around because especially weaver lacks any real kind of counter pressure possibility.

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