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The Forgotten aren't as dead as we were told.

In HoT, we were told that the last of the forgotten died many years ago. Yet, there are branded forgotten in the crystal desert. This branded could only have been created recently. Apparently, there were branded still alive that the exalted didn't know about. I bet that there are other forgotten that are still alive.

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  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Those who are dead can also be branded.

  • Branding doesn't reanimate. It can't even corrupt ghosts; see how many Foefire ghosts have been caught in Kralkatorrik's path and breath and none of them are crazier than they are by default. Or how the Tomb of Primeval Kings got hit nice and clean by the Brand and yet all the Primeval ghosts are happily wasting their undeath around without wanting to mindlessly love and serve Kralkatorrik. Branding corrupts the physical realm and can only twist living individuals into dragon minions.

    As for what DarcShriek brought up in the OP; indeed, from having all died out or departed Tyria into the Mists, it got retconned into them being active in the Crystal Desert all this time, trying to figure out a way to solve the Elder Dragon problem for good, only to all get branded when Kralkatorrik killed Glint and in the immediate aftermath. Plus, their kind of magic proved resistant to draconic corruption and also capable of lifting the enslavement/control a dragon exerts over the corrupted and yet they've all gotten branded somehow. You'd think they would insure themselves with that magic to resist corruption...

  • LazerusKI.7485LazerusKI.7485 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2017

    edit: nevermind, my mistake

  • JayMack.8295JayMack.8295 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2017

    Except branding seems to actually be able to reanimate the dead:

    I mean if you want to make the case that it's 'sleeping' then go for it, but that looks like a pretty dead Devourer to me. That could be the influence of Zhaitan's released magic, or it could be that branding could re-animate corpses but not spirits. Judging by the poison-smoke like effect it gives off when struck by lightning, I'm going for 'death magic' influence.

    Whether Kralk got that AFTER Balth's death or after Zhaitan's death, I don't know. It didn't seem to show any combined branded forces in the expansion.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2017

    Yes, this is a bit of a retcon just for the sake of having branded Forgotten bosses from GW1 (despite the fact we killed them), it seems. A minor thing really but rather annoying.

    PoF has some annoying timeline issues when it comes to Vlast, the Forgotten, Glint, and Kralkatorrik. And when it comes to Balthazar and the Gods. Whoever was there to ensure lore continuity didn't do a good job...

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    Branding doesn't reanimate.

    We have nothing to confirm or deny this, technically speaking. The Brand affects all things physical. Zhaitan wasn't the only one to use corspes - we know Jormag did too, well before getting Zhaitan's power. It's not unlikely to believe Kralkatorrik could too. Of course, we see a dead devourer get branded and mobile, but one could too easily argue this is "Zhaitan's power" (even though reanimating the dead is not what "Zhaitan's domain of death" was about - it was about turning things into rotten mobile corpses, whether they were living or dead when corrupted).

    Just because he doesn't/couldn't corrupt ghosts doesn't mean much.

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  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Yes, this is a bit of a retcon just for the sake of having branded Forgotten bosses from GW1 (despite the fact we killed them), it seems. A minor thing really but rather annoying.

    PoF has some annoying timeline issues when it comes to Vlast, the Forgotten, Glint, and Kralkatorrik. And when it comes to Balthazar and the Gods. Whoever was there to ensure lore continuity didn't do a good job...

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    Branding doesn't reanimate.

    We have nothing to confirm or deny this, technically speaking. The Brand affects all things physical. Zhaitan wasn't the only one to use corspes - we know Jormag did too, well before getting Zhaitan's power. It's not unlikely to believe Kralkatorrik could too. Of course, we see a dead devourer get branded and mobile, but one could too easily argue this is "Zhaitan's power" (even though reanimating the dead is not what "Zhaitan's domain of death" was about - it was about turning things into rotten mobile corpses, whether they were living or dead when corrupted).

    Just because he doesn't/couldn't corrupt ghosts doesn't mean much.

    He has power of mind and death now, so he could reanimate without them being like risen

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    Branding doesn't reanimate. It can't even corrupt ghosts; see how many Foefire ghosts have been caught in Kralkatorrik's path and breath and none of them are crazier than they are by default. Or how the Tomb of Primeval Kings got hit nice and clean by the Brand and yet all the Primeval ghosts are happily wasting their undeath around without wanting to mindlessly love and serve Kralkatorrik. Branding corrupts the physical realm and can only twist living individuals into dragon minions.

    As for what DarcShriek brought up in the OP; indeed, from having all died out or departed Tyria into the Mists, it got retconned into them being active in the Crystal Desert all this time, trying to figure out a way to solve the Elder Dragon problem for good, only to all get branded when Kralkatorrik killed Glint and in the immediate aftermath. Plus, their kind of magic proved resistant to draconic corruption and also capable of lifting the enslavement/control a dragon exerts over the corrupted and yet they've all gotten branded somehow. You'd think they would insure themselves with that magic to resist corruption...

    If you watch the final video of when Kralk flies again, he brings back a dead devourer and brands it, its linked above. id say thats at least some proof that he can do so. Obviously not much can be done to a ghost.

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  • Athrenn.9468Athrenn.9468 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Obviously not much can be done to a ghost.

    What about all those ghosts of the Orrian royal family who were turned into Eyes of Zhaitan?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Athrenn.9468 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Obviously not much can be done to a ghost.

    What about all those ghosts of the Orrian royal family who were turned into Eyes of Zhaitan?

    That involved binding the ghosts back into a corrupted corporeal body, rather than corrupting the ghost directly. And as we see with Reza, the spirit itself is not corrupted and retains its original personality once the body is killed and the spirit released.

    Risen Wraiths, on the other hand...

  • Thalador.4218Thalador.4218 Member ✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    @JayMack.8295 said:
    Except branding seems to actually be able to reanimate the dead:

    I mean if you want to make the case that it's 'sleeping' then go for it, but that looks like a pretty dead Devourer to me. That could be the influence of Zhaitan's released magic, or it could be that branding could re-animate corpses but not spirits. Judging by the poison-smoke like effect it gives off when struck by lightning, I'm going for 'death magic' influence.

    Whether Kralk got that AFTER Balth's death or after Zhaitan's death, I don't know. It didn't seem to show any combined branded forces in the expansion.

    Wow... and no, I didn't mean to argue that it was asleep. :tongue: That's definitely not 'sleeping,' unless devourers like to sleep in the balled-up, dead insect/arachnid way. Guess Kralkatorrik does have the means to reanimate now; and that sick green miasma swirling around the newly "risen" branded devourer reeks of the Zhaitanic (such a goofy term) spectrum of magic. I'd still argue that branding in its original form - without the energies of dead dragons getting passed around like the flu between other Elder Dragons - is incapable of necromantic reanimation, but this scene was clearly to showcase that the Zhaitan-spiced Primo energies Balthaddon had munched on at the end of Episode 5 has now been claimed by Kralkatorrik as well. I hope this means he'll get to create branded Giganticus Lupicus and leviathan skeletons in Season 4 - if he's still in the desert somewhere.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    (even though reanimating the dead is not what "Zhaitan's domain of death" was about - it was about turning things into rotten mobile corpses, whether they were living or dead when corrupted).

    Still, in order for his pestilence/pox corruption to take effect... effectively, it was preferred for the 'host' to be dead as a doornail. His magical corruption really isn't that different from a zombie virus: it automatically reanimates the infected corpses and applies accelerated decay, while in the case of living organism it has poisoned - if the exposure was really intense and concentrated - it slowly spreads through them, killing them, and after death comes the reanimation almost immediately (like in the case of that Seraph dude... Corporal Kellach, I think?). When the living are corrupted they don't immediately become risen - they die first and then become risen. In the case of the corrupted trees in Sparkfly Fen, I believe we see the living organism fighting the Zhaitanic plague and losing, dying at an accelerated rate to the unnatural sickness. I'm curious what would be the end of that: simply a dead tree infused with and radiating Zhaitan's corruption, or an 'undead' tree actively infecting and killing/poisoning the land around it and potentially spawning berries and fruits of... undeath? I bet if Zhaitan possessed Mordremoth's energies he could turn such trees into curse-rotted trees seen in Dark Souls 3.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thalador.4218 said:

    @JayMack.8295 said:
    Except branding seems to actually be able to reanimate the dead:

    I mean if you want to make the case that it's 'sleeping' then go for it, but that looks like a pretty dead Devourer to me. That could be the influence of Zhaitan's released magic, or it could be that branding could re-animate corpses but not spirits. Judging by the poison-smoke like effect it gives off when struck by lightning, I'm going for 'death magic' influence.

    Whether Kralk got that AFTER Balth's death or after Zhaitan's death, I don't know. It didn't seem to show any combined branded forces in the expansion.

    Wow... and no, I didn't mean to argue that it was asleep. :tongue: That's definitely not 'sleeping,' unless devourers like to sleep in the balled-up, dead insect/arachnid way. Guess Kralkatorrik does have the means to reanimate now; and that sick green miasma swirling around the newly "risen" branded devourer reeks of the Zhaitanic (such a goofy term) spectrum of magic. I'd still argue that branding in its original form - without the energies of dead dragons getting passed around like the flu between other Elder Dragons - is incapable of necromantic reanimation, but this scene was clearly to showcase that the Zhaitan-spiced Primo energies Balthaddon had munched on at the end of Episode 5 has now been claimed by Kralkatorrik as well. I hope this means he'll get to create branded Giganticus Lupicus and leviathan skeletons in Season 4 - if he's still in the desert somewhere.

    It's also worth noting that Kralkatorrik was one of the closer dragons to Orr when Zhaitan died. So he may have picked some up some of Zhaitan's magic directly from Zhaitan's death.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    He has power of mind and death now, so he could reanimate without them being like risen

    You missed my point. Zhaitan's unique magic was never about reanimation - it's just that it was most effective/obvious to be used on corpses. Zhaitan corrupted plenty of living plants and animals, some of which took on a rotting appearance without dying in the process. Further, other dragons could reanimate: Jormag reanimated a norn corpse in 1319 AE, six years before Zhaitan's death. There's nothing to say that Kralkatorrik could not brand a corpse and make it a "living" minion again.

    While it could easily be influence from Zhaitan's magic, nothing says that it must be.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    Still, in order for his pestilence/pox corruption to take effect... effectively, it was preferred for the 'host' to be dead as a doornail. His magical corruption really isn't that different from a zombie virus: it automatically reanimates the infected corpses and applies accelerated decay, while in the case of living organism it has poisoned - if the exposure was really intense and concentrated - it slowly spreads through them, killing them, and after death comes the reanimation almost immediately (like in the case of that Seraph dude... Corporal Kellach, I think?). When the living are corrupted they don't immediately become risen - they die first and then become risen. In the case of the corrupted trees in Sparkfly Fen, I believe we see the living organism fighting the Zhaitanic plague and losing, dying at an accelerated rate to the unnatural sickness. I'm curious what would be the end of that: simply a dead tree infused with and radiating Zhaitan's corruption, or an 'undead' tree actively infecting and killing/poisoning the land around it and potentially spawning berries and fruits of... undeath? I bet if Zhaitan possessed Mordremoth's energies he could turn such trees into curse-rotted trees seen in Dark Souls 3.

    Necromancer Rissa is called a risen by various NPCs in the charr plot. Not dead.

    Kellach doesn't die when he takes on the risen appearance either, just just goes from normal living to flesh falling off. No moment of pause or keeling over.

    And we actually do see risen trees. They have the same visual effect that Kellach does on his skin before it goes rotten - a strange, purple pulsing veiny look.

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  • Those are the very trees I'd mentioned in the post you quoted, except I argued they might not all be risen but simply sick and dying.

    Risen are the dead reanimated by Zhaitan's corruption. Living individuals cursed by Zhaitan's power can become sick in both body and mind (though it seems only mind is possible as well, as it was in the case of Rissa) but until they die they are not reanimated into risen. They might think they act of their own free will but their thoughts are influenced - they are indoctrinated. Howl had to die for the corrupted crystal to make him risen, and just because Kellach didn't fall over doesn't mean he didn't die. Maybe his reanimation was instantaneous and his corpse didn't even have time to collapse before Zhaitan's "kill everything on sight" order kicked in immediately.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    Those trees aren't "sick and dying". They're downright risen:

    Those foul things seemed to spring up when the Orrians invaded. The corruptions are lethal and must be destroyed.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crusader_Aisling

    They weren't wildlife that got corrupted with the risen's presence, it seems, but invaded alongside the risen.

    There's even one in Cursed Shore, in the middle of the maze, as part of an event. I doubt a living plant could survive so long in Orr.

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    Risen are the dead reanimated by Zhaitan's corruption. Living individuals cursed by Zhaitan's power can become sick in both body and mind (though it seems only mind is possible as well, as it was in the case of Rissa) but until they die they are not reanimated into risen. They might think they act of their own free will but their thoughts are influenced - they are indoctrinated. Howl had to die for the corrupted crystal to make him risen, and just because Kellach didn't fall over doesn't mean he didn't die. Maybe his reanimation was instantaneous and his corpse didn't even have time to collapse before Zhaitan's "kill everything on sight" order kicked in immediately.

    Do you actually have anything to back this up? I'm basing what I say after actual observation and dialogue.

    About Howl: the Corrupted Crystal is just one of many ways Zhaitan could corrupt. Just as another was to let corpses sit and be radiated by corrupted urns, or another was to wield a corrupted sword. It's like using the Sanguinary Blade as an example for "the way Jormag always corrupts" when it very much isn't.

    And as for Kellach - never do we not see the killed fall over before becoming risen, even in the novels where corruption seems to work much faster than shown in the game (and risen are much more durable) those who become risen by death first fell over and picked themselves up just before hitting the ground.

    The only case we see of Zhaitan's corruption not corrupting the living is this one heart. But this counteracts Kellach, Rissa, and other examples such as this heart where corruption from eating risen occurs. Which would mean that case with the quaggan is not actual corruption, but a byproduct of it.

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