"SPOILERS" Elder Dragons ?

Hello everyone.

You can also find a share of opinions on this matter at this link for further and different theory enjoy :)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/bsf19v/spoilers_elder_dragons/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

So, for what I have experienced in the game and learned until now is:

Elder dragons are awakening in order, this order is based on their size for what I have learned, from comments based on game dialogues.

It explains that when 1 falls tremendous amount of Leyline energy is released, and that energy is absorbed by the older dragons.

The bigger the dragon, the bigger the amount of energy this one need to absorb to awake, that's why zaitan was the first. He was the smallest elder dragon.

Gods can also absorb this energy, and dragons absorb other's energy aswell despite who they are, humans, dragons , gods etc.

If one dies and it's energy is absorbed, their powers also are " learned " from their absorbed magic. Dragons now have zaitan's and mordemoth powers.

Primordius was sleeping when Balthazar absorbed it's energy, later we know that kralkatorric absorbed Balthazar.

Aurene in the end of kralkatorric absorbed all the energy that it had, this includes all the energy and powers this one's also had from the previous absorbed gods and dragons.

Aurene can also use palawa Joko powers .

My questions are, did aurene actually absorbed all the dragon energy when it fall? or is the amount of energy released so vast that she can't absorb it all for herself?

Were the other's dragons able to do it aswell ? If yes then, Who is the next dragon after kralkatorric in size comparison that was able to absorb the energy and awake?

I notice that kralkatorric felt on the water, you think the sea dragon is the next to awake ? Since he is probably the one closest. People on internet say that the sea dragon is the biggest one, this might also implies that he will be the last to awake.

There is something that makes me think , he controls the sea, all that area is so huge, probably he has the biggest Leyline energy banquet of all!compared to other dragons that are in land, this one rules the ocean all alone , he has all the energy at his disposal because he doesn't have anything else to compete with him for the energy right? Hehe no need to share ;D .

What you guys think?

Primordus was awake when Balthazar’s absorbed its magic. It was even reported active during ls3 and a current event has us tracking its movement. It was the first to stir and only the events if gw1 prevented it awakening st the natural time

There is no relation between awakening order and size given Mordremoth was the last and zhaitan the first and both have so far been the smallest shown. Technically primordus would be the smallest given his gw1 model and it is speculated his gorging in magic grew him to the size we saw

@Randulf.7614 said:Primordus was awake when Balthazar’s absorbed its magic. It was even reported active during ls3 and a current event has us tracking its movement. It was the first to stir and only the events if gw1 prevented it awakening st the natural time

There is no relation between awakening order and size given Mordremoth was the last and zhaitan the first and both have so far been the smallest shown. Technically primordus would be the smallest given his gw1 model and it is speculated his gorging in magic grew him to the size we saw

Mordremoth was the largest. He was the size of Maguuma and grew all over Tyria, extending his roots and vines all the way to Iron Marches. Other than the vine parts of his body that are indistinguishable from mordrem vines, we only see the Mouth.

@"migcun.5240" said:Elder dragons are awakening in order, this order is based on their size for what I have learned, from comments based on game dialogues.

It explains that when 1 falls tremendous amount of Leyline energy is released, and that energy is absorbed by the older dragons.

The bigger the dragon, the bigger the amount of energy this one need to absorb to awake, that's why zaitan was the first. He was the smallest elder dragon.

This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

Primordus is the largest model to date, and he was the first Elder Dragon to awaken. Primordus and Kralkatorrik awoke late, but this was not because of their size, but because their "heralds" were killed (or betrayed). In the case of Primordus, the herald was The Great Destroyer (the primary antagonist of Eye of the North expansion in GW1); for Kralkatorrik, this was Glint. We do not know the DSD's herald, and Mordremoth made an impromptu Herald via Scarlet Briar during Season 1, Jormag's Herald was Drakkar, similarly seen but never interacted directly with during GW1, and Zhaitan's Herald is implied to be the Giganticus Lupicus we fight in Arah explorable.

You're likely thinking that they're asleep because they're inactive. Elder Dragons basically have three states:

• Asleep. They cannot create minions, and instead of consuming magic, they release it into the world.
• Inactive. They're making minions; they're consuming magic that they're sitting atop.
• Active. They're launching armies out into the world, and/or moving to find new sources of magic to consume.

Elder Dragons go back and forth between active and inactive based on the magic they're sitting on and the amount of minions they have (fewer minions = inactive). Jormag and Primordus were active during the novel Edge of Destiny, which takes place 5 years before the events of the personal story. Destiny's Edge killed their champions and reduced their minion numbers, putting them back into an inactive state. Similarly, Zhaitan was active during the Sea of Sorrows novel, taking place 100-70 years before GW2, and was inactive by the time the novel ended due to its army's destruction.

Primordius was sleeping when Balthazar absorbed it's energy, later we know that kralkatorric absorbed Balthazar.

Primordus was not only awake, but active. He may seem sleeping because he was paralyzed by Taimi's Machine. But he was awaken until we destroyed the machine. It's even outright stated that Primordus was put back to sleep because of the magic drawn from him.

My questions are, did aurene actually absorbed all the dragon energy when it fall? or is the amount of energy released so vast that she can't absorb it all for herself?

Were the other's dragons able to do it aswell ? If yes then, Who is the next dragon after kralkatorric in size comparison that was able to absorb the energy and awake?

Aurene was right next to the source of magic, while the other Elder Dragons were hundreds of miles away from the sources of magic when the other Elder Dragons die. This is why Aurene was able to absorb all of Kralkatorrik's magic while Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's escaped into the world.

I notice that kralkatorric felt on the water, you think the sea dragon is the next to awake ? Since he is probably the one closest. People on internet say that the sea dragon is the biggest one, this might also implies that he will be the last to awake.

Kralkatorrik fell a few dozen miles off the shoreline. The DSD awoke - 200 years ago I will add - in the deepest parts of the Unending Ocean. The Ocean isn't that small. And karka, krait, and quaggan migration patterns imply that the DSD is far, far west of the Ring of Fire. Closer to Mordremoth's place of death than where Kralkatorrik fell.

There is something that makes me think , he controls the sea, all that area is so huge, probably he has the biggest Leyline energy banquet of all!compared to other dragons that are in land, this one rules the ocean all alone , he has all the energy at his disposal because he doesn't have anything else to compete with him for the energy right? Hehe no need to share ;D .

The DSD doesn't control the entire sea, just as Primordus doesn't control all lava or Mordremoth didn't control all plantlife.

You say a different theory... but this is the same thing others are positioning: "The DSD is next!" You're just incorrect in thinking it and the other Elder Dragons have been asleep when not the focus.

@Randulf.7614 said:There is no relation between awakening order and size given Mordremoth was the last and zhaitan the first and both have so far been the smallest shown. Technically primordus would be the smallest given his gw1 model and it is speculated his gorging in magic grew him to the size we saw

Zhaitan was fourth to awaken. Primordus still woke up first, even if delayed.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

Mordremoth was the largest. He was the size of Maguuma and grew all over Tyria, extending his roots and vines all the way to Iron Marches. Other than the vine parts of his body that are indistinguishable from mordrem vines, we only see the Mouth.

You're mistaking the breadth of his corruption for his personal size. He wasn't the roots, those were his corruption that his mind could inhabit. His actual body was the Mouth of Mordremoth. This has been confirmed several times over.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"migcun.5240" said:Elder dragons are awakening in order, this order is based on their size for what I have learned, from comments based on game dialogues.

It explains that when 1 falls tremendous amount of Leyline energy is released, and that energy is absorbed by the older dragons.

The bigger the dragon, the bigger the amount of energy this one need to absorb to awake, that's why zaitan was the first. He was the smallest elder dragon.

• Asleep. They cannot create minions, and instead of consuming magic, they release it into the world.
• Inactive. They're making minions; they're consuming magic that they're sitting atop.
• Active. They're launching armies out into the world, and/or moving to find new sources of magic to consume.

Primordius was sleeping when Balthazar absorbed it's energy, later we know that kralkatorric absorbed Balthazar.

My questions are, did aurene actually absorbed all the dragon energy when it fall? or is the amount of energy released so vast that she can't absorb it all for herself?

Were the other's dragons able to do it aswell ? If yes then, Who is the next dragon after kralkatorric in size comparison that was able to absorb the energy and awake?

I notice that kralkatorric felt on the water, you think the sea dragon is the next to awake ? Since he is probably the one closest. People on internet say that the sea dragon is the biggest one, this might also implies that he will be the last to awake.

There is something that makes me think , he controls the sea, all that area is so huge, probably he has the biggest Leyline energy banquet of all!compared to other dragons that are in land, this one rules the ocean all alone , he has all the energy at his disposal because he doesn't have anything else to compete with him for the energy right? Hehe no need to share ;D .

I have to replay gw1 I can't barely remember what happen in there and looks like some hints are in there for sure.

:o seems a great deal every time I try to link everything all together by myself ! :)Thanks a lot! :) That helped !

@Randulf.7614 said:Primordus was awake when Balthazar’s absorbed its magic. It was even reported active during ls3 and a current event has us tracking its movement. It was the first to stir and only the events if gw1 prevented it awakening st the natural time

There is no relation between awakening order and size given Mordremoth was the last and zhaitan the ~~first ~~ middle and both have so far been the smallest shown. Technically primordus would be the smallest given his gw1 model and it is speculated his gorging in magic grew him to the size we saw

edited since I misremembered Zhaitan's rise

We'd also likely to be able to detect the DSD if it was this close. In S1, the disturbances caused by the Karka migration were detectable (just unknown to the cause) as it approached LA and te coast of Tyria. With Taimi being able to locate and discover Primordus' activity levels in her lab, there is also a chance the same tech can detect the DSD or at least if it comes into range.

As it stands, it would a least suggest the DSD is absolutely nowhere nearby during any events of the last 7 years. It appears to have affected land somewhere given the line "In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land." , but there is no indication of that is Continental Tyria or if it was Tyria, it no longer near it now. It is clearly unthreatened and likely has leylines out there to gorge on. The motive to come to shore is unclear and perhaps the Dragon only exists out there to give the game flavour and a source of speculation whilst equally out this balance of the All rubbish they've been pedalling since S1/S2

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

Mordremoth was the largest. He was the size of Maguuma and grew all over Tyria, extending his roots and vines all the way to Iron Marches. Other than the vine parts of his body that are indistinguishable from mordrem vines, we only see the Mouth.

I am not. The difference between the vines that are mordrem and the vines that are part of Mordremoth himself is mentioned several times through the story.

It was clearly stated that he himself grew large enough to spread both his mordrem and his own vines all over Tyria.

While most of the vines we encounter are standalone mordrem vines and not part of him, the dragon himself was not limited to that tiny snake-like part we see in Dragon's Stand.

And when characters say that while we are traveling through the heart of Maguuma, we are actually on top of the dragon, it was not hyperbole.Based on the overall design of the dragon, probably all the large wood-like vines with a purple glow coursing through them were part of the dragon. Like the ones at the bottom of Verdant Brink.

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:-snip-

As confirmed by devs. The important line:As such, Mordremoth isn't one single entity, unless you are describing the entire jungle.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/496259/#Comment_496259

TL;DR, the vines are as much of Mordremoth's body as Trahearne is by the end. They're not part of the Mouth of Mordremoth, which was the sole body Mordremoth had at while in hibernation.

Mordremoth is akin to Ultron in the Avengers 2 movie. He has one mind and multiple bodies. But the Mouth of Mordremoth is the core, root, body, similar to the main, iconic-faced, body we see Ultron use against the Avengers in the movie. The vines are not (all - debatable) part of Mordremoth, but his mind inhabits them. To say that that Mordremoth's body expands the whole of Central Tyria because the vines do, is the same as saying Zhaitan's body is the entire risen horde, or Kralkatorrik's body is the entire Dragonbrand. The vines are Mordremoth's corruption in the end, and he's capable of putting his mind into his corruption via his Mind domain.

Mordremoth's core, original/oldest, and primary body is just that "tiny snake-like part". The vines are just "spares" he created.

@migcun.5240 said:Aurene in the end of kralkatorric absorbed all the energy that it had, this includes all the energy and powers this one's also had from the previous absorbed gods and dragons.

They made it a plot point this chapter that if Kralk died in the Mists, his magic would be dispersed there where it would be harmless.

I interpreted this as Aurene absorbed Kralk's core essence by consuming his heart, taking all the powers of the Elder Crystal Dragon. Then all of the excess magic that was driving Kralk insane through torment (Mord's/Zhaitan's/Primordeous+Jormag+Balth's) just got dumped into the mists.

I dunno, it wasn't real clear, but they wouldn't have made it a point about the Mists being a safe place to kill him magic-wise, if that wasn't supposed to be a part of it. And Aurene would not have been okay had she absorbed that much.

@narcx.3570 said:They made it a plot point this chapter that if Kralk died in the Mists, his magic would be dispersed there where it would be harmless.

They said the opposite, actually:

Aurene: Now we must ride...scion and champion. Flush Kralkatorrik...from the Mists.Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.

They could not kill Kralkatorrik in the Mists, because if his magic dispersed into the Mists then Tyria would still die.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@narcx.3570 said:They made it a plot point this chapter that if Kralk died in the Mists, his magic would be dispersed there where it would be harmless.

Oh well that's even dumber then. Have fun going insane, Aurene!

@narcx.3570 said:

Oh well that's even dumber then. Have fun going insane, Aurene!

You realise that the situation is VASTLY different for Aurene compared to Kralkatorrik, right? What makes you think that she will go insane? In a Lore forum, it would make sense to back up your claims.

@narcx.3570 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@narcx.3570 said:They made it a plot point this chapter that if Kralk died in the Mists, his magic would be dispersed there where it would be harmless.

Aurene's not likely to go insane because "the magics do not conflict" in her like they did inside Kralkatorrik and the other Elder Dragons.

She could also just hold onto the death, etc. magic until a replacement is found and she could no doubt give them up then, since she's not driving to constantly consume magic either. Or just give it up now instead of taking it in - IF she even took the magics in the first place. As far as we know, she only took in Kralkatorrik's magic and not the magic he asborbed from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar. Though doing so would be a bad move since there's already a ton of magic in the world and doing so leaves that magic open for other Elder Dragons to consume at their leisure.

@narcx.3570 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@narcx.3570 said:They made it a plot point this chapter that if Kralk died in the Mists, his magic would be dispersed there where it would be harmless.

Unless Aurene was 10,000 years old, she'll be fine. Age can do terrible things to a creature.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

I really believe that Mord awaken before Zhaitan only because the state of the Maguuma wouldn't look like that if he had awaken last. In Mord's awaken state, he's creating minions -- the Sylvaris.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

Mord awoke at the end of S1. We even get to see it via cutscene and hear its roar on awakening across the land. It was literally the point of S1.

I’m not sure what you mean about the state of maguima. It was a normal jungle until he awoke and during S2 he was beginning his corruption. By the time HoT rolled around, he was able to turn most of the nearby Sylvari who weren’t strong enough to resist as he tore the pact down to wreck the place. All the vines, monsters etc were built up through S2. These events took place over many months-plenty of time to get started

Zhaitan appeared decades before (see Sea of Sorrows)

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

The Maguuma Jungle didn't look like that in GW1. It has grown at least three times its GW1 size. Mord is awake but inactive, probably feasting on a ley line, only when Scarlett jolt him that he became active.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

He was awakened. The growth of the jungle can be attributed to many things

• artistic licence. Very little from gw1 looks the same today because they’ve wanted to use the gw2 engine to its fullest with the 3D environment

• the movement of the world documents many geographical changes wrought largely by the Dragons. Maguuma esp was affected by the climate change. Remember the rising of Orr alone caused catastrophic alterations to the landscape. There are now deserts where none were before and more verdant areas and volcanic areas.

Mord was asleep but in the verge of awakening. We saw from Jormag and Prinordus that minions and lieutenants were active prior to the rise of their Master and that they herald the awakening. Scarlet was the herald to awaken him. He was not merely inactive. This isn’t a speculative point, it is the actual clear narrative.

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

• artistic licence. Very little from gw1 looks the same today because they’ve wanted to use the gw2 engine to its fullest with the 3D environment

• the movement of the world documents many geographical changes wrought largely by the Dragons. Maguuma esp was affected by the climate change. Remember the rising of Orr alone caused catastrophic alterations to the landscape. There are now deserts where none were before and more verdant areas and volcanic areas.

Yes part of that narrative is that Mord was controlling Scarlett. How is that possible if he's asleep?

Also the fact that the Sylvaris are Mord's minions should not have existed if Mord is not awake.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

• artistic licence. Very little from gw1 looks the same today because they’ve wanted to use the gw2 engine to its fullest with the 3D environment

• the movement of the world documents many geographical changes wrought largely by the Dragons. Maguuma esp was affected by the climate change. Remember the rising of Orr alone caused catastrophic alterations to the landscape. There are now deserts where none were before and more verdant areas and volcanic areas.

As I said, Elder Dragons are still able to influence in their sleeping state and Mordremoth had power over the mind domain.

For him to be inactive he would first have had to have awoken earlier. Inactive is still awake, just not really doing anything outside of their territory. Mord needed a herald to awake and used what little influence he had in his pre awakening state to control a vulnerable host and get them to power him up to awaken.

Dragons don’t just awaken and go inactive. They awaken and go on a rampage to up their power and asset control fast. No such occurrence happened prior to the events of S1.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Yes part of that narrative is that Mord was controlling Scarlett. How is that possible if he's asleep?

Also the fact that the Sylvaris are Mord's minions should not have existed if Mord is not awake.

Mordremoth wasn't awake at the time of Scarlet. His mind was connected to the Dream of Dreams and he utilised that connection to give Scarlet nightmares. He can do that while still asleep as his power over mind gives him some form of control over the Dream of Dreams and can alter the Wyld Hunts of Sylvari to suit his needs

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

Mordremoth didn't create the Maguuma Jungle. That's why the whole "Mordremoth is the jungle" thing is a completely false misnomer.

Minions can also be made while the Elder Dragon is asleep, so long as their Herald (a dragon champion who's role is to create minions and gather magic to wake up the Elder Dragon) is awake. But in the case of the Pale Tree, there was a cave of seemingly purified mordrem and mordrem seeds which didn't go into hibernation (or had woken up by GW1's time) and that's where the seed came from.

For example, Svanir was an icebrood who existed while Jormag slept, Glint was around and active while Kralkatorrik slept, the Giganticus Lupicus in Arah explorable is a risen from the previous dragonrise, and the Great Destroyer created a massive army while Primordus slept.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Yes part of that narrative is that Mord was controlling Scarlett. How is that possible if he's asleep?

Do you not dream? Just because one sleeps, does not mean their mind is inactive and mute. If the human brain is capable of plenty of brain activity during REM sleep, think what an Elder Dragon can do when nudged while asleep, let alone what the Elder Mind Dragon can do.

They're not normal people, and there's plenty of fiction, both fantasy and sci-fi, as well as ancient myths where normal humans go to sleep in order to create a telepathic connection with another being.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

I... disagree. This is the GW1 map. And here's the GW2 map. It's a bit hard to tell through all of the visual clutter on the GW2 map, but the areas that are actually green are pretty much the same. The borders shifted around, but if anything, the jungle's actually a bit smaller in GW2 (which is what was originally presented- we were told much of the Maguuma had dried up- but they backtracked on that angle for HoT.)

It's true that the areas our characters are allowed to tromp around in are much larger, but that's not unusual for GW1. It was normal for there to be (sometimes extensive) areas of a region we never saw, with the working assumption that it was just more of the same.