Damage while invuln and overloaded skills; Hopes for the upcoming balance change.

Not talking about anything everyone isn't aware of but I'm bored so here we go.

I'll start by saying I don't think there is anything wrong about doing damage while invuln as long as it's on a proportionally long cooldown. Some of the biggest culprits I can think of are things like fire weaver, condi mirage, and s/p theif. Can these be outplayed? Yes. Are they healthy for a PvP environment though? I don't think they are. Fire weaver can pulse a lot of burns while evading and this combo is on a very short cooldown. Condi mirage can load you up with condi while dodging not to mention making their clones invuln too. They also have access to mirage mirrors for even more invuln+damage up time. S/P theif wouldn't be all that bad if it wasn't for how often it can use pistol whip with very little risk. I'll go ahead and suggest some changes though it may not make sense without knowing how they are going to do the big boi balance update soon.

Weaver: Make Primordial Stance a single use skill with a 30 second cooldown instead of charges on 20 second. This skill is strong paired with evades/invuln because it doesn't require you to do anything except be near your opponent and can affect 5 people. This can be powerful so the CD should reflect that.

Mirage: Make ambush attacks act like a 5th shatter and destroy your clones after the attack finishes. If you are going to apply pressure when invuln there needs to be some sort of trade off. You either dodge, take no damage, save your clones or you dodge, take no damage, apply pressure and lose your clones.

S/P theif: For pistol whip keep the damage and cast time the same but double the amount of hits (of course lowering the damage per hit to keep the damage relatively the same). This will make it weaker to retaliation. Also, remove either the stun or the evade frames. You're usually going in on some who is stunned/immob ect and have plenty of other defensive tools, this does not need evade frames AND a stun. Plus if you are doing more smaller damage hits you wont lose as much damage canceling it early if you need to.

Some skills I have issue with but are not necessarily broken:

Ranger: GS4, this skill is overloaded in comparison to other blocks. For instance, warrior shield 5 block is 3 seconds, 20 second cooldown while traited. Ranger GS4 is also 3 second block, 15 second cooldown while *untraited (12 second traited) with a built in follow up CC. Remove the follow up CC and make it root you. Ranger already has a ton of mobility, there needs to be some kind of drawback to having such a low cooldown block. The CC is just unnecessary.

Revenant: My personal qualm is surge of the mists, remove the evade. It's strong with just the knockback alone. If they miss the knockback at least let them be punished for it. Revenant has very few openings (when played correctly) and should be left open for a moment when missing one of their few harder to hit skills. Also, does phase traversal really need unblockable/quickness/damage boost all built into a blink? It might be a little overloaded.

Im sure there are plenty of more I've failed to mention here so feel free to bring them up. These are just a few I've been thinking about the past couple days that irk me. Hopefully a lot of these problems are addressed in the up coming balance update.

I feel like primordial stance does not need that hard of a nerf it would make the skill so situational that it would be seen as unusable lets not nerf skills into the realm of being unviable or too situational.

While i do agree with what you say there are better ways to go at this without making the skills feel so situationalFor example leaving the cd and charge count alone and lowering the number of pulses to something like 3. The skill can still be used feqently and will still be impactful but not for such extended periods of time that would allow both moments of use when not and when evading.

I personally think that mirage ambush attacks from clones should be a type of shatter in itself and this change could be a good thing but will be taken as a direct nerf to any mirage main and any mesmer or mriage main will 100% not agree that this is a good idea even though it technically is a good idea to put ambush attacks under control.

As for Pistol whip im not sure the evade frames need to be removed but changing the stun to a daze might go a long way allowing people to continue moving even when cc'ed making it less likely that simply pressing 3 again will promise another stun into some form of damage. Balancing this one is tricky because it works on different professions with different levels of success and ease. IT can be something like necro which is almost free farm with pistol whip or something like warrior which has more than enough time and sustain tools to kill a thief who plays that way before it would get downed. I feel like a small nerf in making the Hard stun cc into a weaker hard cc like Daze might be a good start. Let people keep their base walking mobility for more wiggle room in counter playing the skill.

Ranger GS 4 is bluntly over performing and thats a fact i dont think anyone should really deny this as a fact while its not broken its certainly up there with one of the skills i would consider does too much at once for such a short cd.

Rev staff has already been nerfed so many times and this skill is not exactly spammable i dont really personally see an issue with it but thats just me ;PPhase transversal probably falls under the 1 skill doing too many things at once for such a short cd but at the same time it does cost energy to use.... i dont think that these skills are the issues of rev i would argue the boons are more of the problem with rev just generally.

I think the herald heal is also overlooked its one of the few things that basically allows a rev to become immune or fight for a few short moments without fear of losing a damage trade. But again i dont think its something that can really be touched at this point its window is already really small and other healing skills rev has are riding a line of doing the minimum of acceptance in terms of healing skills.

@Zexanima.7851 said:

Revenant: ... Also, does phase traversal really need unblockable/quickness/damage boost all built into a blink? It might be a little overloaded.

ANet kinda brought this upon themselves. Impossible Odds used to offer quickness for the upkeep, but it got changed for what I am assuming PvE reasons in order to increase DPS. They decided to move the quickness to Phase Traversal instead, which yes, honestly makes it an overloaded skill. Now Revs can use both quickness from PT and the secondary strike from IO to chain more damage, or simply use PT for quickness when previously you needed to use both skills for a port and quickness, which was much more energy intensive (upkeep was 10, activation cost was higher too). Although I don't think PT itself needs quickness, I think that quickness is an important component to Shiro's kit and needs to be somewhere. Frankly, I think them making those above-mentioned changes was a big mistake because it dumbs down energy management when doing the +1 ports. Quickness has always been iconic to Shiro and is especially important for synergy with Brutality. Not sure what the solution is tbh, but I do agree that PT has too much loaded into it for one skill.

@ZDragon.3046 said:I feel like primordial stance does not need that hard of a nerf it would make the skill so situational that it would be seen as unusable lets not nerf skills into the realm of being unviable or too situational.

I dont think it would be as bad as you think. It would just require timing instead of just pressing off CD for free burns.

While i do agree with what you say there are better ways to go at this without making the skills feel so situationalFor example leaving the cd and charge count alone and lowering the number of pulses to something like 3. The skill can still be used feqently and will still be impactful but not for such extended periods of time that would allow both moments of use when not and when evading.

I think the frequency is exactly the problem though. There isn't much of a drawback to hitting it off CD as long as you're enganged with the opponent and in fire.

I personally think that mirage ambush attacks from clones should be a type of shatter in itself and this change could be a good thing but will be taken as a direct nerf to any mirage main and any mesmer or mriage main will 100% not agree that this is a good idea even though it technically is a good idea to put ambush attacks under control.

As for Pistol whip im not sure the evade frames need to be removed but changing the stun to a daze might go a long way allowing people to continue moving even when cc'ed making it less likely that simply pressing 3 again will promise another stun into some form of damage. Balancing this one is tricky because it works on different professions with different levels of success and ease. IT can be something like necro which is almost free farm with pistol whip or something like warrior which has more than enough time and sustain tools to kill a thief who plays that way before it would get downed. I feel like a small nerf in making the Hard stun cc into a weaker hard cc like Daze might be a good start. Let people keep their base walking mobility for more wiggle room in counter playing the skill.

I thought about the Daze idea too but they usually sword 2 in which is an immob. Immob+daze might as well be a stun. I think it would be better to give up the CC or the evade.

Ranger GS 4 is bluntly over performing and thats a fact i dont think anyone should really deny this as a fact while its not broken its certainly up there with one of the skills i would consider does too much at once for such a short cd.

Rev staff has already been nerfed so many times and this skill is not exactly spammable i dont really personally see an issue with it but thats just me ;PPhase transversal probably falls under the 1 skill doing too many things at once for such a short cd but at the same time it does cost energy to use.... i dont think that these skills are the issues of rev i would argue the boons are more of the problem with rev just generally.

I don't really think boons are all that big a deal. Warriors stack might better, firebrand has more boons, and then you have elixer holo. It's more their flow of combat, much like weaver. It leaves very few openings while still being able to pressure you . Lots of evades, blocks, CC, blind, ect they can constantly chain together until they wear you down. They need to be able to be punished while doing all this if they miss skill shots or mis time skills.

I think the herald heal is also overlooked its one of the few things that basically allows a rev to become immune or fight for a few short moments without fear of losing a damage trade. But again i dont think its something that can really be touched at this point its window is already really small and other healing skills rev has are riding a line of doing the minimum of acceptance in terms of healing skills.

Herald heal is horrible in a 1v1 senario because when they pop it you just kite/evade/block for 3 seconds and they get no heals or damage but it is a certain full heal + damage window in any fight with +2 enemies. I think at the very least this heal needs to root you though making harder to just walk into AoE or channeled skills for free healz.

No mention of Warrior?

Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:I feel like primordial stance does not need that hard of a nerf it would make the skill so situational that it would be seen as unusable lets not nerf skills into the realm of being unviable or too situational.

While i do agree with what you say there are better ways to go at this without making the skills feel so situationalFor example leaving the cd and charge count alone and lowering the number of pulses to something like 3. The skill can still be used feqently and will still be impactful but not for such extended periods of time that would allow both moments of use when not and when evading.

I still think your suggestion is slightly too hard of change and people would simply stop using the skill because thats not wroth it im not even an ele main but i do play it from time to time and dont feel like that would be worth using in the event it got nerfed that hard. I would rather run a defensive utility or fire signet over that if you nerfed it that hard. Like i said im all for reducing impact but i think there are other ways to do it than a hard nerf like that. I would start with lowering the number of pulses but still allowing the skill to have frequent use. Lower its impact but keep it fun and dont make it too situational to the point is deemed unviable for the majority of fights. If it was a weapon skill i would agree but for a utility from what it is now that change is a bit too hard even with how nuts sword weaver is.

I personally think that mirage ambush attacks from clones should be a type of shatter in itself and this change could be a good thing but will be taken as a direct nerf to any mirage main and any mesmer or mriage main will 100% not agree that this is a good idea even though it technically is a good idea to put ambush attacks under control.

As for Pistol whip im not sure the evade frames need to be removed but changing the stun to a daze might go a long way allowing people to continue moving even when cc'ed making it less likely that simply pressing 3 again will promise another stun into some form of damage. Balancing this one is tricky because it works on different professions with different levels of success and ease. IT can be something like necro which is almost free farm with pistol whip or something like warrior which has more than enough time and sustain tools to kill a thief who plays that way before it would get downed. I feel like a small nerf in making the Hard stun cc into a weaker hard cc like Daze might be a good start. Let people keep their base walking mobility for more wiggle room in counter playing the skill.

yeah but a lot of times the immobilize will vanish just before the stun is applied also what about the cases when the thief is already in melee range and does not have the 2 available to immobilize but they can still press 3 and get the stun cause its range is hit box is bigger than people like to admit. Generally even if the first application acts more like a stun subsequent pistol whip attempts without first returning to their starting point wont have the power of a true stun via immobilize + daze combo which lowers its effectiveness a good bit. I think swapping the stun to a daze would make for a good start thats not a super heavy change.

Ranger GS 4 is bluntly over performing and thats a fact i dont think anyone should really deny this as a fact while its not broken its certainly up there with one of the skills i would consider does too much at once for such a short cd.

Rev staff has already been nerfed so many times and this skill is not exactly spammable i dont really personally see an issue with it but thats just me ;PPhase transversal probably falls under the 1 skill doing too many things at once for such a short cd but at the same time it does cost energy to use.... i dont think that these skills are the issues of rev i would argue the boons are more of the problem with rev just generally.

Boons are a big deal if anything for most professions boons are the biggest problems. Boons have never been nerfed in a mass culling like conditions were some time ago and that in itself is part of a global problem in power creep. Even if warriors are good at might stacking thats fine but everything in general can stand to come down a good bit there by no means should be any professions stacking applications of any boons up to the 30+ second mark at that duration i consider it just having perma boon. There is no excuse why 30s of vigor, regen, protection, fury, etc should be allowed in the game in competitive modes. Even if a profession is good at might stacking self might applications of 15 or 20+ should be limited to very short windows as far as self application goes.

Invulns and evades that also are attacks are an issue but boons are too. Alot of skills or combos that evade while attacking wouldnt hit you as hard if the boons were not so out of control. Thats another way to look at things.

I think the herald heal is also overlooked its one of the few things that basically allows a rev to become immune or fight for a few short moments without fear of losing a damage trade. But again i dont think its something that can really be touched at this point its window is already really small and other healing skills rev has are riding a line of doing the minimum of acceptance in terms of healing skills.

So you would think but you dont always have the reaction time to cancel your attacks or if its used early on when they are already at full hp they just got you to burn your defenses for really nothing if they are good enough they can last till the heal is back up again in a 1v1 situation. Of course people will always try to deny the herald heal when they can but then again several professions also have evasive that do damage which results in healing them anyways lol.

I dont agree with rooting them for the heal though. That seems a bit over punishing especially to be using a healing skill. I dont think any other healing skills in the game do this and i dont agree that one should be enforced too even more so when they dont have the option to swap that healing skill for a different one.

@mortrialus.3062 said:No mention of Warrior?

Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

If you don't let them proc FC and land it for mage bane, they are dead in the water. It also has a very short duration so it's not like you have to wait long before re-engaging. Granted that can be hard mid team fight not to proc. I agree though, might makes right plus something like energy sigil and loss aversion makes for silly amounts of endurance regen. The only thing you have to worry about is their reckless dodge (which has aboslutely no need for unblockable, that needs to be removed if you ask me), other wise it just means they can sustain longer. The difference between the professions you mentioned and warrior is that mirage can burst while evading, daredevil can break roots/land some big damage with evades, and weaver can do the same. Warrior is not really going to beat you to death with wreckless dodging like daredevil bounding dodger or mirage ambush, its supplemental damage. Either way you do make good points but I think as things are warrior has what it needs to survive but if other changes are made they will defiantly have to tone back spellbreakers might generation, maybe from 2 to 1 per second on mage bane essentially halving the endurace/health sustain from it.

@mortrialus.3062 said:No mention of Warrior?

Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

The reason warrior is not mentioned is because its a boon issue not a invlun or evasive thats also doing damage issue.

Technically he is kind of right not to list warrior.The only thing he could list warrior for would bereckless dodge, great-sword 3, and defiance stance at bestOf those 3 things only reckless dodge is an issue as as its an attack that comes right after an evade that is unblockable , and can crit for several thousand damage but then again that damage also goes back to the boon / might issue. (wouldnt hit as hard if not for warriors holding such high stacks of might for long durations)The other two things are the only ways a warrior can be completely resistant to incoming strikes for short windows while also keeping the ability to do damage.

Defiant stance actually already has a pretty long cd i would possibly deem it as fair/ balanced atm considering the other healing options its by far the most risk for reward based heal warrior has tied with blood reckoning

and gs3 is well gs3..... its damage is only high because of the high levels of might otherwise it wouldnt hit nearly as hard in most cases for an attack thats also an evade.

The only thing that really applies is reckless dodge (which could be fixed by removing its ability to critically hit or making it so the damage could be blocked) the other things cant be activated nearly as often mirage ambush attacks can in regards to evades that also deal damage.

The conversation is not just about high evade uptime its about evades that also end or deal damage at the same time and mirage is more famous for that than warrior is.When someone brings up the topic of being able to evade while dealing damage at practically the same time the first things you think of are thief and mirage... not warrior.

Dont get me wrong warrior should possibly be included in this list mostly looking at reckless dodge though anything else is more of a boon related problem because the other things cant be used super frequently.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:No mention of Warrior?

Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

Yeah, there is no reason for reckless dodge to be unblockable, that's just dumb .Tbh reckless dodge should do barely any damage (like 500 max) and be blockable since it's a freebee in strength.

Ambush Attacks already have a "trade off" by design.

Being able to pressure enemies and use damaging combos while evading/blocking/invuln is one of the worst design decisions anet has made. Mirage cloak, holo photon wall, DH shield of courage, daredevil lotus training + uncatchable, warrior reckless dodge... Its only worsened by the other terrible design decision of instant cast aoe damage/sustain like FB mantras, weaver primordial stance + glyph of elemental power, mirage infinite horizon, even scourge shades are pretty bad... I can only hope that the pvp balance patch will do more than number/coefficient adjustments.

You gotta admit though mirage looks impressive. The mirage i saw looked pretty squishy even if it had those evades and vs some classes he/she almost died, mirage doesn't look like its godmode.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:No mention of Warrior?

Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

GS 3, 8 second cooldown.Bull's Charge, 24 second cooldown.Full Counter, ~9 second cooldown.Reckless Dodger, around 4 second cooldown. (If landing your abilities.)

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:No mention of Warrior?

Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:No mention of Warrior?

Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

I like warrior.you dodge? you deal damage.You deal damage? you get might.you get might? you get endurancyou get heal.

Dodge to deliver aoe unblockable attack that heals grants might and endurance, lol.

@AngelLovesFredrik.6741Full counter has 12s cd, not 9.realistically you get 0,75s evade every 8s with gsthen about 1-2s every 12s from counter1s+ every 30s from bullsand with those 3 skills alone warrior is untouchable 30-40% of the time. add in dodges, kiting shield and rampage.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:No mention of Warrior?

Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

Everyone traits Full Counter to 8 and 3/4 cooldown.Yes, it's more than an actual endurance bar on other classes.and Bull's Charge can be up to 2 seconds every 24 seconds (because you run Str and trait it) if you use it outside of melee range.