Stop Capitulating to PvP

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

I think there needs to be an overhaul to the whole of everything, health to damage ratio is way out of hand I think to an extreme, and I am going off GW2s own words. "No race or profession is unequal". We both know that those words are untrue, and by extreme I am referring to the Eles having the lowest health and is supposed to be the highest damage and yet that's not true. And then the Necro not really fitting in. Players wanting Mesmer minions killable when they're manifestations of things. These are just some of the things that are extreme examples.

By rework the whole of everything. Everybody has the same health in the same equivalent gear, damage taken is different depending on armor type and such, and then rework skills to where everything is equal across the board. Then you can get out of the rut of having to use the only viable build to being able to experiment with different builds and not a cookie cutter build that not everyone is going to be proficient in to be able to do the content that they're going to miss out on.

PvE and WvW should be separate from PvP only content, that's what Guildwars used to be. I say WvW too because it's usually story based and the only PvP available to lower levels and up. And that way there is no capitulating to the PvPers that generally only PvP and could care less about what it does to the PvE content that they don't do. And then you add a resilience to WvW that you wouldn't have when you're doing PvE so that those same skills take longer to kill a player. Then the only thing you'd have to change is the resilience and not the skills themselves.

Personally i think that's just a dream there is always going to be some classes in some ways good and others. EG: you already have tempest and guardians with firebrands as top level healers atm and firebrands offer tons of buffs. Best bet is to work on those unique features of other classes if you want t hem to be viable in their own ways such as rangers with the spirit stones and their own. I think some instances there is just no way you are going to get nec to be useful in the same way a mesmer is with its unique buffs such as quickness and alacrity. And eles have a ton of stuff they could be messing with to make them useful such as their auras which are unique only to elementalists.

Even eles agree that auras should be their strong points that make them desired for.

Wouldn't making everyone the same and same dmg kill the game?

That does not mean the meta tight either, just because it may seem impossible to have really close to perfect balance does not mean it is not, I will say in my experience in many mmos they where far more balanced then a few of the more modern mmos like gw2. It seems many times there was maybe 2 or 3 classes with more quite a few more viable builds then others. What should matter is getting at equal as possible otherwise it really is not fun for anyone, you do not throw your hands up and give up and make flavor of the month worse then it already is.

What i mean is you are going to have some classes that are better vs others and pure balance like chess is a false hope. Even world of warcraft has issues with balance.

I'm not saying to throw hands up and give up but rather balance classes in such a way that you need to find tactics to overcome a class that is good versus that kind of thing.

What they should do, is make so no class hard counters another to the point where you get pinned down and destroyed and unable to retaliate, because that is simply not fun.

Playing a ele for instance and getting destroyed by a holosmith with no problem at all, and completely able to pin down the ele is not good if there is no counter for the holo while playing ele.

You'd be wrong to say that you can't beat holo on your ele, though. That is not some kind of universal truth. Holo isn't meta because it auto-wins against your favorite class. It's meta because it's strong in multiple roles in PvP and matches up well against other builds that serve those same functions in the current meta. You can still run a non-meta build and beat them, but since your non-meta build has other disadvantages it will probably be less effective for ranking up than some other options you could choose (even if those options lose 1v1 to holo!). That's how the meta works. It isn't based on 1v1.

For example, here's a duel from yesterday of my Fire Weaver vs. Holosmith. As best I can tell, my opponent is using something similar to this nade holosmith build that is supposed to be really OP for conquest right now and he has "Best of the Best" title, so I expect he probably knows what he's doing. Does this make my build better for conquest? Nope! But it does illustrate the point that you can play builds that can win against meta builds if you want to!

To the OP, your opinions seem based on reading the forums rather than actually playing the game. I think you lack perspective and should see things for yourself rather than buying into random salt taken out of context. As others have tried to explain, they've been using skill splits for years. They still make changes to the way things work that impact both modes (e.g. the recent trait changes to ele), but all of the tweaks to the numbers are split so that PvE can still deal crazy damage while PvP/WvW are kept in line.

[Axl.8924]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

I think there needs to be an overhaul to the whole of everything, health to damage ratio is way out of hand I think to an extreme, and I am going off GW2s own words. "No race or profession is unequal". We both know that those words are untrue, and by extreme I am referring to the Eles having the lowest health and is supposed to be the highest damage and yet that's not true. And then the Necro not really fitting in. Players wanting Mesmer minions killable when they're manifestations of things. These are just some of the things that are extreme examples.

By rework the whole of everything. Everybody has the same health in the same equivalent gear, damage taken is different depending on armor type and such, and then rework skills to where everything is equal across the board. Then you can get out of the rut of having to use the only viable build to being able to experiment with different builds and not a cookie cutter build that not everyone is going to be proficient in to be able to do the content that they're going to miss out on.

PvE and WvW should be separate from PvP only content, that's what Guildwars used to be. I say WvW too because it's usually story based and the only PvP available to lower levels and up. And that way there is no capitulating to the PvPers that generally only PvP and could care less about what it does to the PvE content that they don't do. And then you add a resilience to WvW that you wouldn't have when you're doing PvE so that those same skills take longer to kill a player. Then the only thing you'd have to change is the resilience and not the skills themselves.

Personally i think that's just a dream there is always going to be some classes in some ways good and others. EG: you already have tempest and guardians with firebrands as top level healers atm and firebrands offer tons of buffs. Best bet is to work on those unique features of other classes if you want t hem to be viable in their own ways such as rangers with the spirit stones and their own. I think some instances there is just no way you are going to get nec to be useful in the same way a mesmer is with its unique buffs such as quickness and alacrity. And eles have a ton of stuff they could be messing with to make them useful such as their auras which are unique only to elementalists.

Even eles agree that auras should be their strong points that make them desired for.

Wouldn't making everyone the same and same dmg kill the game?

That does not mean the meta tight either, just because it may seem impossible to have really close to perfect balance does not mean it is not, I will say in my experience in many mmos they where far more balanced then a few of the more modern mmos like gw2. It seems many times there was maybe 2 or 3 classes with more quite a few more viable builds then others. What should matter is getting at equal as possible otherwise it really is not fun for anyone, you do not throw your hands up and give up and make flavor of the month worse then it already is.

What i mean is you are going to have some classes that are better vs others and pure balance like chess is a false hope. Even world of warcraft has issues with balance.

I'm not saying to throw hands up and give up but rather balance classes in such a way that you need to find tactics to overcome a class that is good versus that kind of thing.

What they should do, is make so no class hard counters another to the point where you get pinned down and destroyed and unable to retaliate, because that is simply not fun.

Playing a ele for instance and getting destroyed by a holosmith with no problem at all, and completely able to pin down the ele is not good if there is no counter for the holo while playing ele.

You'd be wrong to say that you can't beat holo on your ele, though. That is not some kind of universal truth. Holo isn't meta because it auto-wins against your favorite class. It's meta because it's strong in multiple roles in PvP and matches up well against other builds that serve those same functions in the current meta. You can still run a non-meta build and beat them, but since your non-meta build has other disadvantages it will probably be less effective for ranking up than some other options you could choose (even if those options lose 1v1 to holo!). That's how the meta works. It isn't based on 1v1.

For example, here's a duel from yesterday of my Fire Weaver vs. Holosmith. As best I can tell, my opponent is using something similar to this nade holosmith build that is supposed to be really OP for conquest right now and he has "Best of the Best" title, so I expect he probably knows what he's doing. Does this make my build better for conquest? Nope! But it does illustrate the point that you can play builds that can win against meta builds if you want to!

To the OP, your opinions seem based on reading the forums rather than actually playing the game. I think you lack perspective and should see things for yourself rather than buying into random salt taken out of context. As others have tried to explain, they've been using skill splits for years. They still make changes to the way things work that impact both modes (e.g. the recent trait changes to ele), but all of the tweaks to the numbers are split so that PvE can still deal crazy damage while PvP/WvW are kept in line.

I never said you couldn't beat a holo.

[Hashberry.4510]

Wasn’t Rev hammer destroyed in all modes due to wvw concerns?

[Ryou.2398]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

I think there needs to be an overhaul to the whole of everything, health to damage ratio is way out of hand I think to an extreme, and I am going off GW2s own words. "No race or profession is unequal". We both know that those words are untrue, and by extreme I am referring to the Eles having the lowest health and is supposed to be the highest damage and yet that's not true. And then the Necro not really fitting in. Players wanting Mesmer minions killable when they're manifestations of things. These are just some of the things that are extreme examples.

By rework the whole of everything. Everybody has the same health in the same equivalent gear, damage taken is different depending on armor type and such, and then rework skills to where everything is equal across the board. Then you can get out of the rut of having to use the only viable build to being able to experiment with different builds and not a cookie cutter build that not everyone is going to be proficient in to be able to do the content that they're going to miss out on.

PvE and WvW should be separate from PvP only content, that's what Guildwars used to be. I say WvW too because it's usually story based and the only PvP available to lower levels and up. And that way there is no capitulating to the PvPers that generally only PvP and could care less about what it does to the PvE content that they don't do. And then you add a resilience to WvW that you wouldn't have when you're doing PvE so that those same skills take longer to kill a player. Then the only thing you'd have to change is the resilience and not the skills themselves.

Personally i think that's just a dream there is always going to be some classes in some ways good and others. EG: you already have tempest and guardians with firebrands as top level healers atm and firebrands offer tons of buffs. Best bet is to work on those unique features of other classes if you want t hem to be viable in their own ways such as rangers with the spirit stones and their own. I think some instances there is just no way you are going to get nec to be useful in the same way a mesmer is with its unique buffs such as quickness and alacrity. And eles have a ton of stuff they could be messing with to make them useful such as their auras which are unique only to elementalists.

Even eles agree that auras should be their strong points that make them desired for.

Wouldn't making everyone the same and same dmg kill the game?

That does not mean the meta tight either, just because it may seem impossible to have really close to perfect balance does not mean it is not, I will say in my experience in many mmos they where far more balanced then a few of the more modern mmos like gw2. It seems many times there was maybe 2 or 3 classes with more quite a few more viable builds then others. What should matter is getting at equal as possible otherwise it really is not fun for anyone, you do not throw your hands up and give up and make flavor of the month worse then it already is.

What i mean is you are going to have some classes that are better vs others and pure balance like chess is a false hope. Even world of warcraft has issues with balance.

I'm not saying to throw hands up and give up but rather balance classes in such a way that you need to find tactics to overcome a class that is good versus that kind of thing.

What they should do, is make so no class hard counters another to the point where you get pinned down and destroyed and unable to retaliate, because that is simply not fun.

Playing a ele for instance and getting destroyed by a holosmith with no problem at all, and completely able to pin down the ele is not good if there is no counter for the holo while playing ele.

I played wow many years ago and as someone was there there near the beggening is they balance the game in certain ways on purpose to get people to reroll, maybe not anymore as its been a while since I gave it another whirl, my point is in most modern mmos its pretty terrible and 90 percent of the time its greed. But I hear what your saying and appreciate you not getting defensive about it, you seem pretty objective which is really great for conversations like this. Seems they could change some core things about the game to create better balance, I have seem plenty of good ideas in these forums about them.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@DonNee.5128 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@DonNee.5128 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"ZipTaw.9841" said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

Can you give examples? I am not aware of any meta PvE build that was nerfed due to PvP.

ofc so many skills, traits, mechanics have changed because of pvpnot as much as the other way around, but still plentlye.g. scourge shade instant cast, clunckiness for axe ambush or straight up deletion of traits like CI are all because of pvp

CI is not a PvE valid trait, and never was. Axe ambush has never changed as far as I am aware and currently has no issues PvE (axe does in sPvP due to damage split). Mirage as condi dps is fully viable in PvE.

I don’t remember shade change in full details, but scourge was never viable in group PvE due to lack of damage. Changing the shade mechanic has nothing to do with that.

Point is, the build viability for condi mirage and for scourge did not change in PvE based on these changes.

viability is more open for interpretation in pve, there is even topics about removing this for pve too - i agree not the strongest but still was because of pvp even people disliked itas for axe ambushes, you now need to face your target which is very annoying in open world pve - as a result i think most mirages uses staff now in ow pvenot saying pvp shifts pve in this game but for sure it has unnecessary impact on it

you can throw axes in front of you and they will snap to targets behind you

EDIT If you thtow axes from this range from the golems in front of you ( away from the golem ) all 3 will still hit them.

EDIT 2, I ment directly away from the golem, axe seeking is very forgiving when it comes to range.