bravan.3876

This reminds me of the current level of skill needed to play mesmer (Except chronomancer, you need to play 25 hours a day to be viable in gold) yeah...12 hrs practice per day to learn how to play a mesmer....that must be the reason behind the huge number of mesmer main post HoT....Possibly I would agree with the OP about the removal of IH and balancing of retargeting.......that would be a good startJust that removing IH makes Mirage EASIER to play (when ambushes are designed well at least) and NOT harder. Also the ambush/IH mechanic is what generates the inherent costs/ trade off of the spec by creating opportunity costs/ harder decision making in dodge management in terms of what to use dodges for. With well designed ambushes (how it is supposed to be and need to be reworked for condi ambushes similar to gs/sword ambush design) it is exactly what balance out the strong instant MC mechanic. Well designed utility/effect-ambushes (and not dmg as main purpose) create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive for well timed and different timed from pure defensive dodges hits of ambush effect rewards (like a daze for example) for active and tactical outplays of the opponent and the need/incentive to combo those ambushes with other skills like shatter and weapons (for example selfbuff and target debuff to prepare a shatterburst combo with ambushes on gs or sword). That adds higher skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity to the spec. The abiltiy to use ambushes (also from clones what adds even more different active and tactical outplay moves and even more combopotential to the spec) to hit the ambush effects to outplay opponents in a tactical manner differently timed from pure defensive dodges is elementar to balance out MC, it also adds a different to core playstyle and creates a higher skill cap. All ofc ONLY when ambushes are designed well (comparable to sword/gs, that is why i say condi ambushes need a rework) and when they are balanced in how strong the ambush reward from the Mesmers own ambushes and from the clone ambushes are. The problem from current condi ambush design is, that they do not create any need to dodge pure offensive, their main purpose is dmg and the reward from clone ambushes in terms of how much condi dmg they apply was enough to only dodge pure defensive and let clones do all the work as a passive side effect during the Mesmer could play defensive all the time. Also shattering was not rewarded on Condimirage because clones did more dmg with ambushes and normal autopattacks as when they get shattered. Means condi ambushes need to get an utility/effect reward as main purpose just like it is on power weapons and not any op dmg application from clones. This can easy be fine adjusted (in terms of effect duration, and amount of dmg) for each weapon and each ambush of Mesmer and clones individually. That is the beauty of the spec, that is has that many ways of fine adjusting. That makes the nonsense one dodge sledge hammer nerf look even more stupid. For the spec to work in that balanced trade offed and high skill ceiling way it is essential, that Mirage gets 2 dodges back, otherwise pure offensive dodges for active and tactical and for that skilled outplay moves with ambushes (from Mesmer and clones) are simply impossible because the dodge resource is overnerfed. A Mirage simply cannot dodge pure offensive anymore in most cases, because with only one dodge it would be a freekill after that.Means all ambush effects (from Mesmer itself and from clones) become a pure passive side effect from pure defensive dodging when they need to avoid an attack, what kills all tactical and active uses of the spec mechanic (ambushes/IH) and for that kills a tons of skill ceiling. Not to mention that only one dodge also leads into a more spammy on cd and with that less mindful and tactical timed dodge management in general (means Mirage is double dumbed down by the one dodge change because it contradicts the general, gamewide dodge mechanic and the Mirage specific ambush mechanic to do more with its dodges than only avoiding attacks. That is why Daredevil, as the other spec build around strong dodges, has more evades not less, what is ofc also not ideal, because that reduces opportunity costs in dodge management for Daredevils and also makes dodges spammable just for different reasons then it does it on one dodge Mirage). It is rly that simply, and that is why i will never get, why that is so hard to understand for most ppl, even for Mesmer mains themself. I at least get the theory behind that high IQ spec, also when i am not rly talented enough to play a high skilled IH Powermirage near its maximum skill cap. Time to turn IH Condimirage into an equally skilled and balanced playstyle by reworking and then fine adjusting condiambushes based on 2 dodges and not dumbing the whole traitline down with a nonsense sledge hammer nerf showing insane lack of spec knowledge and understanding from Anets side.

Maybe we should start an auction. We only need to get some balance devs on the table, or better Helio maybe? :joy:

How about we meet at 40s cd for all (IA, Decoy and SoM)? xD @"ArlAlt.1630" said:The fact that we have the lootbox model as far as BLC content goes, says you're wrong. Again, I invite you to reconsider your stance based on well known and currently adopted practices in the game.Unless you're the "not named player" that sells accounts and account boosts for $$ with ANET's Silent "go get some" policy. Can you explain what you mean with lootbox model and BLC content? And how that proves that the randomness from IA is a skillful one? Never heard about BLC content and what that means.If loot box model means the random proc luck on crits and other effects have x% chance to proc than yes, the game has little random parts you cannot avoid on computer generated fictive games like GW2, but that is a minor part of the game you barely can delete. At least GW2 does not generate blinds and 100% dmg absorbtion random based on gear stats proc chance anymore, that would be even more horrible xD And ofc those randomness does delete skill ceiling from GW2 or are you happy when you lose a fight only because your opponent has an insane crit luck at an insane lucky good moment? This win was not based on skill then. Luckily this doesn't happen that often. The skillbased part in GW2 clearly overshines the skill ceiling reducing random lucky proc part of the game by far. The overall gameplay consept from GW2 is as much as possible to be about clearly defined opponents moves enabling reactive tactical moves as response. Comparable more to chess than to poker. And i think you cannot deny that adding any randomness to chess would kill skill ceiling. And that is what randomness does in GW2 too. Some ramdomness you cannot rly avoid (like crit and critchance mechanic) but IA adds an unnecessary and avoidable randomness that just kills skill ceiling as much as every other rdm aspect of the game. That is why GW2 has lower skill ceiling than chess. (while poker with the bluffing mechanic is a different story and doesn't fit as example because of that bluff mechanic. The bluff mechanic you can compare to GW2 stuff like stow-cancel skill casts to bait defensive cds from the opponent. There it would be a fitting example and ofc those bluff stuff is clearly skilled and includes mind gaming). Imaginary thumb up for the Helisomething part xD It is actually shocking that those players, who should be perma banned, outlawed and dishonored for account sharing, PvP reward trading etc., have free out of jail cards and any influence on balance decisions because they are friend with some devs. Even more cringe when those players than brag in whispers about how they will make devs nerf Mesmer even more. Screenshots were shown. Such inbree... nepotism should not exist at all. Nothing proven ofc, maybe Helisomething only wanted to look more important than he actually is but when looking at whole context i have no hard time to believe that he was serious.

Yes i don't mind to rework Mirage Advantage more into something comparable to Thief's shadowstep but lose the retargeting for that. For axe i could see what Countless is suggesting: Remove the retargeting and the dodge from axe 3 and give a shorter 1/2s dodge to axe 2 with higher cd on the ammo skills. I disagree to IA. Compare it to Decoy what has 45 or even 50s cd now? IA is a max range teleport +evade + retargeting + high dmg from ambushes (even from clones without even IH traited). Why it has 10-15s less cd than Decoy what offers not half as much reward? Also as mentioned the randomness is rly unhealthy for the Mesmer itself and for the opponent and unhealthy for every skillful encounter because it deletes the ability of mind gaming and active counterplay from both parts (the Mesmer itself and the opponent). But tbh IA rework is not my main request, more important is to keep IH a viable and more active trait choice and keep the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity this trait (and ambushes) add to the spec and rework (condi ambushes to more utility based ambushes instead only being about dmg) and fine adjust Mesmers own ambushes just as clone ambushes on each weapon separately to a balanced post patch lvl based on 2 dodges.

Suddenly no problem anymore with someone saying the retargeting mechanic is stupid and should get removed? Rofl I for one would rather see stealth go on Mesmer than detarget. Detarget plays much more into the subterfuge theme of the class than stealth does.Mind you I am biased in that regard as I have been playing stealthless builds for over a year now. The problem is, that retargeting in particular when combined with random position change has way less counterplay (zero to be exact) and kills every possibility for mind gaming (on both Mesmers and opponents side) than stealth. When the target is stealthing i still can anticipate his movement direction, i still can keep track of the Mesmer amoung clones when tracking who is coming out of stealth. Add to that, that most retargeting skills also include a dodge means those skills are just some defensive monsterskills with zero counterplay. While the randomness of the position change can even be bad for the Mesmer itself. IA even adds a lot of offensive power to the defensive monster abilities and is just broken as hell in my opinion and still has too short cd compared to how much stronger it is than Decoy for example. But i would just remove the retargeting mechanic completely. In particular with GW2 slow and bugging targeting it is a pain to fight against even when you have no problem to identify the real mesmer very fast after that. That is not entirely true, the counterplay is that it's a coin toss. Ask yourself this: How many times have you used IA only to be placed in an even worse position than you initially were, in the middle of an AoE bomb or something along the line? I'ts literally a coin toss. And to me that's a perfect example of a coin toss. You win the coin toss, you get better position, you lose it, you just blew a 35 sec CD to get a .75 secs evade frames and an ambush attack if you don't get interrupted or melted by the carpet bomb. IA is a perfect example of a well balanced skill that has its counterplay included in the mechanic. I mentioned that the randomness also can be bad for the Mesmer but that doesn't change the fact that there is no skill ceiling and active mind gaming involved from the Mesmer, just as there is no possibility to active counterplay the randomness from the opponent. This is where you and I disagree. Having to make the conscious decision to roll the dice in hope for a beneficial position is a text book definition of skill ceiling. The timing of rolling said dice, that is. GW2 and a lot of other games follow the good old Texas Hold 'Em model of playing the odds. Playing the odds is a factor of skill on its own. Didn't know that gambling is considered skillful. I will tell my gf next time how i outskilled her when we use a dice to decide who has to stand up and get new chips in the empty bowl and me getting the higher number of pips xD I think we also should suggest to add some random position changes to chess pieces to higher the skill cap of that noobish low skill game. Now, now... You're just trying to project your own negative opinion of gambling onto the masses. Gambling in itself isn't bad, it's people addicted to it that make it so. If you think Poker is not a game of skill, I invite you to play a few nights with me and my buds on Poker night. Poker takes A LOT of skill. Anyone claiming otherwise, obviously doesn't understand how the game is played. P.S. I'm also inviting you to give up your stance in that SPECIFIC regard as you're not going to get any followers with it. Think of it as you wish. I'm doing you a favor here.Poker just as any card game ofc have elements of skill but the gamling part, the part of having luck or no luck with getting good or bad cards is not what adds skill ceiling. Just as the randomness on IA doesn't add any skill ceiling, it even lowers it while a mindful cd use or a well made bluff ofc still has its own skill involved. Also poker still enables mind gaming from the bluffing aspect. IA doesn't rly have that aspect, it is more comparable to adding random position changes to chess pieces what ofc will kill any skill ceiling of the chess game. Neither GW2 nor chess are made about playing around luck or no luck. They are build around making tactical decision in reaction of clearly defined opponent moves (including mind gaming and expectations of future tactical moves of opponents in reaction of your own moves based on experiences and psychological and sociological knowledge about human behavior and human decision making). Poker is not a fitting example here. Chess is a better one.

@Curunen.8729 That it fits with the Mirage theme is true but doesn't change that it is an unhealthy mechanic and the randomness kills all skill ceiling and all mind game possibilities from the Mesmer itself and his opponent. With a slow and bugging targeting sytems we have in GW2 it is even more unhealthy. Also it is not rly needed to define Mirage as a different spec form core with different playstyle. The amsbush mechanic, MC and IH do that job already. It makes more sense to ask for IH becoming a minor trait and balance GM traits around it when you want a more defined and different from core Mirage spec. That at least will add skill ceiling instead lowering it. I ofc agree that abuse of stealth from PU is also unhealthy

deal as long as u remove undodgable slick shoes cause its also instant cast :) The activation is instant the effect meanwhile is not instant. The Engi needs to move through me to affect me with that. But aside from slick shoes i think there is in general too much unblockable and undodgeable hard cc in the game atm.

Suddenly no problem anymore with someone saying the retargeting mechanic is stupid and should get removed? Rofl I for one would rather see stealth go on Mesmer than detarget. Detarget plays much more into the subterfuge theme of the class than stealth does.Mind you I am biased in that regard as I have been playing stealthless builds for over a year now. The problem is, that retargeting in particular when combined with random position change has way less counterplay (zero to be exact) and kills every possibility for mind gaming (on both Mesmers and opponents side) than stealth. When the target is stealthing i still can anticipate his movement direction, i still can keep track of the Mesmer amoung clones when tracking who is coming out of stealth. Add to that, that most retargeting skills also include a dodge means those skills are just some defensive monsterskills with zero counterplay. While the randomness of the position change can even be bad for the Mesmer itself. IA even adds a lot of offensive power to the defensive monster abilities and is just broken as hell in my opinion and still has too short cd compared to how much stronger it is than Decoy for example. But i would just remove the retargeting mechanic completely. In particular with GW2 slow and bugging targeting it is a pain to fight against even when you have no problem to identify the real mesmer very fast after that. That is not entirely true, the counterplay is that it's a coin toss. Ask yourself this: How many times have you used IA only to be placed in an even worse position than you initially were, in the middle of an AoE bomb or something along the line? I'ts literally a coin toss. And to me that's a perfect example of a coin toss. You win the coin toss, you get better position, you lose it, you just blew a 35 sec CD to get a .75 secs evade frames and an ambush attack if you don't get interrupted or melted by the carpet bomb. IA is a perfect example of a well balanced skill that has its counterplay included in the mechanic. I mentioned that the randomness also can be bad for the Mesmer but that doesn't change the fact that there is no skill ceiling and active mind gaming involved from the Mesmer, just as there is no possibility to active counterplay the randomness from the opponent. This is where you and I disagree. Having to make the conscious decision to roll the dice in hope for a beneficial position is a text book definition of skill ceiling. The timing of rolling said dice, that is. GW2 and a lot of other games follow the good old Texas Hold 'Em model of playing the odds. Playing the odds is a factor of skill on its own.Didn't know that gambling is considered skillful. I will tell my gf next time how i outskilled her when we use a dice to decide who has to stand up and get new chips in the empty bowl and me getting the higher number of pips xD I think we also should suggest to add some random position changes to chess pieces to higher the skill cap of that noobish low skill game.

Suddenly no problem anymore with someone saying the retargeting mechanic is stupid and should get removed? Rofl I for one would rather see stealth go on Mesmer than detarget. Detarget plays much more into the subterfuge theme of the class than stealth does.Mind you I am biased in that regard as I have been playing stealthless builds for over a year now. The problem is, that retargeting in particular when combined with random position change has way less counterplay (zero to be exact) and kills every possibility for mind gaming (on both Mesmers and opponents side) than stealth. When the target is stealthing i still can anticipate his movement direction, i still can keep track of the Mesmer amoung clones when tracking who is coming out of stealth. Add to that, that most retargeting skills also include a dodge means those skills are just some defensive monsterskills with zero counterplay. While the randomness of the position change can even be bad for the Mesmer itself. IA even adds a lot of offensive power to the defensive monster abilities and is just broken as hell in my opinion and still has too short cd compared to how much stronger it is than Decoy for example. But i would just remove the retargeting mechanic completely. In particular with GW2 slow and bugging targeting it is a pain to fight against even when you have no problem to identify the real mesmer very fast after that. I made the video under the assumption that mesmer is never getting their 2nd dodge back based on anet's reluctance of reverting changes in the past, no matter how ill logic said change was. That being said, I still think IH should be removed and replaced with another trait in its place. It kinda lost its purpose imo when they nerfed almost every single ambush ability, I'd just rather see something else at this point. Not to mention that A-net said before that the dodge mechanic is so hard baked into the trait itself that removing the dodge from IH would take more time than removing and redesigning it from the ground up. What you mean with removing the dodge from IH? There is no need to make the clones not dodge when using IH. They even need to be able to dodge otherwise no clone would live long enough to finish their ambush attack. It is not even the ambushes being overnerfed. If they would have just reworked the condi ambushes to be more about effects/ utility need to be differently timed to pure defenisve dodges we would not have any need to reduce dodges to 1. The problem is that they never rly reworked or nerfs the problematic condi ambushes directly. They nerfed the dodges to one, they overnerfed Sharper Images to compensate for ambush dmg and avoid scepter ambush to overperform with that trait (instead just reworking scepter into a one hit skill not stacking bleed like crazy with each ambush use) etc. You ask for IP reversion (even though you know Anet is not flexible with admitting and reverting mistakes) and you should ask for adding the second dodge back for the same reasons: Both changes contradict either basic Mesmer or basic elite spec mechanics heavily and dumbing down the elite specs, they delete skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity instead increasing them. In particular ambushes and IH are the things adding skill ceiling the most (when ambushes are desinged well at least) and also define Mirage as a spec with different playstyle to core the most. Overnerfing it into uselessness is just contrary to the plan of turning Mirage into a balanced and less noobfriendly, less passive condi clone dmg spam spec. Deleting IH will kill a lot of potential skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from Mirage. It would be a shame. And for that reasons the community (including Mesmer haters btw who want a less noobfriedly spec) should fight against this stupid change as long and as hard as needed until Anet has no choice anymore and need to admit and revert this nonsense. Means just as hard as fighting vs the IP deletion on Chrono. Because it is the same lvl of spec mechanic destruction and overnerf and nonsenseness. When it comes to ambush, personally I'd rather see IH removed and them buffing ambush attacks across the board to make them feel impactful on just you, than having a bunch of illusions ambush like monkeys with dodge immunity, But that way you turn ambushes into a pure passive side effect, a pure passive dmg multiplier on dodge what kills a lot of skill ceiling. A Mirage cannot work active with his own ambushes anymore. He only can hope that the moment he needs to dodge defensive is also a good moment for an ambush use. That includes zero possibility to make active and tactical plays with ambushes. It will kill a lot of skill ceiling. Thinking IH is passive and the issue, is a completely wrong view on the mechanic. Quite the opposite is true. IH can add a lot of activity and tactical skill ceiling when ambushes are designed well. You already can see this on IH Powermirage (with gs, sword). So your suggestion rly is the wrong way. Also: Most clone ambushes have tons of counterplay, they have decent casttime, decent animations, can be outmoved and side stepped. The dodge duration doesn't even cover the whole ambush casttime. There is no balance issue at all from IH and clone ambushes per se. The only issue was/ still is, is that condi ambushes were/still are too passive designed (and only condi ambushes, because they are only about pure dmg application and had that much condi dmg on clones that pure defensive dodging for ez and braindead passive condi dmg application was enough. Meanwhile on power (gs and sword) the ambushes from Mesmer and clones are more about utilties than only pure dmg. Those utilities create the need and incentive for active uses of ambushes also from clones and the need to time them differently from pure defensive dodges, turn them into more than a pure passive side effect from avoiding an attack. They add the need to combo ambushes for stronger shattercombos and to make pure offensive dodges to hit a well timed ambush effect like a daze for example or make a well timed selfbuff or target debuff move with ambushes. Nothing of that was giving on condi ambushes. Means the only issue that leads into passive clones spamming ambushes like monkeys while the Mesmer does not even need to think about it and can play pure defensive while applying tons of passive clone condi dmg was only a problem you had on Condimirage duo to wrong designed condi ambushes. Not because of IH itself. What you want to do is making the whole ambush mechanic totally passive and untactical. It kills every ability to work with ambushes active and tactical for skillful outplay moves and skillful combos. Actually funny, the skill ceiling from Powermirage ambush/ IH mechanic is so high and also high IQ that barely anyone even undertsands it correct, not to mention barely anyone is able to play that mechanic near its maximum potential and utilize the IH and general ambush mechanic in a more active and tactical way on the 2 power ambushes providing the high skill ceiling by good ambush design. With that argumentation you need to delete every trait on every class then which improves/ strengthen a specific type of skills. You need to remove every weapon specific trait gives more dmg or lower cd to specific weaponsskills or traits that gives more dmg or other effects to shatters etc. because each of those traits will lead to a weaker basic untraited skill because of the potential buff it can get from a trait. So that argument is invalid. Buffing specific skills is a legitim type of traits. And in case of IH it even is one with the highest possible skill ceiling. While traits like +15% dmg to shatters do not create any additional need for the player to tactical work with the improved skill or think about the passive dmg multiplier trait at all. Passive dmg multiplier affect the player behavior not rly and create no need to work with them in a tactical way. And you want to turn IH into such a pure passive side effect on defensive dodges. That is a dumb down, an insane dumb down of the spec.

Suddenly no problem anymore with someone saying the retargeting mechanic is stupid and should get removed? Rofl I for one would rather see stealth go on Mesmer than detarget. Detarget plays much more into the subterfuge theme of the class than stealth does.Mind you I am biased in that regard as I have been playing stealthless builds for over a year now. The problem is, that retargeting in particular when combined with random position change has way less counterplay (zero to be exact) and kills every possibility for mind gaming (on both Mesmers and opponents side) than stealth. When the target is stealthing i still can anticipate his movement direction, i still can keep track of the Mesmer amoung clones when tracking who is coming out of stealth. Add to that, that most retargeting skills also include a dodge means those skills are just some defensive monsterskills with zero counterplay. While the randomness of the position change can even be bad for the Mesmer itself. IA even adds a lot of offensive power to the defensive monster abilities and is just broken as hell in my opinion and still has too short cd compared to how much stronger it is than Decoy for example. But i would just remove the retargeting mechanic completely. In particular with GW2 slow and bugging targeting it is a pain to fight against even when you have no problem to identify the real mesmer very fast after that. I made the video under the assumption that mesmer is never getting their 2nd dodge back based on anet's reluctance of reverting changes in the past, no matter how ill logic said change was. That being said, I still think IH should be removed and replaced with another trait in its place. It kinda lost its purpose imo when they nerfed almost every single ambush ability, I'd just rather see something else at this point. Not to mention that A-net said before that the dodge mechanic is so hard baked into the trait itself that removing the dodge from IH would take more time than removing and redesigning it from the ground up.What you mean with removing the dodge from IH? There is no need to make the clones not dodge when using IH. They even need to be able to dodge otherwise no clone would live long enough to finish their ambush attack. It is not even the ambushes being overnerfed (just looking at them, they are still strong by themself, just only having one dodge makes them too weak combined with other nerfs to core traits like Sharper Images had good synergy with some ambushes).If they would have just reworked the condi ambushes to be more about effects/ utility need to be differently timed to pure defenisve dodges we would not have any need to reduce dodges to 1. The problem is that they never rly reworked or nerfs the problematic condi ambushes directly. They nerfed the dodges to one, they overnerfed Sharper Images to compensate for ambush dmg and avoid scepter ambush to overperform with that trait (instead just reworking scepter into a one hit skill not stacking bleed like crazy with each ambush use) etc. The only time they touched an ambush directly was for staff (but there they didn't even fine adjusted the clone ambush differently from the Mesmers own ambush). You ask for IP reversion (even though you know Anet is not flexible with admitting and reverting mistakes) and you should ask for adding the second dodge back for the same reasons: Both changes contradict either basic Mesmer or basic elite spec mechanics heavily and dumbing down the elite specs, they delete skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity instead increasing them. In particular ambushes and IH are the things adding skill ceiling the most (when ambushes are desinged well at least) and also define Mirage as a spec with different playstyle to core the most. Overnerfing it into uselessness is just contrary to the plan of turning Mirage into a balanced and less noobfriendly, less passive condi clone dmg spam spec. Deleting IH will kill a lot of potential skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from Mirage. It would be a shame. And for that reasons the community (including Mesmer haters btw who want a less noobfriedly spec) should fight against this stupid change as long and as hard as needed until Anet has no choice anymore and need to admit and revert this nonsense. Means just as hard as fighting vs the IP deletion on Chrono. Because it is the same lvl of spec mechanic destruction and overnerf and nonsenseness.

Suddenly no problem anymore with someone saying the retargeting mechanic is stupid and should get removed? Rofl I for one would rather see stealth go on Mesmer than detarget. Detarget plays much more into the subterfuge theme of the class than stealth does.Mind you I am biased in that regard as I have been playing stealthless builds for over a year now. The problem is, that retargeting in particular when combined with random position change has way less counterplay (zero to be exact) and kills every possibility for mind gaming (on both Mesmers and opponents side) than stealth. When the target is stealthing i still can anticipate his movement direction, i still can keep track of the Mesmer amoung clones when tracking who is coming out of stealth. Add to that, that most retargeting skills also include a dodge means those skills are just some defensive monsterskills with zero counterplay. While the randomness of the position change can even be bad for the Mesmer itself. IA even adds a lot of offensive power to the defensive monster abilities and is just broken as hell in my opinion and still has too short cd compared to how much stronger it is than Decoy for example. But i would just remove the retargeting mechanic completely. In particular with GW2 slow and bugging targeting it is a pain to fight against even when you have no problem to identify the real mesmer very fast after that. That is not entirely true, the counterplay is that it's a coin toss. Ask yourself this: How many times have you used IA only to be placed in an even worse position than you initially were, in the middle of an AoE bomb or something along the line? I'ts literally a coin toss. And to me that's a perfect example of a coin toss. You win the coin toss, you get better position, you lose it, you just blew a 35 sec CD to get a .75 secs evade frames and an ambush attack if you don't get interrupted or melted by the carpet bomb. IA is a perfect example of a well balanced skill that has its counterplay included in the mechanic.I mentioned that the randomness also can be bad for the Mesmer but that doesn't change the fact that there is no skill ceiling and active mind gaming involved from the Mesmer, just as there is no possibility to active counterplay the randomness from the opponent.

IH is fine as it is, clearly the most Mirage defining GM trait with the highest potential to be mostly active (as much as a dodge trait can be active) and tactical with high skill ceiling. Very interesting mechanic should for certain not be deleted or turned into some passive dmg mutliplier as you suggested. In general the ambush mechanic (which gets supported by IH + IH adds even more different combos and active outplay moves compared to core) is what balance out the very strong instant dodge mechanic from MC by creating inherent costs in terms of opportunity costs/ harder decision making in dodge management, adds more and and different combos and tactical outplay moves compared to core and for that includes clearly high skill ceiling. The only thing that needs to be done to apply this higher skill ceiling, higher active rate and opportunity costs to (IH) Condimirage as well, is to rework condi ambushes into something more effect/ utility based comparable to gs and sword ambush design. Something that creates the need and incentive for the player to dodge pure offensive to hit well timed ambush effects on the target for active tactical outplays and to do skillful combos with shatters and other weaponskill (just as it already is on power). Turn condi ambushes away from the pure passive condi dmg spam from clones on pure defensive dodges we still have atm (just that because of the one dodge change IH is overnerfed into uselessness for condi, but the condi ambushes are still wrong designed, the one dodge change balanced around the real issues of the wrong condi ambush design without solving the problems). For the ambush/IH mechanic it also is essential that Mirage gets it second dodge back because no improved utilties with more mirror generation can replace normal dodges, not only in terms of how useful they are defensive but also in terms of how tactical and active you can use those dodges to make active and tactical ambush plays (mesmers own ambush just as clone ambushes). The one dodge change completely contradicts the Mirage mechanic (just as the gamewide dodgemechanic based on 2 dodges for less spammy on cd and more mindful and tactical dodge management) as a spec supposed to do more with its dodges than only avoiding attacks. With only one dodge the ability to make pure offensive tactical dodges for ambush outplays are nearly impossible because the Mirage is more or less a freekill after blowing the one dodge pure offensive. Means the one dodge change deletes all the potential skill ceiling Mirage can have from the ambush/ IH mechanic. It turns ambushes (from Mesmer and clones) into a pure passive side effect from pure defensive dodging and contradicts all skill ceiling and inherent costs of the elite spec and make active and well timed ambush uses for tactical outplays nealr yimpossible. The Mirage can only hope that the moment he need to dodge pure defensive is also a good moment to use the ambush skill after. That is not skillful. Teh oen dodge change is the biggest nonsense change ever happend in the game (aside from removing IP from Chrono). Weird that most ppl (includign Mesmer mains) don't even understand that. Ofc only giving Mirages 2 dodges back would be op in current post patch state, means you have to rework the condi ambushes as mentioned and maybe also need to nerf the power ambushes a little bit so that Mirage does not overperform in ambush rewards with 2 dodges on power and condi. Means how many dmg (power or condi) can be added to the mainly effect /utility based ambushes depends, and needs to be fine adjusted by Anet to a balanced post patch lvl based on 2 dodges. Also normal condi clone autoattacks should lose their high passive condi dmg and should be brought in line with power clones to have nearly zero dmg. These are the minimum changes need to be done. I suggestion a few other nerfs or reworks, some make Mesmer mains more unhappy then others but condi ambush rework based on giving 2 dodges back is absolutely needed to keep the high potential for high skill ceiling of the Mirage spec based on the ambush and IH mechanic and not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic like crazy. Suddenly no problem anymore with someone saying the retargeting mechanic is stupid and should get removed? Rofl I for one would rather see stealth go on Mesmer than detarget. Detarget plays much more into the subterfuge theme of the class than stealth does.Mind you I am biased in that regard as I have been playing stealthless builds for over a year now.The problem is, that retargeting in particular when combined with random position change has way less counterplay (zero to be exact) and kills every possibility for mind gaming (on both Mesmers and opponents side) than stealth. When the target is stealthing i still can anticipate his movement direction, i still can keep track of the Mesmer amoung clones when tracking who is coming out of stealth. Add to that, that most retargeting skills also include a dodge means those skills are just some defensive monsterskills with zero counterplay. While the randomness of the position change can even be bad for the Mesmer itself. IA even adds a lot of offensive power to the defensive monster abilities and is just broken as hell in my opinion and still has too short cd compared to how much stronger it is than Decoy for example. But i would just remove the retargeting mechanic completely. In particular with GW2 slow and bugging targeting it is a pain to fight against even when you have no problem to identify the real Mesmer very fast after that.

Suddenly no problem anymore with someone saying the retargeting mechanic is stupid and should get removed? Rofl

Btw LR or Shock Aura also triggers when not attacking, there must be a bug or something, i got stunned and LR application by it several times without even attacking. I also see no reason for Shock Aura to be undodgeable, it interrupts and completely neutralize Lightning Reflexes on Ranger (because of the useless dmg application on that skill but because of the bug maybe even without that). But a stunbreak and dodge skill should not be neutralized by such braindead spammable hard cc stuff that procs such a big reward without even the need to interrupt anything. When good visible lines on the ground with decent casttime like Guardians staff cc skill (Line of Warding) or Ele staff skill on air (Static Field) are undodgeable is ok but not on instant applied Shock Aura.

It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous onei find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun. with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classesthe amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to playit's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same? Is still a spamming fest between rotations. The main change is that you now you are a +1 and can't kill by yourself most of the time. After next balance, we will see. So yes the role is different. The execution is basically the same but with lower capabilities and more defensive tools, plus some team help with AoE cleanings and boon removal. The most important skill is know how to rotate and where to help each time. Before, you should be more skilled to be a decapper, another history was if X or Y build or state of balance with Mirage was OP. Think about a fight with a single dodge before the patch... It's obvious. Now you are relegated to +1. But if you enjoy more now , perfect for you. With a bit of luck, maybe you'll even enjoy more after the expected sustain nerf. I am just wondering where is the expected sustain nerf to Mirage coming from? Tbh the last class in need of any nerfs based on one dodge is Mesmer while i think there are a lot of other classes clearly overperforming in terms of sustain. Any further nerfs to Mirage/ Mesmer at this point would be a joke. I mean sure it is Anet, means every stupid nonsense balance is possible, and Helisomething NA Top 1-6 hates Mesmer, probably because it needs more skill than other stuff to be broken and easy abused... but can it be there will be even more Mesmer nerfs? You gave yourself the answer... It's Arenanet. So you can expect whatever bizarre things their minds can develop. Be patient. Sure that we will debating about it in few weeks or moths.Aight i thought i missed a balance patch preview or another helisomething whisper screenshot about how he wants to make devs nerf Mesmer even more.

It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous onei find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun. with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classesthe amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to playit's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same? Is still a spamming fest between rotations. The main change is that you now you are a +1 and can't kill by yourself most of the time. After next balance, we will see. So yes the role is different. The execution is basically the same but with lower capabilities and more defensive tools, plus some team help with AoE cleanings and boon removal. The most important skill is know how to rotate and where to help each time. Before, you should be more skilled to be a decapper, another history was if X or Y build or state of balance with Mirage was OP. Think about a fight with a single dodge before the patch... It's obvious. Now you are relegated to +1. But if you enjoy more now , perfect for you. With a bit of luck, maybe you'll even enjoy more after the expected sustain nerf.I am just wondering where is the expected sustain nerf to Mirage coming from? Tbh the last class in need of any nerfs based on one dodge is Mesmer while i think there are a lot of other classes clearly overperforming in terms of sustain. Any further nerfs to Mirage/ Mesmer at this point would be a joke. I mean sure it is Anet, means every stupid nonsense balance is possible, and Helisomething NA Top 1-6 hates Mesmer, probably because it needs more skill than other stuff to be broken and easy abused... but can it be there will be even more Mesmer nerfs?

I would bet on a skill lock out on f4, and because it is Anet maybe in addition to delete f4 invuln from f4 on Mirage and replacing it with some useless elite mechanic stuff as a second trade off. Ofc that new Mirage f4 will be excluded from Signet of Illsuion reset just like the Chrono f4. That way they once again will nerf around the real issue make stuff useless and clunky without solving the only rly op stuff, that Mesmer with such Signet has a way too low cd on a complete invuln skill. While ppl even already complain about, that Mesmer is the only class left with a complete invuln skill that has no skill lock out on a 50s cd (means they already complain while not even counting in, that this broken Signet even almost half the cd on the invuln xD). You get what you ask for i would say, and you can be sure i will be the one laughing when this happens. Mesmer mains literally ask for nonsense nerfs around real issues and this will be what they get and deserve for their cluelessness and bias and for not accepting any senseful and needed nerf/ rework for getting 2 dodges back instead. For fighting any senseful and not biased not overnerf balance suggestion i made and solve the real issues Mirage has on condi IH playstyle and issue every Mesmer build has with this Signet. Mesmer mains will take the Anet hammer then, when they prefer that over my stuff. I will be the one laughing.

As said when you are happy with one dodge and with the Coremesmer portal+debuff bot build as the one and only semi viable build for Mesmer, then all is good. GG Anet you did a good job with Mirage! I take everything back i ever said and will now say the opposite! Based on that new insights i got from the Mesmer god Viquing i will from now on praise Anet balance each morning and evening for the insane class- and elite spec knowledge they have shown when dealing with Mesmer. Mesmer mains are happy, no need for me to fight for a balance that makes more sense, adds more skill ceiling and doesn't contradict the basic mechanics of Mirage and the general gamewide dodgemechanic. Btw i like how you just say we don't agree when you run out of arguments and would need to admit that i am right about the purpose of utilties being less about mobility than you thought. It is a waste of time to talk to you, because when you run out of arguments you just ignore what i said, do not relate anything in your response to what i said and just claim that we disagree xD Yes we disagree because you will not accept simple truth. We also disagree that rain is dry though. And we also disagree when i tell you the earth is not flat. Good that we live in a world everyone has the right for his own opinion, no matter how objective, obviously and factual wrong the opinion is.

The balance solution is certainly not to make another core things destroyed for the sake of elites. The key is to look at why elite is a supercore.The ideal balance solution in regards to the two points above seems to be making mirage less shatter effective while transfering the output on ambushes (mesmer ambushes ofc.). And the counterpart could totally be on raw number shatter output reduction.This way : When taking EM : you are more mobile than core and condiclear but have less burst.When taking IH : you are more mobile than core and condiclear, have less burst but more dps.When taking Dune cloak if they greatly increase the aoe : you are more mobile than core, have less burst but have more utilities. We already had this discussion and i already told you, that i think reducing the whole Mirage traitline to the mobility increase only, is insanely narrowed. What defines Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle is the ambush mechanic even more when added by IH because IH adds even more Mirage specific active and tactical outplay options aside from the usual core combos. The mobility is one but for certain not the main aspect defines Mirage as different spec to core. EM doesn't even add any Mirage specific gamplay options, a condiremove on dodge trait you could literally find on every other class in the same way. It is nothing anyone would say "why does Warrior have a condi remove on dodge, that is a Mirage thing", no one ever would say that. What defines Mirage and also balance out Mirage's op instant dodge is the ambush mechanic, because that creates opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodgemanagement and more active outplay options and more and different combos to core and with that adds skill ceiling. You reduce Mirage to jaunt and sword ambush (literally the only Mirage specific things that get used on the current Condimirage build) what is laughable. Also you complained about EM being overnerfed into uselessness but it seems you do not care when it happens to IH in the same way with the one dodge change, and with that butchers a trait that is clearly more active and skilled when ambushes are designed well than EM ever will be. And a trait that clearly adds a different from core playstyle by adding different combos and outplay moves compard to core aside from just a little bit more mobility. Your whole classification, incl your view on the Mirage GM traits and core traitlines is narrowed in my view. But whatever, keep your one dodge and the one semi viable core Mesmer portal+debuff bot build with a bit more mobility. If you are happy with that why should i care? Don't mixt what you want with what is currently and what is since PoF.Just sit and look at mirage : Mobility : Illusionary ambush, mirage advance, sand through glass, sword ambush, jaunt. (And yeah jaunt alone mean pretty much.).Ambushes : Infinite Horizon, 4 utilities who give mirrors/MC (who are also used to clone ambush btw.), desert distortion. You also don't look at the finality.What's differenciate a core mes to a mirage ? Even if the gameplay is different if you decide to make mirage with ambush as main things, if the two does exactly the same thing at then end, you will always have one who will do it better than the other.I don't want to choose between tool 1 or tool 2 to make a cake, I want to use tool 1 to make a cake and tool 2 to make a main course. And that's the original intent of elites specs. Sand through Glass hardly has a mobility purpose. It is just a double dodge defensive utiltiy adds some more ambushes from the mirror it creates. Means it is mainly for the ambush gameplay and proves my point more than yours. IA is a hybrid (between mobility and ambush gameplay purpose) while the random mobility is even its weakest part, means it is also more about a defensive utility (dodge, retargeting) what adds ambush gameplay from the Mesmer and even from clones without IH needed. Mobility is only a minor second effect from IA and sure not its main purpose. Means also that utility proves my point more than yours. Mirage Advantage is for that the only utility with clearly main purpose of mobility. During sword ambush is the only one out of 5 ambushes that adds mobility. Yeah seems totally main purpose of the spec xD I mean rly stop being that narrowed. An elite spec only about a bit more mobility would be a very poor elite design and no other class would be happy with only that. Not to mention that more mobility does not define and does not create a different playstyle from core at all. They don't do the same thing, core and Mirage have different strengths and different playstyle at least when ambushes and IH are used (and i don't mean only one ambush out of 5 for mainly mobility, while using axe ambush is a waste of time and a misplay more or less, it will lower your dmg when you use it. Big rofl. Aside from the fact, that with only one dodge you can't even use sword offensive and tactical for the daze/ interupt, you only can hope that the moment you need to dodge defensive is also a good moment to use the sword ambush, means with only one dodge sword ambush can't even do its job in defining and creating a different to core playstyle because all Mirage defining mechanics, = ambushes/ IH, are overnerfed from the one dodge change and for that useless to pick in a build).

The balance solution is certainly not to make another core things destroyed for the sake of elites. The key is to look at why elite is a supercore.The ideal balance solution in regards to the two points above seems to be making mirage less shatter effective while transfering the output on ambushes (mesmer ambushes ofc.). And the counterpart could totally be on raw number shatter output reduction.This way : When taking EM : you are more mobile than core and condiclear but have less burst.When taking IH : you are more mobile than core and condiclear, have less burst but more dps.When taking Dune cloak if they greatly increase the aoe : you are more mobile than core, have less burst but have more utilities. We already had this discussion and i already told you, that i think reducing the whole Mirage traitline to the mobility increase only, is insanely narrowed. What defines Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle is the ambush mechanic even more when added by IH because IH adds even more Mirage specific active and tactical outplay options aside from the usual core combos. The mobility is one but for certain not the main aspect defines Mirage as different spec to core. EM doesn't even add any Mirage specific gamplay options, a condiremove on dodge trait you could literally find on every other class in the same way. It is nothing anyone would say "why does Warrior have a condi remove on dodge, that is a Mirage thing", no one ever would say that. What defines Mirage and also balance out Mirage's op instant dodge is the ambush mechanic, because that creates opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodgemanagement and more active outplay options and more and different combos to core and with that adds skill ceiling. You reduce Mirage to jaunt and sword ambush (literally the only Mirage specific things that get used on the current Condimirage build) what is laughable. Aside from axe ofc but that only is the case because atm it is considered to be better than scepter, otherwise scepter could do the job. Scepter strength on Mirage was its op ambushes with multiple hits overperfroming with Sharper Images and stacking confusion and torment pretty well aside from the bleeding, while giving a very short cd block/ evade to spam. But ofc with IH overnerf, overnerf of a core trait (Sharper Images) for the sake of avoiding a direct nerf/ rework to Mirage condi ambushes and only one dodge, the condi ambushes are useless now, even though they are still bad designed and op in itself. But good we nerfed endurance dodges, a core trait (SI) and another Mirage GM trait (IH) into the ground to make ambushes on condi not being used anymore. Instead just solving the root problems of Condimirage, means reworking and balancing the condi ambushes itself. Makes sense! Also you complained about EM being overnerfed into uselessness but it seems you do not care when it happens to IH in the same way with the one dodge change, and with that butchers a trait that is clearly more active and skilled when ambushes are designed well than EM ever will be. And a trait that clearly adds a different from core playstyle by adding different combos and outplay moves compared to core aside from just a little bit more mobility. Your whole classification, incl your view on the Mirage GM traits and core traitlines is narrowed in my view. But whatever, keep your one dodge and the one semi viable core Mesmer portal+debuff bot build with a bit more mobility. If you are happy with that why should i care?

It is mandatory to use now to compensate for the one dodge change what is a stupid nerf in the first place but giving Mirage 2 doges back + Signet in current form would be op post patch. If you deny that you cannot be taken serious. And there are only few ways to avoid Mirage being op with 2 dodges post patch:Either it keeps it one dodge and everything can stay as it is. Or you get your 2 dodges back but f4 gets somehow reworked and nerfed (either by a second trade off or a skill lock out) and i guess we both agree that those ways would be way worse than just excluding f4 reset from Signet what should be excluded in general, also on core, because it is simply too strong to have an complete invul skill on such short cd. Ppl even cry about that it needs a skill lock out. But as said try to keep the f4 reset on that Signet but you have to live with one dodge than or you will even get a way worse nerf to f4 in the future, i bet on it. No, you really don't get it.It's not only used to give more sustain thanks to one dodge.There is currently uses cases who used it : Misha condi/boonclear mirage build.Signets builds. In the case of misha build, it's all about synergy with the build : It's used to F2 bursting when needed.It's used to F3 boonclear/CCing when needed.It's used to F4 when pressured. And this is because the build is based on a F2 burst and F3 boonclear.And of course the 3 uses cases barely happen at the same time, so basically when to reset one of shatter at the right time is what differentiate a good mesmer from a random. A player who rollface his 4 shatter, use signet, then rerollface his 4 shatters will be as usefull as a snail.This right moment to know what to reset at which time is one of the main reason why misha is in top 10 while the next mesmer is far away.Domination line, illusion line + no DE on his build explain why Signet of Illusion way more than one dodge. Which will not change with one or two dodges.Since when you become this bad in theorycraft ? In the case of signet build, it's mainly because signet of inspiration was destroyed.Trust me that I prefer way much a team signet like signet of inspiration was before being deleted than a self-effect signet who will just delay my death. Nonesense doesn't worth to be answered Yeah I know only reality hurt. <3 F1-3 reset will not be affected, those will even get a slightly lower cd and even less coutner by shorter cat time. The only problem with this Signet is the f4 reset (and that not only on Mirage) and when you get 2 dodges back that will not be mandatory to have anymore and you will get more freedom of choice to use other utilities instead. Atm every single Mirage build needes to use the Siget to even have a chance to survive, that can't be what you are happy with. I never think I will read a bravan post asking for reducing skill ceiling.BTW buff mes ! I added some stuff to the previous post you quoted here but your response is so facepalm and far away from any understanding of what i said, it hurts.Keep your one dodge then and be limited in the need to use that Signet on every single Mirage build and only have one semi viable Mirage build anyway. Your choice! Also all classes got nerfed (some are still overperforming in sustain what hopefully will get adjusted soon too). You have to put a 2 dodge Mirage into post patch environment and i am telling you that a 2 dodge Mirage without any adjustments at other places will be op post patch, most likely even on power. While the f4 reset on Signet of Illusion is in general too strong, also on core. But with Mirage having only one dodge you cannot even change it atm because it would kill any Mirage build, means the only single one that is semi playable as a portal and debuff bot mostly depending on core abilities then rly being a Mirage with different playstyle from core. Even without f4 reset the Signet would be a good choice for Mishas build because of all the other synergy you described yourself (synergy with f2, f3 reset already), f4 reset is only needed because of only one dodge. And it limits the utility choice to zero choice because all 3 utilities are now mandatory on every single Mirage build, not only Mishas. But if you prefer current state then keep it. I don't care in the end. Ok let's go for another 2 pages blocks of yes/no. No, if you put 2 dodge mirage back, SoIl will not be used as long as DE is taken and the gameplay is around IH like it always been.No the F4 reset on SoI ins't too strong it was barely used in core with the exception of signets builds but it's because of SoInspiration deletion. Doubling a F4 which mean lose point contribution, generaly only sustain because you use your clones for it so you cannot burst directly after, which in the moste case just delay your dead it clearly not op. At best it's furstrating to the poor opponent who has to kill the mes in 30 sec instead of 15 sec...You reduce a skill who is used to 3 situations to 2 choices => you reduce skill ceiling = > QED. @Leonidrex.5649 said: You still don't understand that your balance suggestion to IH dumbs it down and break a leg from Mirage. You also don't get that the one dodge change is the only reason you are forced into using that broken Singet in the first place. If you get 2 dodges back you get both legs back and the freedom to choose another utility than a broken Singet should not exist in its current state. I even said for Odik, that it can get a little cd reduction and a little reduction in cast time as compensation to make it not a dead utility, still useful just not as broken as it is now and for certain less mandatory to use. But if you guys prefer to have only one dodge and being pressured in using this broken and low skill ceiling Signet on every single Mirage build then why do i even care. If you Mesmer mains think that you can just get 2 dodges back and nothing else needs to be adjusted to make Mirage on power and condi not op compared to other classes post patch and based on having 2 dodges again, then there is no basic to discuss, that is too delusional. 4s invlun>extra dodgeif you dont get that they I dont know what to tell you, even with 2 dodges mirage would still be forced to take soi to survive, thx for nerfing all sustain and evasion from staff/scept/axe, but you dont get it and you refuse to accept it That is not true, with 2 dodges even Powermirage was able to choose another utility over Signet. lolNo clue what you are talking, you just told me few days ago how you got plat 3 with a Powermriage build even pre patch not using Signet of Illusion but Illusion of Life instead. And again: That soemthing didn't get used in core days doesn't mean it was not op or that it was weak, it just means there were builds better which had better synergies to other stuff. The Signet should not have f4 reset included since game release. And a 2 dodge Mirage in post patch state of other classes being nerfed in dmg and sustain too, doesn't need the f4 reset to survive, just as it was not needed pre patch with 2 dodges. So you want to nerf a skill who will not be used and is taken on certain type of builds because of synergy.Yay ! Let's make another dead think because reasons and clearly a skills who promote skill and give choice should not exists and have his options reduced to bare minimum to be sure nobody use it.About unused things during core day, we all remember your crusade against CI. We all see the pretty skilled result.It is more a rework than a nerf, you will still have good enough synergy to take it on Misha build for the f2 and f3 reset. The missing f4 reset will be compensated by having a second dodge and the ability to choose another utility on builds with less synergy to f1-f3 reset. Like getting another stealth or teleport or another dodge utility. It will give you more freedom of choice in utilities not less. This can't be so hard to understand. Btw maybe wait a little bit before quoting and answering my posts, i often edit them and add some stuff and delete typos. My previous post you just quoted i edited before already. The deletion of old CI was absolutely fine. That Anet replaced it with crap is not my fault. I made clearly better suggestions for a rework than what Anet did in the end.

It is mandatory to use now to compensate for the one dodge change what is a stupid nerf in the first place but giving Mirage 2 doges back + Signet in current form would be op post patch. If you deny that you cannot be taken serious. And there are only few ways to avoid Mirage being op with 2 dodges post patch:Either it keeps it one dodge and everything can stay as it is. Or you get your 2 dodges back but f4 gets somehow reworked and nerfed (either by a second trade off or a skill lock out) and i guess we both agree that those ways would be way worse than just excluding f4 reset from Signet what should be excluded in general, also on core, because it is simply too strong to have an complete invul skill on such short cd. Ppl even cry about that it needs a skill lock out. But as said try to keep the f4 reset on that Signet but you have to live with one dodge than or you will even get a way worse nerf to f4 in the future, i bet on it. No, you really don't get it.It's not only used to give more sustain thanks to one dodge.There is currently uses cases who used it : Misha condi/boonclear mirage build.Signets builds. In the case of misha build, it's all about synergy with the build : It's used to F2 bursting when needed.It's used to F3 boonclear/CCing when needed.It's used to F4 when pressured. And this is because the build is based on a F2 burst and F3 boonclear.And of course the 3 uses cases barely happen at the same time, so basically when to reset one of shatter at the right time is what differentiate a good mesmer from a random. A player who rollface his 4 shatter, use signet, then rerollface his 4 shatters will be as usefull as a snail.This right moment to know what to reset at which time is one of the main reason why misha is in top 10 while the next mesmer is far away.Domination line, illusion line + no DE on his build explain why Signet of Illusion way more than one dodge. Which will not change with one or two dodges.Since when you become this bad in theorycraft ? In the case of signet build, it's mainly because signet of inspiration was destroyed.Trust me that I prefer way much a team signet like signet of inspiration was before being deleted than a self-effect signet who will just delay my death. Nonesense doesn't worth to be answered Yeah I know only reality hurt. <3 F1-3 reset will not be affected, those will even get a slightly lower cd and even less coutner by shorter cat time. The only problem with this Signet is the f4 reset (and that not only on Mirage) and when you get 2 dodges back that will not be mandatory to have anymore and you will get more freedom of choice to use other utilities instead. Atm every single Mirage build needes to use the Siget to even have a chance to survive, that can't be what you are happy with. I never think I will read a bravan post asking for reducing skill ceiling.BTW buff mes ! I added some stuff to the previous post you quoted here but your response is so facepalm and far away from any understanding of what i said, it hurts.Keep your one dodge then and be limited in the need to use that Signet on every single Mirage build and only have one semi viable Mirage build anyway. Your choice! Also all classes got nerfed (some are still overperforming in sustain what hopefully will get adjusted soon too). You have to put a 2 dodge Mirage into post patch environment and i am telling you that a 2 dodge Mirage without any adjustments at other places will be op post patch, most likely even on power. While the f4 reset on Signet of Illusion is in general too strong, also on core. But with Mirage having only one dodge you cannot even change it atm because it would kill any Mirage build, means the only single one that is semi playable as a portal and debuff bot mostly depending on core abilities then rly being a Mirage with different playstyle from core. Even without f4 reset the Signet would be a good choice for Mishas build because of all the other synergy you described yourself (synergy with f2, f3 reset already), f4 reset is only needed because of only one dodge. And it limits the utility choice to zero choice because all 3 utilities are now mandatory on every single Mirage build, not only Mishas. But if you prefer current state then keep it. I don't care in the end. Ok let's go for another 2 pages blocks of yes/no. No, if you put 2 dodge mirage back, SoIl will not be used as long as DE is taken and the gameplay is around IH like it always been.No the F4 reset on SoI ins't too strong it was barely used in core with the exception of signets builds but it's because of SoInspiration deletion. Doubling a F4 which mean lose point contribution, generaly only sustain because you use your clones for it so you cannot burst directly after, which in the moste case just delay your dead it clearly not op. At best it's furstrating to the poor opponent who has to kill the mes in 30 sec instead of 15 sec...You reduce a skill who is used to 3 situations to 2 choices => you reduce skill ceiling = > QED. @Leonidrex.5649 said: You still don't understand that your balance suggestion to IH dumbs it down and break a leg from Mirage. You also don't get that the one dodge change is the only reason you are forced into using that broken Singet in the first place. If you get 2 dodges back you get both legs back and the freedom to choose another utility than a broken Singet should not exist in its current state. I even said for Odik, that it can get a little cd reduction and a little reduction in cast time as compensation to make it not a dead utility, still useful just not as broken as it is now and for certain less mandatory to use. But if you guys prefer to have only one dodge and being pressured in using this broken and low skill ceiling Signet on every single Mirage build then why do i even care. If you Mesmer mains think that you can just get 2 dodges back and nothing else needs to be adjusted to make Mirage on power and condi not op compared to other classes post patch and based on having 2 dodges again, then there is no basic to discuss, that is too delusional. 4s invlun>extra dodgeif you dont get that they I dont know what to tell you, even with 2 dodges mirage would still be forced to take soi to survive, thx for nerfing all sustain and evasion from staff/scept/axe, but you dont get it and you refuse to accept it That is not true, with 2 dodges even Powermirage was able to choose another utility over Signet. lolNo clue what you are talking Viquing, you just told me few days ago how you got Plat 3 with a Powermirage build even pre patch not using Signet of Illusion but Illusion of Life instead. Maybe tell Leonidrex about it.And again: That something didn't get used in core days doesn't mean it was not op or that it was weak, it just means there were builds better, which had better synergies to other stuff. The Signet should not have f4 reset included since game release. And a 2 dodge Mirage in post patch state of other classes being nerfed in dmg and sustain too, doesn't need the f4 reset to survive, just as it was not needed pre patch with 2 dodges. And that you even proved yourself Viquing rofl.Viquing you are the one arguing for current state and being happy with only one semi viable build that is not even based on Mirage mechancis to do any dmg or debuff. It is more a core Mesmer than a Mirage. It is viable because it literally AVOIDS Mirage mechanics as much as possible because they are overnerfed with the one dodge change. You want to keep the current state so don't complain about only having one build. I just gave you balance suggestion to make more Mirage builds an at least semi viable choice again. But you prefer to avoid any change even when it all together is more a bufff when getting 2 dodges back. And when you get more freedom in choice of utilities again, just as it was pre patch. And when you get useful utility condi ambushes you can active and tactical work with instead this overnerfed and useless IH passive condi clone dmg spam crap we have atm.

It is mandatory to use now to compensate for the one dodge change what is a stupid nerf in the first place but giving Mirage 2 doges back + Signet in current form would be op post patch. If you deny that you cannot be taken serious. And there are only few ways to avoid Mirage being op with 2 dodges post patch:Either it keeps it one dodge and everything can stay as it is. Or you get your 2 dodges back but f4 gets somehow reworked and nerfed (either by a second trade off or a skill lock out) and i guess we both agree that those ways would be way worse than just excluding f4 reset from Signet what should be excluded in general, also on core, because it is simply too strong to have an complete invul skill on such short cd. Ppl even cry about that it needs a skill lock out. But as said try to keep the f4 reset on that Signet but you have to live with one dodge than or you will even get a way worse nerf to f4 in the future, i bet on it. No, you really don't get it.It's not only used to give more sustain thanks to one dodge.There is currently uses cases who used it : Misha condi/boonclear mirage build.Signets builds. In the case of misha build, it's all about synergy with the build : It's used to F2 bursting when needed.It's used to F3 boonclear/CCing when needed.It's used to F4 when pressured. And this is because the build is based on a F2 burst and F3 boonclear.And of course the 3 uses cases barely happen at the same time, so basically when to reset one of shatter at the right time is what differentiate a good mesmer from a random. A player who rollface his 4 shatter, use signet, then rerollface his 4 shatters will be as usefull as a snail.This right moment to know what to reset at which time is one of the main reason why misha is in top 10 while the next mesmer is far away.Domination line, illusion line + no DE on his build explain why Signet of Illusion way more than one dodge. Which will not change with one or two dodges.Since when you become this bad in theorycraft ? In the case of signet build, it's mainly because signet of inspiration was destroyed.Trust me that I prefer way much a team signet like signet of inspiration was before being deleted than a self-effect signet who will just delay my death. Nonesense doesn't worth to be answered Yeah I know only reality hurt. <3 F1-3 reset will not be affected, those will even get a slightly lower cd and even less coutner by shorter cat time. The only problem with this Signet is the f4 reset (and that not only on Mirage) and when you get 2 dodges back that will not be mandatory to have anymore and you will get more freedom of choice to use other utilities instead. Atm every single Mirage build needes to use the Siget to even have a chance to survive, that can't be what you are happy with. I never think I will read a bravan post asking for reducing skill ceiling.BTW buff mes ! I added some stuff to the previous post you quoted here but your response is so facepalm and far away from any understanding of what i said, it hurts.Keep your one dodge then and be limited in the need to use that Signet on every single Mirage build and only have one semi viable Mirage build anyway. Your choice! Also all classes got nerfed (some are still overperfroming in sustain what hopefully will get adjusted soon too). You have to put a 2 dodge Mirage into post patch environment and i am telling you that a 2 dodge Mirage without any adjustments at other places will be op post patch, most likely even on power. While the f4 reset on Signet of Illusion is in general too strong, also on core. But with Mirage having only one dodge you cannot even change it atm because it would kill any Mirage build, means the only single one that is semi playable as a portal and debuff bot mostyl depending on core abilities then rly being a Mirage with different playstyle from core. If oyu prefer current state then keep it. I don't care in the end. switch soi for IA and see how good you can do, this is mesmer without signet and 2 dodgesNot true, IA doesn't compensate for an endurance dodge. Neither does it trigger dodge traits like DE nor does it include player controlled movement like an endurance dodge. It adds other stuff in return but that is still not comparable, also it has higher cd than a normal dodge because of the other stuff it adds (like retargeting). Even Sand Through Glass would be a better replacement for a test but that is also not a comparable skill to replace an endurance dodge.

It is mandatory to use now to compensate for the one dodge change what is a stupid nerf in the first place but giving Mirage 2 doges back + Signet in current form would be op post patch. If you deny that you cannot be taken serious. And there are only few ways to avoid Mirage being op with 2 dodges post patch:Either it keeps it one dodge and everything can stay as it is. Or you get your 2 dodges back but f4 gets somehow reworked and nerfed (either by a second trade off or a skill lock out) and i guess we both agree that those ways would be way worse than just excluding f4 reset from Signet what should be excluded in general, also on core, because it is simply too strong to have an complete invul skill on such short cd. Ppl even cry about that it needs a skill lock out. But as said try to keep the f4 reset on that Signet but you have to live with one dodge than or you will even get a way worse nerf to f4 in the future, i bet on it. No, you really don't get it.It's not only used to give more sustain thanks to one dodge.There is currently uses cases who used it : Misha condi/boonclear mirage build.Signets builds. In the case of misha build, it's all about synergy with the build : It's used to F2 bursting when needed.It's used to F3 boonclear/CCing when needed.It's used to F4 when pressured. And this is because the build is based on a F2 burst and F3 boonclear.And of course the 3 uses cases barely happen at the same time, so basically when to reset one of shatter at the right time is what differentiate a good mesmer from a random. A player who rollface his 4 shatter, use signet, then rerollface his 4 shatters will be as usefull as a snail.This right moment to know what to reset at which time is one of the main reason why misha is in top 10 while the next mesmer is far away.Domination line, illusion line + no DE on his build explain why Signet of Illusion way more than one dodge. Which will not change with one or two dodges.Since when you become this bad in theorycraft ? In the case of signet build, it's mainly because signet of inspiration was destroyed.Trust me that I prefer way much a team signet like signet of inspiration was before being deleted than a self-effect signet who will just delay my death. Nonesense doesn't worth to be answered Yeah I know only reality hurt. <3 F1-3 reset will not be affected, those will even get a slightly lower cd and even less coutner by shorter cat time. The only problem with this Signet is the f4 reset (and that not only on Mirage) and when you get 2 dodges back that will not be mandatory to have anymore and you will get more freedom of choice to use other utilities instead. Atm every single Mirage build needes to use the Siget to even have a chance to survive, that can't be what you are happy with. I never think I will read a bravan post asking for reducing skill ceiling.BTW buff mes !I added some stuff to the previous post you quoted here but your response is so facepalm and far away from any understanding of what i said, it hurts.Keep your one dodge then and be limited in the need to use that Signet on every single Mirage build and only have one semi viable Mirage build anyway. Your choice! Also all classes got nerfed (some are still overperforming in sustain what hopefully will get adjusted soon too). You have to put a 2 dodge Mirage into post patch environment and i am telling you that a 2 dodge Mirage without any adjustments at other places will be op post patch, most likely even on power. While the f4 reset on Signet of Illusion is in general too strong, also on core. But with Mirage having only one dodge you cannot even change it atm because it would kill any Mirage build, means the only single one that is semi playable as a portal and debuff bot mostly depending on core abilities then rly being a Mirage with different playstyle from core. Even without f4 reset the Signet would be a good choice for Mishas build because of all the other synergy you described yourself (synergy with f2, f3 reset already), f4 reset is only needed because of only one dodge. And it limits the utility choice to zero choice because all 3 utilities are now mandatory on every single Mirage build, not only Mishas. But if you prefer current state then keep it. I don't care in the end.

It is mandatory to use now to compensate for the one dodge change what is a stupid nerf in the first place but giving Mirage 2 doges back + Signet in current form would be op post patch. If you deny that you cannot be taken serious. And there are only few ways to avoid Mirage being op with 2 dodges post patch:Either it keeps it one dodge and everything can stay as it is. Or you get your 2 dodges back but f4 gets somehow reworked and nerfed (either by a second trade off or a skill lock out) and i guess we both agree that those ways would be way worse than just excluding f4 reset from Signet what should be excluded in general, also on core, because it is simply too strong to have an complete invul skill on such short cd. Ppl even cry about that it needs a skill lock out. But as said try to keep the f4 reset on that Signet but you have to live with one dodge than or you will even get a way worse nerf to f4 in the future, i bet on it. No, you really don't get it.It's not only used to give more sustain thanks to one dodge.There is currently uses cases who used it : Misha condi/boonclear mirage build.Signets builds. In the case of misha build, it's all about synergy with the build : It's used to F2 bursting when needed.It's used to F3 boonclear/CCing when needed.It's used to F4 when pressured. And this is because the build is based on a F2 burst and F3 boonclear.And of course the 3 uses cases barely happen at the same time, so basically when to reset one of shatter at the right time is what differentiate a good mesmer from a random. A player who rollface his 4 shatter, use signet, then rerollface his 4 shatters will be as usefull as a snail.This right moment to know what to reset at which time is one of the main reason why misha is in top 10 while the next mesmer is far away.Domination line, illusion line + no DE on his build explain why Signet of Illusion way more than one dodge. Which will not change with one or two dodges.Since when you become this bad in theorycraft ? In the case of signet build, it's mainly because signet of inspiration was destroyed.Trust me that I prefer way much a team signet like signet of inspiration was before being deleted than a self-effect signet who will just delay my death. Nonesense doesn't worth to be answered Yeah I know only reality hurt. <3 F1-3 reset will not be affected, those will even get a slightly lower cd and even less coutner by shorter cat time. The only problem with this Signet is the f4 reset (and that not only on Mirage) and when you get 2 dodges back that will not be mandatory to have anymore and you will get more freedom of choice to use other utilities instead. Atm every single Mirage build needs to use the Signet to even have a chance to survive, that can't be what you are happy with. Not to mention that only one Mirage build is semi viable when be babysitted by other roamers and limited to be mainly a portal and debuff bot with just some burst condi dmg. While IH now is the one completely overnerfed into uselessness while IH at least has the potential to be a more active and skilled trait then a simple condi remove on dodge doesn't define Mirage as a different spec from core at all.