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    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    The one that is about to give up here is me and the one that just won't get it is you. But I will try one last time. You claimed that a reason for the failure of Raids is because they don't have multiple difficulty tiers.I stated that content WITH multiple tiers (Fractals) has a much longer content drought than Raids, proving that difficulty tiers didn't really help with releases. That's a proven fact I hope it's not up for dispute. You then gave the argument that there are other things in Fractals that drive people away even though, as you yourself claimed, those things don't apply to the lower tiers of Fractals.

    So let me ask you this, do you really believe that agony and the "other mechanics" of Fractals drive MORE players away from the game than the mechanics of Raids? And the mere fact that Raids were called "Raids" to begin with? Are you trying to convince me that agony drives players so far away that it surpasses the whole mechanics of Raids AND the fact that Raids do not have difficulty tiers? I'm sorry but that's impossible to justify. If you still believe that then good for you, but logic dictates otherwise.Both your latest claim is wrong, and your initial claim is wrong.

    Yeah, I've given up on you. Sorry, I won't bother anymore. I'm not going to explain it again, it's just such a waste of time.

    Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    I already gave you the time frame and you can find it here:

    Nice, that's the link i posted originally for you to show me the time frame, but you still haven't answered me once. Nice going. But it doesn't matter anymore. I've tried to get you to tell me the timeframe where OW content was released exclusively, but you're simply not doing it.I don't really care anymore, you've avoided giving a precise timeframe all this time.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    So E-Specs should only be used inside instances as they are not OW content. Got it. Anet should make sure you can't use E-Specs anymore while in the OW. Even though that would be weird since you can't unlock them outside OW (and a side of WVW)

    ???You said they're not raid/fractals/pvp content. I've only said they're not required in OW content, because you said they're not required in raid/fractals/pvp.You're the one saying E-speccs are only OW content, which wasn't true going by your own logic, since WvW is also able to unlock it. And your logic for some reason means the e-speccs belong to the content that unlocks it, instead of every content that actively uses it.

    I've never said they're not OW content, that was you putting words in my mouth. E-speccs are content for every game mode. But you don't seem to think so.

    I don't even understand your logic here, it's so alien to me how E-speccs aren't raid/fractals/pvp content to you. But you do you. I don't think I will ever get you.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    The big money maker was the Icebrood Saga, not the build templates. This game still had many releases on the gem store in Q4 2019, as they did in Q3 2019 and before that. And besides that, if they wanted Build Templates to be a money maker and aimed at the minority, they should've given CONTENT for that minority to use those templates on. But all the non-OW content was in a massive drought when they released templates.

    Except the Icebrood Saga is free for everyone that logs on. And if you for some reason didn't get them for free, just compare the prices of the IBS and the build templates.Can't buy something you've already unlocked, so I doubt it will make a huge amount of money.

    But yeah, sure. Keep believing what you do. OW players ruined your game. Fine. I'm over it and won't try correcting you anymore. The free episodes are the big money maker.

    Hyped for the next road map. Bet there will be no raids. Probably Fractal / Festival / LS / maybe Legendary templates?

    I wonder if it will be like the Icebrood saga "reveal", simple "more story and more OW maps" or it will be more inclusive like the previous one.

    Well, we know for a fact that it won't be raids. I'll just wait and see what Anet does and how it turns out. I've been fine with most releases, since I play every gamemode aside from raids. I just hope Anet spends the money in the right place, so that GW2 can continue even after Cantha.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:You know what kills MMORPGs? A low playerbase when the game
    only
    caters to a small amount of players.

    No one ever wanted them to only cater to a small audiance. People just wanted a bit more than 3 Bosses every 9 months.

    Not sure about the first part. I‘ve seen plenty of people being vehemently against any type of suggestion that opens up raids to more people, just to save their petty exclusivity. Like I‘ve said earlier, they can now reap what they‘ve sown.Second part is natural, many people want more content they enjoy, no matter the content. Having more people play the content makes it more likely that it will get more developement time.

    Ppl were against delaying raids further to make an easy mode, the exact thing we are seeing now.

    What kills raids and fractals is the unhealthy cadense, in 4 months fractals will have gone 2 years without any adition.

    Trying to get a better harvest by planting more crops doesn't work when you're planting the seeds on contaminated soil. Grabbing the problem by the root and replacing the earth would have, but it's already harvest time.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP mapPrevious non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months agoIf you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW contentJune 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. FestivalAugust 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. FestivalOctober 2019 Build templatesNobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content...Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes. Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon.

    Yeah, I can do as many mental gymnastics as I want, you'd still beat me to the medal. Pretending that content doesn't exist because of your subjective metrics doesn't make it true.You didn't define weaker players. Weaker than raiders in raid content? Obviously. That's what they're there for. To bridge content, to get players to play raids. So yeah, they are intended for players that aren't dedicated raiders, or do you think you can use gamemodes that are harder than raids, to get people into raiding? They would just laugh at raids!

    Ah yes, you can not count content all you want, but it will still not disappear. The content still exists. You can pretend all you want, but your 1-1.5 years still doesn't exist. And your new "none on the horizon" is also untrue, since a new fractal was already announced.

    So we agree, the new fractal will release hopefully before the 2 year mark is reached.There are no new raids on the horizon and the last one is by now beyond 1 year ago with very slow releases over the 2 years before.Strikes are not aimed at hardcore pve players.

    So overall there is no content for the niche hardcore pve crowd and none on the horizon. So yes, that crowd has moved on. Hence the decline in revenue.

    But that goes against your reasoning from earlier! The content that gets developed is the one that brings revenue after all!

    I mean it's pretty obvious why there's no new raids on the horizon. No revenue.

    I explained what lead to the decline of raids.

    Your explanation isn't a fact, just an opinion.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Of course SMs aren't aimed at "hardcore" pve players, they are there as a bridge, like Anet stated.

    I doubt the niche "hardcore" raid crowd was ever responsible for a lot of revenue, hence the decline of raids.

    Your doubt is not reflected in the revenue numbers. So far while while only providing non niche content has seen the games revenue on a constant decline (see, I specifically did not call it open world content).

    Normal for a game to decline after time. I could mention the post HoT Quarter Q1 2016, where most releases had to do with raids. Providing niche content didn't work out there. So yes, my doubt is certainly reflected there, and that was pretty much the start of the decline for raids. Man that period hit GW2 hard.

    @Raknar.4735 said:The true hardcore people that spent every dollar they have on the game? Maybe. But people that define themselves as "hardcore" because they raid? Doubt it.

    No, there are hardcore players who do not raid. I do not question that. Question is, how big is the fraction of dedicated players that do raid or participate in niche content, who likely get bored on the "easy" stuff and when not provided continued content.

    I wonder too, and I'd like to compare revenue to the dedicated players that don't raid or participate in niche content, that get bored when only niche stuff releases.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

    Of course they failed, the designated group didn't buy it. Anets fault for trying to sell a system that was desired by a niche group, but didn't plan it out, so it ended up being bought by pretty much noone.

    I'm pretty positive the legendary armory is something in preparation for Cantha, but that's just an opinion. If not, then good luck Anet.

    Also, if we're using your logic here, and developing content depends on the current things being developed that could generate revenue, as in legendary armory, doesn't that mean that dedicated raiders didn't bring in in "the money"? After all, raids aren't really developed anymore. LS is still being developed though, so are SMs and Fractals. PvP and WvW also sometimes get balance patches, sets and mounts + skins here and there. Guess I'll agree with you then!

    To be very accurate, NOTHING was being developed toward the end of season 4. There are official statements that clearly state that the devs did not know if there was going to be any content beyond season 4.

    The moment where the decision was made to continue supporting GW2, raids and challenging instanced pve content were already hit with player decline due to a slow release cadence. Dropping raids after made sense when only having a skeleton crew.

    Yes, Living Story is still being developed. Let's see for how long. My guess is: hopefully until the next expansion which again hopefully will bring a lot of hardcore players back. If not, there will never be a LW season 6. Don't worry though, you can come back and quote me on that when it happens.

    Do you mean the official statements from JP? Heh. Can't call them official, if she isn't part of it anymore, can we?

    No, I am also referring to how season 4 was designed as a closure to the entire story. Unlike previous arcs, it had no teaser. It was designed as closure to the story line. Some time during Episode 3 or 4, the decision was made to continue. This was further facilitated when NCSoft stepped in and had the layoffs.

    Yeah, you're referring to the JP statements, I'd like to have the link to those statements again btw, I've lost them.NCSoft stepped in because the other products that were developed next to GW2 didn't work out. But this has nothing to do with OW or LS content, unless you somehow pretend that other products are OW or LS content like festivals and all types of cosmetics.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Slow release cadence was due to already low playersize and revenue, so it made sense to drop raids.Thinking hardcore players are the reason for high revenues is laughable. It's not even true for most mobile games, where the whales beat the hardcore players by a lot when it comes to revenue. Also, can you truly be hardcore when you leave? That's pretty casual, just like being a 1day/week tourist is pretty casual.The game is 8 years old, if it breaks down, it won't be due to some players leaving that are full of themselves, calling themselves hardcore, when they're casuals at heart ;)So, if it breaks down, should I tell people that GW2 died because of 1day/week tourists, or should I just tell them the truth? I mean, it probably still has a good 2-3 years of life expectancy with Cantha being developed, unless they just drop Cantha because NCSOFT has different plans with Anet. I also don't see any good MMORPG releases on the horizon, we're still stuck with the good ol' WoW, FFXIV, RS, ESO, GW2, BDO.

    Tell yourself what you want. When part of the dedicated crowd goes, so does the money. I honestly don't care how you rationalize it. The revenue numbers over the next few quarters will paint a very clear picture. Hey for all I care it be wonderful if the game sees a sharp increase in revenue. It will allow me to return some times in the future. Personally I doubt it, but I am open to surprises.

    Part of the dedicated raider crowd. I don't see a reason for the dedicated OW or LS crowd to leave. The only crowd I honestly feel sad for are the WvWers that had it the roughest of all groups. But hey, they can keep their content alive.

    GL on your vacation then. I'll still stay here and enjoy any content that interests me, no matter the gamemode, since the one I don't actually enjoy anymore isn't developed further.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP mapPrevious non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months agoIf you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW contentJune 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. FestivalAugust 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. FestivalOctober 2019 Build templatesNobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content...Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes. Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon.

    Yeah, I can do as many mental gymnastics as I want, you'd still beat me to the medal. Pretending that content doesn't exist because of your subjective metrics doesn't make it true.You didn't define weaker players. Weaker than raiders in raid content? Obviously. That's what they're there for. To bridge content, to get players to play raids. So yeah, they are intended for players that aren't dedicated raiders, or do you think you can use gamemodes that are harder than raids, to get people into raiding? They would just laugh at raids!

    Ah yes, you can not count content all you want, but it will still not disappear. The content still exists. You can pretend all you want, but your 1-1.5 years still doesn't exist. And your new "none on the horizon" is also untrue, since a new fractal was already announced.

    So we agree, the new fractal will release hopefully before the 2 year mark is reached.There are no new raids on the horizon and the last one is by now beyond 1 year ago with very slow releases over the 2 years before.Strikes are not aimed at hardcore pve players.

    So overall there is no content for the niche hardcore pve crowd and none on the horizon. So yes, that crowd has moved on. Hence the decline in revenue.

    But that goes against your reasoning from earlier! The content that gets developed is the one that brings revenue after all!

    I mean it's pretty obvious why there's no new raids on the horizon. No revenue.Of course SMs aren't aimed at "hardcore" pve players, they are there as a bridge, like Anet stated.

    I doubt the niche "hardcore" raid crowd was ever responsible for a lot of revenue, hence the decline of raids.

    The true hardcore people that spent every dollar they have on the game? Maybe. But people that define themselves as "hardcore" because they raid? Doubt it.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

    Of course they failed, the designated group didn't buy it. Anets fault for trying to sell a system that was desired by a niche group, but didn't plan it out, so it ended up being bought by pretty much noone.

    I'm pretty positive the legendary armory is something in preparation for Cantha, but that's just an opinion. If not, then good luck Anet.

    Also, if we're using your logic here, and developing content depends on the current things being developed that could generate revenue, as in legendary armory, doesn't that mean that dedicated raiders didn't bring in in "the money"? After all, raids aren't really developed anymore. LS is still being developed though, so are SMs and Fractals. PvP and WvW also sometimes get balance patches, sets and mounts + skins here and there. Guess I'll agree with you then!

    To be very accurate, NOTHING was being developed toward the end of season 4. There are official statements that clearly state that the devs did not know if there was going to be any content beyond season 4.

    The moment where the decision was made to continue supporting GW2, raids and challenging instanced pve content were already hit with player decline due to a slow release cadence. Dropping raids after made sense when only having a skeleton crew.

    Yes, Living Story is still being developed. Let's see for how long. My guess is: hopefully until the next expansion which again hopefully will bring a lot of hardcore players back. If not, there will never be a LW season 6. Don't worry though, you can come back and quote me on that when it happens.

    Do you mean the official statements from JP? Heh. Can't call them official, if she isn't part of it anymore, can we?Slow release cadence was due to already low playersize and revenue, so it made sense to drop raids.

    Thinking hardcore players are the reason for high revenues is laughable. It's not even true for most mobile games, where the whales beat the hardcore players by a lot when it comes to revenue. Also, can you truly be hardcore when you leave? That's pretty casual, just like being a 1day/week tourist is pretty casual.The game is 8 years old, if it breaks down, it won't be due to some players leaving that are full of themselves, calling themselves hardcore, when they're casuals at heart ;)

    So, if it breaks down, should I tell people that GW2 died because of 1day/week tourists, or should I just tell them the truth? I mean, it probably still has a good 2-3 years of life expectancy with Cantha being developed, unless they just drop Cantha because NCSOFT has different plans with Anet. I also don't see any good MMORPG releases on the horizon, we're still stuck with the good ol' WoW, FFXIV, RS, ESO, GW2, BDO.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP mapPrevious non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months agoIf you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW contentJune 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. FestivalAugust 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. FestivalOctober 2019 Build templatesNobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content...Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    You can do as mental gymnastics as you want. Fact remains: dedicated players of WvW, Spvp and pve challenging content have not seen content releases and are also not likely to see any.

    The fact you count Strike Missions as not for weaker players shows how out of touch you are with players from those niche modes. Pretty much every more dedicated raider I know laughs at strikes.

    As for the remainder, fine, let's not count it as content for any player group. still does not change the fact that niche players have not seen any content as mentioned by me in 1-1.5 years with none on the horizon.

    Yeah, I can do as many mental gymnastics as I want, you'd still beat me to the medal. Pretending that content doesn't exist because of your subjective metrics doesn't make it true.You didn't define weaker players. Weaker than raiders in raid content? Obviously. That's what they're there for. To bridge content, to get players to play raids. So yeah, they are intended for players that aren't dedicated raiders, or do you think you can use gamemodes that are harder than raids, to get people into raiding? They would just laugh at raids!

    Ah yes, you can not count content all you want, but it will still not disappear. The content still exists. You can pretend all you want, but your 1-1.5 years still doesn't exist. And your new "none on the horizon" is also untrue, since a new fractal was already announced.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    Well then the developers failed miserably. The fact they are trying to "fix" the system with legendary armory though shows that they have hope to generate revenue from these niche groups. Why else would they even bother?

    Simple, because that's where the money is.

    Of course they failed, the designated group didn't buy it. Anets fault for trying to sell a system that was desired by a niche group, but didn't plan it out, so it ended up being bought by pretty much noone.

    I'm pretty positive the legendary armory is something in preparation for Cantha, but that's just an opinion. If not, then good luck Anet.

    Also, if we're using your logic here, and developing content depends on the current things being developed that could generate revenue, as in legendary armory, doesn't that mean that dedicated raiders didn't bring in in "the money"?After all, raids aren't really developed anymore. LS is still being developed though, so are SMs and Fractals. PvP and WvW also sometimes get balance patches, sets and mounts + skins here and there.Guess I'll agree with you and Anet then! Don't bother developing content like raids where you can't hope for revenue!

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP mapPrevious non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months agoIf you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW contentJune 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. FestivalAugust 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. FestivalOctober 2019 Build templatesNobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content...Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Okay, let me rephrase:
    No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.
    All of which have not seen content any new content in 1-1.5 years, with no new content in sight except for maybe fractals, which if the next one comes out within the next 6 months, would have the release time barely below 2 years. Strike missions are clearly targeted at the weaker player base given their easy difficulty for adept players and as such again not aimed at the niche pve group.

    Festivals and cosmetics are in my eyes open world content. At the least festivals, given how they have no in any way challenging instanced content with only minor spvp "game modes" and no WvW content.

    Turns out, if dedicated players from niche game modes are not serviced, the games revenue drops. At least that's what the timeline suggests.

    So you can pretend you understand something else when people mention that there was "only open world content" released. What you can not argue against though is that there was no content for these niche groups, and revenue has been in steady decline since.

    Idk, for me it seems like you're doing a whole lot of pretending. Pretending that certain content is open world when it clearly is not.I'm still not seeing the 1-1.5 years gap, even if you rephrase it as No content targeted at any of the more dedicated players be it WvW, sPvp or raids/fractals was released.

    I mean, I could easily say we haven't gotten content targeted at any of the more dedicated OW players, since Triple Trouble was the last release, but that's just painting the world how you want to see it. Completely subjective metrics.

    SMs are targeted to bridge players into raids, so clearly not at the weaker playerbase. Maybe at the average one. They are not open world content. They are still niche content.

    Didn't know cosmetics are open world. So any new Sets in PvP or WvW are OW? Wow.Festivals combine multiple types of content, they aren't OW. They may be in your eyes, but that would just be you pretending.

    Turns out revenue drops when you try to release a system that is only targeted at a niche as the big money maker.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    Actually no, build templates were aimed at the entire player base given how they were implemented. If they had been implemented for the minority, the design decisions are insanely bad.

    It's why build templates failed as bad as they did:They were aimed at the entire player base, but are only of use to the minority, which in turn refused to spend as much money for the current system, while many of the more casual players simply have no need for them. It's also why they are reworking the system and potentially updating it with the legendary armory. To increase the value to the minority to get them to spend money on this.

    Na, they were implemented to replace Arc. The majority didn't even use Arc. They probably don't even use the templates and run around with the same build. You can pretend it wasn't aimed at the minority all you want. Same thing for the legendary armory, still only targeted to be used by the minority.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:It was still primarily intended for players that switch builds regularly and intended to be their big "new and exciting" feature for Q4. The system being bad and simultanously developed for a small percentage of players are both reasons why it didn't sell well.

    If its for players that often switch builds, why am i limited to only 6 equipment slots? I highly doubt anyone even knew what to do with this. I can imagine this being one of the reasons why its such a mess.Not talking about traits (they also have issues), because swapping them is super easy and was never annoying to me. I didnt need it with arc, it was just nice to have.

    Can't give you an official answer there, since Anet didn't say anything about that.My guess? Because Anet didn't think it through enough.Maybe they are capped because of their Database, similiar to how we can only have a certain amount of bag/bank tabs until we're capped. But we won't know until Anet talks about that limitation.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:Yeah, I'm talking about Q4 2019, where Anet intended Build templates to be the big money maker. Systems targeted at a small percentage of the playerbase just don't do well.

    Thats because the system is bad, not because it may or may not be targeted to a small percentage of players.Anet took away a
    working
    and free option so they could sell a template system (its not even templates) that to this day is a broken mess. My skills on renegade constantly swap places and this week i couldnt really play the game because i couldnt swap any traits on any of my classes. The entire system is broken and overly complicated. Thats why its not the big money makes.

    I don't disagree. In fact, I agree completely aside from the "not because..". The system is one, if not the worst system Anet has every created. Especially for revenants.It was still primarily intended for players that switch builds regularly and intended to be their big "new and exciting" feature for Q4. The system being bad and simultanously developed for a small percentage of players are both reasons why it didn't sell well.

    I've used Arc myself in the past, and also use the new system. Arc never crashed me only because I had a renegade build. But that still doesn't change the fact that it was intended to replace Arc.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Here I will make it simpler: if Raids being called "Raids" is a problem, how would adding multiple tiers of difficulty "fix it". The same players that don't try Raids because they are called "Raids" won't suddenly try them if there are multiple difficulty tiers because the perception is still there.Furthermore, the content that DOES have difficulty tiers has LESS development than the content without it. Is having agony as an unseen and unused mechanic such an important factor to drive players that exceeds Raids being called "Raids" and Raids not having difficulty tiers? You are putting way too much emphasis on Fractal mechanics driving players away.

    You just don't get it. I won't even bother anymore. If you can't see how there can be multiple factors, and how people have different factors that can make them stay away, I don't know how to help. I give up.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    Original post:

    Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.

    So from August 2019 to February 2020 we didn't get any development on PVP, WVW, Fractals or Raids. (6 months)Back in August we got a single 2vs2 PVP mapPrevious non-OW content was on June 2019 (Raid) or 8 months agoIf you want to count for WVW, Warclaw was on March 2019 (11 months)Strike Missions is an entirely new "game mode" added to the game replacing both Fractals and Raids.

    ...June 2019 Ahdashim, non OW contentJune 2019 Dragon Bash, non OW content. FestivalAugust 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. FestivalOctober 2019 Build templatesNobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content...Where is the timeframe of only OW content? Where? Tell me, back up your claim. Where is that timeframe?

    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP? The last ones didn't at least, maybe they will tie e-specs to other types of content but I really really doubt it.

    Lol. Sorry, but just no. Your logic would also make them WvW content, since you can get them there. I mean, they're not required in OW either.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released.

    What thing for the minority? You mean the minority that was already using a much better and feature rich build system that was replaced by a predatory over-priced system? Build templates wasn't aimed at the minority, that "minority" was fine with the tools they already had. Q4 was the worst quarter in GW2 history, it didn't have ANY PVP, ANY WVW, ANY Fractal and ANY Raid content. It's adorable to blame the "minority" that got nothing for their content as "not paying off" but the reality is that "minority" got nothing in Q4 2019, and you still blame it! All while the "majority" got 2 easy mode Living World episodes in Q4 2019. That was the content driving GW2 in its worst quarter.

    Build templates were definately aimed at the minority. Arc doesn't change that. Q4 was the worst quarter, the big money maker didn't make money because it was aimed at a playergroup that don't seem to drive revenue. SMs still aren't OW.

    I really hope they don't spend too much time on those systems that only benefit those small communities that don't increase revenue.

    We'll see what the next Road Map will be like, but I believe it will be another inclusive one.

    Hyped for the next road map. Bet there will be no raids. Probably Fractal / Festival / LS / maybe Legendary templates?

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released. I really hope they don't spend too much time on those systems that only benefit those small communities that don't increase revenue.

    Can you please reference the financial quarter you are referring to? Because last I checked, the steep decline of the revenue came pretty much during and after a period where nothing but open world content was released for over 1.5 years and nothing besides open world content was promised for the future (this includes lack of an expansion announcement, which just tanked revenue instead of continuing the steady decline).

    Last fractal release is 1.5 years ago: Siren's Reef (slowing release cadence down to 1 fractal per year, now even slower than that)Last raid wing was released 1 year ago: Key of Ahdashim (same as fractals, slowing release cadence down to 1 raid per year)

    We have since seen a continued decline, both in total earnings as well as YoY in earnings with a short recovery rise for Q1 2020, 12.530 billion KRW (approx 10.4 million US $), up by ~10.5% from 11.3 billion KRW (approx 9.38 million US $) in Q4 2019. Down by ~23.4% YoY from 16.3 billion KRW in Q1 2019 (approx 13.5 million US $).

    Also not factored into those numbers for Q4 2019 are build templates. Which are far more likely to see use in a more dedicated crowd who have actual need of multiple build and equipment slots (and going by the threads on who actually uses build templates on the forums, this assumptions holds true). While they might not have sold as well as hoped/expected, they certainly will have affected Q4 of 2019. One dare not even think about what that quarters result would have been without.

    Yeah, I'm talking about Q4 2019, where Anet intended Build templates to be the big money maker. Systems targeted at a small percentage of the playerbase just don't do well.Could you show me that "nothing but open world content was released for over 1.5 years" timeframe? I've still yet to see that timeframe.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:I'm not backtracking. The systems aren't needed in T1, but still drive people away because they exist. Same way the term "Raid" drive people away, or how "Corona"-Beer had losses because of the virus. It doesn't matter if the system isn't used in T1, players will still stay away based on perception.

    They exist but aren't even visible, how do they drive people away? Going in circles doesn't help anyone, but you already disproved this so I'll simply move on. The truth of the matter is that content with difficulty tiers, had LESS development than content without them. And as you just said, just like the mechanics of Fractals for some reason drove players away, the word Raids also drove players away, so it's not like difficulty tiers would help much, would they?

    Multiple reasons why people are driven away can exist at the same time. The existence of one doesn't nullify another one.Difficulty tiers can help more people into certain content, but complicated sounding systems like agony can throw away that benefit.How are the systems like agony not even visible? You can clearly see it. It is even integrated into a whole gearset that was created for that reason.

    But still, running content that isn't fun just for a high reward is also a reason people don't play content, regardless of how hard or easy said content is.

    That's hardly relevant when comparing the release pace of content with difficulty tiers versus content without them. Remember your original argument was that Raids failed because they didn't have difficulty tiers. You just put a another nail on that argument by saying Raids failed because they were called "Raids".

    I wasn't the one mentioning the high rewards, they were part of your argument. I just simply comented on that line.Like I've said before, multiple reasons can drive people away. I'm not sure why you're pretending that there can only be one reason.Raids not having difficulty tiers is one of the reasons. Raids being called "Raids" is another one.

    Build templates are content and most likely the reason for the Q4 failure. Only because you can't "play" it, it doesn't mean that the devs had to spent plenty of time developing it. It is still content. The whole swiss tournament system is content, even though it is technical.

    Then we'll agree to disagree here. Build Templates is NOT content.

    Guess we'll have to. I also consider Swiss and World Restructuring which still hasn't released content.

    Going through
    I'm still wondering where those mystical 6 to 14 months of only OW content are.

    The exact number of months will depend based on what you call "content". I gave the actual time frames since we got anything other than OW content in my first post of this thread, showing the lack of development on anything other than OW in this game. Something that seems to be changing with the latest road map, and hopefully will continue in the next one.

    I've reread your post, but there's nothing about a timeframe of only OW content. I can see the separation of the different gamemodes, but not the time where we have gotten "exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content")".

    More content as in content.

    We've been getting the same amount of OW content as we always did. Why do you need MORE of it? Isn't the release cadence of episodes and new maps enough for you? It's everything else that needs more attention and hopefully they will get some love too.

    Where have I implied that I only want OW content? I don't consider things like E-speccs, Mounts and similiar stuff OW content, but if you do, fine.

    So yeah, I hope they release more things to enjoy catered towards the majority / things that pay off for Anet, unlike templates and raids, apparently.

    Apparently these "things for the majority" didn't pay off for Anet judging by their latest reports. We'll see if the new, more varied, direction continues to increase revenue or not.

    Those things for the minority also didn't pay off and gave us the worst quarter since GW2 released. I really hope they don't spend too much time on those systems that only benefit those small communities that don't increase revenue.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have swt foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both trainigmng himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    Kay, now let me do the same for you:I rather ruin my own gamemode by not listening to differing opinions, than give up my pride. I'll continue walking the same path until everything relating to my content burns to the grounds, instead of seeing the mistakes I've done.I will berate and lecture anyone that doesn't belong to my echo chamber. I will not listen to anyone outside of my echo chamber, it doesn't matter if their opinion is valid, since they're an outsider, no matter if they're new or a veteran player. Others just can't be right, my opinion is all that matters.

    Here is the difference though:My arguments and assumptions are based on experience, yours are not. Maybe you'll be able to spot the difference. I have explained why easy mode raids would not have been a solution. Even with hindsight it is clear they would not have been (unless factors like more resources for the mode were given, which they were not). On the contrary, strikes have clearly shown that easy mode raids would not have helped.

    The reasons for the failing of raids are many, most of which can likely be atteibuted tohe lack of content. Thisbisbnot raks unique in this game and can be seen accross game modes and time frames.

    Only things I've heard so far from you are opinions that are based solely on having raided.Your experience in raiding doesn't help when trying to find out why people that haven't raided before aren't taking steps into raids.You're arguing as someone that is a raider and only listing reasons of the decline inside the raid community.Lack of content is a reason for decline, but why did it start declining? That's what I'm arguing, the gamemode is not attractive to a large amount of players.You fail to see why SMs and easy modes are different.

    You again forgot the part where I mentioned that I've lead tons of trainings of completely new players all the way from fresh blood beginners to all 7 wings clear veterans (granted, for many it took months).

    I know why SMs do not work for raid prepartion, and i can extrapolate why easy mode raids would not have worked. The main reason being: the actual mechanics behind raids are not the main issue for players having a hard time when they start raiding.

    You're still not getting it. This isn't about players that are already willing to raid, they already do the first step to raid.This is about why players don't start at all with the current raids. How to get them to raid.

    You can extrapolate all you want, but you're still not asking the people why they don't raid. You know, those sideliners?

    @Raknar.4735 said:It would still interest me to which "failure" you're alluding, though. I've set foot plenty of times into W1-3, and never failed to kill the bosses. The only failure I see is how disappointing parts of the raiding community turned out and how berating they've become.

    Where did I mention you failing? I refered to what you said. If you consider running W1-3 a success, more power to you.

    The other part I eluded to was your very opinionated stance on an issue you are clearly inexperienced on. Going further and assuming that if this behavior was a commom occurance for you, I would not have wanted you around in any of my squads.

    I mean, running W1-3 succesfully when there was nothing else, so clearing the latest raid + every other wings weekly is something I would certainly call succesfull, unless you only consider speedrunning or something else succesfull. After all, there were no other wings to clear at that time.

    I wouldn't want to join any of your squads, you actively seem to dislike anyone with a different opinion. I mean, you've got a very opinionated stance yourself about issues you clearly don't seem to understand, as you yourself actively played part, and are still continueing to make a gamemode even more undesirable.

    Well I guess we are then finally in agreement on something: we will never raid or do instanced content together.

    Given you are not interested in this content and have not been an active part of it, except lecturing on the forums, there would be no risk of this anyway.

    We'll surely won't meet in any of the current raids, if Anet doesn't change anything about them.Careful now if you ever enter a PUG SM though, I may be there to get the rewards, just like the raven ceremonial gown. But I doubt it, given all the time you spend here arguing with different people.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have swt foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both trainigmng himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    Kay, now let me do the same for you:I rather ruin my own gamemode by not listening to differing opinions, than give up my pride. I'll continue walking the same path until everything relating to my content burns to the grounds, instead of seeing the mistakes I've done.I will berate and lecture anyone that doesn't belong to my echo chamber. I will not listen to anyone outside of my echo chamber, it doesn't matter if their opinion is valid, since they're an outsider, no matter if they're new or a veteran player. Others just can't be right, my opinion is all that matters.

    Here is the difference though:My arguments and assumptions are based on experience, yours are not. Maybe you'll be able to spot the difference. I have explained why easy mode raids would not have been a solution. Even with hindsight it is clear they would not have been (unless factors like more resources for the mode were given, which they were not). On the contrary, strikes have clearly shown that easy mode raids would not have helped.

    The reasons for the failing of raids are many, most of which can likely be atteibuted tohe lack of content. Thisbisbnot raks unique in this game and can be seen accross game modes and time frames.

    Only things I've heard so far from you are opinions that are based solely on having raided.Your experience in raiding doesn't help when trying to find out why people that haven't raided before aren't taking steps into raids.You're arguing as someone that is a raider and only listing reasons of the decline inside the raid community.Lack of content is a reason for decline, but why did it start declining? That's what I'm arguing, the gamemode is not attractive to a large amount of players.

    You don't seem to ask yourself why raids have a low population, just how it ended up having a low population and declining.You fail to see why SMs and easy modes are different.

    @Raknar.4735 said:It would still interest me to which "failure" you're alluding, though. I've set foot plenty of times into W1-3, and never failed to kill the bosses. The only failure I see is how disappointing parts of the raiding community turned out and how berating they've become.

    Where did I mention you failing? I refered to what you said. If you consider running W1-3 a success, more power to you.

    The other part I eluded to was your very opinionated stance on an issue you are clearly inexperienced on. Going further and assuming that if this behavior was a commom occurance for you, I would not have wanted you around in any of my squads.

    I mean, running W1-3 succesfully when there was nothing else, so clearing the latest raid + every other wings weekly is something I would certainly call succesfull, unless you only consider speedrunning or something else succesfull. After all, there were no other wings to clear at that time.

    I wouldn't want to join any of your squads, you actively seem to dislike anyone with a different opinion. I mean, you've got a very opinionated stance yourself about issues you clearly don't seem to understand, as you yourself actively played part, and are still continueing to make a gamemode even more undesirable.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:snip

    Let me translate your last post because they are getting lengthy:I have spent the last few years doing nearly nothing as far as the content I am giving advice on. The one or two times I have swt foot in it I did not enjoy it. I am unable to see the failure in myself, as such it has to be due to other reasons, one being lack of easy mode raids. I will berate and lecture an active player of said content who has spent years with both new and veteran players alike, both trainigmng himself and others, knowing better than him.

    That's you in a nutshell.

    Kay, now let me do the same for you:I rather ruin my own gamemode by not listening to differing opinions, than give up my pride. I'll continue walking the same path until everything relating to my content burns to the grounds, instead of seeing the mistakes I've done.I will berate and lecture anyone that doesn't belong to my echo chamber. I will not listen to anyone outside of my echo chamber, it doesn't matter if their opinion is valid, since they're an outsider, no matter if they're new or a veteran player. Others just can't be right, my opinion is all that matters.

    It would still interest me to which "failure" you're alluding, though. I've set foot plenty of times into W1-3, and never failed to kill the bosses. The only failure I see is how disappointing parts of the raiding community turned out and how berating they've become.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:
    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    You know what? I'm giving you the "could have in the past" bs. There. They could have.But they didn't. You reap what you sow. That's the entire point.Easy modes could have saved raids, but now it is too late. With enough players playing those, more development time could have been invested. But it's too late.

    Raids got "killed" by both the raiders that didn't want easy mode and Anet listening to them. Lack of support and current spending on that type of content is the result.

    I don't see Strike Missions as a "bridge", like Anet said, they're a restart of a content type that didn't interest many players due to several reasons.

    First, easy mode raids would have achieved the exact same thing that strikes do. You still seem not to have understood that the gap between strikes and raids would have been just as present with easy mode raids. The last step remains in both cases: find people who can teach you. That does not change. What does change is that strikes are new content, or rather as "new" as one can hope, which at least encourages players to jump in initially.

    So the mere comment that easy mode raids would have fared any different than strikes is already nonsense. Unless you argue from a position of someone who is clueless about the content and has never accompanied players through the entire process of novice to experienced raider.

    Second, as far as they could have done things differently in the past: not with the resources devoted to the content which where present in the past. Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    Looks like it is you, who doesn't get the reasoning for easy modes. It's not only to get people to play the harder modes, but to create content at all.Why do you think WoW and FFXIV do have easy modes?To make players go from LFR -> Normal -> HC -> Mythic?Most people that play LFR don't even play the other difficulties, yet Blizzard can still happily devote development time to that content. Because there's an LFR and a normal version, Blizzard is able to produce content for Mythic players. They can create content that is played by every group, therefore the Mythic version isn't a drain on the game.They don't have to create completely new environments or boss designs or scipted bossfights, they just adapt numbers and add a few mechanics for the Mythic versions. Sometimes even adding a new phase.Same thing for FFXIV and their situation with savage raids. They can produce savage difficulties for HC players, because the raids themselves are being played by people.

    and both of those games feed the players throwaway gear for the gear threadmills.

    Gear threadmills which gate the harder content which makes both content design as well as implentation a lot easier.

    Oh and fun fact, both WoW and FF14 have vastly bigger teams on instanced content.

    If you are suggesting that there should have been more resources devoted to instanced content and that would have helped? Yes, I fully agree.

    The gear treadmill and throwaway gear don't matter for the mechanics, only for the numbers. In FFXIV you can also forge pretty good gear once a raid releases, so that you don't have to repeat the whole grind.

    WoW and FF14 are also bigger, so it's normal to have a higher headcount on all teams.Fun fact: FF14 is focusing more and more on different things like "Ocean Fishing", just simple Open World stuff.

    I'm suggesting you don't understand the reasoning behind the different difficulties in those games. I'm also suggesting that the teams were big enough, but the focus missplaced to sate the hunger of a small percentage of players.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Sounds familiar? Anet is currently trying the same with SMs, but the wrong way. Instead of having story bosses with different mechanics reappear in SMs, SMs should also have different difficulties, each starting with a laughably easy version that can be hotjoined into like Shiverpeaks Pass.

    Because the hot join feature has been working amazingly well. Oh wait, the LFG is still the primary way groups form. I guess all those players who wanted automated group fibders were idiots then? Remeber when that was an argument for raids and peopöe accessing them? Just as useless.

    Ah yes, the LFG is working great, that's why the current raid population is not lacking at all! There are always groups around and I can do anything I want!

    It has of course nothing to do with players not being able to beat the content after hot joining.Oh, what's that? It worked for Forged Steel? Nonsense! That can't be possible!

    @Raknar.4735 said:There were plenty of people working on raids. They said about 6 people? I doubt that is the truth, unless you think all of those 6 people are able to create sound, models, environment, boss mechanics, spell designs, etc. I mean, Maclaine Diemer would have been part of the team, since some of the Boss music like Gorseval was made by him (and his team). So only 5 left, right?So yeah, it does pose several interesting hypothethicals:Were the 6 people mentioned really all that were involved in raids? Or did they also allocate dev time of sound, models etc. teams into raid content, but didn't count them as active developers for that specific content?

    I was by amount of content released and time between releases. I don't even have to get into the official mentioned developer numbers because the amount of content released speaks for itsself.

    Oh? A game that isn't focused on raiding, where it is a niche content, has a high waiting time between releases? And that time gets even longer after the developers notice a large amount of players don't play that content? Color me impressed!It would still be fun to know how many devs were actually part of raid development, instead of that number "6" I've somewhere heard about.

    @Raknar.4735 said:How many people are actually in those OW content teams, if you remove everyone that is doing sounds, modeling etc.?

    Pride is such a frivolous thing sometimes, always getting in the way. I wonder who the clueless one is?But that's over anyways. This harvest is over, and the raid crops aren't looking good.I wonder, will the next harvest fare any better? Will the farmers and the workers on the field learn?

    Yes, and know it all sideliners who have no experience with the content giving their 2 cents is just as useful now as it was years ago.

    Here is a suggestions:Start playing this content. Get good enough to train others. Train others and then get back here and make the same claims. Very unlikely you would because you'd actually understand WHY easy mode raids would not have worked.

    I have played the content in the past, not the first time you gave me similiar advice. Do you know what that made me do? It strengthened my stance on not playing said content again. Nice going there, keeping me away from the content! You must be proud of yourself. You've even burned the fields behind you.

    So no, I'm not following a suggestion of someone who is actively destroying his own gamemode by driving players away with his behaviour because his pride gets in the way. I'd rather play content that I deem fun and isn't full of people trying to force their opinion on others, instead of actually understanding the reasoning why those players aren't playing that content.

    You've done a good job ruining the farm, I will not plant my seeds anywhere close. No good can come when farmers misuse their fields.Call me a sideliner all you want, but I can still see the crop you harvested. It doesn't look healthy, maybe you've used too much pesticide?

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:
    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    You know what? I'm giving you the "could have in the past" bs. There. They could have.But they didn't. You reap what you sow. That's the entire point.Easy modes could have saved raids, but now it is too late. With enough players playing those, more development time could have been invested. But it's too late.

    Raids got "killed" by both the raiders that didn't want easy mode and Anet listening to them. Lack of support and current spending on that type of content is the result.

    I don't see Strike Missions as a "bridge", like Anet said, they're a restart of a content type that didn't interest many players due to several reasons.

    First, easy mode raids would have achieved the exact same thing that strikes do. You still seem not to have understood that the gap between strikes and raids would have been just as present with easy mode raids. The last step remains in both cases: find people who can teach you. That does not change. What does change is that strikes are new content, or rather as "new" as one can hope, which at least encourages players to jump in initially.

    So the mere comment that easy mode raids would have fared any different than strikes is already nonsense. Unless you argue from a position of someone who is clueless about the content and has never accompanied players through the entire process of novice to experienced raider.

    Second, as far as they could have done things differently in the past: not with the resources devoted to the content which where present in the past. Which poses an interesting hypothetical: How big would the outrage have been if the devs had announced: "Oh by the way, we are now reducing the open world teams by 1 so we can have more people work on instanced content."

    Looks like it is you, who doesn't get the reasoning for easy modes. It's not only to get people to play the harder modes, but to create content at all.Why do you think WoW and FFXIV do have easy modes?To make players go from LFR -> Normal -> HC -> Mythic?Most people that play LFR don't even play the other difficulties, yet Blizzard can still happily devote development time to that content. Because there's an LFR and a normal version, Blizzard is able to produce content for Mythic players. They can create content that is played by every group, therefore the Mythic version isn't a drain on the game.They don't have to create completely new environments or boss designs or scipted bossfights, they just adapt numbers and add a few mechanics for the Mythic versions. Sometimes even adding a new phase.Same thing for FFXIV and their situation with savage raids. They can produce savage difficulties for HC players, because the raids themselves are being played by people.

    Sounds familiar? Anet is currently trying the same with SMs, but the wrong way. Instead of having story bosses with different mechanics reappear in SMs, SMs should also have different difficulties, each starting with a laughably easy version that can be hotjoined into like Shiverpeaks Pass.

    There were plenty of people working on raids. They said about 6 people? I doubt that is the truth, unless you think all of those 6 people are able to create sound, models, environment, boss mechanics, spell designs, etc. I mean, Maclaine Diemer would have been part of the team, since some of the Boss music like Gorseval was made by him (and his team). So only 5 left, right?

    So yeah, it does pose several interesting hypothethicals:Were the 6 people mentioned really all that were involved in raids? Or did they also allocate dev time of sound, models etc. teams into raid content, but didn't count them as active developers for that specific content?How many people are actually in those OW content teams, if you remove everyone that is doing sounds, modeling etc.?

    Pride is such a frivolous thing sometimes, always getting in the way. I wonder who the clueless one is?But that's over anyways. This harvest is over, and the raid crops aren't looking good.I wonder, will the next harvest fare any better? Will the farmers and the workers on the field learn?

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:Instanced 10 man content with class roles isn‘t popular in GW2, not played by many and therefore developed less and less, who would have guessed that?Add to that, that some raiders didn‘t want easy modes to push raid popularity and make them more accesible, so that Anet has more reason to develop raids.

    Strike Missions, which are nothing more than Raids with 1 boss, will also not solve the problem, since players will not get familiar with the mechanics of the old raids through them.

    You reap what you sow, raiders against an easy mode.

    Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

    One thing strikes have shown clearly is:
    • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
    • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

    To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

    Also please don't give me the: "oh but they could have in the past bs." Raids as is were barely seeing any resources development wise. Adding more layers would have simply delayed past raids even more beyond the comedical release time frames (and probably cancelled some completely).

    What "killed" raids is simple: lack of support of the content to justify players who enjoy it stick with the game.

    You know what? I'm giving you the "could have in the past" bs. There. They could have.But they didn't. You reap what you sow. That's the entire point.Easy modes could have saved raids, but now it is too late. With enough players playing those, more development time could have been invested. But it's too late.

    Raids got "killed" by both the raiders that didn't want easy mode and Anet listening to them. Lack of support and current spending on that type of content is the result. Simple, really. With basically no one playing them, why invest even further? Part of the raiding community made it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I don't see Strike Missions as a "bridge", like Anet said, they're a restart of a content type that didn't interest many players due to several reasons. They've already tried a variety of different SMs, and even a scaling instanced mission. Let's see what sticks.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @"Aizza.4950" said:Strikes aren't raids. They're an absolute joke that bring no true challenge into the game. They don't teach people how to get into raids at all

    Changing their name to Strike Missions doesn‘t make them not be raids. Else ESO would not have raids.Also those „absolute joke“ raids are there to bridge non-raiders into raids, so making them as „challenging“ as raids is unreasonable.Jokes also seem very fitting for this circus.

    You can call them whatever you want, fact is they don't help transitioning into Raids at all. And why? Because with the exception of the chains on WoJ and the green circles on certain bosses you can ignore any mechanic all together. I have literally never seen a squad doing torches on Boneskinner. You can just stack on the boss and overheal. WoJ in last phase is just another effect overload without any substance. Freanir is Shiverpeak Pass 2.0 with a few extras that make no essential difference. Fallen and Claw are dangerous only in the last phase, but it's rather a dps race than a mechanic. And cold war, well it's basically open world trash mobs with some champion bosses and a legendary that again is just an overheal dps sponge. CMs on Forged Steel are the only thing that requieres a bit of coordination, but it's hardly something that makes you better suited for raids.

    Upcoming Strike Missions might become more challenging, who knows. But in terms of teaching you how to do actual raids the current instances won't help at all.

    Another funny thing is how many casual players avoid the "harder" strike missions completely. So again it's less a question of beginner friendlyness rather than honest ambition to improve. There are enough videos and guides out there on how to do Wing1-7, and if you are truly interested in doing them Strike Missions are redundant and useless.

    It might feel conciliatory for a casuals to think Strike Missions are an alternative to raids, and that is nice, but really their gap in difficulty and mechanics is so significant that to this day any raid training still takes place in an actual raid wing. And that certainly speaks for itself.

    Strike Missions will not work as a bridge.

    Yes, they could. But they have to be crafted completely differently. First of all these fights need to have slower pacing (exception Cold War), but with mechanics you have to respect and that actually punish you if failed. They have to be slower because many casual players have bad combat movement. With enough repitition that will improve, and so the requiered mechanics will become easier and easier until one realizes that the time has come to try an actual raid wing / boss.

    For example while WoJ is a bit more difficult than other Strike Missions it is by far too fast paced. It's a barrage of information squeezed into very narrow time windows, it's almost impossible to properly process it. And some mechanics are meaningless, like the spikes or the winds the boss casts. Whats their point if they hit you like a wet noodle? Then in the last phase it unloads gazillions of huge orange AoE balls into your face, but all you have to do is finding a safe place on the outer part of the platform. It's childish design that doesn't help a player acquiring new insights on how to play better.

    And overall the bosses should have a little less health, so that dps rotations do not dominate over learning mechanics.

    Guess we'll have to disagree then. I really don't think SMs will be able to be a bridge to current raids. The current raids themselves are the problem. Trying to sell an undesirable product by creating another that is somehow linked to the first rarely works.

    Also, many players have bad combat movement. Not sure why you think that's a trait of most casual players, when playing a game casually doesn't mean you're bad. The truth is those are just simply bad players. They are everywhere, PvP, OW, Raids, you name it. Being casual =/= being bad.You will also not get the majority of players to repeat mechanics and wipe over and over again. That's simply not fun for them and they will ignore the content. That's especially true for casual players, players that generally don't invest a lot of times into their games.

    There's a reason why Soulslikes and roguelikes, where death and repeat is predominant, are a niche compared to other games.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @"Aizza.4950" said:Strikes aren't raids. They're an absolute joke that bring no true challenge into the game. They don't teach people how to get into raids at all

    Changing their name to Strike Missions doesn‘t make them not be raids. Else ESO would not have raids.Also those „absolute joke“ raids are there to bridge non-raiders into raids, so making them as „challenging“ as raids is unreasonable.Jokes also seem very fitting for this circus.

    You can call them whatever you want, fact is they don't help transitioning into Raids at all. And why? Because with the exception of the chains on WoJ and the green circles on certain bosses you can ignore any mechanic all together. I have literally never seen a squad doing torches on Boneskinner. You can just stack on the boss and overheal. WoJ in last phase is just another effect overload without any substance. Freanir is Shiverpeak Pass 2.0 with a few extras that make no essential difference. Fallen and Claw are dangerous only in the last phase, but it's rather a dps race than a mechanic. And cold war, well it's basically open world trash mobs with some champion bosses and a legendary that again is just an overheal dps sponge. CMs on Forged Steel are the only thing that requieres a bit of coordination, but it's hardly something that makes you better suited for raids.

    Upcoming Strike Missions might become more challenging, who knows. But in terms of teaching you how to do actual raids the current instances won't help at all.

    Another funny thing is how many casual players avoid the "harder" strike missions completely. So again it's less a question of beginner friendlyness rather than honest ambition to improve. There are enough videos and guides out there on how to do Wing1-7, and if you are truly interested in doing them Strike Missions are redundant and useless.

    It might feel conciliatory for a casuals to think Strike Missions are an alternative to raids, and that is nice, but really their gap in difficulty and mechanics is so significant that to this day any raid training still takes place in an actual raid wing. And that certainly speaks for itself.

    Nothing new to me. Strike Missions will not work as a bridge. Difficulty scaling stages would have been far better to learn the boss mechanics, but some raiders are against those.

    Not sure if it has to do something with ambition to improve, or rather just not enjoying that type of content at all. Those who are interested in raids can find out how to do Wings 1-7, but that's just a small portion of the population. Most "casuals" will not try the current raids at all in the state they are. Anet are trying SMs to be a bridge, but like I've said plenty of times: It will not work. The current raids just don't work for the majority and that is the reason we aren't seeing any new releases.

    You can fault "casuals" all you want, about their "lacking ambition" or w/e, but that will not get you any raids developed. That's like saying people are at fault for not buying your product, instead of realizing that your product may be faulty or just not something many people want to buy.They just play what they enjoy and don't care about the other content. Maybe they avoid the harder ones because they're just not fun for them? Nothing to do with ambition.

    I also don't see many "casuals" trying out SMs currently, I've just noticed some in Forging Steel (which doesn't seem to be a Strike Mission Anet hasn't called it that once) because you automatically join it, but most are just the typical average players, raiders, PvPers, WvWers and OWers alike. Some bad, some average, some good.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:Instanced group content just doesn't seem to be popular hereThat's because there is no instanced group content outside of (most) story dungeons which is aimed towards the more general casual player base. It simply doesn't exist.

    But there is nothing about the structure of that content which turns away these kinds of players. The issue is that whenever the Devs. want to design instanced content they somehow seem to take an increase in difficulty as a requirement when it really shouldn't be.

    I remember the Devs. of another game releasing a reworked version of one of the outdated raids for an event aimed at casuals and I often times saw people in the chat writing stuff like "I wish actual raids would be like that" so a general interest to play this kind of content was there even among those who usually wouldn't go anywhere near it and I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same for GW2.

    I think the game should have some instanced content for both 1-5 and 5-10 player groups aimed at the casual part of the playerbase just like I'd also like to see some OW maps where the difficulty of the events is on paar with your average raid content, I think there is a lot of untaped potential here.

    I agree, instanced content aimed towards the more general casual players could work. That's why Anet is exactly trying that with Strike Missions and Forging Steel.It will however not work as a bridge to the current "Raids".

    Guess I should have said something like "organized" instance group content, or something similiar. What I mean is instanced content where you have to have specific roles and wait for them in LFG until all the correct roles are found, together with boss mechanics that make the whole group fail if one person does a wrong move. Waiting for a group or individuals + Individual responsibility during a bossfight is something people stay away from, if they can ignore or let someone else do a mechanic, they will.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:You're completely ignoring that aside from the easy tiers, Fractals also is gated inherently by agony resistance. It has many systems in place that make starting into that content awful. Yes, I know you don't need the resistance from the get-go, but it still makes people not care about the content.

    I'm not ignoring anything. As you said, you do not need any agony resistance to play the "easy tiers" so your argument there is invalid. Also, Fractals is the highest source of gold in the game so that's a good reason to run them.

    Except that's completely wrong. It doesn't make it invalid, since people still see the systems needed to run fractals. Many don't even bother starting because of systems like that. Same way how the term "Raid" scares people off, so games like ESO have tried renaming them into "Trials".If it is the highest source of gold in the game, but few run it, isn't it pretty telling? Where's the fun? Rewards alone are not always a good reason to run content, same thing with legendary armour in raids.

    It's not completely wrong unless you ignore the fact that those systems aren't even needed to play the "easy tiers" you said it yourself and now you are backtracking for some reason. The "systems" aren't used unless you reach at least T2 in Fractals, and even then only barely. You don't need anything more than a "dungeon build" to run Fractals.

    I'm not backtracking. The systems aren't needed in T1, but still drive people away because they exist. Same way the term "Raid" drive people away, or how "Corona"-Beer had losses because of the virus. It doesn't matter if the system isn't used in T1, players will still stay away based on perception.

    But still, running content that isn't fun just for a high reward is also a reason people don't play content, regardless of how hard or easy said content is.

    I don't know if they have changed direction. The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    The massive revenue drops were due to the lack of varied content. If for 12-14 months releasing exclusively open world content was working and was successful, why the sudden change at the start of 2020, and why did the director that focused on open world exclusively left the company silently. Probably because his
    latest
    direction wasn't working. (I know he's been director for a long time)

    It wasn't exclusively OW content though? Just look at build templates, the huge blunder quarter. That system just didn't pay off, since it was targeted at a small audience. I doubt Ahdashim helped in Q2.

    It was exclusively open world content for about 6 to 14 months (based on what you might call "content") build templates isn't content.

    Build templates are content and most likely the reason for the Q4 failure. Only because you can't "play" it, it doesn't mean that the devs had to spent plenty of time developing it. It is still content. The whole swiss tournament system is content, even though it is technical.

    It also matters what people can actually buy for revenue. Not many buy things developed for a small %.

    Going through https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release I'm still wondering where those mystical 6 to 14 months of only OW content are.

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    Now that PVP and WVW restarted. Now that we get Strikes and Fractals are under development, we'll see if the revenue will start going up or down. There was already a hint of going up after they started their changes, so there is hope.

    Yeah, revenue going up, now that we know a expansion is on the horizon with more content and less raids. Not the bleak future with only systems like build templates to milk some players.

    You mean more varied content like, more PVP, more WVW, more fractals, and strike missions instanced content that for a change has a good release cadence. For WVW not so sure though, what they give is barely there but maybe the future is gonna be better and revenue will climb higher.

    More content as in content. More stuff to do, more systems to explore. The gamemodes are just a part of the new content. So yeah, I hope they release more things to enjoy catered towards the majority / things that pay off for Anet, unlike templates and raids, apparently.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:You're completely ignoring that aside from the easy tiers, Fractals also is gated inherently by agony resistance. It has many systems in place that make starting into that content awful. Yes, I know you don't need the resistance from the get-go, but it still makes people not care about the content.

    I'm not ignoring anything. As you said, you do not need any agony resistance to play the "easy tiers" so your argument there is invalid. Also, Fractals is the highest source of gold in the game so that's a good reason to run them.

    Except that's completely wrong. It doesn't make it invalid, since people still see the systems needed to run fractals. Many don't even bother starting because of systems like that. Same way how the term "Raid" scares people off, so games like ESO have tried renaming them into "Trials".If it is the highest source of gold in the game, but few run it, isn't it pretty telling? Where's the fun? Rewards alone are not always a good reason to run content, same thing with legendary armour in raids.

    I don't know if they have changed direction. The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    The massive revenue drops were due to the lack of varied content. If for 12-14 months releasing exclusively open world content was working and was successful, why the sudden change at the start of 2020, and why did the director that focused on open world exclusively left the company silently. Probably because his
    latest
    direction wasn't working. (I know he's been director for a long time)

    It wasn't exclusively OW content though? Just look at build templates, the huge blunder quarter Q4. That system just didn't pay off, since it was targeted at a small audience. I doubt Ahdashim helped in Q2.

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    Now that PVP and WVW restarted. Now that we get Strikes and Fractals are under development, we'll see if the revenue will start going up or down. There was already a hint of going up after they started their changes, so there is hope.

    Yeah, revenue going up, now that we know a expansion is on the horizon with more content and less raids. Not the bleak future with only systems like build templates to milk some players.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:Except we know Fractals are still in active development, can't say the same about raids, aside from Strike Missions. Maybe without the tiered fractals, they would be just as dead as dungeons? Who knows. Instanced group content just doesn't seem to be popular here

    Yes they started working on fractals again some... months ago. That is still almost 14-15 months without ANY actual Fractal development. Yes they are in active development NOW, but they haven't been for many many months, more than we are without Raids - 12 months just this month. So the idea that "difficulty tiers" was somehow the problem behind Raid development is defeated by the mere fact that content WITH difficulty tiers didn't have any kind of content development for more than a year, while a content WITHOUT difficulty tiers just reached that point now.

    But this isn't only about Fractals and Raids as the entire game's activities have been neglected the last few quarters, they only changed direction in 2020, I guess the massive revenue drops were a slap in the face and they are beginning to turn this ship around and not have open world content exclusively.

    You're completely ignoring that aside from the easy tiers, Fractals also is gated inherently by agony resistance. It has many systems in place that make starting into that content awful. Yes, I know you don't need the resistance from the get-go, but it still makes people not care about the content.

    I don't know if they have changed direction. The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

    So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

    It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Aizza.4950 said:I'm just convinced Raknar isn't good enough to raid and is salty because he just whines about making them easier lol

    Nice Ad hominem. I've raided in the past in a static, when only W1-3 where released, baited by the legendary armour to play content I don't enjoy. Then I've stopped raiding after asking myself why I should play content that I don't enjoy, since I've left WoW for exactly that reason: a focus on raiding content.

    But what do I know, I guess a raider that uses ad hominem attacks instead of actual arguments knows better. Atleast I can recognize a meme-version of a Dhuum text ;)But your response is pretty much one of the reasons why people don't enjoy that content. You reap what you sow.

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