Quadox.7834

No, that is clearly not the reason consume plasma was added. That might at least have made 1% sense if plasma had been added with PoF for example, but it wasn't.

Thanks for the irrelevent comment

It seems obvious.Explain then.

What boons need reduction? Protection and stability boons got reduced less than half their original times in the pvp version. the only thing the mesmer main might have to really complain about is the 2.5 secs of resistance. Thief has no real practical way to enhance the length of the boons like boon best, and they have to successfully steal from a very evasive class.Thief "extends the boons" by getting lower cooldown on plasma with improv+swindler's+sleight of hand. the end result is the same - more boons. Boonbeast has boon extension instead. It's not broken.Thematically, maybe the phantasms are the same material as ghost's, and MAYBE that's how mesmer's craft them (phantasms).Yes, the tooltip/name is okay. But the point is that the effect of the plasma (boons) is not set in stone. Nothing tells us that plasma couldn't give chaos armor, distortion, or something else for example. Also it seems beside alacrity, mesmer's have some way or another to every boon in the game If it was "gain random boons" I would agree more, that is the theme of the chaos traitline. Also, when plasma was added in 2012, mesmer didn't have boons like it does now (bountiful dissillusionment didn't exist for example). It has not been a boon-heavy class historically. At the end of the day though, we can argue all day about how well it fits mesmer but gameplay and that is where the heart of my argument lies.

To both: You calling it "the only edge thief has" proves that it is much stronger than the other stolen skills, pretty much reinforcing my point. This thread is not about thief's general relative power level, I have advocated numerous times for nerfs to the other professions.

Consume plasma has been the strongest stolen skill since 2012. Lets look at the stolen skills: Mace crack- melee, removed with stunbreak Essence sap - needs target, can be dodged (though 2nd strongest stolen skill) Whirling axe - melee, long channel that you can get damaged in. Throw gunk - small radius, weak effect. Healing seed - stationary, has cooldown. Blinding tuft - short duration, s/d thief doesn't benefit much from stealth, harder to get because you need to steal on a thief, only benefits the opener/escape not mid combat. Ice shard - melee, can be cleansed Skull fear - long channel, can be dodged. Stolen skills are either attacks that need to hit a target (and either melee or slow cast), or defense with limited useability and cooldown like healing seed. This means that the thief must take risks and be think about it in order to get value out of the 2nd stolen still from improv, by going in melee range or doing a slow channel for instance. With plasma the thief just steals, jumps behind LoS, and uses it twice. Because it doesn't need to hit a target, doesn't need LoS, doesn't need melee, doesn't need to be spread out because it stacks so well. It scales too much with improv + sleight of hand + swindler's equilibrium. Doesn't matter the situation, thieves will steal on the mesmer to get the boons, any opportunity cost is lost because it is always worth it. Playing a squishier build (e.g. power chrono) feels like playing "the floor is lava" vs top thief (try facing sind, pain, etc). Consume plasma has recently garnered attention due to boonbeast, and surprise it is broken there as well. Just Imagine if there was a utility that gave all boons in the game, on a <20 second cooldown. Even thematically, why does mesmer stolen skill give boons while guardian's gives daze and engi's gives etheral field? That seems backwards. Now I am aware some will take this an april fools joke because it contains the words "thief", "broken", and "nerf". This thread is about one skill, consume plasma, not about the entire class. (Btw, do you like the clickbait title?)

ANET: posted in pvp general instead, this one can be removed / merged I guess. Consume plasma has been the strongest stolen skill since 2012. Lets look at the stolen skills: Mace crack- melee, removed with stunbreak Essence sap - needs target, can be dodged (though 2nd strongest stolen skill) Whirling axe - melee, long channel that you can get damaged in. Throw gunk - small radius, weak effect. Healing seed - stationary, has cooldown. Blinding tuft - short duration, s/d thief doesn't benefit much from stealth, harder to get because you need to steal on a thief, only benefits the opener/escape not mid combat. Ice shard - melee, can be cleansed Skull fear - long channel, can be dodged. Stolen skills are either attacks that need to hit a target (and either melee or slow cast), or defense with limited useability and cooldown like healing seed. This means that the thief must take risks and be think about it in order to get value out of the 2nd stolen still from improv, by going in melee range or doing a slow channel for instance. With plasma the thief just steals, jumps behind LoS, and uses it twice. Because it doesn't need to hit a target, doesn't need LoS, doesn't need melee, doesn't need to be spread out because it stacks so well. It scales too much with improv + sleight of hand + swindler's equilibrium. Doesn't matter the situation, thieves will steal on the mesmer to get the boons, any opportunity cost is lost because it is always worth it. Playing a squishier build (e.g. power chrono) feels like playing the floor is lava vs top thief (try facing sind, pain, etc). It feels a bit like playing the "gas station" class. Consume plasma has recently garnered attention due to boonbeast, and surprise it is broken there as well. Just Imagine if there was a utility that gave all boons in the game, on a <20 second cooldown. Even thematically, why does mesmer stolen skill give boons while guardian's gives daze and engi's gives etheral field? That seems backwards. Now I am aware some will take this an april fools joke because it contains the words "thief", "broken", and "nerf". This thread is about one skill, consume plasma, not about the entire class. (last thread got closed)

Ya, agree. But unfortunately the 15 sec ICD wasn't long enough last time and it can't synergize as well or at all with Mantra of Distraction for the devs to take it. The devs had the oprotunity to just increase the ICD last time and didn't for some reason. I dislike daze mantra anyway so imo it is good if it doesn't work with that. Edit: I like using daze mantra but I dislike the idea of instant ranged cc on low cooldown. It means that all interrupt traits have to be balanced around it so they become weak without it (same issue with mirage sword leap).

I missed that I think, was it about IoL being dependant on your boons instead of allies? I think that would be preferable but I have no clue about the PvE balancing.

Thanks LincolnbeardI hate to say this, but I can’t enforce how important it is not to be biased or too unrealistic. Unfortunately, the list of ‘consensual’ buffs you have make the Mesmer community look REALLY bias as a whole, even if it is a large collection of ideas. Realistically, I would like to see your original post split into 3 different parts: Buffs, Nerfs, Quality of Life/trait redo. I know you think the list of buffs is ‘consensual’. However, I’m sure if you took this list outside of the Mesmer forums, that concept would quickly deteriorate. Try not to take this as me telling you what to do though. The original post is yours do with as you will. I would just personally rather have a larger chance of the devs taking it seriously rather than just seeing it as a big list of buffs and scoffing it off. Splitting it into sections like this might help though. Realistically, I feel that 95% of buffs are not going to happen, quality of life changes/trait changes at least have a much larger percent chance of happening, lol and I hope they consider the nerfs (besides my chaos ones) instead of ruining traits like they did with EM. Xaylin and I both agreed that the protection from the shield phantasm is the best way the nerf chrono bunker and no one posted any disagreements. Did you disagree with it? Would you or Quadox mind going over why you didn’t like the suggested Signet of Inspiration change (If you didn’t or think it is nonconsensual, Quadox’s statement was very vague)? Right now you don’t have a screen telling you what buffs your allies have, making the skill’s effects unpredictable. Additionally, having the current SoI in effect places a lot greater role of how effective they are into the hands of the Mesmer’s allies instead of the skill level of the Mesmer itself. No other class is like this. Unless you have another idea to fix this issue? I don’t think I explained my shield change very good, so I am going to do it now. One of the main reasons ‘shield is clunky’ is that you now have to wait for the shield to return to you to get alacrity. Therefore, this messes up when you can reliably use SoI. When I said ‘split’, I meant put 1 sec quickness and 1 second of alacrity on the first wave and 1 sec quickness and 1 sec alacrity on the return wave. This is instead of 2 seconds quickness out and 2 sec alacrity in. This makes shield more versatile and fixes the clunky issue since you would no longer have to wait for the return wave to use SoI. Additionally, like the suggested SoI change, this is quality of life and not a buff. Therefore, it would be more likely to happen. Unless you have another idea? I wouldn’t mind confounding suggestions going back to a stun as well. However, they nerfed it for a reason. I suggested making it an ammo skill as a compromise. If the devs nerfed the former confounding suggestions, there is no way in hell they are going to make it both stun and an ammo skill like you want it to be, or even just a stun, which is why an ICD was suggested with the stun. Do you mind going over why you don’t like Curunun’s master of manipulation trait idea if you have time? What I consider quality of life/trait redos would include: Signet of Inspiration change, Tides of Time change, Elusive Mind change (trait redo), Portal (trait redo), Curunun’s master of manipulation if balanced properly), Crystal sands (depending on your skill idea), Confounding Suggestions (only if ammo skill or if stun with ICD), Mirage Advance: just reducing cast time is what I would call Quality of Life, Illusionary Ambush: just removing randomness, Ambushes: reduced cast times, Lingering thoughts reduced cast time, Restorative Mantras, and Protected Phantasms changes. Questionable/very, very weak buffsMirror Images?Desperate Decoy not canceling actions?Arcane Thievery?Temperor Curtain: after cast “Nerfs (only applicable in case of last patch revert otherwise scrap this)”I would personally suggest removing this statement as it is an unrealistic expectation for an entire patch to be reverted and as I said, chrono bunker will likely get nerfed weather we like it or not and chrono burst is a very strong possibility. I would say mesmer community is the least biased of all professions.I already said this numerous times but here it is again, go to some other profession forums and you'll facepalm to how unrealistic and op some suggestions are.I always give thief forums examples, when pof was released they wanted 1800 or 2000 rifle range, instagib backstab, 15 endurance cost each dodge on daredevil, 18 initiative traited, initiative full on weapon swap and so on.As for the first post, I don't consider it mine nor I consider this thread mine - most of suggestions aren't mine, like the post says it was a compilation of ideas thrown around by mesmers on forums - Curunen, Odik, Solori, Apharma, Quadox, Viquing, now yours and Xyalin. Sorry if I forgot someone, it was not on purpose.I think my only idea was to convert diversion to stun on confounding suggestions.I feel like you're pretty optimistic, I would say only some of the nerfs part will make it into the game. 1 - I agree with Odik and Quadox on that one, I think the right approach would be to rework chrono phantasms into something else first, this will not only nerf chrono but will allow later a buff to phantasms as a whole, join in Viquing staff phantasm idea and I think it would resolve most of the problems. 2 - I don't understand your SoI suggestion nor do I use SoI to know the implications of a change, so I'll leave that to someone who plays it. 3 - This one seems fine to me. 4 - I liked and added your CS suggestion, I think a only diversion is converted to stun will solve the previous issue, sw ambush and mantra no longer triggers stuns. Like the post says power mesmers setup the burst with F3 so this is a revert in that sense and still maintaining the random stuns at bay. 5 - Hadn't read Curunen's take on Mom, seems fine to me, might add later to the first post, currently I'm on phone and it's too much effort and might kitten something up. 6 - Yes, I think I've deleted some stuff on nerfs so I can erase the statement later. I also think the stun on f3 is interesting, I would say I like it more than the ammo suggestion.

not in EU you don't.. short guide on how to fix mesmer Tldr, but:Staff is also hybrid power/condi dmg. Reason for nerfing scepter power and buffing its condi is because the condi on it is much weaker. When scepter is used on power burst chrono you know something is wrong.Ferocity is alredy objectively one of the worst stats. i used scepter on power mirage too, don't see the problem?Yes, thanks for making the argument for me. condi mirages used SWORD back in the day so not a very good argumentBecause sword was better than any alternatives on all builds, even builds that thematically fit better with scepter like hybrid or condition builds. This told anet to buff scepter and/or nerf sword - both of which they did. not in EU you don't.. short guide on how to fix mesmer scepter is "decent", "hybrid" weapon so it can 1 shot if ur zerk/marauder.now: lets make a skill. u cast it on someone and, over his head appears big red skull (may be flowers, w/e), if u dont dodge after 3 seconds, u instantly die. is it good balance? u got 3 full seconds to dodge, no way u cant evade it. no its not good design/balance cuz there are always some circumstances when u will get the hit. no skill should be doing so much dmg. getting + by scepter 3, specially if mesmer has quickness is nothing fun to play against. u instantly lose half of hp, from 1 button press, plz no"but mom! not fun to play against should not be a reason to take my toys away" - wrong! not sure if i should explain why, but thinking like this is incorrect, and no single skil should do so much harm except scepter doesn't oneshot anything with 25 might stacks and marauder it does less damage than ranger with sickem and no might stacks does with maul, what goes for rapid fire which is way more from nearly double range its ok to post stuff but you're just blatantly lying and exaggerating to stellar proportions. as i mentioned in my own post revenant with enhanced daggers and impossible odds can do 20k damage with ONE skill with +50% cast speed (cus of quickness) scepter 3's damage was BUFFED and cast sped was REDUCED in one of the more recent patches so even arena net wanted the skill to be more like 100b. You can't say " scepter 3 does 10k damage " without mentioning its cast time, which is the second longest in the game and it's super slow. By that logic then they should just revert the " buff " on the skill and make it cast faster but do less damage ( and then it'll be arguably better cus u still get the same confusion stacks anyway but it's faster ) the skill is unusable without trait and even then it isnt even top 5 highest dmg skills in the game while being 2nd slowest cast time in the game, how about you have some objectivity the next time and not overlook whatever facts dont fit your narrative? if you're gonna make a statement that its dmg is high that means you're comparing it to the rest of the skills in the game but oddly enough not to the skills that easily outdamage it

not in EU you don't.. short guide on how to fix mesmer Tldr, but: Staff is also hybrid power/condi dmg. Reason for nerfing scepter power and buffing its condi is because the condi on it is much weaker. When scepter is used on power burst chrono you know something is wrong.Ferocity is alredy objectively one of the worst stats.

StG I find absolutely terrible, I would live it to feel like withdraw, roll for initiative or rev roll, but it just doesn't. Should be longer anf maybe "smoother". Mirage advance I would rather make it usable out of range and increase range, it is just unusable atm, which is sad because it has an amazing animation on asura. So bad compared to thief shadowstep. I have a feeling that the purpose of the mirage utilities was to give shatter mesmer more mobility in order to compete with thief and rev. There is a lot of fun mobility to be had with StG, advance, and IA. I agree StG could do with improvement, but having had it as a permanent slot on my utility bar for at least a year it has been extremely clutch in a lot of situations and often the difference between winning/losing a fight. Smoother - yes I agree - it should immediately interrupt and take priority over any other skill/action being used instead of how it sometimes is at the moment where it doesn't function until after some other action has been completed. This I do find a bit annoying in practice. One of the reasons I strongly disagree with any distance increase is because right now it lines up perfectly with axe 2 back through the mirror - actually axe 2 is slightly longer distance but still, if StG distance was increased too much you would have to run forward, maybe waste a dodge as well in order to make use of the mirror to cover a skill such as axe 2, heal or anything. I think the distance is fine being shorter and more in line with normal backwards dodge - as well as lining up well with axe 2 and Jaunt. And of course synergising well with Infinite Horizon when you break the mirror. Instead I think something like reducing cooldown to 20s, or maybe just giving it 2 ammo (symmetry with 2 ammo on axe 2) and see how that goes if it becomes more popular.Or an interesting change could be giving 1s stealth on backwards evade (and Reveal removal to always function), to then "surprise" when smashing back through the mirror. The fact that at the moment it is my preferred Deception utility over all the others means it isn't that bad, but like all Deceptions right now could do with small improvements.Ok. I would personally never take it over arcane thievery, SoM, SoI, IA, mantra, etc.

StG I find absolutely terrible, I would live it to feel like withdraw, roll for initiative or rev roll, but it just doesn't. Should be longer anf maybe "smoother". Mirage advance I would rather make it usable out of range and increase range, it is just unusable atm, which is sad because it has an amazing animation on asura. So bad compared to thief shadowstep. I have a feeling that the purpose of the mirage utilities was to give shatter mesmer more mobility in order to compete with thief and rev. There is a lot of fun mobility to be had with StG, advance, and IA.

The CS suggestion is tasty... <3 (probably too strong for an Adept trait) Big no no to the Chaos-changes, though. The minor traits already got a rather low uptime and I really don't see how Chaos is an issue per se. Thanks, Ya I personally don't really think it would be OP because 'shatter storm' is major adept trait in the illusion line that is just fine with a shorter cool down. Additionally, some people complained about this trait like crazy when it first came out because they thought it would be OP. However, now? Nothing with 'shatter storm' has changed and I definitely don't see people using it all over the place. Chaos Line: Ya I agree. However, I still think it is a good idea to delete 'Auspicious Anguish', replace it with Curunun's version of 'Master of Manipulation', and then come up with a new trait in the 'major adept' category. Additionally, we NEED to find some way to nerf Chrono bunker. However, if Curunun is right about the chaos trait line, then the only reasonable potential nerf from there would be 'Chaotic Dampening'. I mean . . . I highly doubt the devs would be ok with just nerfing 'Decent into Madness'. However, we really need to find a way to nerf Bunker Chrono ASAP before the devs do. If someone wants to nerf chrono bunker before the devs do without touching the chaos line then plz come up with some ideas. I'm fairly open to any ideas. Delete chronophantasmaNerf scepter 3 power dmg, buff the condi dmg.I would also decrease chaotic dampening protection to 3 sec.

This is also a valid point, I think, and one that could be adressed in the same way, as the idea for mirrors: Attach a cost to the destruction of clones and phantasms. When a clone or a phantasm is destroyed, it deals damage. Make that aspect traitable, so you can improve it for conditions or for power. ptsd

I only like confounding suggestions and critial infusion, plus maybe portal, rending shatter and mental anguish, out of all these.

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I'd like it being an Illusion skill. B) Just to clarify: I'm not arguing against a trait having different effects for each utility it affects. I'm fine with that. But I dislike traits which turn utilities into something that deviates too far from their original purpose or even contradicts it. This also applies to Blurred Inscriptions. If this trait didn't exist, nobody would perceive them as defensive skills. Distortions probably suits Manipulation skills way better than Signets. Yes, Mantras could fit into different traitlines. Domination was just an example. I strongly disagree on your assessment where Glamours could fit even if they didn't provide boons. They have a very distinctive theme - stationary mostly supportive and ethereal area effects - which heavily favours Chaos (Chaotic Dampening, Descent into Madness) over Domination or Illusions. I could see someone arguing for Inspiration. But you didn't do that, didn't you? ;) Mesmers can already maintain a very high amount of Chaos Armor. That's why it has been nerfed in the past. But it's self-only. Group CA would open up more support builds - even outside of Chronomancer - but be less problematic than the old BD because it is more restrictive. For Portal I suggested lowering the overall CD at the same time (and nerfing other aspects at the same time) to make it more usable in-combat. It would lose strategic value in WvW. But it would be way more fun in most other scenarios. Nobody fancies being a port bot and I personally wouldn't miss it at all. On the contrary... You'd actually need more Mesmers in WvW by default. Point taken on Null-Field. Cantrips are a totally different topic, though, considering they still got Mist Form. This is indeed an issue. But why make it worse? ANet clearly ran out of ideas - or time, who knows - when it came to the last big trait rework. They should have never placed four (until they removed Temporal Enchanter) utility traits into one traitline. It's insanity. That's why Inspiration feels so cluttered and it's already pretty important because of the condition removal it brings. The thing is, that there is no easy fix to this. As we have seen ourselves by our discussion: Many skills could go into different places. There is no single right solution. The important thing is to have an overall vision for all of them and not to change them individually. I just strongly disagree on Glamours being placed in anything but Chaos or Inspiration.The point (which is sort of why mantras and signets were brought up) is that the nature of the trait oftentimes depends on the traitline it is in, rather than which utilities it modifies. For example the mantra trait gives healing because it is in inspiration. In the same way, glamours can, with a bit of effort, basically fit in any traitline. Will prob. edit this comment and add more later.

Yeah, rework/remove chronophantasma then see what happens to chrono and balance accordingly

Now, this is the point were I'm getting tired, to be honest.How does this aid your point of view? And what even is your point of view on Mantras? And how much does EA matter in this discussion? :#I just answered you, you said mantras could be moved to domination, and I point out that they are two of mesmer's most supportive utilities. In the past this could be solved by having multiple traits for the same utility category, now it is standard to fit the trait after the traitline theme instead. Mantras can fit in multiple traitlines and so can glamours.2 out of 4 Mantras are supportive. 2 out of 4 Mantras are offensive. Why I feel they could fit into Domination? Domination is associated with Dazes. MoD is a perfect match. MoP deals damage and provides Might. Yes, IB no longer does so - pitty, because that's a theme Domintion could be improved on - but Domination is still about overpowering your enemy. This is also where MoC could tie in. Is this the only place where it could fit? No. But it could fit. Feel free to share your thoughts.MoD fits domination, MoP I would say dueling personally, MoC inspiration, MoR chaos. Might has mostly been a thing for illusions rather than domination. Either way doesn't matter.Escape Artist is a nice alternative for generating Clones on a stealth heavy build. Is it an awesome trait? No. But it is active, has a reasonable niche and is just a Master trait after all. Design-wise it is miles better than DD which is just a glorified target drop you can't control. I like that it is active, and it is definitely more fun than DD. But in effectiveness it is a joke. Maybe it would be a bit better if it gave you the clone when stealth ended instead.

That is clearly incorrect because cMirage is just as strong or stronger with chaotic interruption.

In what way

Proposal: add glamour trait (currently there is none) to domination line that gives back old portal duration. Portal is most 'annoying' when mesmer is also one of the best sidenoders/duelists. This forces mesmer to choose between being a tankier sidenoder like chaos mirage or bunker chrono, and being a roamer. Thoughts?