Quadox.7834

April 21, 2021

@Filip.7463 said:
@Quadox.7834 said:
@Filip.7463 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Filip.7463 said:Cant wait to see shortbow herald or shield mirage

I dont think shield mirage would be all that good.1 its a power based weapon, and power mirage aint doing good anyways2 shield is made with chrono in mind ( alacrity on shatter and potential for improved alac ), it has actually insane cooldowns, 35s and 40s, and if memory serves me right shield 4 goes on CD when sec charge is used so more like 40-45s cd on one skill and 40s on another.

Skill one is 35s and second 40-10s=30s. U know what happens when mirage gets sustain?

Go on Shorts' stream and he will tell you why he doesn't use shield on power chrono. You get rekt by thief, by shiro, by nades, by DH, by necro, etc etc.

Combine weapon from one elite spec with another.

yeah who knows, maybe it would even make mirage almost meta!!!

April 21, 2021

@voltaicbore.8012 said:
@Quadox.7834 said:
@voltaicbore.8012 said:
@Quadox.7834 said:
@"ellesee.8297" said:1v1 is the standard in 0 games lol.

basically every fighting game

I think you summed it up perfectly yourself - it's the standard in fighting games, which GW2 most certainly is not. You can probably scratch together a decent duelist build on any class in WvW where there is much more stat freedom, but in normalized spvp (and the ever-shrinking number of amulets), I think certain classes would be forced to sacrifice much more in order to attain a duelist level of coverage. The result would just be that some classes are inferior duelists, period.

"The result would just be that some classes are inferior duelists, period."Yes, just like how some classes are inferior in 2v2s and yet we already have that gamemode, so it clearly isn't a problem is it, you absolute slug.

Amazingly, you missed your own point again - 2v2 allows for your partner to cover some weaknesses - either directly providing something you're missing, or just running a superior duelist class. Good job, son.

I did not miss anything, you just don't know how 2v2 works. The fact that your partner can "cover your weaknesses" does not mean you can run any random shit build and be viable (unless of course your teammste is hardcarrying you). There is still a specific meta, specific builds that are better than the alternatives. A thief/guard comp is not exactly going to have a great time for example. Did you not see scourge in past 2v2/3v3 seasons? The game is as little balanced around 2v2 as it is around 1v1 - i.e. partly but not fully. Why would your partner be running a "superior duelist class", he would be running a " superior 2v2 class".

April 21, 2021

@JazzXman.7018 said:
@"Quadox.7834" said:Your suggestions of longer icd between charges and displaying charges in buff bar are great. In an ideal world, I would probably make it so that you could not use mantra while casting skills or while stunned. It would still have zero cast time. For example, like the Prestige on torch.

i see few problems here.

first of all you will touch the strengths directly linked to the instant nature (instant includes: can be used while cc-ed, can be used together with other skills, not reactive dodgeable), while mantra is balanced around being instant with having all the previously mentioned weaknesses to compensate for the 3 strong instant strengths. for example prestige has this hidden casttime (just no casttime-linked-animation, that is a difference to being instant, prestige is not instant the casttime is just very short and for that not mentioned in the tooltip, same with decoy) bc it doesnt need to interrupt anything for full value. prestige is since game realese not rly designed as instant skill and not balanced around that 3 strengths.

so just taking away strengths from mantra directly linked to the instant nature while not compensating will leave mantra too weak and inconsistent compared to other utilities (like a stealth and stunbreak from signet of midnight for example) and pb too weak/ inconsistent compared to other traits to worth taking for the higher effort and skilll requirement (since pb value is directly linked in having not clunky, not unhandy interupt tools with not too long cds you can bank on as a player, what is already pretty critical with the face your target requirement, what should be deleted from daze mantra in any case!). so you would need to compensate mantra in terms of deleting other weaknesses it currently has to compensate the deletion of 2 of the instant strengths and i dont see any compensation that wouldnt dumb down mantra/pb more than just leaving it instant, since the current weaknesses are also directly linked to the higehr skill requirement of the interrupt mechanic and a skill/ trait that only has good value not only when interupting randomly but interrupting keyskills in keymoments.

also we all agree, that the aggressive offensive uses of mantra/ pb, first of all the healrupt, is the most annoying and most impactful thing should have the biggest counterplay right? and you will delete a good part of the counterplay by deleting a lot of mantras defensive uses for the mes (defensive uses which are even important for a squishy class like mesmer), defensive opportunities which higher the costs of choice for what to use the mantra for, defensive opportunities which add harder decision making to the skill/trait for the mesmer and with that adds skill ceiling to the mechanic while also providing more counterplay to the offensive uses of the mechanic (mes cannot rupt your heal when he needs to use his cc skills and teleports to stay alive). so from the other pov of the side (when you fight against a pb/ mantra mes) you want to be able to pressure mesmer into defensive uses of the mantra to have a better chance to cover your heal by simply pressuring the mesmer into having cc skills on cd when you need to heal. so i would even say what you suggest with "not usable when stunned" is a lose lose situation for the target of the mes, for the mes itself and for the skill requirement of the mechanic by deleting harder decision makign wiht deleting opportunites (esp defensive opportunities).

since the abilies not "using while stunned" and "being able to use with other skills together" are mechanically inextricable (i think even in terms of programming, coding) its the same argumentation for the suggested "not usable with other skills" nerf. a nerf which also would need compensations by deleting other weaknesses from mantra/ pb what would most likely lower and not higher the skill cap.

also keep in mind when you delete half of the instant nature you also make the mechanic super clunky, clumsy and inconsistent. the face your target requirement on mantra proves that. face your target is usually not a requirement instant skills have, for the simple reason that instant skills have no automatic char alignment, that is simply not fair skill design, if they add face your target requirement oyu need to add automatic char alignment to make it not clunky.

if you want mantra to not be usable with other skills you need to give it some form of skill priority (a pretty high priority so it can rupt most other of mesmers own castskills instant to get the interupt right on time. like im midcast of gs4 berserkers and see someone wanna heal, i dont have the time to stow and then press mantra before skills with average casttime of 3/4 secs are already over, even when the target doesnt try to cover the heal/ doesnt try to counterplay my interrupt attempt). and how you organize priority to something like decoy and own heal then?

not to mention that anet never would take the effort to rework mantra that deeply, if anything they do the same half baked kitten they did with the face your target thing while not addign automatic char alignment, what makes mantra already insanely inconsistent buggy and unhandy, means they would only add a hidden casttime but dont add stuff that castskills need to work unclunky and consistent and what would make the whole interrupt mechanic stay viable. so they would prob only add hidden casttime but not add senseful (for an interupt tool) skill priority, bc too much effort... i mean complains and problems solved when mantra is unusable right? typical anet move i can see already

It's about opportunity cost, this change would mean that you have to choose if you want to insta interrupt from range or if you want to cast a berserker, instead of dong both at once. And you couldn't do axe 2 + daze mantra like so many mesmers do. There would still be defensive uses, similar to how the blind on torch 4 has defensive uses, but you would have to use it before you get hit by the stun rather than after you got hit. However, all this is in an "ideal world", I think they should only do this change if they would commit to doing a full rework to a ton of skills on other classes.

About the priority, CC skills already have priority and so would mantra. For example, gs5 cancels gs4 but gs4 doesn't cancel gs5.

April 20, 2021

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest
Ranger is not listed in meta, and it isn't even listed in great. Neither Ranger or Druid or Soulbeast is listed in meta or great.
Renegade is falling out actually. Condi Herald and Power Herald are making a big comeback after Mender/Marshal removal.
Nade Holo is fine. It's not even busted. Prot Holo is top Holo right now because it counters Scourge play.
Good DP Daredevils are kind of MVP right now to be honest. It is actually listed as #1 meta right now and I agree with that from what I've seen in recent AT play. Teams that have a solid DP Daredevil have a significant advantage vs. teams who don't.

superspeed is busted on holo (regardlesss if prot or nade)

April 20, 2021

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I swear 90% of this community had never walked into WvW during no-downstate events. If they had, they would clearly understand that no-downstate will be not only the biggest balance issue that PvP has ever seen, but it will likely be the nail in the coffin that actually does kill GW2.
So much of this game's balance, WvW and PvP alike, is within the dynamic that downstate creates. Downstate makes it so a single strong veteran actually has trouble 1v2ing two casual players. Without downstate, a single strong veteran will dumpster people in 1v3s and there won't be anything they can do to stop him.
Then you have the idea that with downstate, players are relatively safe from things like Rangers & Thieves & Mesmers, when balling together with certain classes/builds. The game has been balanced around this dynamic for 9 years. If downstate is removed, you will see Rangers & Thieves & Mesmers become actual God Tier classes that can 1v5 games alone, and I am not joking around about that.
Be very careful what you wish for because you just might get it.

wvw balance is fkn trash and the max damage is MUCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHH higher than pvp

April 20, 2021

@Tharan.9085 said:
@Luclinraider.2317 said:
@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:dood lol downed state did not primarily kill pvp

Actually if you go back on Youtube and watch alot of the "Pro" at the time teams, many of them said on their own stream that they were quitting because they felt downed state didn't promote competitive PvP.

Now if we try that on another game and lets say WoW Arena suddenly was cancelled and dead, and several pro's said "I quit WoW because Rogue perma stealth is a dumb mechanic that ruins PvP". I think we can both agree after the 15th pro saying the same thing, that rogue perma stealth ruined their competitive pvp scene.

Actually GW2 ESL died bc of bunker builds, not bc of downstate

U realise the reason nothing could ever die was bcs of Chrono quickness res?

April 20, 2021

@FrownyClown.8402 said:Removing down state will dumb the game down. Part of why gw2 is so great is because of its combat mechanics. I think res utilities should be removed. Low risk ressing is stupid.

If it is the risk that is the problem you could always make the range on res skills lower.

April 20, 2021

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Quadox.7834 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Worst thing about this disproportionate revive power is that it is becoming much much more difficult to actually win 1v2s. It used to be where a p+ player could consistently win 1v2s against gold opponents, but now all they have to do is land 1 CC at the right time against the p2 and that is enough time to res their downed partner with full health again.
Getting to be pretty cringe tbh.
Even in WvW lately, this revive kitten is pretty much the opposite of "no downstate". During "no downstate" events, stronger roamers can easily win 1v2s or 1v3s. But with this ridiculous revive meta, a strong roamer can rarely actually finish 1v2s because dudes revive each other too fast.
It's creating a bad feel to the game imo, where it feels like a handicap has been placed vs. veteran players to where sheer numbers just cancels your level of experience over other players. I don't like this effect personally.

This was the point of the downstate mechanic right from the start. People don't want to hear it, but Guild Wars 2 was at the start marketed as a more casual mmo, and the devs added the downstate mechanic because it acts as a sort of "comeback mechanic" for bad/casual players, so they wouldn't get punished too hard and get frustrated.

I completely agree with there being a downstate mechanic for that very reason as well as others. I do not advocate removing downstate by any means. It would cause way way way too many DEEP balance issues that people are not quite recognizing, the ones who do advocate removing downstate that is.

My point is that the downstate should make it "easy" for two casuals to beat a strong veteran 2v1, but it shouldn't "guarantee" that they can beat a strong veteran 2v1.

Yeah they should obviously not just remove downstate straight up, however I would love to see a no-downstate miniseason. To me, miniseasons are there to try shit out, and this seems like a perfect thing to try. No-rally would also be interesting.

April 20, 2021

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:dood lol downed state did not primarily kill pvp

Well to be fair, some argue bunker chrono meta did and a large part of that meta was quickness ressing downed teammates

April 20, 2021

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Worst thing about this disproportionate revive power is that it is becoming much much more difficult to actually win 1v2s. It used to be where a p+ player could consistently win 1v2s against gold opponents, but now all they have to do is land 1 CC at the right time against the p2 and that is enough time to res their downed partner with full health again.
Getting to be pretty cringe tbh.
Even in WvW lately, this revive kitten is pretty much the opposite of "no downstate". During "no downstate" events, stronger roamers can easily win 1v2s or 1v3s. But with this ridiculous revive meta, a strong roamer can rarely actually finish 1v2s because dudes revive each other too fast.
It's creating a bad feel to the game imo, where it feels like a handicap has been placed vs. veteran players to where sheer numbers just cancels your level of experience over other players. I don't like this effect personally.

This was the point of the downstate mechanic right from the start. People don't want to hear it, but Guild Wars 2 was at the start marketed as a more casual mmo, and the devs added the downstate mechanic because it acts as a sort of "comeback mechanic" for bad/casual players, so they wouldn't get punished too hard and get frustrated.

April 20, 2021

@Filip.7463 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Filip.7463 said:Cant wait to see shortbow herald or shield mirage

I dont think shield mirage would be all that good.1 its a power based weapon, and power mirage aint doing good anyways2 shield is made with chrono in mind ( alacrity on shatter and potential for improved alac ), it has actually insane cooldowns, 35s and 40s, and if memory serves me right shield 4 goes on CD when sec charge is used so more like 40-45s cd on one skill and 40s on another.

Skill one is 35s and second 40-10s=30s. U know what happens when mirage gets sustain?

Go on Shorts' stream and he will tell you why he doesn't use shield on power chrono. You get rekt by thief, by shiro, by nades, by DH, by necro, etc etc.

April 20, 2021

@Bazsi.2734 said:
@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
@Bazsi.2734 said:Lets add a new build that can
oneshot anyone from spawn
, so diversity clearly went up.According to your "theory" we just made the game better, while in reality we just killed it.There, that refutes everything. Shouldn't have invoked the power of math and absolute statements.
And this is why I won't bother watching lectures and whatnot to properly educate myself on chaos theory.

No no no friend... this is why you should educate yourself, because then you would understand what is happening in your own example, because this is exactly the kind of problem this framework is built to address!

(Also it's really not Chaos Theory Crozame just says that a lot for some reason idk why. It's important to know chaos theory in order to understand why this is how it works, but the actual mechanisms here that have been described are derived from complexity theory, thermodynamics and evolution in biology)

Lets add a new build that can
oneshot anyone from spawn
, so diversity clearly went up.

Look at the image above. In this system, the number of dots are mapped 1to1 with a color you can pick. You can pretend that the red color is the "one shot anyone from spawn" build that you added to the game. Instead of 5 dots per box at the beginning, there are now 6 per box, and the diversity indeed goes UP when you added the red color at this maximally diverse beginning state because the possibility space has increased.

Now the system is allowed to evolve...Red then begins to take over the system, making it approach the maximal homogenous state, the state in which all players are playing this one shot build, and the diversity will EVENTUALLY collapse to this homogenous state.

The time it takes for this to happen is what is important here, and this is based on the complexity of the system, where computations are occurring (aka players making decisions).

Let's say, players in this systems computation didn't know before time, that in a pool of 216 dots, that one of these colors one shots people from spawn. It would take 216 computation to deduce by the system to determine that this skill is the best skill. the above 216 players is just the total number of dots in the system as a whole...the entire process of things changing from different colors to one single color IS the computation for determining which skill is the best skill. If you were to add a color which is even stronger then red, and you allow the system to evolve again, the computation occurs again, This time it will take 294 computations...and the system will take even longer then before...

Think about this problem now in a system of a million colors (dots per box) and you as a player in this system is making a decision (a computation) and you wanted to find the one shot build. How long would that take you? You'd have to go through all million colors to find the build...once you find it your happy and smiling...but it just took a long time...as everyone else eventually finds the build they will also be happy and smiling...but you notice as more players are finding this color in the hay stack of colors you observe the diversity and the balance of this game is looking bad...and this is where people start to say that "red build should be nerfed!" because the red color is annihilating all the other colors, as people choose it over other colors.

That is the point...is the time it takes to find that one shot build is what the entire framework is about...that it is this very process of finding the optimal strategy which collapses a diverse system toward homogeneity...that process is dependent on the complexity of the system.

Okay cool but... rock<papers<scissors. It exists in this game. It messes this whole "iterate towards optimal homogenity" up. Whatever comes out on top, its counter will be played more, etc. Your model contains too many oversimplifications, it does not work. I can see how a sorting algortyhm or a petri dish with different strains of bacteria ccould be described by what you layed out, but the evolution of an MMO-s meta is a tad bit more complicated.Also the argument that more trash options would prolong the time it takes for players to find what works.... thats an argument against the unviable options. I don't want to waste time learning which part of the game I don't have to care about. Thats not fun. Every trait, every weapon, every skill must be useful in some way. If you cannot make a decent build that contains it, it has no place to exist.Games can be boiled down to a its rules, a special set of restrictions. These are mostly designed to fit well togheter, simply introducing more options and watering down the original ruleset just kills the game. It was certainly the case with ancient games like chess. So many variants exist, yet most people play the original, because even though it has the most restricting ruleset, it's the most fun.

So reiterating my original point: access to a new weapon is part of the elite-spec. It was designed like this for a reason, the game is balanced around it. You cannot simply give everyone everything and expect it to work without an ungodly amount of work put into rebalancing the whole game again. And if you don't care about balance(I got this feeling talking to @"Quadox.7834" that he doesn't, but let's hope I'm wrong), then we're talking past each other and this is pointless.

Making elite spec weapons reasonably balanced on core would not take "ungodly amount of work put into rebalancing". This is just flat-out wrong.
This change would improve balance. It would, for example, improve core engineer. Because one of the causes of imbalance is lack of options for core, i.e. the fact that especs have more options than core.

April 20, 2021

@bluri.2653 said:Horrible idea ?

give reasons ?

April 20, 2021

@JazzXman.7018 said:
@Quadox.7834 said:
@JazzXman.7018 said:
@Quadox.7834 said:No. Mantra is the problem, NOT powerblock.

i wanna disagree here, neither pb nor the daze mantra are a problem (pain mantra is a different story for sure). the max range instant cast cc mimimi is a too trivial look on the whole interrupt cc mechanic i think.

anet made since game release a clear line between hard lock down cc with casttime, main offensive purpose to pin down the target (preventing dodging, free movement and skill use) for hitting follow up dmg versus short soft cc (max 1 sec daze) which only has good value when interrupting keyskills in keymoments, which is instant for good reasons since its the weakest cc in the game not preventing dodges or free movement and skill use only for a short time (important the daze is not allowed to be longer than 1 sec, 2 secs daze is not an interupt focused cc anymore and for good reasons also not instant and the nerf of the daze duration from 1,5 secs to 1 sec on mes f3 and mantra was very good, just as deleting the instant stun on f3 was best balance change ever) and mantra as an interrupt tool is also instant bc gw2 is a very fast game with short average casttime of 3/4 secs.

the requirement to interrupt then also adds the higher skill requirement compared to other cc and dmg skills which have way more value on simple hit and also adds the needed counterplay to the instant mechanic (aside form the long mantra recharge what adds additional counter abilities to the inttant charges other skills dont have).

short! daze is the only rupt focused/ centered cc in gw2, since all other skill-use-preventing-cc-types (but also immob) have way bigger value when not interuting anything, means way more value on simple hit already. so interupting is not their main purpose (what makes sense since skills with reactive casttime/animation means decent castime/ animation cannot rly reactive/ interactive interupt castskills with 3/4 secs casttime since you have latency+human reaction time what eats a big part of that casttime already, so you only can rupt by precasting casttime-cc on guess/ expectation and the interupt attempt then has an instant counter with instant stow, means decent player with awareness will stow all your casttime cc to prevent the interrupt-trait proc by nearly 100%).

means lit having only dodgeable casttime cc in the game will delete interrupt gameplay from the game and traiting into pb will not be valuable enough since too inconsitent, too situational compared to nearly perma value traits like passive dmg modifier, too high risky, too high skill requirement to get the trait reward. why use such an situational, inconsitent, risky and high skill ceiling trait when you can just use a passive dmg modifier trait that gives value nearly permanently and you as a player dont need to think about that trait ever.

ppl who get interupted by casttime cc like torch phantasm, well animated and slow sword ambush leaps, warrior hammer skills etc (mes offhand pistol imo is too short casttime and too bad animation for an overly long 2 secs lock down hard cc stun skill on a burst class like mes btw, pistol is broken) rly should think about using their time to improve their awareness and mechanical skill instead wasting their time to cry on forum or discord to get something deleted i (and others i know) counterplay on purpose and successful vs all skill lvl mesmers all day long, even on classes i cant play that well and that also in outnumbered situations and when getting +1ed by a pb mantra mes. (generally spoken not directed to you quadox!)

while lock down hard cc (stun, knockdown ect, but also fear and taunt) can be a killer by itself, on simple hit already and for that ofc has a decent casttime and animation you can react to. and pb as one of the most creative, best desinged and balanced highest skill ceiling (interrupt-) traits even increase the need to interupt keyskills in keymoments for enough value from the trait. pb obviously was designed with an instant interupt tool like daze mantra in mind.

so the interupt mechanic has more than enough counters, just timed dodges is not one of them. but for that it has downtimes other (cast-)skills dont have.

higher skill requirement/ bigger effort to get the skill/ trait reward from the need to interupt instead big reward just on simple hit already
long 2,25 secs mantra recharge adds a vulnerable time to the mesmer he can be free pressured and easy be interupted even by casttime hard cc, has a downtime in impact on the fight for at least the recharge duration (if mesmer is forced to disengage to cover the recharge the downtime is even longer) or mes is forced to use other big cds like stealth, teleports to cover the recharge
no stow possible on instant skills (yes being instant by itself is not only a good thing, it has an inherent downtime of losing bait potential from not being able to stow. so you can bait the mes into wasting the instant cc with instant stow but the mes cannot stow to counter that, so when you work with human reaction time well you can easy make the mes waste the cc no matter how good the mes is, since that is simply how the human brain is functioning. and notice: you dont need to use your heal to stow-bait)
being interupted on keyskills in keymoments only requires a short temporary cover not like "value on simply hit castskills" which are way less situational (its always a good time to hit dmg for example outside of extremas like target is invuln ofc) and make the interrupt-cc-uses for the opponents more predictable (since it is quite obvious which skills in what situations have the most value to interupt for the mes), so a bit of the instant value (not being reactive dodgeable) is directly countered by the added higher ability to predict when/ for what the mes will use the instant cc from the need to interrupt keyskills in keymoments.
higher costs of choice since interrupt cc has a way bigger defensive part than the more offensive lock down cc. means you can easy bait mesmers rupt cds (but also teleports) by making him use it to survive, to interrupt/avoid your dmg and your hard cc. but ofc when you let a mesmer freecast and free rotate then you/ your team misplayed and god forbit that mes is not nerfed enough that it still has value when not pressured (in a duel where you facetank all burst and dont pressure out cds from the mes before you need to heal, alsoi admit that condi mes still has pretty oppressive and easy applied low effort condi pressure and signet of illusion what is needed to carry one dodge mirage is also not rly healthy and should be reworked)/ god forbit mes still has impact when freecasting :scream:

imo the only things the mantra/ pb mechanic needs in terms of healthy, skillful and fair balance/ design is to increase the cd between the instant daze charges around 1-2 secs, since it is a bit unlucky that the daze charge cd is exactly the same than the stow/ selfrupt/ normal rupt cd. an opponent should be able to get a skill he used to bait through before the second daze charge from mantra is rdy. also pls add the tooltip into the mesmers buffbar back so enemies can see that a mes has mantra charges rdy and how many.

but ofc pb/ mantra is annoying to deal with when we casually wanna brainless spam low cd high impcat skills and facetank happly and suddently a class like mes with an interactive interrupt mechanic requires you to enable your brain to counterplay it.

I agree with you that instant/very quick skills do have a place. Teapot, Floody, and some others probably haven't played many PvP games outside of guild wars because they are stuck in the mentality that you have to be able to react to everything. In other words, everything essentially needs to have 1/2+ cast time. Anyone who has played fighting games knows that this is not the case and that prediction, pattern recognition, mixups, and so forth, are key and valid. This is what we call "reads".
Rather than thinking that we must be able to react to everything, we should think about opportunity cost and risk. This is where you can argue back and forth, but I would say MoD is in the risk-zone of being "too low risk".
For me, MoD would not exist in its current form in my "perfect game state", however in the game right now there are many worse offenders.
Floody in Teapot's stream chat complained that if he baits mantra by stowing the heal, it still goes on 4 sec cooldown so he still dies. This is true, but what he neglects is that the
same thing
is the case if somebody tries to interrupt him with a non-instant skill. For instance 1. Floody uses his heal skill 2. I use greatsword knock 3. Floody either has to tank it, which puts his heal on 15 second cooldown OR he has to dodge the wave, which puts his heal on 4 second cooldown and he dies... as you can see, the result is similar.
Teapot's problem with mantra was that its failure depends on the Mesmer kitten up, i.e. in his opinion "you didn't play well, the Mesmer kitten up". In opposition to this, Teapot gave an example of what he called a "good interaction", which I believe was a Necro using Spinal Shivers on an Engi. Because Spinal isn't instant, the Engi can choose to dodge it. In return, the Necro can outplay the Engi on an additional level by stowing the Spinal. So we supposedly get multiple levels of mind games. Only, there is a problem with this - dodge is in fact, just like mantra,
instant
. So as long as the Engi dodges properly (at the very end of the Spinal cast), the Necro has zero chance to cancel his skill beyond prediction/luck. So we are in fact in a very similar situation as with MoD, namely that the Necro being able to stow his Spinal
depends on the Engi kitten up
. "The Necro didn't play well, the the Engi kitten up" (specifically, by dodging early for no reason).

yeah we are around 95% on the same boat i would say :) i just still miss why you think mantra is in the context of gw2 unhealthy/something should not exist (and i mean the basic, general game design, not that there is unbalanced/ powercreeped stuff or worse mechanics on other classes which should not exists bc ofc we dont wanna argue like justifying one unhealthy unbalanced bad desing with stuff that is even more unbalanced on other classes, i also dont wanna do that) why you think its not well designed for a game like gw2 with the overall short average casttime and when saying that instant skills are ok as long as not too strong by themself what a short daze clearly isnt etc, esp after all you said. mantra as interrupt tool, esp with a well designed trait like pb for me is the most skilled and challenging and fair and interesting interaction i could find in the game. and im a challenge player when i feel i get carried by something i dont have fun, so i rly observed hard if the instant mantra has those carry things overall and i know the interaction from both sides of the fight and that not only mes vs mes but also from povs of other classes.

my point is, that mantra in a game like gw2 (fast game with in average pretty short casttimes) is needed and not unhealthy or even broken how it is, and that it is ranged instant for good reasons, esp for skillful and fair traits like pb which rly require to not random interrupt whatever whenever but is highly tactical and already by itself very situational and not like a perma passive reward other traits provide or unhealthy like old ci trait where you could kill ppl lit with a random autoattack rupt. imo mantra/pb still has enough and fair counterplay, it requires skill to play and skill to counterplay it and that is exactly what we want to have more in the game and not less i think.

so esp when i read what you just wrote i dont get what you would change on mantra without making the whole pb interupt mechanic too risky, too less rewarding for the effort and skill requirement you have to put in on several lvls esp compared to other skill mechanics which are more consistent to nearly perma impactful with way less player effort and brainwork needed?

i atm still cant see any changes would be needed and would make mantra more skilled, except the 2 things i already mentioned (buffbar tooltip for mantra charges and bit longer icd between the daze charges). since i think that mantra/ pb lit are one of the best and most challening and interesting and fair desinged things in the game, and has already enough and fair counterplay. and that no matter what the state of other classes are, mantra is not only ok/acceptable bc atm other classes are even more broken, i think mantra is in general not broken, at least as long as you dont have broken interrupt traits or broken cc-spam-reward traits interacting with it (like old ci, old confounding, old lost time, or having too long daze duration on f3 and mantra). and all those things got deleted or nerfed already for good reasons and you never saw me complaining about any of that. even if all other classes would not have unbalanced stuff themself (the relation to other classes is irrelevant, since we ofc dont want to justify broken stuff on mes with even more broken stuff on other classes, that was never my point) i think the pb/ mantra interrupt mechanic on mes is well designed, fair and balanced and has exactly the counterplay abilities it needs to be fair, just them requiring a bit more active brainwork to counterplay than most other stuff in the game (but thats lit mesmers basic class problem in this casual game and why it gets so much hate and the more hate the lower the overall skill lvl and game knowledge gets).

tldr: so what would you change on daze mantra and where you see the problem?

btw i think the problem is not that they played only gw2 i think the problem might be, that they are too stuck in old slowmotion mmo styles where you couldnt even move while casting, games without fast action combat etc. the example with that game with global cooldowns esp made me think that

Your suggestions of longer icd between charges and displaying charges in buff bar are great. In an ideal world, I would probably make it so that you could not use mantra while casting skills or while stunned. It would still have zero cast time. For example, like the Prestige on torch.

April 20, 2021

@voltaicbore.8012 said:
@Quadox.7834 said:
@"ellesee.8297" said:1v1 is the standard in 0 games lol.

basically every fighting game

I think you summed it up perfectly yourself - it's the standard in fighting games, which GW2 most certainly is not. You can probably scratch together a decent duelist build on any class in WvW where there is much more stat freedom, but in normalized spvp (and the ever-shrinking number of amulets), I think certain classes would be forced to sacrifice much more in order to attain a duelist level of coverage. The result would just be that some classes are inferior duelists, period.

"The result would just be that some classes are inferior duelists, period."Yes, just like how some classes are inferior in 2v2s and yet we already have that gamemode, so it clearly isn't a problem is it, you absolute slug.

April 20, 2021

@Quadox.7834 said:
@Bazsi.2734 said:
@"miifi.2150" said:IMO 1v1 should be the absolute standard in every PvP game, how is there no 1v1 PvP in this game?Is my ego here the problem?I am genuinely confused how there is no 1v1 PvP in some games.

To have viable 1v1 builds available on every class, you have to design the game a certain way.You absolutely don't. 2v2 and 3v3, which are already in the game, aren't perfectly balanced with every class having a meta spot, yet this doesn't stop many from enjoying those gamemodes. So this is in fact not relevant.GW2 was absolutely not designed this way, PvP was viewed as interaction of opposing teams. Both game design and later balancing efforts aimed to make 5v5 the enjoyable, balanced experience.Teamfighting requires you to specialise into a role. Every class is better at different roles, for example a thief will never facetank the enemy damage in a teamfight, but it can outrun everything. This level of specialisation means some classes have the tools to 1v1, while others lack some of it, and a few unlucky ones cannot 1v1 at all.

1v1 in general is very basic and entry level PvP. This game aimed to be the new ESL hit(yeah i know, it sounds funny 8 years later, but they did start out with the intention), and serious&competetive PvP games usually revolve around competeing teams, so thats the enviroment the devs wanted to create with this game aswell.

"1v1 in general is very basic and entry level PvP" now this is just objectively incorrect and it is disappointing that some people chose to upvote a comment that contains statements like these.

"1v1 in general is very basic and entry level PvP. This game aimed to be the new ESL hit(yeah i know, it sounds funny 8 years later, but they did start out with the intention), and serious&competetive PvP games usually revolve around competeing teams"

Read this full quote again, surely you see how wrong it is.

April 20, 2021

@ButterPeanut.9746 said:
@"Quadox.7834" said:Okay, good discussion. Things that would need to be added:
Berserker burst skill for dagger (1 total)
More? Can't think of anything. Weaver dual skills don't depend on offhand. So far, seems very possible for expansion-worthy content.

You would also need to add tier 2 and tier 3 burst for warrior dagger on core.

Of course but that's not really a "new skill", it just has higher damage like, say, eviscerate. No new animations.

April 20, 2021

@JazzXman.7018 said:
@"Quadox.7834" said:No. Mantra is the problem, NOT powerblock.