Agrippa.1693

Valid for fractals and some raid fights (like KC) if phased fast and for top performance groups. Which brings me back to: yes, Power Reaper drops off at the top end. Not valid for anything else which is the norm for 90% of the playerbase and many other raid fights.So, valid for all fractals and any raid bosses that phases, really (which is quite a big part of the full PvE endgame)! And I disagree that you have to be top performance to push higher numbers with banner berserker than you would with power reaper, cause that same power reaper can be played poorly as well: enough 2nd lifebar examples out there, which makes your DPS plummet far more than poor banner placement timing would! (do compare apples with apples please). I agree, we did stray a lot from OP's topic, here. I actually even don't want shroud healing back (don't need it), I just want more competitive DPS, either for the power Reaper/Necro or even better (which in its essence is ridiculous that the Necro doesnt have one) for a condi Necro. Since the latest patches, introduced quite a few viable and even optimal condi options for ALL classes (next to the existing ones like Mirage, Ren, etc.), except again for that one class: Necro! Which, btw, thematically you (or at least I) would least expect it from! Whole different discussion, though (involving Epi, I know)!

Ah, I almost thought you'd forgot the banner warrior (Berserker), but there it is: 2 builds, both power and condi, outdps-ing the Reaper AND bringing banners. It's absolutely crazy.Btw, try it, it's fun to play, if you really want to talk about forgiving builds (@Cyninja.2954) ... Condi Firebrand is no support spec and I have already conceded that FB, in almost all its builds, is overpowered. Bannerberserker does not perform similar to benchmark in actual fights, not even close. Mostly since picking up and placing banners cuts into their damage significantly. Which you would know if you actually played the class in content. As to playing them, I do.Nothing comes close to Golem benchmarks ... but they (banner warriors) do come up with pretty sweet numbers (better than Reaper when played right), including picking up and putting down banners (in Fractals mostly only ones before boss fight, btw). But you know, because you play it!

Ah, I almost thought you'd forgot the banner warrior (Berserker), but there it is: 2 builds, both power and condi, outdps-ing the Reaper AND bringing banners. It's absolutely crazy.Btw, try it, it's fun to play, if you really want to talk about forgiving builds (@Cyninja.2954) ...

Nah, all craziness aside, they're absolutely viable, but that's not because of the shroud heals though, it's because they finally dis out at least SOME DPS (benchmarking 31k now), but still not enough compared to the other classes which all have at least 2 DPS builds benchmarking higher than the Power Reaper, and again the difference is not just a few percent, but quite a lot (up to 20%). The Necro (as a whole) just needs some damage buffs, which ANet was steadily doing lately, except for this last update. But I have faith, I still have faith :). And sure if they buff the Necro's dps, a different class will be bottom of the pack, but it's about time someone else took over that hated spot, The Necro has pretty much been there since launch now!

Warriors in zerker stance also don't get a second lifebar. I'm sure they would love that too.Wow, and another one that wants to keep the stigma alive ... Reaper shroud is NOT a 2nd health bar, unless you're a REALLY bad Reaper player.You're DPS is already on the bottom of the list ... and you want to use your biggest burst as a 2nd health bar .... Wow, just wow Power Reaper is probably one of, if not the easiest class to get into fractal content (and by far the most forgiving). The last time Reaper was undesired was over 6 months ago (and even then was fine given the 32k benchmark and its bursty damage). Even CM groups have no issue with it as long as you can put out the required damage (which Reaper can). So I'm not sure what you are talking about.I just commented this in another thread as well:May I ask how you compared the easiness of playing the reaper in the PvE endgame compared to other classes, have you played all other classes in T4 fractals (and raids) or is it just from hearsay? Cause I have played all of them in raids and T4, and I know words like easy, hard, etc. are subjective terms, but in my experience none in general is really that much easier or harder than the other.Because in the end it's all about knowing your encounters: Imo, ANet actually did quite a good job leaving a lot of RNG out of their PvE endgame. So once you're experienced enough in those encounters, you'll figure out that any class is easy enough to get near to its own top-DPS (not the golem benchmarks of course, but what's considered average top-dps per raid/fractal). And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all other classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20% more) DPS af course.

May I ask how you compared the easiness of reaching top-dps between all classes, have you played all other classes in raids and T4 fractals or is it just from hearsay? Cause I have played all of them in raids and T4, and I know words like easy, hard, etc. are subjective terms, but in my experience none in general is really that much easier or harder than the other.Because in the end it's all about knowing your encounters: Imo, ANet actually did quite a good job leaving a lot of RNG out of their PvE endgame. So once you're experienced enough in those encounters, you'll figure out that any class is easy enough to get near to its own top-DPS (not the golem benchmarks of course, but what's considered average top-dps per raid/fractal). And once you get to that point, I'm afraid it all boils down to what every class is capped to, and the Necro has for some kind of reason - which I still really don't understand - always (pretty much since launch) been at the bottom of the barrel, with all other classes having at least several different DPS builds (Power AND Condi) available outperforming the Power Reaper's DPS ceiling .... and mostly even bringing more support/utility to the squad/party as well (banners, blocks, stances, etc.), next to their significantly higher (up to 20%) DPS af course.

To be fair, necro is one of the easiest classes to play, and engineer one of the hardest. Easiest, hardest ... isn't that completely subjective? I might be a piano player and might find "difficult" (Weaver, Engi, etc.) but static rotations really easy to follow, compared to fighting against far more dynamic mechanics like not being able to be healed in Shroud but still always trying to get into it with 90%+ HP in order to get your Scholar bonus, where not getting it while doing your Shroud rotation is a REALLY big hit in the PReapers already low (lowest) DPS check. So you always have to know what alternative/delaying/cancelling rotations you have (DON'T stay in Axe :) ), in order to still get the most out of your DPS check.But again, subjective ... YOU might actually find that really easy.

Ooh, it almost sounds like a certain class that has its highest DPS possible with permanent Chill only! ... And then still benchmarking the lowest of all (sorry for misusing this subforum, engies, I feel for you too, but ANet at least tries to fix things for you with the latest update (yesterday)).If there's one class in PvE (endgame) that does not deserve to complain one bit, because of ALL the optimal (and mostly even compulsory) builds it has (and for a while now!), it's the mesmer!!! I dunno where you came from but I was responding specifically to someone who decided to introduce chrono using horribly situational numbers posted on a website that only deals with raids. And there’s not much similarity in your comparison as you think there is. And at least holos got something back. I’m still QQing on my side since prepatch and anet doesn’t seem to care.I'm talking about that same site giving us a very accurate depiction of the state of the PvE endgame in its optimal setting and actually giving ANet really sweet handles to balance to. But no, they hardly ever make use of that! Imo, ANet shouldn't balance to casual play or mediocre builds, or anything in the open world really! Always balance to your endgame and the maximum possibilities and capabilities of your classes/builds/etc. herein. Making it really frustrating if it's completely out of balance and stays like that for a long time! It's actually 101 basic gaming knowledge! ANet thinks differently about this or at least it looks like that, cause some of these godmode classes (in the PvE endgame) have been super-optimal for so incredibly long now. And therefore I was mentioning the mesmer as your prime example here. Although (frustratingly for them) now being very slightly nerfed every single balance update, they're still the pinnacle of optimal class picking with several different builds at their disposal (Support, Power, Condi (Mirage AND Chrono now, btw!)). While there are other classes out there that are suboptimal at best or even completely non-optimal in pretty much ANY PvE endgame encounter! I was giving the Necro as prime example here (again, sorry for misusing the Engi forums, but I could as well mention the Engi for this purpose, they're somewhat similar to the Necro in that regard). So in conclusion, the Mesmer mains should not QQ about getting nerfs at all, maybe they should actually wish for a complete gutting the next update, so they are up for (small) buffs in all subsequent updates thereafter.

Well, apart from PvP and still staying within the realm of high end PvE, what people do thoroughly enjoy is ignoring the fact how those high chrono numbers you speak of are only achievable under perma slow, only really being maintained in organised raid comps. Once you take out the slow, and because the chrono build that deals that sort of dmg doesn’t apply much or any slow at all, that supposedly high number shoots straight down to the 29k range. Which btw is worse than ~31k. If there’s slow (like in raids), sure fine whatever - otherwise, no-slow chrono has been nerfed repetitively for some time for no reason, to the point where core (and to an extent power mirage) is actually hands down better at casual open world/high-end PvE. Don’t just glance over the numbers posted on the SC website, I’ve found that it leaves out a lot of significant build-defining details (cleave, sustained dps, trash burst, etc.) and that it’s purely raid oriented. Just because chrono looks like it’s up there, doesn’t mean it’s like that throughout all of PvE or the entire game. Besides, I’ve been sitting on sub 31k for a while now, so I can say that I can feel for power dps holos right now. Ooh, it almost sounds like a certain class that has its highest DPS possible with permanent Chill only! ... And then still benchmarking the lowest of all (sorry for misusing this subforum, engies, I feel for you too, but ANet at least tries to fix things for you with the latest update (yesterday)).If there's one class in PvE (endgame) that does not deserve to complain one bit, because of ALL the optimal (and mostly even compulsory) builds it has (and for a while now!), it's the mesmer!!!

It's really weird: you would and should think of the Necro being an absolute condi king ... right?!?? Well in PvE it's actually benchmarking the lowest condi dps of ALL classes. All classes benchmark at least one condi build that puts out higher DPS than the Necro does... But for some kinda reason that's all fine for ANet, cause it has been for so long now! Edit: before anyone is going to explain, I know the whole reason IS Epidemic, it has the niche possibility to really pump numbers up towards all the adds your damaging. But in the PvE endgame (Raids, T4 fractals) it's really overrated, cause the endgoal is ALWAYS killing the endboss, not its adds!!! I can remember asking for nerfs to epidemic back when it was still 100%, so ANet could finally justify buffing the Necro, so it would become that condi King it so much deserves to be. Well we know what happened there, the fist part happened, they accidentally forgot the second part ...

Technically speaking, Reaper's damage output hasn't been touched. Yea, and that's the problem, Necro is STILL (since launch) the official lowest DPS class in the game! STILL!!! And I thought ANet was on their way of changing that (in their last patches), but no, full STOP again! Instead, it gets nerfed (not DPS-wise, although less reliable Scholar now) .... I really don't get it. Why has Necro never been allowed to come off that dreadful bottom DPS spot??? No it's not O.o I mean it's not OMGTOPDPZ but it's certainly miles better than where it was. I remember a time when it reaching a 27k benchmark was wow for Reaper, now it's at 31.2. That, combined with it's inherit tankiness, puts Reaper in a good place. Unless your talking base necro than ye, lowest dps of all.It is! Show me one class with its highest DPS build that benchmarks lower than the highest Necro DPS build (being pReaper with 31.2 atm).Let me make it even more interesting, show me one class that doesn't have at least 2 higher DPS builds than that of the pReaper. They ALL have!And yea, you're right, it was getting better, but like I said, with it's next patch ANet decided on a full stop again! I really don't get it.

Technically speaking, Reaper's damage output hasn't been touched. Yea, and that's the problem, Necro is STILL (since launch) the official lowest DPS class in the game! STILL!!! And I thought ANet was on their way of changing that (in their last patches), but no, full STOP again! Instead, it gets nerfed (not DPS-wise, although less reliable Scholar now) .... I really don't get it. Why has Necro never been allowed to come off that dreadful bottom DPS spot???

You simply haven't been around long enough ... The fact is that regardless of the game or the devs, I have YET to see a situation where a broken tool will be allowed to persist to maintain some sense of balance. That's only even more true in the case of a bug or a forgotten implementation, exactly what this appears to be. If you think Anet was actually to allow this or intended for it to work that way, then you really aren't very aware of how this game works. I actually agree with you that the healing on Soul Eater was out of line. But c'mon: you have YET to see "a situation where a broken tool will be allowed to persist"???... In this (PvE end-)game there are some concepts/tools STILL utterly broken, let me name just a few of them: Quickness, Alacrity, Banners, Spirits, Signet of Inspiration, etc. ... And the funny thing, ANet kinda acknowledged it even, cause they've changed it numerous times already and STILL haven't fixed it!!!But hey I understand why they slipped your attention, cause those are all tools that the Necro doesn't really have access to (or at least extremely selfishly and limited), so who cares, right???

BUT most importantly, are you asking yourself the right question here? Is it really meta you want to go after? Do you have a dedicated speedclear group (static), or one that's willing to sacrifice a lot to get there? What do you find fun to play? Do you pug a lot? Etc. These are probably questions that are far more worth asking than the one you're asking right now. And to help you with those kind of questions, I direct you to all the posts above :)

No. Minion master elite spec and Vampiric elite spec absolutely should be two separate specs. Its not like Blood magic and Death magic from GW1 are lacking in design space. On the contrary, they have a lot of design space available to them. I agree! If I would think of a Vampire spec, I would definitely link it to blood, and not death (Minions). And Vampire does fit a theme of degeneration unless it feeds itself: hence the punishing shroud mechanic idea I suggested. But could such a mechanic also fit in a Minion Master design? Maybe if you think in a sense of creating/maintaining powerful minions/golems from your own flesh and blood (life), link this to shroud in some way, and you have a theme! I wouldn't call it a vampire then, though :) It could. However the question isn't could it but should it? And I'm strongly in the camp of "NO!". I'm an Old Foggie when it comes to GW. I've been playing since Prophecies, a few months before Factions came out and I've done just about every build the necromancer had available to it in GW1. Like, if Anet wanted to they could technically design 2-3 separate elite specs around Minion masters all with their own unique design and feel. There is that much space for it. Also they could design like 3-4 Vampiric sets just from play styles of GW1. There is a wealth of design space they haven't tapped with the game that we should consider before hyper limiting our options like that. So for a Vampiric set there is more to blood than just life stealing. There is also Bleeding. Bleeding is a major part of the blood in GW1, self and bleeding others. Barbed signet comes to mind. There is also a strong blood for energy theme going on in GW1 that the spec used. And a Party buffer. The idea of using minions with Blood really didn't have much going for it. Some Odd synergies like with hexes that heal allies when they strike with an attack, but that's pretty minor. They also had dark pact but that was an outlier. Blood Magic was more about sanguinemancy then necromancy. In my opinion, the best option for a Vampiric spec would be a primarily offensive spec using bleeding to unlock power and inflict damage at usually close range. Touch skills was a pretty popular build early on in GW1, so keeping to that close range neck biter theme would work extremely well with them. So a sword. Minion master on the other hand exists in GW1, but not optimally. This one needs to embody the Death nova builds in GW1 that sent out large numbers of sacrificial and pestilent minions. Death magic was widely known for spreading disease and poison while also amassing an army. It wasn't defensive like it is in GW2. I was actually more thinking in the lines of: Blood of the Master and Verata's Sacrifice. They were actually really important skills back in the days for a minion master (on and off, cause it changed a couple of times, and I can know, cause I played from day 1 of Prophecies). They are definitely Death Magic, but the sacrifice was real :D, in order to heal your minions! Ow, and don't forget about Order of Undeath, although later in the game ... it hurts the Necro as well a lot, in order to get far more powerful minions!So, with flesh and blood, I don't mean blood magic, but more decaying yourself (death magic), in order to get more powerful minions!

No. Minion master elite spec and Vampiric elite spec absolutely should be two separate specs. Its not like Blood magic and Death magic from GW1 are lacking in design space. On the contrary, they have a lot of design space available to them. I agree! If I would think of a Vampire spec, I would definitely link it to blood, and not death (Minions). And Vampire does fit a theme of degeneration unless it feeds itself: hence the punishing shroud mechanic idea I suggested. But could such a mechanic also fit in a Minion Master design? Maybe if you think in a sense of creating/maintaining powerful minions/golems from your own flesh and blood (life), link this to shroud in some way, and you have a theme! I wouldn't call it a vampire then, though :)

A high risk high reward pure condi dps spec for the Necro, i.e.: Vampire. Where the shroud is actually punishing (eating away) the life pool instead of complementing to it in return for very high bursty condi dps.Although I do miss a real minion master as well, maybe it could be combined?

How do you even plan to do fractal CMs + T4 without Ascended gear? Tear of Alba only provides 15 AR so at worst you would need 130 AR (15 from tear, 5 from singularity) and never use up your singularity. And this is exactly what I mean with not focussing on the real issue at hand. Arguing over a small detail between brackets, which I indeed mistyped. My apologies. It should've been: (maybe even not all ascended). (Say exotic weapons, or even armor (pieces), you can still do CM's and won't even be shamed beforehand, just because you rolled the desired class.) The real issue imo is this whole class elitism META that we're in. And you know the weird thing is that I don't even care that much about elitism being a thing ... I kinda even believe it's human nature (as somebody else already commented in this thread), but that it's on such a core/base element of the game (almost comparable to IRL racism): is repulsive. And imo it's so dire these days, and so heavily locked into a real niche for such a long time now (at least for the PvE endgame), that the only way out is via ArenaNet!And again the options they have are imo simple: They either change the way classes are such a core/base element in the game: i.e. make it really easy to switch to any character/profession in the game with all the stats/etc. that you've unlocked previously (again with the help of a good template and unlocking design)Or they really focus on PvE endgame balancing, making all professions desirable in endgame content: in other words META, or even better: optimal. Hint: start by optimizing the ones that haven't been META/optimal for so long now! (just a hint of course)

I'm not even sure if Trevor agrees with me, but I've got a feeling his post primarily has nothing to do with the +5/9 infusions thing. But has everything to do that you are STILL pretty much required to play certain professions when pugging fractal CM's. And if you have one character that is perfectly geared (read: with +5/9) and happens to be your favourite character, but is also just not considered one of the elite professions, you're left with 3 options: Re-gear to a profession that is desired (i.e. an all-time elite profession: Mesmer, Ranger (since Druid), Warrior, Ele), which costs a lot even if you already have that (perfect) gear, but on a different character (profession). Imo, ANet could make this a lot easier for us when they finally provide us with a good template design!Use less than perfect gear (maybe even not ascended) and still choose to play one of those elite professions, while leaving your own preferred profession (your main) on the shelf ... Imo, ANet could fix that, by focussing a bit more on PvE endgame balancing instead of almost only on PvP and WvW (it's ridiculous how strong some professions are in the PvE endgame pretty much since launch already)Don't pug when you want to do fractal CM's. although a favourite answer for all those Mesmer/Ranger/Warrior/Ele mains out there, it's imo also the one real toxic/elite answer that you can give, and it's not going to change anything to this this very long-sitting unhealthy META in the PvE endgame, which is not even blacklisting whole professions in the game, but also the players behind them who happen to like these professions the most (calling them their mains): see point 1 for that!

just some:low HP: Why do Necros have more HP, good health, can cast long time marks and wells on the move and do their walking aoe of death run? I just want to remind everyone here (including ANet) that these kind of posts are only concerning the PvP gamemode.I.e. as a Necro main, I can see the Necro's potential, still (after a lot of nerfing already, but hey) in PvP and WvW. But that said, it's the WORST pick by far if we're talking about the PvE endgame (Raids, T4 Fractals, CM's, etc.). And history tells us that these kind of posts make professions like Necromancer be nerfed even further to the ground, which might even be deserved as well in gamemodes like PvP and WvW (again, they ARE still doing quite OK in PvP and WvW), but is (I can only believe) accidentally taken along the nerf road in PvE as well, making them even more terrible than they are right now in PvE (if that's even possible). The latest nerf to Dhuumfire being a prime example at that (the ICD in PvE was completely unnecessary)! Then I also like to give a quick reply on the HP issue (see quoted) concerning both Ele and Necro (and Warrior, Guardian, Thief). I'm a prominent supporter of a "one Health Pool fits all" change! Giving every profession the medium base HP. I know: this will effectively nerf my main the Necro. But, having quite some experience in the game, I see Health as the absolute worst defensive mechanic there is! Compared to active defences like blocks, invulns and (extra) evades it's really insignificant, and mostly only really helpful towards new players that first need to learn (telegraphed) encounter mechanics, before they can use their active defences skilfully. But imo, you should hardly balance to that group, and if you do, do it differently: i.e. by buffing/updating Vitality/Toughness modifiers, so you can at least choose to go more tanky or glassy, whatever you prefer. Now your only option is to switch profession ... which is a wrong choice, imo!

Wow, how individual people here are still thinking that they can (even slightly) change a community. It's really astonishing.It's common knowledge that how bigger a group, how more difficult it is to change it. And happily ever after, our GW2 community is quite big!The only ones that can REALLY change this community are the ones that sets the rules and boundaries of the universe that we play in ...And I can understand all the complaints from this community ranging from meta elitism, till not pulling your weight. I'm not surprised at all with huge differences between classes, ranging from some being upper gods and almost being mandatory in all fights/encounters up till some being literally rejected in parties even before a fight starts, because they're almost utterly useless!ANet, please wake up!

What you expect is an illusion. In reality, ... - put you're very arbitrary conclusion in here - Easy argumentation = easy argumentation! Imo not really adding to the discussion!Anyway, my glass sphere isn't properly working atm, I can't predict the future, so again, I would actually really like to see what happens if we do see these kind of changes, instead of a far more easier prediction on the barely ever changing culture that we have seen for ages now. On another note: Balance patch out .... we'll see if it changes anything ...

Maybe it's easier if I give an example in a Flavour of the Month setting:I expect the following, let's say March 2018, your optimal DPSer on paper would be a Deadeye, best boon share results would come from a Renegade and the biggest healing numbers comes from a Necro, etc. (obviously all sucked into a vacuum, because if I really have to specify a full detailed scope here, I'd might just apply at ANet straight away). Now the LFG might look like this:T4+CM's: Ren, BN (Blood Necro), 3 DPS (pref. Deadeyes) P+F+KP.But coming April 2018, it might be this:T4+CM's: Chrono, Druid, BS, 2DPS (pref. Weaver) P+F+KP. (looks familiar right?)But I expect that already after month 3, with the practical efficiency of an ever changing environment in mind, ppl are not even going to bother anymore, and will ask something like:T4+ CM's: Heal, CC, 3 DPS P+F+KPor:T4+CM's: Heal, 4 whatevers P+F+KPor just:T4 + CM's + recs P+F+KP I actually like the last examples far better than the first (very specific META-rized) ones! I have to say, this is obviously all theorycrafting, but something I would definitely like to see pan out.In a general way of speaking I've never heard an exciting ever so dynamic game is chasing ppl away. On the opposite: I have heard of a same ol' stuck (= current META) gaming environment, chasing ppl away!