Fortus.6175

Then you must not have played during the HoT meta of 2 bunker chronos + a tempest + thief + filler.

Why are you putting videos of PvE rotations with PvE stats, food and other effects and boons you probably wont get on a regular basis on a PvP match? How is an immobile, incapable of dodging or attacking golem a good representation of damage potential in a match where the opponents can move, attack or CC you? At the very least put a video of this in a PvP golem, with your own buffs, heck, I would take fighting the class AI bots they have in the PvP lobby.... Your video argument brings nothing to this discussion.

Eles are supposed to be jack of all trades as well, master of none, yet it doesnt get the same treatment that holo get, if you specc damage you have low to no mobility, sustain or teamfight presence since you will be blowing up quickly. If you go bunker, then still all of the above, except that now you gave up damage for sustain. Holos get their cakes and eat them too. CC, damage, sustain, teamfight prowes, side nodding potential, but most importantly; extreme disengage potential. Also, celestial stats give the same total number of stats than any other amulet, the extra stats was removed about 4 years ago which subsequently deleted eles from PvP.

This was changed a while back. If you add up all the stats from celestial, it would be the same total number of stats as any other amulet. In fact, celestial is missing expertise and concentration. Back in the day celestial did have higher overall total stats, but then D/D ele happened, cele was removed (about 4 years ago, which was the death of eles in PvP), only to be re-added in the current gutted iteration.

I've been running an aurashare staff tempest for a few seasons now and have consistently made it to top 100, even rank 24 at some point just playing that class.I would put it at B+, maybe even A vs some comps. Great when paired with high damage low sustain speccs like revs and necros, and ok in other comps. It is fun but it is free food for spellbreakers, holos and power thief builds (funnily, it can deal with condi thieves quite well and even pressure back), so when I see 2+ of those on enemy team, I just go DH to match their brain-dead speccs with my brain-dead one. Paired with a scourage it is nearly unstoppable, reaper to a lesser extend, and it really does cover all the weaknesses for revs. I'm looking forward to 2v2 queue. While I think ele's are still weak overall (except for that one condi weaver build), this build allows me to both have fun with my fav class, and feel useful in teamfights. As long as Im not on a sidenode, I'm good.

Personally I cant wait to get attacked by my own teammates for playing staff tempest despite the fact that it just received MASSIVE buffs to my build :D

I will keep saying this every time; patch is better than no patch, the problem is that they dont come often enough. I'm glad that Anet is deciding to patch PvP. Whether it is enough or the right changes, thats another topic. I just find it odd that a videogame receives praises for doing something I think should be baseline, it just doesnt right with me.

/reads OP "huh, no ele notes? of course :( , nobody knows what they are"

I thought we werent allowed to use hp% programs. Yah, rangers are busted, they were my "i need to do daily quickly and I wanna do it in 2 games or less". I just find it funny that we have the same few builds for months and months being top dog (spellbreakers/holo/mirage/soulbeast) and its alright.... but the moment eles or guardian see the day light in any way they get hit harder than Floyd.

You must be playing necro then. But that aside, yes, SpB is still overtuned.

It is ok, it is on the table, along with: It is all coming along.... eventually, probably after GW4 or Guild Wars Mobile Wars. Just you wait, it is on /#TheTable

Yeah, it is not like thiefs have the most mobility out of all other classes in the game already.Access to the most teleports that ignore LoS . Teleports that ignore verticality and dont even need targets.Access to the most stealth in the game.Access to the most spammable unblockable attack Sw/D #3 which also prioritizes rejuvenation and protection, and ignores any blocks/aegis, and Sw #2 to get close and get out while ignoring LoS to boot.Access to the only ability in the game that prioritizes stability AND steals it, AND is an unblockable teleport that ignores LoS to boot, AND can share it with everyone around.Being meta since Beta and have been an ever present class in nearly all AT and other tournaments and esport teams we have had since day 1.A class able to hit 32k damage with 1 ability https://imgur.com/7XieoAe Totally the worst class by far and the only redeemable thing they have is that they are not eles. Yup.

This is why I never queue in Heart of the Mists. I usually do so sitting down in a relaxing spot in Divinity's Reach. I often do it in a secret spot in The Groove, but sometimes i want to practice my rotation, or tweak my build a bit, or try different variants of the build while I wait for my 5-6 minutes queue to end, there seem to be so few eles playing at my rank that the game seems to have a hard time putting one on the other team, and I dont want to queue on another class so I can get in faster because i would rather be stuck in a 4.5 vs 4.5 than in a 4.5 v 5 (funnily enough, I often see the ele on the enemy team just INSTANTLY switch to another class, I have an SSD so Im usually the first one in the lobby, I can tell when their icon appear and then immediately disappear as quickly, and soon enough, bam, another class). But yeah, I wish I could at the very least change build stuff in PvE, maybe give me some practice bots in the main cities (like in WoW) which I can beat senseless while I wait.

I think the place is really nice with new QoL stuff, however it has the same one issue that made me avoid that place like a plague if I could help it (shame I can only change my build inside there) and it is that it is so darn depressing and eerie and dead and creepy and..... Look, I understand it is the "afterlife", but the whole concept of afterlife is that it is LIFE afterLIFE, not death afterdeath! Bring colors, maybe pieces of the Grove that Ventari "summons" so that dead sylvari can find their place, or something magical like that, not everything have to be 255 shades of grey and blue. (it doesnt help the sour/salty mood many players already have when getting out of their matches)

There will always be a top and a bottom in any spectrum, nobody denies that, however, what matter is how much they deviate from the closest cluster of builds or single build, example, this hypothetical spectrum: (each build/class = |) lowest end: | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | :highest end of the spectrum ^ ^ ^ ^ | | | | X Y Z X= outlier on the lowest end of spectrum, UP, weakest but too many std deviations aways from medianY= Median, where most builds fall, in theory all builds should fall here, there are differences in power, but all are viable and can run together agaisnt each other.Z=Outlier on the other end of the spectrum, these builds are significantly stronger than the median by more than a few std deviations, overshadowing other builds or outright replacing them if the median builds cant compete agaisnt them, creating meta defining checkpoints. Ideally you want none in X or Z, most people disagree on their personal rating, however, when there is large consensus agaisnt a build where mostly people who play said build defend it (there will still be people who dont play it who defend it, but usually it's due to playing unorthodox/non popular builds who either can "manage" or do "fine" agaisnt said builds) then perhaps it is time to look into it. Even if said build is not OP on win rate or other numbers, certain frustrating aspects from poorly designed mechanics can create situations that are not conductive to enjoyment of the mode. A yes, nobody likes dying, nobody likes losing, but sometimes its more about how those happen, than it happening at all, otherwise nobody would ever play a game where you can lose. Competitive nature of people is about winning, no matter what, even if it means playing things they might not enjoy, or hate playing agaisnt, and the recent surge of scrappers is one of those indications, same for soulbeasts, mirages, spellbreakers and holos respectively. Or the lack of elementalist from playing agaisnt them, with them and as them. Hope that helps!

In my language there is a saying that roughly translate: child that doesnt cry doesnt wean. So make waves, uproar, make yourself be heard, play ele even if you know it will lose so that the stats team have some statistics to shown, because Im sure the devs arent sure if there are no eles because they are "unpopular" (because you know, the second most played class after ranger given Anets own statistics would probably not be representative of the very same people playing their PvP when even in WvW you see similar distribution) or other reasons.

Complaining works. There's two overtly nerf scrapper threads. That's hardly "SO MANY". Does that mean that the dozen ele mains left should complain more to see if we can get eles out of the pits of hellnerfs? Because I can do that, i must do that

Do you play holo? Also, what exactly do you think makes them strong? (not that Im contesting what you said, just trying tosee if you came to the same conclusions that I did in those regards)

I'm seeing that in platinum. It's also real cute how you keep saying "yeah, I'm sure you do in bronze." multiple times now. I love how people dismiss many arguments by saying "you must be in bronze/silver" or by saying "good players XYZ....." , yet these people are the first ones to never post their ranks or anything like that. Personally I figured I might as well share my rank to stop this stuff from happening. People dont realize that there is barely any difference between silver/gold/plat in terms of builds, i see all kind of random builds all over the place, heck, I play staff ele and made it to rank 88 last season and have made it legendary twice before, and right now Im in plat 1 playing almost exclusively glass cannon/support staff ele. (last season): https://imgur.com/YMl0cXZ(this season so far after a loooong break): https://imgur.com/fBhyMyb I believe the real difference between different ranks isnt on builds, it is on minimap awareness, map rotations and teamplay . Every season I make it to P1-P2 playing the weirdest of builds, however, when I play meta I can get there in a single day, builds should only make it so that it takes longer in general to reach a rank. However, in my personal opinion, right now we still have some over-performing (key is overtuned, not out-right "OP do-it-all", just exponentially better than others in 1 or more aspects) , classes and classes combo -Soulbeast, scrapper, holo, spellbreaker, staff mirage, sw/d thieves, and FB + scourage combo. These need to be looked at, because they completely change the game beyond just knowing map rotations. Their builds can carry players with low knowledge of map rotations and playing as a team, their builds are inherently strong, allowing players to reach ranks which otherwise they would not reach. I have tested it myself even with barely any knowledge on the builds, and it defeats the purpose of mastering a class and honing your map mov rotations.

P1 is full of scrappers, left and right, enemies and allies, more often than not the team with the fewer of them loses. On the bright side, at least now we have 1-2 supports per team, I have been playing glass-cannon damage staff tempest these past few days and surviving necros/mesmers left and right thanks to scrappers, so I do have to thank them for that: (my ele games) https://imgur.com/mLM9lkI(my rank as of today) https://imgur.com/fBhyMyb On the not so bright side of this, most of my loses were because we had fewer or no scrappers in our team. It feels like my luck depends on how many scrappers matchmaking wants to give me, and I refuse to be the scrapper: https://imgur.com/hVLc2TY I reckon P1-P2 will now be populated by soulbeasts scrappers until we get the next patch 4-5 months from now.

so we're going full on WoW mentality now, great Yup. "I was not meta for X period of time, so now that Im overtuned I deserve being in this state because I wasnt before" If we follow this logic, then eles are due for a 3 years overtuned turn, and thus balance is just flipped around based on time one was underperforming vs overperforming. This is the reason why I still get disappointed at people who dismiss ele's plead for help by saying "WOW WOW dude I cant BELIEVE you said that, do you remember that one time when D/D cele was like meta and all that? WOW!", well, yes I do, so what? Does that mean that they dont get to be brought up to everyone else's level just because they had a build that was over-performing? (and given the powercreep, even the old D/D cele now would still be undertuned). How about we just try to reach a point where ALL classes can be somewhat relevant and not completely overshadow other speccs? Im not asking for perfect balance, but they are quite obvious outliers for extremely overtuned, and undertuned, and you only get to work on that by doing continuous minor patches at weekly to biweekly basis, not 4-5 months dump-n-forget patches. Anyways, it would be nice if tempest was relevant again, or eles in general.

You see, this is what is wrong. If you cant kill it in the node, and say, he is at your home, then naturally you leave home to go mid or far, but nothing stops the scrapper to literally follow you, and if you go back to the point, he goes back too. If 2 people cant kill it, or take WAAAY to long to kill it, then the rest of the map is 3v4 at the enemy advantage, unless you too have someone at the their far doing the same. Now, lets say there are TWO scrappers, one at your home and one at mid. Suddenly our options are even more limited. Anyways, @sephiroth.4217 seems like I too have found my next abuse class, cant wait to see matchmaking at p1-p2 once again become 2 team classes of mostly soulbeasts scrappers, if thats what it takes to get them in line, i too will bite the bullet. Mindless bunkering, here i come.

give me a chance to upload some video with how I use the build before you pass judgement. i'll try & have something for you guys to watch up tonight. i just need to get some spvp footage and a few more wvw fights. Sounds great, but I would wait until ranked starts to do that, also, please post the current rank at the time of the video. It isnt the same to fight bronze people with it, than plat people where the meta/skills are different. I'm actually trying to stay open minded about it, I want to be pleasantly surprised, who knows, maybe it works, but I wanna know if it is relevant to my rating or if it only works up to certain rating.

I have given D/D weaver an honest try before and I don't think it is inherently bad, however, it lacks a flow coming directly from the fact that you are locked from attunement switching for a few seconds after changing element, also, you are heavily locked into arcane for almost anything, more than other D/D builds. It plays differently from previous iterations of D/D so it is unfair to compare the dynamicity between both, it is slower, does hit slightly harder at expense of small hit boxes and long casting times which lock you into animations, also, tend to be low in sustain compared to sword given that water #2 is vastly different in output healing, no dodging and locks you in animation for a long time, which makes you very vulnerable. Perhaps the saving grace of the build is water/earth #3, but like many have said previously in the thread, it is hard to justify its weaknesses when its strengths are barely..... strong enough even with meticulous and near perfect-condition set ups.

At the end of the day it comes down to what you find more comfortable, but personally I find that weaver breaks the flow of D/D too much, we lack inmmediate access to many #3 and #4 which are pivotal for might building, closing gaps or defense. I play D/D tempest cele in PvP and have actually found some success with it (I also play staff tempest mender). There is a way to play D/D weaver, but you will have to build new muscle memory for the keybinds. It is actually not that bad, specially the water/earth combined skill, but the +3 secs between attunements kinda kills it for me, since I like comboing fields quickly.