Sir Vincent III.1286

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP. Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part. Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable. @Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286 You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds. Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds. You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong. Building glass cannon means you take a risk of dying quickly when actually being attacked. It shouldnt mean that you can sometimes die from an enemy you didnt even know was there, without a chance to react. And frankly, permastealth oneshot builds are a thief build that should be "ruined". It adds nothing good to the game, and merely causes frustration. Even snipers in FPS at least have to respect sightlines. lol, snipers in FPS do one shot kill all the time. What games are you playing? You build glass cannon, expect to break. That's all there is to it. There are so many other builds with less risk, yet you choose to be glass, and you want Thief to suffer for it? What?? Yes, they do. But even then, you both have a chance to know where they are (and more importantly, you usually know they are there), and a chance to use sightlines to avoid them. Its borderline, but there is possibility for reactions. The same is not true for perma-stealth oneshot builds. One-shotting a glass cannon is fine. But not when you can do it without even showing your presence. You're either misinformed or just making things up. I've played hundreds of hours of FPS game to know first hand that you're full of IT. There is no "possible for reaction" if I am waiting for your head to pop in a corner, NONE, zero possibility of reaction. And no, you wouldn't know where I'm shooting from. There are danger zones, sure, but you'll have no idea where my perch is. Again. The only people who are complaining about "without a chance to react" are those who are building glass cannon. You're just being stubborn at this point. Well, other than going a different way, sneaking up on you, or using sightlines to make sure you cant hit me. If Snipers could truly kill without reaction, theyd be overpowered. Something they usually arent. Also "FPS game" is rather non-specific. Im talking about both the small-scale stuff like TF2, and large-scale stuff like Planetside 2 here. Snipers are over powered. They can hit you from so far away and one shot you. Sniper rifles has always has that stats of able to one shot kill. DE snipers are no different. Anything less makes it a joke. They arent, though. In pretty much every FPS, snipers, while very popular, range from average to bad. Besides, the problematic build is permastealth backstab, not DJ. DJs damage is at least fine because its so telegraphed, you never get hit by it. You're the one who brought up FPS snipers and now that you're proven wrong, "the problematic build is permastealth backstab, not DJ". Well, have a good day. You're wrong and your responses here are proof of that.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP. Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part. Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable. @Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286 You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds. Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds. You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong. Building glass cannon means you take a risk of dying quickly when actually being attacked. It shouldnt mean that you can sometimes die from an enemy you didnt even know was there, without a chance to react. And frankly, permastealth oneshot builds are a thief build that should be "ruined". It adds nothing good to the game, and merely causes frustration. Even snipers in FPS at least have to respect sightlines. lol, snipers in FPS do one shot kill all the time. What games are you playing? You build glass cannon, expect to break. That's all there is to it. There are so many other builds with less risk, yet you choose to be glass, and you want Thief to suffer for it? What?? Yes, they do. But even then, you both have a chance to know where they are (and more importantly, you usually know they are there), and a chance to use sightlines to avoid them. Its borderline, but there is possibility for reactions. The same is not true for perma-stealth oneshot builds. One-shotting a glass cannon is fine. But not when you can do it without even showing your presence. You're either misinformed or just making things up. I've played hundreds of hours of FPS game to know first hand that you're full of IT. There is no "possible for reaction" if I am waiting for your head to pop in a corner, NONE, zero possibility of reaction. And no, you wouldn't know where I'm shooting from. There are danger zones, sure, but you'll have no idea where my perch is. Again. The only people who are complaining about "without a chance to react" are those who are building glass cannon. You're just being stubborn at this point. Well, other than going a different way, sneaking up on you, or using sightlines to make sure you cant hit me. If Snipers could truly kill without reaction, theyd be overpowered. Something they usually arent. Also "FPS game" is rather non-specific. Im talking about both the small-scale stuff like TF2, and large-scale stuff like Planetside 2 here. Snipers are over powered. They can hit you from so far away and one shot you. Sniper rifles has always has that stats of able to one shot kill. DE snipers are no different. Anything less makes it a joke.

It'd be an interesting build consideration if it did care always care about which skill is on cooldown. Improvisation is still powered by Steal/Swipe/Mark and therefore dependent on cooldown, after all, so it's not unlimited, and in a real PvP situation it's probably not practical to ensure that you always have exactly one utility skill on cooldown every time you Steal. If they're looking to avoid the RNG aspect, it probably should always recharge a skill on cooldown if there is one. They won't do that due to Swindlers, Lead attacks, and Sleight of Hand. Imagine this, I use Assassin's signet, then Steal. Since it is the only skill on CD, it resets. Then I use it again. That's a total of 1080 power boost. Yeah, no.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP. Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part. Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable. @Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286 You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds. Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds. You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong. Building glass cannon means you take a risk of dying quickly when actually being attacked. It shouldnt mean that you can sometimes die from an enemy you didnt even know was there, without a chance to react. And frankly, permastealth oneshot builds are a thief build that should be "ruined". It adds nothing good to the game, and merely causes frustration. Even snipers in FPS at least have to respect sightlines. lol, snipers in FPS do one shot kill all the time. What games are you playing? You build glass cannon, expect to break. That's all there is to it. There are so many other builds with less risk, yet you choose to be glass, and you want Thief to suffer for it? What?? Yes, they do. But even then, you both have a chance to know where they are (and more importantly, you usually know they are there), and a chance to use sightlines to avoid them. Its borderline, but there is possibility for reactions. The same is not true for perma-stealth oneshot builds. One-shotting a glass cannon is fine. But not when you can do it without even showing your presence. You're either misinformed or just making things up. I've played hundreds of hours of FPS game to know first hand that you're full of IT. There is no "possible for reaction" if I am waiting for your head to pop in a corner, NONE, zero possibility of reaction. And no, you wouldn't know where I'm shooting from. There are danger zones, sure, but you'll have no idea where my perch is. Again. The only people who are complaining about "without a chance to react" are those who are building glass cannon. You're just being stubborn at this point.

I see even less reason to pick Even the Odds over Executioner or Potent Poison. Improvisation at least has some utility. Even the Odds is just a worse damage-boosting skill than those 2. Ah, but you're not thinking hybrid build. Since you cannot take both Potent and Exec, Even is the best choice. I slight buff might be needed to justify it being a GM. In contrast, the propose change to Improv makes it a Master trait instead of GM. I cant think of any hybrid thief build thats even possible without just being inferior to a pure one. There is also the issue that Even the Odds requires stealth attacks, which narrows it down even further. I dont think any numbers buff is gonna save the trait. Frankly Id rather have Even the Odds reworked to something else entirely. Something more useful. And Improv in master might be a bit too good still. Well, I'll just have to disagree with that. 8-10 stacks of each might and vul might be enough to justify it to be in GM. Improv is no longer GM worthy after that change. If it's too good, then nerf it even more -- I don't really care. Improv used to grant 10% damage if you have not used the stolen item, that's why it's worthy of being a GM. At its current iteration, it's useless. After the change, it's trash.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP. Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part. Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable. @Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286 You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds. Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds. You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong. Building glass cannon means you take a risk of dying quickly when actually being attacked. It shouldnt mean that you can sometimes die from an enemy you didnt even know was there, without a chance to react. And frankly, permastealth oneshot builds are a thief build that should be "ruined". It adds nothing good to the game, and merely causes frustration. Even snipers in FPS at least have to respect sightlines.lol, snipers in FPS do one shot kill all the time. What games are you playing? You build glass cannon, expect to break. That's all there is to it. There are so many other builds with less risk, yet you choose to be glass, and you want Thief to suffer for it? What??

I see even less reason to pick Even the Odds over Executioner or Potent Poison. Improvisation at least has some utility. Even the Odds is just a worse damage-boosting skill than those 2. Ah, but you're not thinking hybrid build. Since you cannot take both Potent and Exec, Even is the best choice. I slight buff might be needed to justify it being a GM. In contrast, the propose change to Improv makes it a Master trait instead of GM.

There is ZERO reason to take Improvisation. If you're building condition, take Potent. If you're building power, take Exec. Why in the world would I take Improv?What would be the reason to take it after this change? Theses are the questions that the Devs needs to ask themselves. In my opinion, Even the Odds and Improvisation should swap ability effects.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP. Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part. Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable. @Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286 You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds. Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds. You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

Not entirely accurate. It depends which perspective you're looking from.

Question: I don't like the wording on this. "Utility Skills" only means one of the 3 utility skills equipped not including healing and elite skills. If it includes healing and elite, it might not be too bad. But if "utility skills" only...aaahh...no thank you. Resetting an Elite skill is the only reason I would take this. I can't believe I didn't notice that. Shooot... this concerns me. Are they quietly getting rid of dagger storm improv COMBO!? Yeah, it's very carefully worded and quite sneaky. @"Robert Gee.9246" said:Just wanted to jump in to address a few questions and comments I've seen popping up frequently in relation to these update notes:Can Improvisation recharge my Heal or Elite?Improvisation recharges one of your utility skills. It does not recharge the Heal or the Elite. Boom... It should still be really good if you get a guaranteed utility proc (thief has a lot of good utilities like shadowstep). But if its like, RNG and the steal can pick a utility that's not on CD over one that is then it seems like a straight nerf.From Buff perspective: 33% chance to reset Assassin's signet on steal. "OP one-shot damage" river cry ensues. How about Binding Shadow reset for condi build 25 stacks of Vuln on one go? From Nerf perspective: No Elite reset. Booo!!

Any map is not big enough to actually tell the difference in mobility.

CiS is still a gigantic downgrade from the previous versions. It does siphon from every single blinded foe, but you have to get a total of 15 blinds just to gain as much healing as stopping the crit from 1 autoattack wouldve done. So even in the least useful scenario for the old CiS, it still massively outperforms the current one (Among other things because you dont get 15 blinds ever. Even Black Powder into Heartseeker, with both hitting 5 players is only 10 players. ). The current version is so insanely undertuned, that a 1000% buff would not even make it good. That makes zero sense. Blinded foes deals zero damage. So while you're healing from siphon health, your target does no damage due to blind. If blind prevented a 2k damage, you practically extended your effective health by 2k, then add the siphon healing to that. CIS works in conjunction with Shadow Siphoning; siphon health when you go in stealth, then siphon again when you sneak attack. If you take Leeching, you get to siphon 3 times (CiS, Shadow, Leeching). So in the same trait line, all the siphoning adds up that's why they are very careful not to give too much to CiS. EDIT:In my S/D build, I siphon with CnD, then siphon twice using tactical strike front stab (CiS + Shadow), then siphon again from leeching. At the current iteration, it's not that great, but this change might improve things.

Is that true? I don't see anything in the wiki about the duration being shortened. Right after the Action Camera was implemented, I asked the dev in charge of it if he could add a way for us to shorten Heartseeker with it like we could do with the normal camera. He said that he wasn't aware of that ability, and that it must be a bug... So they eventually "fixed" the bug. Though I figured it was just to make the skill function consistently, not to limit the number of leaps possible through Black Powder. My memory got it mixed up. They shorten the blind duration, not the smoke duration. And yeah, you're right, it was the camera update that limited the number of leaps.

You never know when it comes to ArenaNet. Assuming what they mean almost always turn out not what they actually mean. Unless they said it themselves, I believe they will only allow utility skills to reset. Resetting one out of three skills is definitely a buff compare to the current iteration of Improv, but it's not something we all want. EDIT: typos

But does it deserve enough damage to one shot professions from stealth? Im not convinced. Although I do agree that this is probably a problem with all classes in general. In WvW, yes. The only professions that gets one shotted deserve it for building glass cannon. Many players in WvW are smart enough to put on some toughness and vitality to prevent getting one shotted. Those players took that risk, they have to live with it. True, but I'm not talking about nerfing thieves utilities to grant less stealth. I am soley focusing on combo fields stacking stealth. Shadow arts stealth duration trait actually has no effect on combo finishers. Shadow arts or not, leaping through a blind field grants 3 seconds of stealth. At the cost of full bar of initiatives. Without SA, you cannot replenish your initiatives fast enough. So even if they can stack stealth using leap, they cannot do anything else since they have no initiatives. Plus, without Meld with Shadows' movement speed boost, you cannot get into tactical position without shadowtep on Steal. There are so many hoops to jump through to get that perfect MBS. Without SA, a DE backstabber has a higher chance of failing a backstab. Again you're right which is why I don't want to nerf skills and traits. However there is no counter to a thief perma-stealthing out of sight and approaching undetected. My problems is one shot builds that don't actually fight, they just pop up back stab and reset. As I've said. One shot only happens against glass cannon. If you don't want to get one shotted, get some buffer. There is a standard 2600 armor and 15k health to prevent getting one shotted. If your stats are below this standard, you deserve to get one shotted since you took that risk. I think thieves are pretty good 1v1 at the moment, I certainly don't think they need buffs. It makes more sense to bring over performing classes down to thieves level. Although I would add that marked in WvW really really really neeeds a rework. I don't like perma stealth back stab builds at all really. But 2 seconds followed by a 5 second reveal is way too much. But other than that I think thief is in a good place even for 1v1's. Thief cannot do 1v1 that's why it is resorting to sneak attacks. It is by design. Thief needs to have more access to tricks like interrupts/daze. For instance, Burst of Agility (Trickery) should cause all the Thief's attacks to apply a 1s daze with 1s CD per ammo, 6 ammos, 60s CD, when you attack from flank or behind and will not activate from stealth. The ICD is to prevent the daze from stacking when Quickness is active. This will make Thief deadly in one-on-one combat without resorting to sneak attacks. The current iteration of Burst of Agility is lame.

"Death's Carapace stacks are applied for 10 seconds..." lolz. What the heck is that? This is already not going to work. Reiterate please.

Except it will only reset utility skills and not healing and elite. :/

Question: I don't like the wording on this. "Utility Skills" only means one of the 3 utility skills equipped not including healing and elite skills. If it includes healing and elite, it might not be too bad. But if "utility skills" only...aaahh...no thank you. Resetting an Elite skill is the only reason I would take this. I can't believe I didn't notice that. Shooot... this concerns me. Are they quietly getting rid of dagger storm improv COMBO!?Yeah, it's very carefully worded and quite sneaky.

They won't do that. It was shorten for the very reason of limiting the number of leaps. Though the 2s ticks was unwarranted.

That's some build. 1k healing power, 3k armor, 16k health, plus barriers...looks fun. :)

Malicious Backstab deal that much damage because DE doesn't have a shadowstep when using DE Marks. Compare to Core, DE has to walk up to the target before they can backstab. Steal gives Core a tactical advantage due to shadowstep. IMO, DE deserve the ridiculous damage from MBS since losing the shadowstep on Steal is the tradeoff. Now extended stealth is not that great if you don't take Shadow Arts. Extending stealth is necessary for DE in order to get in position due to the loss of shadowstep on Steal. Extending stealth is what Shadow Arts suppose to do so I don't agree on changing this. So now it comes down to counterplay. There are many counters to stealth and they simply do not want to take it for whatever reason. Spellbreaker has the most OP anti-stealth kit (ugh, how I hate Magebane Tether). As for other professions without counterplay, well, then the changes has to happen to those professions instead of trying to change the Thief. The recent changes to Shadow Arts puts the Thief where it's suppose to be -- an expert at stealth. Now if ArenaNet can improve our 1v1 capability so that we can actually be "deadly in one-on-one combat" as our job description says, then we're good.

This is big. This put it inline with Deadeye Mark which is also 25s CD. It still not good enough to compete against Flickering Shadows. Here's the problem. Typically, in order to prevent telegraphing when activating a Venom, I would go in stealth. Now there is a conflict since Leeching will now override my utility venom (i.e. Devourer Venom). This becomes a problem when I don't want my Skelk Venom interrupted and use it in stealth. The current iteration of Leeching is in conflict with other Venoms preventing me from using them in stealth. I lose tactical advantage if I take Leeching and other Venoms. Now if the Venom application while in stealth only triggers if I currently have no other Venom active would be a better iteration of this trait. At its current state, it's unusable. Question: I don't like the wording on this. "Utility Skills" only means one of the 3 utility skills equipped not including healing and elite skills. If it includes healing and elite, it might not be too bad. But if "utility skills" only...aaahh...no thank you. Resetting an Elite skill is the only reason I would take this. I've been trying to make the life siphoning to work with my S/D (front stab tactical strike siphon) but it's not showing good numbers. It seems that this change looks good but not sure if it will be enough. My DA/SA/DD S/D is loving these upcoming changes, except for Leeching and Improv.

Too short. Things are just getting started then, BRAHAM! to be continued... :/

No, no, no, no, I totally disagree. Main hand pistol is Condition damage and Off-hand pistol is Power. This supports the P/D and D/P builds very well. As for P/P, this build should have its own 5-skill bar utilizing both pistol in all of its attacks and it should be full on Power based with high agility (rolling, sliding, evading, etc). By extension, D/D will be a Condition based 5-skill bar utilizing both daggers in all of its attacks that is also high agility. The way this will work is that, instead of flipping skill#3 when dual wielding, if the same weapon is equipped in both hands, all 5 skills flips. This will ensure that changes to single-hand pistol will never affect P/P and changes to single-hand dagger will never affect D/D. P/P and D/D will basically be treated as a 2-H weapon. EDIT: typo