Optimizing hammer Rev for roaming?

[Buran.3796]

  Hi, lately I've been using four different Revenant builds (which I like and enjoy) in PvP, and three of them seems to have a good transfer when used at OW PvE and WvW roaming, but I would want advice about how to polish and refine the 4th for roaming and small scale skirmishes in WvW. That one moves around the concept of using the hammer. I will put a bit of context:

 

* The main build I use at PvP/WvW roaming is the classical power Herald, with dual swords + staff and Glint + Shiro, usually running a cautious Dev 333, In 111, Herald 322 (a more agressive 123, 121, 212 is used sometimes). I think that this is still the strongest 1 v 1 build a Rev can use, but you have no ranged pressure, is a bit slower taking camps and every time you face 1 v n (specially if at least one of the foes is ranged) the chances of surviving are low. Otherwise, phenomenal mobility and damage burst.

*Another solid one is the condi Herald, with Glint + Mallyx, mace and axe (sword & shield oftenly in the swap) with Corr 113, Ret 112 and Herald 131. This works better in 1 v n when the space is constrained or small groups merge (so does fairly well in PvP 2 v2 and 3 v 3) and is carried in small WvW skirmishes by the tormenting runes absent in PvP. It melts camps and mele skirmishes but mobility is an issue, specially in 1 v 1 against any build which can disengage and reset a figh (which are common in WvW roaming).

*The third one (and lately my most played) is the short bow Renegade, with Jalist & Shiro, sb + staff and Ret 133, Inv 121 and Ren 122. In PvP I play it with demolisher amulet, whereas in PvE I can go either power (commander + zerk) or more oftenly full viper changing to Corr 131, Dev 333 and Ren 222. For WvW I usually mix trailblazer + viper but maintaining the PvP traits of the power builds. It has high mobility/evasion with plenty of cc, melts camps and guards in a blink and puts tons of ranged pressure in any WvW encounter. Lately I've found myself using it more than power Herald in WvW due how well goes in n vs n and small fights pushing damage and cc while keeping the ability to disengage. Jalis is also amazing for team support in those fights, way above Herald in that regard.

*The fourth one started with a PvP build to tank in the middle node: Glint + Jalis with hammer and sword + shield, Ret 133, Inv 111, Herald 232, demolisher stats which moved to commander + zerk in WvW. This has strong sustain and plenty of cleanses, with very strong defense against ranged attacks, but you lack disengage capabilities and the damage is fairly weak (your really feel it taking camps).

   The thing is after seeing some vids from Shao in PvP (with  hammer + staff, zerk stats and core Rev with Shiro & Jalis) I was wondering if there's a chance of getting from hammer Rev in WvW similar performance as currently the Renegade gives: a very mobile build that can put hard pressure at range, endure close range fights for a while and disengage or gain time with mobility if needed. The main obstacle I find is the way in which the current hammer works: the short bow attacks are easier to land and specced to condi they keep dealing damage after you hit, whereas the hammer needs to land most of the attacks to sustain the same damage. And talking about damage is the handicap of the stats: with condi half of the gear can be trailbalzer for extra tankiness, whereas with power hammers seems that at roaming everything below full zerk diminishes the cances of winning a fight.

   So: do you think that is possible? Can a hammer build be built to have similar success to the Shiro Renebow in WvW? Should a core Rev with the F2 unblockables in Shiro and Devastation replacing Herald help in the transition? Should I run Brutality to maximice the chances of landing the hammer slower attacks, or maximizing crit chances and damage instead? Is a lost cause in the current hammer state? 

[Telgum.6071]

You can have sucess with anything thanks to how rewarding the GW2 combat system is.

Yeah, why wouldn't it be possible. But is like Ventari, a meme build that gives you AoE knockback and a mobile bubble, and for that you have to skip the enormous power of either Glint, Shiro or Jalis. Will work, and on very certain situations it will be very good, you'll have a decent burst damage from afar, but hammer will never put the same pressure and utility than shortbow, in fact I'm sure shortbow puts more damage on the long run.

[Buran.3796]

   I'm not sure. This afternoon did a bit of roaming in the Alpine Borderlands with this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAIZlxQHsOqhxROMP6hRSfMCKgl+U26H-zRIYRU9XKNWAZGC1mA9GBeNLC/aB-e

  ...Lost to a Necro amongst the trees of Orchard Overlook, won against a Thief near the Temple of the Lost Prayers (which I did chase from Craver's Ascent), lost after a long fight near Greenlake against a Renebow + a Weaver, won against a Soulbeast + Mirage in Stargrove (the Soulbeast was a Mithril Legend, albeit ranks in WvW =/= quality as a roamer), had some larger n vs n skirmishes in which performed well, avoided some zergs but was stomped by others...

   I would say that works fine but I'm unsure about the sigils and some Devastation and Invocation trait choices. Seems to preform great vs other bow lovers and ranged fighters (Renebows, all kind of Rangers,  DH trappers, Mirages... ) but as I said still feels unpolished and I didn't have time enough vs pure mele builds to have a whole picture. But this is despite how overwhelming were the damage and mechanics nerfs to the hammer, so feels amazing to able to counter some meta builds with an entire outsider.

[Impling.4170]

I have tried hammer Rev on occasion while roaming and while it never feels great, I feel like quickness makes a massive difference for actually landing damage. I am a big fan of celerity sigil on hammer if running Jalis because you can line it up with your taunt and get a nice CoR or few autos in for some nice chunking. I also don't think the battle scar traits would really be worth it without swords as there is very little synergy with hammer and you are missing out on a lot of potential damage.

[Shao.7236]

Renegade on Diviner and Core on Berserker works well.

 

Both being on Shiro/Jalis depending on what you favor the most, be boons over damage. Renegade does have the benefit of Brutal Momentum though however normally to make the best out of hammer is to always use an utility with the weapon skills, never was able to accomplish anything otherwise myself since Hammer is really the slow heavy hitter and it ain't working trying to do things without some form of combination.

[hainese.9216]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmiAIZldQMMHyj1QdsHij9RksAigl+U3SD-zRRYBRFTM4TJThQpKgalA9KCU80QhzIA-e

 

With hammer, you might want to capitalize on the fact that it can spike hard with a lot of might generation, having the fury/might synergy through invocation along with fireworks runes and a quickness source can help patch up hammers shortcomings...

 

Not having sword/sword will mean you don't have a lot of sustained damage.. but legend swapping with sigil of battle will help with that might upkeep and as shao pointed out you can spend more energy on utility skills when hammer spike is on CD

 

 

 

 

[Shao.7236]

@Buran.3796 It may sound dumb but with Hammer since you get a lot of energy, Jade Wind is without a doubt one of the best skills to use with it, it adds on damage as well as baiting dodges because whether you get CC or don't land it, you can use Riposting Shadows for recovery and in either situations into Jalis to Taunt and add damage with the Inspiring Reinforcement.

 

Revenant Hammer has funnily enough lot of pressure that leaves opponent with no choice but to react with something or they take a lot of damage.

 

 

 

[Buran.3796]

   Thanx for the answers. Yesterday I (temporaly) ended swapping Song of the Mist and Dance of the Deaad for  Roiling Mist and Swift Termination respectively; as Hainese pointed out the hammer is slow so Dance of the Dead  doesn't gives us as much as paired with dual swords, so extra crit (almost 100% when in fury) makes the damage more consistent. On maths Swift Termination is "only" a 10% increase (20% half of the time) but man those extra hit points on weared down foes are tasty. Still testing other traits and sigils, but so far great results in 1 vs 1.  Not so great being attacked while taking a camp because cleans those veterans slower than Renegade's  shortbow and when you face ranged foes (most of necros, rangers and mesmers... ) you absolutely need to put all your tools in properly spacing vs the players, and you lack Spirit Crush/ Scorchrazor to roast A.I. mobs while fighting humans.

 

    The importance of quickness is clear, but availbility relies on Brutality and the boon duration to get out the most of that combo requires to lower the damage output, so in theory you hit more oftenly but dealing less damage, which not always it the best choice. Well, for sure is a interesting design; I'm still not sure of which woul work the best... I'll keep trying.

[Shao.7236]

23 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Thanx for the answers. Yesterday I (temporaly) ended swapping Song of the Mist and Dance of the Deaad for  Roiling Mist and Swift Termination respectively; as Hainese pointed out the hammer is slow so Dance of the Dead  doesn't gives us as much as paired with dual swords, so extra crit (almost 100% when in fury) makes the damage more consistent. On maths Swift Termination is "only" a 10% increase (20% half of the time) but man those extra hit points on weared down foes are tasty. Still testing other traits and sigils, but so far great results in 1 vs 1.  Not so great being attacked while taking a camp because cleans those veterans slower than Renegade's  shortbow and when you face ranged foes (most of necros, rangers and mesmers... ) you absolutely need to put all your tools in properly spacing vs the players, and you lack Spirit Crush/ Scorchrazor to roast A.I. mobs while fighting humans.

 

    The importance of quickness is clear, but availbility relies on Brutality and the boon duration to get out the most of that combo requires to lower the damage output, so in theory you hit more oftenly but dealing less damage, which not always it the best choice. Well, for sure is a interesting design; I'm still not sure of which woul work the best... I'll keep trying.

Anytime I look back at my performance, even not as hammer most of my biggest performances come from in between legend swaps, it's not unreasonable to assume that Hammer does work best like so. I do not use brutality as a notice but in WvW I'm sure more options are available.

[Jaykay.9641]

Sorry I'm late to this thread. Haven't been keeping up. I've been waiting for new Rev info to look at forums and that came today. So this thread may get buried amid the flurry of attention the new Vindicator teaser trailer, but just wanted to give some attention to this thread as it is important.

I've been trying myself to make a Hammer rev roaming build work, but it's challenging. I feel like Shiro/Jalis is almost necessary bc of mobility of Shiro and the CC from Jalis to set up your bombs. I'm trying to get away from Staff as it's almost necessary in roaming builds, but you need a defensive weapon somewhere so I've been experimenting with Herald with Hammer/Sword/Shield but not using Glint.

So I've been trying Shiro/Jalis with Berserker gear and a couple pieces of Knight for toughness on Back piece and Amulet. With Speed Runes, HP hits 20k because of Herald 10% hp and your at around 2500 armor and I can still hit the 2400 power, 50% crit w/o fury and 200% ferocity. With speed runes, I've found it easier to kite unless you run into Speed Reaper or Superspeed Scrapper.

I'm still debating on traits. Invocation is the usual (like most Rev builds) but I like Retribution in other slot bc I can flex into Weakness synergy or Resolution might building. The issue with Resolution is that Shiro/Jalis have high Elite energy costs. But as Shao said, Your not spamming Weapon abilities on Hammer so you sometimes have an abundance of energy. Devastation would be the other option for Damage because you can get might and quickness, but I've been using the Strength Runes for might generation and missing out on the quickness.

Simple version of build I've been running is here

I can go on and on about this topic, but I'll end with these thoughts: I think I'm going to revive an old Hammer redesign thread that someone posted months ago about turning Hammer into a duelist weapon while still retaining the WvW zerg abilities. I'd like to hear more thoughts in that. I'll wait till after the beta. Finally, the new Vindicator trailer may open up some options for Roaming Hammer Rev as it looks likes a Greatsword/utilities will give mobility and defense which will help Roaming hammer Rev as you won't have to slot Staff in 2nd weapon for defense. Can't wait for the beta. We'll have more answers soon.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Jaykay.9641