Thief vs Guardian/Necromancer

[Padra.1678]

As D/P (bezerker marauders) Both of these matchups are really rough, like I am not sure if I am even suppose to be able to win. Guards have so much blind and shield I find it extremely difficult to land any attacks and then add that to long duration reveals and its just bad. Necromancer spams out enough aoe condi to kill in seconds through stealth and the instant they put on shroud my damage just plummets to nothing. I am honestly unsure what I am suppose to be doing with either of these fights?

 

 

I am comeing back to the game for EOD after a long break. I am useing D/P as I always have and I am starting back into pvp and wvw trying to get a feel for things. I am definitely feeling like my damage took a HUGE hit as compared to where is was a year ago. Whats going on with thief guys? is it just me?

 

[ASP.8093]

Necro meta is really heavy on stacking damage mitigation effects right now, after a few days where they could get down to near-100% damage immunity due to a stacking bug introduced around the same time as one of the beta patches (that's been fixed, i think, but you're still seeing heavily tanky builds trying to replicate that high). So, it's a slog. Don't burn all your Initiative trying to force them out of Shroud because then they're likely going to be able to get back into Shroud before you can finish them.

For Guardians, a lot of it is timing your Swipe (it's Unblockable! and likely traited for boon rips) to mess up their sustain rotation. If you're playing Core Thief Power D/P I will gently recommend you try Daredevil, it's very strong while being kind of the same build still.

In WvW roaming, the easiest counter to Necro and most Guard builds is M7 Deadeye. Because you can poke at range, you can reposition around them, and you have the sustained dps and initiative management to force your way through their sustain. Dragonhunters can still get you if you don't dodge their F1, but besides that you have a pretty decent leg up on them. In SPvP I think you mostly just need to play off your team. Maybe consider switching from Trickery/Shadow Arts/DD to Trickery/Deadly Arts/DD (with Improvisation) if you're finding you just can't pressure enemies hard enough.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Thief used to be able to pimp on necromancers, particularly reapers. That was pre-Feb 2020.

Now you can't kill them 1v1 even on your best day unless they're incompetent. And before someone says "DEADEYE", I'd like to remind you that both necromancer and guardian have an on-demand reflect to guard against your initial burst, and LoS to skip the follow-up. And even deadeye's damage is so neutered against necro's damage mitigation and guard's blocks, that they can actually just sit on node and let you waste your time.

At that point you're better off on daredevil anyways. If you want to play deadeye, use dragonhunter instead. Superior damage with much less windup time, and isn't as hard-countered by some other meta builds (herald, etc). Also, Head Crack (stolen skill) is particularly efficient at locking down a guard you're +1'ing, so DD's got that going for it as well.

TL;DR: thief is strictly roamer, do not try to 1v1 anyone or fight over a node vs guards and necroes. 

 

[AikijinX.6258]

34 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Thief used to be able to pimp on necromancers, particularly reapers. That was pre-Feb 2020.

Now you can't kill them 1v1 even on your best day unless they're incompetent. And before someone says "DEADEYE", I'd like to remind you that both necromancer and guardian have an on-demand reflect to guard against your initial burst, and LoS to skip the follow-up. And even deadeye's damage is so neutered against necro's damage mitigation and guard's blocks, that they can actually just sit on node and let you waste your time.

At that point you're better off on daredevil anyways. If you want to play deadeye, use dragonhunter instead. Superior damage with much less windup time, and isn't as hard-countered by some other meta builds (herald, etc). Also, Head Crack (stolen skill) is particularly efficient at locking down a guard you're +1'ing, so DD's got that going for it as well.

TL;DR: thief is strictly roamer, do not try to 1v1 anyone or fight over a node vs guards and necroes. 

 

You can still kill with deadeye. Rifle / SD is a thing. As well as Rifle/ DP

but I guess what you’re talking about is pertaining to PvP.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

28 minutes ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

You can still kill with deadeye. Rifle / SD is a thing. As well as Rifle/ DP

but I guess what you’re talking about is pertaining to PvP.

OP had a PvP-vibe about his post. But, true, deadeye is good in WvW. 

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

 Guardians and necros are good counters too melee oriented thieves. Any ranged thief will be a good counter to them though.  However ranged thieves have issues vs other builds where melee focused is a bit better. 

[Salvatore.3749]

21 hours ago, Padra.1678 said:

As D/P (bezerker marauders) Both of these matchups are really rough, like I am not sure if I am even suppose to be able to win. Guards have so much blind and shield I find it extremely difficult to land any attacks and then add that to long duration reveals and its just bad. Necromancer spams out enough aoe condi to kill in seconds through stealth and the instant they put on shroud my damage just plummets to nothing. I am honestly unsure what I am suppose to be doing with either of these fights?

 

 

I am comeing back to the game for EOD after a long break. I am useing D/P as I always have and I am starting back into pvp and wvw trying to get a feel for things. I am definitely feeling like my damage took a HUGE hit as compared to where is was a year ago. Whats going on with thief guys? is it just me?

 

Welcome back! Yeah, it was a learning curve for me too! I came back after a long hiatus and saw some nerfs. I primarily focus on pvp and wvw these days.  This is a long strategy post.

Someone already mentioned to use Daredevil for dodges and I second that. I would also recommend for WvW, full marauders armor with berserker trinkets for more damage. D/P is great, but Sw/P is even better as daredevil in WvW roaming for more damage output.

As for PvP, if you are going to use Core Power Thief, you must use sleight of hand. Essentially steal becomes an interrupt, steal recharge is reduced, and when paired with boon rip, guardians lose their sustain and you gain sustain. Sleight of hand will make your steal mechanic far more powerful so long as you remain technical. I also recommend the traits in shadow arts where stealthing removes conditions and stealth applies venoms, plus regenerate health and initiative while in stealth.  Those three traits rapidly increase your sustain. Then use invigorating precision (my personal favorite) in critical strikes traitline. Focus on landing that backstab and use headshot and heartseeker. The key with necros and guardians is remaining so technical throughout the fight, that every attack lands and they use up their burst. Wait for their bursts, interrupt the start of their burst or middle of their burst, stealth, backstab, heartseeker or headshot then heartseeker, etc. 

With thief, backstab was nerfed in 2020 for a slight damage reduction, now you need to remain technical for most damage output. Stay to the behind or side of your target for maximum damage output. In core pvp, I also suggest runes of divinity for all around state boost. Have a little more healing power and condi damage raises your sustainability. I also suggest D/P and SB to keep yourself at range with Guardians so you can use choking gas to interrupt and cause poision, and combo fields. The best part of SB is the combo fields so you don't need to hit the guardian or necro directly, poison reduces healing so use it to your advantage, steal boons, interrupt often, and using the combo field will cause weakness with blasts. So blinding powder is nice to stealth, build more venoms, backstab, and steal health, and give yourself fury for the heartseeker combo. 

Necros take forever sometimes, so autoattack with shortbow and cause bleed and interrupt to weaken them and take down the shroud. STEALTH often and attack from the back. BS does a lot of damage and it's fun to watch the shroud go down. Time your steal on their heal, cause 1st interrupt, cause second interrupt with headshot, heartseeker, or stealth for backstab. 

With shroud, it normal runs out, but you can whittle it down with shortbow autoattacks. More often than not, you can focus on other targets with SB which will reduce the shroud. If you think you are in position where the necro is super tanky, more often than not, their goal is outlive you and not actually kill you. So stealth and head to a different node if you are lacking points in a match. Imo, there is nothing wrong with winning a match if you can't kill a player 1v1. 

I know it sounds counterintuitive to go to a different node, but sometimes you're just wasting time in a long 1-v1 fight mid match. You may as well take a different node for the sake of winning the match.   


 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Salvatore.3749

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's a battle of cooldowns. 

Your ability to reset and control spacing is better than their resources to kill you.  Good necros and reapers especially will try and punish your mistakes.  It's like 55/45 favor thief.  It's just most thieves are worse than they think and are arrogant to try and engage a shrouded reaper. 

Just keep resetting against necro until it's basically out of LF for the execute.   Once shrouds up they're basically a free bag. 

Guard you have to bait RI and its defensive virtues. 

If you're trying to stay engaged, you're gonna just lose.  They balance thief solely around weaving in and out of combat now.  The burst builds are all nerfed harshly.  If the old SA playstyle doesn't suit you, just reroll like I did.  Otherwise the class is fine/DrD is a bit OP. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by DeceiverX.8361

[Onlyflameone.2136]

Listen. I've fought many of them even really skilled ones. And I've won almost every time. Take my tips.

1. Focus on power build, because they can clean tons of conditions, and even can transfer them back to you.

2. Make sure you can clean at least 3 conditions from yourself every 10 sec., because if not you will die of conditions mostly.

3. Always choose talents that increase your strike dmg and avoid having boons, like might at all, because of reapers/necros boon convert. 

4. Make sure you can apply at least 2 blinds every 10 sec., If you are lucky you can escape some big hits on you and you need more resilience VS them as well.

5. Have at least one stun break, a must to survive.

6. Try to dodge only their burst attacks, sometimes is game changer.

7. Use only well planed strike moves, so practice more for better experience.

8. Have big crit chance for your power build, the fastest way to deal dps and to keep pressure.

9. Go in stealth at least 1 time every 10 sec., this may stop their usual rotation and you get advantage for stealth move and upper hand.

10. Make sure you can have at least one ability that blocks projectile attacks and use it at right moment, they do lots of them, so it may be game changer.

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Onlyflameone.2136

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Suppose you can go for Smoke Screen to cheese the necro. The key really is blinding out and/or dodging the most crucial CC and burst. Either way, it's an uphill struggle since thief can't burst reaper or core necro out of shroud anymore, and disengaging multiple times will most likely lose your team the game.

[Sifu.9745]

Just go D/D condition (Carrion, Rabid or Wizard Amulet) Daredevil and you will have no issue vs Necros and Guardians at all. It's the best 1 vs 1 and 1 vs 2 Thief's build. Spam Dodge and Death Blossom (Dagger #3), that way you will do dmg and avoid their attacks, than go stealth to prevent them from condi transfer to you. Of course it's not that simple but you get the point. Be sure to dodge/stealth their condi transfer and you will be just fine. Don't hesitate to use you SB when needed. Guardians and Reapers will have zero chance vs you, while base condi Necro and Scourge might give you a little challenge, if players are really skilled.

The only downside is that people would call you a cheater if you play as condi D/D Daredevil ... But who cares after all. It's just a game.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Sifu.9745

[vardeleanu.8972]

play deadeye against necro

against guardian* wait until they attack someone and burst them then (if they're dps) or just kill everyone around them (if support)

Edited September 28, 2021 by vardeleanu.8972