The new elite specs are extremely underwhelming and uninspired

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/6/2021 at 3:02 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, I'm not arguing what is 'function' or not because it's not really my point. My point is that there is a finite functional space that exists and it's determined by the game content, not how classes are conceived. Finer distinctions don't change that. If anything, the finer distinctions in function become much less meaningful as primary characteristics for especs to be built around. If we want to talk about underwhelming espec design ... then focusing on 'finer' distinctions would certainly be the way for Anet to do that. 

I mean, Catalyst does suffer from exactly that ... somehow Anet thinks that getting an Aura from finishing a Jade Sphere ... is different than simply using a skill that gives you an Aura. Same function, just a different way to do it. Function vs. gameplay. There is nothing Anet can do with Catalyst that will convince any player that they got a whole pile of new functionality by finishing on a Jade Sphere to get an Aura ... because function doesn't derive from the spec design, it's a result of content.  

The total functional space might be finite, but it's still a lot bigger than you've been arguing it is, and does any one profession span the entirety of the functional space? Not even close. So there's space for elite specialisations to add functionality that the profession did not have access to before. Catalyst does not do this, apart from the very specific case of being potentially able to become a quickness applyer if people can make that work. Otherwise, it's squeezing into a narrow space between what weavers and tempests already do.

 

Willbender, virtuoso, and harbinger at least make credible efforts to offer new functionalities.

[Urphen.2857]

On 10/2/2021 at 3:57 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

There are problems with virtuoso, to be sure, but I think a lot of the backlash is that people who have been near-exclusively playing mesmer can't see themselves playing without clones, have spent years compensating for the very real issues clones have, and see problems as gamebreaking that other professions see as normal gameplay considerations.

 

 

That’s not true, many Mesmer mains wanted a Cloneles spec since in WvW big scale they are useless, the backlash is there because they changed a useless resource for another useless resource thanks to all projectile hate in this game mode.

 

next thing is that we wanted something new or something that can fill the missing roles that the other specs can’t fill and the only thing anet has done is taking away clones for blades, F skills are the same beside of F4 there is nothing new nothing refreshing we have only a flashy class now with the same or even more problems like before.

 

non mesmer mains like it because it is a core light version where they don’t need to bother with clones and fighting against is now easier thanks to not searching the real mesmer now, for me Virtuoso is a rushed spec based on Forum topics that anet has read but not what was described in these posts, it’s a mix of the Bard topics and cloneles topics.

 

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

That’s not true, many Mesmer mains wanted a Cloneles spec since in WvW big scale they are useless, the backlash is there because they changed a useless resource for another useless resource thanks to all projectile hate in this game mode.

 

next thing is that we wanted something new or something that can fill the missing roles that the other specs can’t fill and the only thing anet has done is taking away clones for blades, F skills are the same beside of F4 there is nothing new nothing refreshing we have only a flashy class now with the same or even more problems like before.

 

non mesmer mains like it because it is a core light version where they don’t need to bother with clones and fighting against is now easier thanks to not searching the real mesmer now, for me Virtuoso is a rushed spec based on Forum topics that anet has read but not what was described in these posts, it’s a mix of the Bard topics and cloneles topics.

 

 

 

I see this no true Scotsmen argument a lot, but there are mesmer players that like Virtuoso as well. Having been on both sides of the equation, competent players generally aren't fooled by clones for more than a second or two at most - if they're destroying clones, they're usually doing it knowingly to deny a resource (guides for fighting mesmers often advise bouncing attacks or AoE to clear out clones, for instance). Mesmer survivability is usually based more on stealth and evade/block/invulnerability frames rather than the handful of moments that a clone might buy you over the course of a game. If the enemy wants to train you, clones won't stop them.

 

Being projectiles are a bit of a "can't get something for nothing" - most ranged attacks in the game are projectiles, after all. Maybe there needs to be a trait that makes the bladesongs immune to projectile hate if within a certain range of the target (could possibly be rolled into Mental Focus), but this is a specific piece of actionable feedback rather than a "the whole thing sucks". 

[Urphen.2857]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I see this no true Scotsmen argument a lot, but there are mesmer players that like Virtuoso as well. Having been on both sides of the equation, competent players generally aren't fooled by clones for more than a second or two at most - if they're destroying clones, they're usually doing it knowingly to deny a resource (guides for fighting mesmers often advise bouncing attacks or AoE to clear out clones, for instance). Mesmer survivability is usually based more on stealth and evade/block/invulnerability frames rather than the handful of moments that a clone might buy you over the course of a game. If the enemy wants to train you, clones won't stop them.

 

Being projectiles are a bit of a "can't get something for nothing" - most ranged attacks in the game are projectiles, after all. Maybe there needs to be a trait that makes the bladesongs immune to projectile hate if within a certain range of the target (could possibly be rolled into Mental Focus), but this is a specific piece of actionable feedback rather than a "the whole thing sucks". 

so what's the point? There are even rev player that like Vindicator.

Cherry picking a few things I said to make sounds you argument better doesn't change the problems we other mesmer mains have with this spec even if you claim its mostly because we have no clones.

 

Never said the whole thing sucks, it can make fun but doesn't change the fact that we got the same again only with other animations and more problems.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

so what's the point? There are even rev player that like Vindicator.

Cherry picking a few things I said to make sounds you argument better doesn't change the problems we other mesmer mains have with this spec even if you claim its mostly because we have no clones.

 

Never said the whole thing sucks, it can make fun but doesn't change the fact that we got the same again only with other animations and more problems.

 

Eh, apart from getting rid of clones and their assorted weaknesses, it also has a strong AoE focus (something that mesmer has generally struggled with - there are tagging builds, sure, but mesmer has just never really been able to delete pocket raptor packs and deal with similar situations involving swarming enemies like some other professions can) and bladesongs don't require you to be within Illusory Persona range to get maximum benefit, so it's more suited to long-range combat than traditional mesmer (although it does still have close-range options). 

 

Not saying that there aren't problems, but I don't think it's fair to say that it brings nothing new to the table. The structure of the F1-F4 skills are pretty much bound to be power, condi, CC, and defence because that's what core mesmer traits assume. Similar to how guardian F1-F3 are pretty much always going to be something involving burning, something involving healing, and something involving defence.

 

Sure, there are possibly more exciting things that could be done with F1-F4, but to continue the guardian analogy, Virtuoso is probably roughly the equivalent of dragonhunter in terms of how much they got changed: trading an instant cast for something with a cast time, but which is potentially more impactful if it lands. Maybe we'll get the mesmer equivalent of firebrand that really does something weird with F1-F4 sometime in the future. But it will probably still be power, condi, CC, and defence regardless.

[Mik.3401]

On 10/2/2021 at 3:57 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Bit of a no-true-Scotsmen fallacy, there. Personally, if anything, I think Virtuoso is closer to the mesmer I mained from 2005 to 2012, when the only way you could get something like the GW2 mesmer was the Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support spamming build (which didn't exist in PvP).

 

There are problems with virtuoso, to be sure, but I think a lot of the backlash is that people who have been near-exclusively playing mesmer can't see themselves playing without clones, have spent years compensating for the very real issues clones have, and see problems as gamebreaking that other professions see as normal gameplay considerations.

I do see your points, also coming from GW1 Mesmer player here. But I kind of disagree, Virtuoso has way less rupt potential than other specs which is what Mesmer is about. Seeing that long-a$$ cast times does not really go with Fast casting attribute fantasy.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Virt is nothing like GW1 mes.
GW1 mes is a shutdown profession be it via e-denial, interrupt or anti-melee and anti-caster hexes.
Virt is a pure damage dealer.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Urphen.2857]

On 10/10/2021 at 2:52 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Eh, apart from getting rid of clones and their assorted weaknesses, it also has a strong AoE focus (something that mesmer has generally struggled with - there are tagging builds, sure, but mesmer has just never really been able to delete pocket raptor packs and deal with similar situations involving swarming enemies like some other professions can) and bladesongs don't require you to be within Illusory Persona range to get maximum benefit, so it's more suited to long-range combat than traditional mesmer (although it does still have close-range options). 

 

Not saying that there aren't problems, but I don't think it's fair to say that it brings nothing new to the table. The structure of the F1-F4 skills are pretty much bound to be power, condi, CC, and defence because that's what core mesmer traits assume. Similar to how guardian F1-F3 are pretty much always going to be something involving burning, something involving healing, and something involving defence.

 

Sure, there are possibly more exciting things that could be done with F1-F4, but to continue the guardian analogy, Virtuoso is probably roughly the equivalent of dragonhunter in terms of how much they got changed: trading an instant cast for something with a cast time, but which is potentially more impactful if it lands. Maybe we'll get the mesmer equivalent of firebrand that really does something weird with F1-F4 sometime in the future. But it will probably still be power, condi, CC, and defence regardless.

the AoE is finally a good thing and I’m happy Virt has these now.

 

its ok if the F skills have a Similar effect like core as it is on Guard but even then, Virtuoso only has now an Animation change thanks to changing clones to blades, on the other side Dragonhunter doesn’t only change Animation it adds effect to the skill, F1 is now a pull and can be traitet for dps boost, F2 now a jump and F3 adds a block wall, meanwhile Virtuoso adds nothing.

 

so I agree with you that a core part to the F skills will remain but adding nothing to them and now we are going 3 e-specs in and still have the same like core is the part that disappoints me that hard, because for other classes anet brings refreshing ideas but for mesmer we are stuck with the same thing forever it seems.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/10/2021 at 6:46 PM, Mik.3401 said:

I do see your points, also coming from GW1 Mesmer player here. But I kind of disagree, Virtuoso has way less rupt potential than other specs which is what Mesmer is about. Seeing that long-a$$ cast times does not really go with Fast casting attribute fantasy.

Yeah, it's certainly not an interrupt mesmer. It's probably closer to one of those Domination or Illusion builds that just tries to throw out as much armour-ignoring AoE damage as possible.  Often there was a bit of CC in there in the form of "do X and cop it" hexes (Mistrust, Wandering Eye, Clumsiness, etc) which would also cause actions to fail, but it's usually the damage you're really going for with those builds (although the damage potential is nice).

 

Point I was making is that people are treating clones as a sacred cow, when the only way you got GW1 mesmer to do that was by using skills that weren't actually mesmer skills (even then, that build is probably still closest to the deadeye "use premeditation to keep Thieves' Guild running permanently" build).

[Mik.3401]

20 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, it's certainly not an interrupt mesmer. It's probably closer to one of those Domination or Illusion builds that just tries to throw out as much armour-ignoring AoE damage as possible.  Often there was a bit of CC in there in the form of "do X and cop it" hexes (Mistrust, Wandering Eye, Clumsiness, etc) which would also cause actions to fail, but it's usually the damage you're really going for with those builds (although the damage potential is nice).

 

Point I was making is that people are treating clones as a sacred cow, when the only way you got GW1 mesmer to do that was by using skills that weren't actually mesmer skills (even then, that build is probably still closest to the deadeye "use premeditation to keep Thieves' Guild running permanently" build).

I still do not really see a similrity, because as you shown many of these illusion skills in GW1 had punish mechanic, virtuoso has none.

I do agree some GW2-only players might overvalue clones, but with the current state of virtuoso they are strictly superior in any regard possible. I do wish they made a solid clone less spec all about control and not so much about dps but well, I guess they don’t really know the lore f their own game given the new Anet team works on it

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

17 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

I still do not really see a similrity, because as you shown many of these illusion skills in GW1 had punish mechanic, virtuoso has none.

I do agree some GW2-only players might overvalue clones, but with the current state of virtuoso they are strictly superior in any regard possible. I do wish they made a solid clone less spec all about control and not so much about dps but well, I guess they don’t really know the lore f their own game given the new Anet team works on it

You don't see it because it isn't there. 

The closest gw2 mesmer was to GW1 mes was rupt with power block and chaotic interruption. And the clone death traits. 

Everything that resembles GW1 mes is "balanced" into oblivion. 

Virt is more similar to fire ele than it is to mesmer.

[Mik.3401]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You don't see it because it isn't there. 

The closest gw2 mesmer was to GW1 mes was rupt with power block and chaotic interruption. And the clone death traits. 

Everything that resembles GW1 mes is "balanced" into oblivion. 

Virt is more similar to fire ele than it is to mesmer.

100% agree exactly

[Morpeth.5318]

On 9/27/2021 at 6:31 AM, Mesket.5728 said:

The gunblade sucks, like a lot... Conceptually it's as stupid as gluing a gun to a greatsword (its actually more stupid, because its technological but shoots "magical-bullets" lol). Mechanically is boring af, its a one trick pony. A pose that rivals naruto-running. Putting your sword away and standing still in the middle of the fight to pose is stupid, not as an insult but by definition of what stupid means. So basically 350k is the ONLY thing this espec has to offer and it is so broken.

The espec will never ever work in pvp since they have 2 options: You either one shot people on pvp or you don't. If you don't, why use it? take any normal burst and it is better. Want to be tactical and time and land a powerful attack? take hundred blades on GS, we've doing that for 9 years already. People will not use this class unless they can one shot people in duels, perhaps a few weebs will. For PVE it is also broken, people are doing over 100k dps on raids with over 90% damage on one move. How on earth do people believe this is OK? or even fun after a while... Also, congratulations ANEt on making 3 power dps banner slaves espec in a row! I think not even on purpose you could blow this one up too.

100%!  Gunblade to me is the most awkward and ill conceived of them so far imo. I don't like the mechanic, it's clumsy/odd and the whole this feels super gimmicky -- and the build up for epic damage is sooooo slow for pvp or wvw. Did they test this or get user feedback, I don't expect I'll ever use it, at least in its current form.