Watch me make Unravel good (wow, it's actually this easy):

[Swagg.9236]

[Unravel]

Recharge: 5s | Ammo Count: 2

Stance. Initial effect: Reduce all attunement cooldowns and gain swiftness. For a period of time, you fully attune to elements, and your attunements recharge faster. Gain bonuses at every interval while under this effect.

- Initial Recharge Reduced: 100%

- Initial Swiftness (8s): 33% Movement Speed

- Unravel (5s): Fully attune to elements; temporarily lose dual attacks; your attunement recharges are further reduced. At every interval, gain a bonus based on your current attunement.

- Attunement Recharge Reduced: 75%

- Interval: 1s

- [Fire Attunement] Quickness (1¼s): Skills and actions are faster.

- [Water Attunement] Endurance Gained: 15

- [Air Attunement] Superspeed (1½s): Movement Speed is greatly increased.

- [Earth Attunement] Conditions Removed: 2

- Maximum Count: 2

- Count Recharge: 25s

- Breaks Stun

Bonus effect tick occurs at the start of every second, so the user will gain a bonus effect immediately upon activation according to whichever is the currently active attunement.  While under the effects of Unravel, Elementalist Attunements recharge in 1s.

[Stallic.2397]

So if I stay in Earth, not only will I break stun but I'll also cure 10 condi? Sounds pretty OP

 

Other than that, I like this idea

[Zergs.9715]

That seems too complicated. Unravel should be as simple as Berserker's Outrage.

 

Recharge: 10s | Duration: 5 secs

Stance. You fully attune to elements, and your attunements recharge faster.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Zergs.9715

[Downstate.4697]

This skill is already good?

[Downstate.4697]

2 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

This skill is already good?

Look up kahsua on youtube. He uses it properly in his pvp build. Its works fine. Maybe a cd reduction is needed.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yes the skill is good. Utility slots are expensive, most of weaver prefers a breakstun or flash etc.

But they underestimate the stenght of Unravel : with d/d you have easy access to all leaps, to chain them with no attunement swap CD; if you are disabled easy access to schoking aura, or protection (with arcane), or you can trigger Water traits twice (the heal on swap) + eventually cleanse on regen/woven  stride, same with fire traitlane and sunspot; and all combos with the short water field, fire field ... Plus unravel also give good boons for ele which is already good (we don't have a lot of sources of fury/vigor)

It's the same with scepter, easy access to phoenix, or sustain skills on focus.

 

Big issue, yeah you need good practice of the class; knowledge of all traits on swap, all CD, combos finishers, etc. If you already struggle to find the right dual skill or find the cleanse on focus; don't take unravel.
But you're not making it simpler, on contrary it's even more gimmickly than before IMO.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[AliamRationem.5172]

39 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Look up kahsua on youtube. He uses it properly in his pvp build. Its works fine. Maybe a cd reduction is needed.

I think it should be weaver F5.

[Brian.5324]

Yeah, Unravel is fine as-is. I take it on my main PvP and roaming builds (I play power LR dagger/focus) even over LF and stone resonance. FWIW, I wouldn’t take it with sword builds. 
 

Is it the strongest utility in the world? Probably not. Does it do its job and allow for clutch access to abilities in key moments? Yes, definitely.

 

[ScottBroChill.3254]

I use it for the might generation and it works fine for me

[Swagg.9236]

7 hours ago, Brian.5324 said:

Yeah, Unravel is fine as-is. I take it on my main PvP and roaming builds (I play power LR dagger/focus) even over LF and stone resonance. FWIW, I wouldn’t take it with sword builds. 
 

Is it the strongest utility in the world? Probably not. Does it do its job and allow for clutch access to abilities in key moments? Yes, definitely.

 

It allows for clutch access to abilities in key moments, but it's still apparently functional only alongside niche weapon sets and their associated stat spreads (as you admit with your comment about sword builds).  The point of this suggestion is to make Unravel viable for basically anybody wanting to experiment with that kind of flexibility.  In fact, I've found some success in PvP using it on staff, but it's still, very clearly, not optimal despite how interesting the mechanic is with regards to the kind of mix-up interactions the player can generate by triggering certain bonuses or getting rapid access to certain skills.  Unfortunately, that sort of agency is just not "viable" or "optimal" outside of certain scenarios--so it's probably best to adjust what Unravel provides in order to make up for that shortcoming.

 

4 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

I use it for the might generation and it works fine for me

You can passively generate might in so many easy ways, justifying Unravel's overall suboptimal performance based entirely on how it gives the user might stacks is a pretty weak argument. 

 

15 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Yes the skill is good. Utility slots are expensive, most of weaver prefers a breakstun or flash etc.

But they underestimate the stenght of Unravel : with d/d you have easy access to all leaps, to chain them with no attunement swap CD; if you are disabled easy access to schoking aura, or protection (with arcane), or you can trigger Water traits twice (the heal on swap) + eventually cleanse on regen/woven  stride, same with fire traitlane and sunspot; and all combos with the short water field, fire field ... Plus unravel also give good boons for ele which is already good (we don't have a lot of sources of fury/vigor)

It's the same with scepter, easy access to phoenix, or sustain skills on focus.

 

Big issue, yeah you need good practice of the class; knowledge of all traits on swap, all CD, combos finishers, etc. If you already struggle to find the right dual skill or find the cleanse on focus; don't take unravel.
But you're not making it simpler, on contrary it's even more gimmickly than before IMO.

It isn't about making the skill simplier; it's about having the skill provide something that the basic, meta-expectation weaver kit doesn't already bring to the table.  Moreover, you again make my own arguement for me like other people have been doing in this thread:  you explicitly reference specific traits, weapon sets, and internalizing CD timings.  These sorts of things aren't intrinsic to expanding player agency:  they're "good" (in GW2) because they're either passive (therefore, instant), set on fixed timers (i.e. part of a rotation--which doesn't require a lot of active thinking) or passively provide a lot of insulation from risk when taking actions (two people have already mentioned Unravel pairing with d/X, and I GUARANTEE you that's ONLY because d/X features free evades slapped onto movement/damage and not because "Unravel is good").

This version of Unravel's main draw wouldn't necessarily be the instant-gratification buffs along with access to a core weapon kit, but rather access to the core weapon kit along with the fact that all attunements would be reduced down to a baseline 1s.  This would allow an Unravel ele to rapidly make decisions on the fly for a brief period of time regarding how to approach or evade certain situations.  The 1s-interval tick bonuses are just gravy on top to make sitting in certain elements more practical than burning through the deck of weapon utility--it all comes down to context-specific decision making rather than reactivity (as you described with "easy access to shocking aura, or protection, or Water traits").  Sure, you could still be passive and reactive with this re-designed Unravel, but more than that you could be proactive in how you decide to affect the field by fielding combos or swapping back and forth between certain elements that otherwise wouldn't have been possible before.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Swagg.9236]

23 hours ago, Stallic.2397 said:

So if I stay in Earth, not only will I break stun but I'll also cure 10 condi? Sounds pretty OP

 

Other than that, I like this idea

Sure, but you'll also just be sitting in earth (which doesn't often offer a lot on its own).  I'd say that would be justification enough to keep it as it is, but then again, passive trash meme builds like Heart of Stone exist, so it'd probably be worth nerfing or changing it.  I'm just not sure what else to put as an earth bonus (outside of maybe barrier, but that's so boring/predictable, and it's oversaturated within the most low-effort/popular weaver kit already).

[Exzen.2976]

Unravel is already good for certain builds - dagger/x, scepter/dagger etc. It could potentially use a small buff - but definitely nowhere near as extreme as op suggested. Not saying I'd mind from an ele main pov, but it would make the skill completely overpowered!

1 hour ago, Swagg.9236 said:

(two people have already mentioned Unravel pairing with d/X, and I GUARANTEE you that's ONLY because d/X features free evades slapped onto movement/damage and not because "Unravel is good")

Wrong. It's good on scepter/dagger too because of phoenix, water trident and quick access to dagger offhand skills. The fact unravel can allow you to access skill that you would otherwise be locked out of is what makes it good. 

 

[Swagg.9236]

1 hour ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Unravel is already good for certain builds - dagger/x, scepter/dagger etc. It could potentially use a small buff - but definitely nowhere near as extreme as op suggested. Not saying I'd mind from an ele main pov, but it would make the skill completely overpowered!

Wrong. It's good on scepter/dagger too because of phoenix, water trident and quick access to dagger offhand skills. The fact unravel can allow you to access skill that you would otherwise be locked out of is what makes it good. 

 

You've said the same thing as everybody else in this thread:  "it's good for -CERTAIN- builds."  I'm trying to make this good for every weapon loadout because it's a fun skill which can open up a lot of different interactions.  I'll admit that the interval-tick part of this re-design is probably overpowered, but the main draw is that it would be really interesting to allow Elementalists to use Unravel to rapidly jump from element to element within its 5s duration (most issues regarding instant, passive trait damage shouldn't be a huge issue since most of them were nerfed).

Honestly, at the very minimum, if the skill just gave swiftness (8s) in addition to everything else it does right now, I'd probably be happier with it; but as it stands, it works for d/X because d/X has passive damage mitigation; it works for scepter/dagger because Phoenix is easy-mode, near-instant burst AoE damage; and it works for X/focus because focus is cheese with a lot of panic buttons for stalling damage, and one of the most unfair CC attacks in the game.  Since I was experimenting with it on staff, I noticed its shortcomings more than somebody who would be using a build that doesn't have as much instant damage and incoming effect mitigation passively built into it.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Brian.5324]

I’m sympathetic to some of the points made about making Unravel more universally useful (e.g. sword), but that’s more an issue of sword being designed with weaver mechanics in mind, and the dual attunement skills being slightly shoehorned on some of the core weapons. To a degree, this is inevitable due to espec design - overall, I think weaver is incredibly fun and quite elegant. My favorite class/spec in any MMO I’ve ever played for sure..

On a broader level, though, I’m okay with some utility skills being good on some loadouts and less good on others - isn’t that, like, the whole point of variety? If everything is good all the time, it becomes either centralizing, homogenous, or both. That makes a game overall less interesting, I think.

 

Also, taking focus alone makes Unravel somewhat of a consideration. Being able to access both earth skills on-demand is incredibly strong for reactive plays, especially obsidian flesh. Additionally, for MH dagger, you can get crazy mobility bursts, as well as big water field combos (e.g. steam surge in water/fire -> unravel > frozen burst -> swap earth -> focus earth 4 -> earth 3 -> dodge to proc EA blast finisher) that just aren't possible otherwise. On-demand invuln and a 6k+ heal already make the utility attractive. As others have pointed out, it also has some value for scepter. Staff’s issues are more related to staff itself, I think, and the fact that it’s 2H, so it’s less flexible.

 

I’m certainly not against buffing Unravel! Maybe, in addition to its base effects currently, it gives some cooldown to weapon skills when you swap to that attunement or something. I just don’t think pulsing effects for camping an attunement are a great idea, since you tend to cycle attunement a quickly during the duration of Unravel. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I think you want to denature the skill. I get your point on the "not good on itself, but because of weapon skills / attunement".

But it is not a button for free buff or free damage, it's a button to clear the elementalist of weaver's mechanic and attunement swap CD; and it allows abuse of traits on attunement swap and "core" skills #3 etc.

You should keep in mind this aspect and try to enhance it ; not give free candies in compensation no matter you make good use of the utility or not.

 

For example I would lower the duration (as you rarely swap more than once anyway) but put 3 charges or lower CD too. Or trigger a second time the effects on attunement swap also when you use the skill. Add the "Lingering Elements" effect for the duration...

Edited October 14, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Downstate.4697]

You guys are mad it only works for certain set ups? Welcome to every other utility in the game. 

[Swagg.9236]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

You guys are mad it only works for certain set ups? Welcome to every other utility in the game. 

So you'll just give up on potential player agency then?  Sure, optimal combinations can exist, but why would you let certain things languish in a state of forced or arbitrary incongruity and irrelevance when there are absolutely means by which they could be changed in order to promote more synergy and player expression?

[Exzen.2976]

I think the point is, there are other utilities in the ele kit which are worse and Unravel is actually good already with some builds. Other "good" utilities for some builds are not good for other load outs.

 

I'd rather anet worked skills that have no current use. Anyone actually use cleansing fire for example?

 

Not against a buff to unravel, but I think there are other priorities for ele

Edited October 14, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Swagg.9236]

2 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I think you want to denature the skill. I get your point on the "not good on itself, but because of weapon skills / attunement".

But it is not a button for free buff or free damage, it's a button to clear the elementalist of weaver's mechanic and attunement swap CD; and it allows abuse of traits on attunement swap and "core" skills #3 etc.

You should keep in mind this aspect and try to enhance it ; not give free candies in compensation no matter you make good use of the utility or not.

 

For example I would lower the duration (as you rarely swap more than once anyway) but put 3 charges or lower CD too. Or trigger a second time the effects on attunement swap also when you use the skill. Add the "Lingering Elements" effect for the duration...

"Denature" is an interesting take on this proposal, but it's not like I don't use Unravel.  I know exactly what it does, and I use it expressly for its obvious purpose in PvP on a zerker staff ele loadout.  That's why I drew attention more toward the "75% attunement recharge reduction while active" aspect of the skill rather than towards the tick buffs (even acknowledging that they're probably overpowered/overtuned).  Thinking about it more and playing with it again last night for a few games, I know why I hate the way that Unravel works, and it definitely comes down to the fact that after the initial attunement recharge reset, the player is still locked into that forced 4s recharge on all elements upon swapping.  Doing actual cool stuff on staff REQUIRES that you swap rapidly and combine certain area control elements with damage or soft CC.  The forced 4s Weaver recharge heavily muddles the ability for a player to do the only unique or remotely good thing that staff ele does (and I'm sure it's probably not too different for any other build).

People in this thread have repeatedly said that Unravel is "adequate" because, a lot of times, it seems that they're fishing for panic buttons or a specific burst button when they use Unravel rather than trying to chain skills across several elements; and this utility allows them to do that.  They aren't worried about several steps ahead across multiple elements, just one element in particular with the answer to whatever is happening on the field:  it's ultimately a reactive playstyle (or, in the case of bursting, one which hits a dead-end very quickly after maybe two key buttons).  Not to say that being able to pop Unravel reactively against certain threats is bad, but because it doesn't undo the Weaver 4s global cooldown on elements after the initial attunement recharge, it hampers the real potential that such a recharge might provide.  Upon reading through the thread and playing the game again, I think I'd prefer if Unravel, during its duration (even if the duration were shortened a bit), further reduced the global Weaver cooldown on attunements so that players could swap more rapidly through their respective core weapon set toolkit:

 

[Unravel]

Recharge: 5s | Ammo: 2

Stance. Initial effect: Reduce all attunement cooldowns and gain swiftness. For a period of time, you fully attune to elements, and your attunements recharge faster. Gain bonuses at every interval while under this effect.

- Initial Recharge Reduced: 100%

- Initial Swiftness (8s): 33% Movement Speed

- Unravel (4s): Fully attune to elements, temporarily lose dual attacks, and your attunement recharges are further reduced.

- Attunement Recharge Reduced: 90% (resulting in about a 0.4s global CD for faster swapping)

- Maximum Count: 2

- Count Recharge: 25s

- Breaks Stun

 

would even be enough considering how the main draw is just more weapon set flexibility.  The boons are OK, but they're pretty generic and were originally just thrown on their haphazardly in a desperate attempt by anet to make people take the skill more often.  If Unravel actually gave the player rapid and unfettered access to one's entire weapon kit, that on its own would probably be a good enough buff rather than relying on something as uninspired as "Look guys, i-it gives boons now!  P-please use it!"  I still think it deserves to grant baseline swiftness, though, because weaver can be slow as molasses sometimes while outside of combat; it's pretty awful.  The stun break would be a nice addition as well, but it probably isn't super necessary.

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Swagg.9236