Lazze.9870 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said: How exactly do you want to build a ranger elite spec which keeps all these mechanics functioning without having a pet around? And don't tell me that these effects then will simply affect the ranger instead, since this is literally just asking for another soulbeast, just with always being perma fused and no pet being available. Except I will tell you that is how it should work (or rather, that is one of the way it could work depending on what they actually do), because when you dumb it down it "it will just be another soulbeast", then you're in the same camp as the other people that claim that soulbeast is a "petless" spec. Soulbeast is not kittening petless, and in the game mode that shows off the mechanical width of all classes the most, PvP, permamerged soulbeast has never been the best way to play it. It interacts with the core pet mechanic, as core ranger do, as well as the merge. That is HUGELY different from replacing the entire core mechanic with new F skills. Yeah, some of the weapon effects and traits will carry over "just like soulbeast", but that doesn't kittening make it "basically soulbeast". And the "I am sure there is more stuff, but I guess you get the idea." Are you for real? Wording it as if you need to lecture me on the class? Eh.. - CC transfer: irrelevant, this trait is gonna be reworked once they get around to the 300ICD traits, it's never used in its current state anyway. - Empahtic Bond: mega trash, needs a rework anyway - Boon share: Copy the boons to the ranger, as Soulbeast do. Adjust durations for balance. - That one health regen trait in BM: affect the ranger, or just rework it because that trait has zero value outside of druid astral gain unless you're a soulbeast. - Next outgoing attacks: can easily be applied to the F skills which would replace the pet. So your next mechanic skill will do this and that. Or have it work like soulbeast, any outgoing attack. - Beast skills: easy, one of the new F skills will be classified as a beast ability. - Pet swap traits: switch between two modes, two set of F skills, enter some sort of small duration tranformation, anything. Let me flip the question around, how is giving us yet another elite spec that retains the core mechanic and wastes four of the F skills on the same old pet mechanic" not just "yet another core ranger" with a tweak? You're basically saying there is zero room to massively alter the ranger mechanic, unlike what they have done on other specs, because having some effects affect the ranger will "basically be copying the last elite spec". That's is incredibly narrowminded. And how is a kittening pet elite spec gonna give ranger any new role outside of PvE? Sidenoder and roamer for the third spec in a row, WUkittenINGHOOO! I'm sick and tired of explaining the same thing over and over. - Calling it "basically soulbeast" is narrowminded - Retaining the core pet mechanic for a third time in a row is limiting any potential - A spec more pet focused than core ranger is set for failure, and it puts core ranger in awkward place of not really being particlarly good at anything. As opposed to make core the best pet spec, and the loss of a pet or some pet functionality being a natural trade-off for its elite specs. The opposite for a pet spec would be a lower output from the ranger itself, and no one actually wants that. They want the ranger to be as good as it is, and the pet to do more damage. Yeah, good luck with that. Edited October 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 27 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: Except I will tell you that is how it should work (or rather, that is one of the way it could work depending on what they actually do), because when you dumb it down it "it will just be another soulbeast", then you're in the same camp as the other people that claim that soulbeast is a "petless" spec. Yes, it is just another soulbeast. Making effects which were to that point just affecting the pet affect the ranger instead was one of the prime design shticks of soulbeast since it's introduction. People were creating entire builds around that feature, like the oneshot longbow rangers using the massive damage buff from Sic' 'Em to burst enemies down, which led to this skill being nerfed for soulbeast interaction specifically, because who would have guessed that a skill which boosts your damage by 40% might be strong? You are taking one of the main design aspects of an elite spec and want to apply it to yet another elite spec for the same class. 31 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: Soulbeast is not kittening petless, and in the game mode that shows of the mechanical width of all classes, PvP, permamerged soulbeast has never been a thing. It interacts with the core pet mechanic, as core ranger do, as well as the merge. Agreed, soulbeast is not petless and I never said it is. I say it is as close to being petless as ranger will probably ever be. There is a difference in these 2 statements. 32 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: That is HUGELY different from replacing the entire core mechanic with new F skills. Yeah, some of the weapon effects and traits will carry over "just like soulbeast", but that doesn't kittening make it "basically soulbeast". As said above, this is one of the very defining aspects of the soulbeast as an elite spec. I don't think that they will put this mechanic on another elite spec which removes pets, since I think that many people would agree with me that it would feel way too similar to soulbeast. 44 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: Let me flip the question around, how is giving us yet another elite spec that retains the core mechanic and wastes four of the F skills on the same old pet mechanic" not just "yet another core ranger" with a tweak? You're basically saying there is zero room to massively alter the ranger mechanic, unlike what they have done on other specs, unless they pull off another druid. Well, that went kittening well, didn't it? You can keep the idea of having a pet and still replace large parts of the f-skill mechanics. People made several suggestions for this. I am sure you also have seen quite alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said: Yes, it is just another soulbeast. No, it's not. See what I did there? Put the same effort into my argument as you did. You're fixated on the idea that having some effects affect the ranger will automatically make it "another soulbeast", when soulbeast still have its uniqueness for its traits, the merge skills, the merge stats etc etc etc. A new elite spec will offer something completely different via its uniqueness. Edited October 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Lazze.9870 said: No, it's not. See what I did there? Put the same effort into my argument as you did. Except that I at least explained that the entire thing about traits/skills which previously affected the pet are now affecting the ranger is one of the defining features of soulbeast as an elite spec. But it seems you are just going to ignore arguments and indulge in your perceived feeling of superiority. We will see in 2 hours if Anet went for a petless elite spec or not. No point in further trying to have a discussion with you anymore which you are not willing to have in a civilised manner anyway. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said: Except that I at least explained that the entire thing about traits/skills which previously affected the pet are now affecting the ranger is one of the defining features of soulbeast as an elite spec. But it seems you are just going to ignore arguments and indulge in your perceived feeling of superiority. You're literally ignoring every single argument I'm presenting to you, and dumbing it down to that these effects are the "defining feature" of soulbeast. It's A feature of soulbeast. Not THE feature. The pet merge, in and out, is THE feature. Effects affecting you is just a natural way for those effect to work when merged. The same way having similar effects affect the ranger on a completely non-pet spec would be a natural way to do it. A different spec can still interact with those specific effects in a similar way and still be completely different in how it is played and used. How is that so hard to understand? It's easier to tell me that I'm ignoring your arguments, and that I'm indulging in a "percveived feeling of superiority" (how poetic of you), instead of answering the same question and the counter-arguments I have made for three comments in a row. As far as the next spec goes, it doesn't matter if its petless or not. That doesn't change the fact that a petless elite spec is still something they easily can do, and doing that doesn't make it "just another soulbeast". By petless I'm refering to not keeping the core mechanic, having an invulnerable animal spirit would basically be petless from a mechanical standpoint."You can keep the idea of having a pet and still replace large parts of the f-skill mechanics." You can keep the idea of a pet being there in some form. You can't keep the idea of core mechanic itself. Edited October 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said: You asked "isn't that petless enough". I gave you a kittening answer. You aren't following the conversation going on there very closely. Maybe you just got triggered on one line or something. I'm more than aware Soulbeast isn't 'pet-less'. Like it or not, Ranger isn't likely going pet-less for a few people that have concluded the pet is holding the class back. It's part of the theme. If you want 'pet-less' class, you already have 8 other solutions to that problem. PS .... word just in ... EoD NOT a pet-less Ranger espec. 😆 Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 9 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said: It's not ironic at all that people who like to play Ranger want to play their Rangers in WvW. Nothing stops you from doing that. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: You aren't following the conversation going on there very closely. Maybe you just got triggered on one line or something. I'm more than aware Soulbeast isn't 'pet-less'. Like it or not, Ranger isn't likely going pet-less for a few people that have concluded the pet is holding the class back. It's part of the theme. If you want 'pet-less' class, you already have 8 other solutions to that problem. It's actually like talking to a wall. Why don't you go find me the petless, but still within the ranger archetype class in the GW2 rooster? Have fun, it doesn't exsist. 5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Nothing stops you from doing that. It's like you're being naive on purpose. Edited October 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Nothing stops you from doing that. yeah there's a site called Meta Battle? perhaps you have heard of it? Anyway it's GOD and unless it says Ranger is 'the meta' hardly anyone allows you to join squads. still. And i'm not holding much hope for the new spec either. Edited October 20, 2021 by Dami.5046 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: It's actually like talking to a wall. Good,. it should feel like that because there isn't any rational argument for having an espec that removes the pet in the first place. There isn't any rational argument for EVER removing defining elements of a class theme to release an espec. Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dami.5046 said: yeah there's a site called Meta Battle? Metabattle prevents you from playing Ranger in WvW? Pretty sure it doesnt. Again, do NOT assume a pet-less ranger is the solution to performance in competitive game modes. Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) Just now, Obtena.7952 said: Good,. it should feel like that because there isn't any rational argument for having an espec that removes the pet. There isn't any rational argument for EVER removing defining elements of a class theme to release an espec. There is. Literally an entire game mode, actually. No point repeating my arguments for one so narrowminded as you. Edited October 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Dami.5046 said: yeah there's a site called Meta Builds? perhaps you have heard of it? Anyway it's GOD and unless it says Ranger is 'the meta' hardly anyone allows you to join squads. still. And i'm not holding much hope for the new spec either. You can create an own squad without such restrictions, tbf. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Kodama.6453 said: You can create an own squad without such restrictions, tbf. oh dear. 🤪 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Kodama.6453 said: You can create an own squad without such restrictions, tbf. This is the kind of low effort kitten people told necro players when they weren't allowed to join dungeons back at launch. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said: Metabattle prevents you from playing Ranger in WvW? Pretty sure it doesnt. i can roam sure, but that isn't what i said. Do you actually play a ranger? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, Lazze.9870 said: This is the kind of low effort kitten people told necro players when they weren't allowed to join dungeons back at launch. oh trust me, i play a necro and the kitten is still there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: There is. Literally an entire game mode, actually. That makes no sense. Never in this game has the theme of a class been gutted to improve it in any game mode. It's not going to happen here either. The only stubborn wall here are the people that think this is even a possibility Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: This is the kind of low effort kitten people told necro players when they weren't allowed to join dungeons back at launch. Yup, and it works. What's your excuse? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Yup, and it works. What's your excuse? well point me out a server which would follow a ranger wvw comm and i'll get into a guild there. Edited October 20, 2021 by Dami.5046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: That makes no sense. Never in this game has the theme of a class been gutted to improve it in any game mode. It's not going to happen here either. The only stubborn wall here are the people that think this is even a possibility Pet's aren't the entire theme of the class, nor do they have to "gut them" to make a spec essentially petless. The thing is, I main this class and I'm in an organized WvW guild. And I'm arguing with a narrowmind person that thinks "just play it, make your own party" is a valid counter argument Edited October 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: Pet's aren't the entire theme of the class, NO, that's true, they are a part of it ... and what I said is relevant to removing a part of the theme as well. You think I'm narrow minded ... I'm just woke to the fact that class theme isn't something that is going to get changed to improve performance in competitive game modes. Apparently, Anet may think so to, since they have NEVER adjusted class theme to make improvements. See, that's where your thinking fails ... because there are fixes that are more accessible than changing theme for performance. Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: NO, that's true, they are a part of it ... and what I said is relevant to removing a part of the theme as well. Can it be done on a mechanical level? Yes. Would it give ranger access to builds that would perform better at content it is currently less good at? Yes. Do I then bother to argue further with narrowminded people that are stuck on the idea that every ranger must retain the core pet mechanic in all of its elite spec, because it just has to? No, I don't. Not when Anet has already proven themselves how a "petless" (non AI) ranger can work. Edited October 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: Can it be done on a mechanical level? Yes. Would it give ranger access to builds that would perform better at content it is currently less good at? Yes. Sure, anything CAN be done ... those kinds of statements aren't relevant. In fact, because anything can be done is another likely reason changing theme isn't a path to performance improvement. You don't know if it would give you better performance. You're just assuming that. Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Dami.5046 said: well point me out a server which would follow a ranger wvw comm and i'll get into a guild there. What's it worth to you? I'm not doing this because I'm charitable. Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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