I think the core of the PvE balance problems is...

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Possibly true, but still, the pressure of the timer causes players to make unnecessary mistakes, especially when first learning the raid, and also makes it harder for teams to run "safe" builds, like PVT armor instead of Zerk/Viper.

You just gave a very good reason for timers to exist. Thanks for the support!

It's entirely a matter of perspective. Do you want raids that everyone can enjoy, or just a handful of players?

It is impossible to make content which everyone enjoys. And seeing that the rest of the game is very casual, I'd rather have at least something hardcore that I can enjoy. Not that raids are particularly hard in this game. They just aren't the cakewalk the rest of the game is.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Even if the latter one requires less skill, it allows the player to practice.

I don't think what you want has anything to do with practicing mechanics. You have your own unique idea of what practice is and I'll never agree with it.There is no such thing as incremental improvement using gear, you learn the bad way of doing things, you follow that forever, your idea that a player will "learn" and then try better is a flawed one because otherwise we wouldn't have such an issue breaking bars in the open world, would we? We wouldn't see clear and obvious mistakes, by the same people, in every encounter. The rest of the game shows us that your idea of "training" doesn't work.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Even if the latter one requires less skill, it allows the player to practice.

I don't think what you want has anything to do with practicing mechanics. You have your own unique idea of what practice is and I'll never agree with it.

Likely true, but that doesn't mean that your idea of what practice is is better for me than my idea of practice, and if ANet's idea is to engage as many players as possible, it's good to be flexible to different players' needs. We don't have to agree on what is best for each other, we just just to agree to allow each to play his own.

There is no such thing as incremental improvement using gear, you learn the bad way of doing things, you follow that forever,

Provably false. Absolute nonsense. Again, some players will choose to "learn the bad way" and stick with it, and if that satisfies them, then so what? Let them. But those people would never be the ones to power over the hump and "learn the right way" anyway, nothing is lost there. But there are other people, myself among them, that choose to push ourselves, and improve because we CAN, not because we're forced to, and we will try to do better and better each time, even if it isn't strictly neccessary.

You know your argument is wrong, because you know that there are plenty of groups in raids that pressed for more and more and more efficient ways of clearing them, even after they already managed to clear the bare minimum requirements. If you can accept that there are people who would try to beat it in all greens, or try to beat it in the minimum time, or try to beat it with minimal members, then why can't you accept the idea that someone who could complete it in twenty minutes would ever try to beat that time?

[Draco.9480]

I prefer chronos to distort to save DPS uptime. people should play well with their class and not just yolo and lower others' people DPS just cuz ya want that "fun" experience. The most fun experience is the hardcore speed clearing that is way more challenging. I enjoy more distorting greens than just giving buffs without any effort. If a chrono can't distort then why should we bring him? hence just bring FB that gives quickness and more DPS. Each class has its roles and suppose to use his class to its maximum potential. Also, all classes should be optimal in terms of DPS so there won't be discrimination and elitism, the only difference is to which type of damage to bring such as power vs condi since there are bosses in favor of power and others are in favor of condi.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Again, some players will choose to "learn the bad way" and stick with it, and if that satisfies them, then so what? Let them.

Then it's not "training" or "practice" anymore. The purpose of training is to learn something, you don't learn something so you don't use it.And again, those players shouldn't play the content if they want to "learn the bad way". There is more than enough content that they can leech and get carried by others who do not use the bad way. You know for every bad player out there even on open world bosses, there is a good player. If they were all bad, content wouldn't ever succeed. So take your "let them" argument away of here because it's absolute garbage.

[TexZero.7910]

@Ohoni.6057 said:That depends entirely on what learning process works best for you. If you learn by jumping out of a plane repeatedly until you figure out how a parachute works, then sure, you're right. If you feel that the best way to learn is to try the optimum strategy and fail it repeatedly until it works, then fine, that works for you. But for others, it's best to take less than optimal times, perform at a less than optimal level, but still eventually pass the hurdle, and then repeat and repeat and refine and refine until you get it down to a science.Don't engage in semantics, you know full well what I mean and my point stands.

I mean, if that's your argument it's a bad one as you're the one loading up the plane without a parachute to begin with. You're literally opting into "durability" when all of the damage can be avoided, thus you are reinforcing bad habits and you'll never even learn what a parachute is or how to spell it.

Also is it really semantics when it's the truth ? There's no phase skipping in raids you literally have to do all the phases of each encounter unless a bug exist ( like the one time i had KC go from 66% -> 0)

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Again, some players will

choose

to "learn the bad way" and stick with it, and if that satisfies them, then so what? Let them.

Then it's not "training" or "practice" anymore.

It doesn't have to be. It can be, the option for it to be should be available, but if an individual player chooses to not take advantage of that option, that is also fine. So long as he's happy with his play experience, everybody wins.

And again, those players shouldn't play the content if they want to "learn the bad way". There is more than enough content that they can leech and get carried by others who do not use the bad way.

The purpose is not to "leech." Everyone should know what they are getting into, and I would agree with you if you would argue that this person should not be in a group with someone who intends to speed clear. But if the potential is there to complete a 10 minute boss in 30 minutes for more casual players, and if a group posts on LFG "30 minute casual clear group," and people join that group knowing what to expect, then who is harmed?

Keep in mind that the leech player can always leech under the current system. All this would do is give him a place to go where he wouldn't be a leech.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:It doesn't have to be. It can be, the option for it to be should be available, but if an individual player chooses to not take advantage of that option, that is also fine. So long as he's happy with his play experience, everybody wins.

Training can only be training to be training. Training not for training, is not training. If a player chooses not to take advantage of training in content then they won't do the content.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:It doesn't have to be. It

can

be, the

option

for it to be should be

available,

but if an individual player chooses to not take advantage of that option, that is also fine. So long as he's happy with his play experience, everybody wins.

Training can only be training to be training. Training not for training, is not training. If a player chooses not to take advantage of training in content then they won't do the content.

Why do you keep insisting that it has to be training?

Like let's say someone spends some time each day jogging. Are they training to run a 5K? Maybe. That's possible. Are they just jogging at the pace they're comfortable with because they like jogging? That's possible too. So long as they are happy with their choice, who are you to say they're doing it wrong?

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

And again, those players shouldn't play the content if they want to "learn the bad way". There is more than enough content that they can leech and get carried by others who do not use the bad way.

The purpose is not to "leech." Everyone should know what they are getting into, and I would agree with you if you would argue that this person should not be in a group with someone who intends to speed clear. But if the potential is there to complete a 10 minute boss in 30 minutes for more casual players, and if a group posts on LFG "30 minute casual clear group," and people join that group knowing what to expect, then who is harmed?

The players seeking challenge. You're assuming you can have the potential for 30-minute clears without affecting the overall difficulty of the encounter. That's simply a wrong assumption. You have to reduce the difficulty to make such a grind possible and this will harm the fun of said players. Keep in mind, the raids are specifically targeted to entertain these exact players. Because the rest, the more casual players? They have the rest of the game to entertain themselves.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Why do you keep insisting that it has to be training?

Because training is... training.If I want to train to pilot a plane, I'll keep training until I can pilot it without killing myself and others. If I find it too much for me then I will simply not pilot planes.If I want to train to play football on an actual team, then I'll train until I can play football on a team. If I can't become good at it, then I won't play football for a team.And for your example, you got it backwards.If I want to train to run a 5k, then I'll train to do that. If I find out I get tired at 2k and 5k is too much for me, then I won't run 5k.In a similar manner, if I want to do a Raid, I'll train until I can do it. If it's too much for me, then I won't Raid (or practice harder).

You first set the target: (pilot planes, play football on a team, run 5k, Raid) and then you train for them if you want to reach that target.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

And again, those players shouldn't play the content if they want to "learn the bad way". There is more than enough content that they can leech and get carried by others who do not use the bad way.

The purpose is not to "leech." Everyone should know what they are getting into, and I would agree with you if you would argue that this person should not be in a group with someone who intends to speed clear. But if the potential is there to complete a 10 minute boss in 30 minutes for more casual players, and if a group posts on LFG "30 minute casual clear group," and people join that group knowing what to expect, then who is harmed?

The players seeking challenge.

How are they harmed? They wouldn't be in the same group as this guy. Or, at least they would have a better chance of not being in a group with this guy than they currently have.

You're assuming you can have the potential for 30-minute clears without affecting the overall difficulty of the encounter. That's simply a wrong assumption. You have to reduce the difficulty to make such a grind possible and this will harm the fun of said players. Keep in mind, the raids are specifically targeted to entertain these exact players. Because the rest, the more casual players? They have the rest of the game to entertain themselves.

Eh, just remove the enrage timer. Anyone who can clear it in ten minutes or less now would have the same trouble clearing it in ten minutes or less in the new way, there would just be other options for slower people. If there do need to be any actual changes made, then they can just split the two modes, like with Fractals. Players who wouldn't be entertained by that could play the version that would entertain them.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Why do you keep insisting that it

has

to be training?

Because training is... training.

Indisputably true. And not training is less training. And sometimes training is sometimes training. But the point is, it doesn't matter whether you consider it training or not, whether it's training or not does not actually matter to anything.

If I want to train to pilot a plane, I'll keep training until I can pilot it without killing myself and others. If I find it too much for me then I will simply not pilot planes.

True, but you don't learn to pilot planes by taking off repeatedly in an actual plan and learning a bit more from each crash. And if all a person wants to do is enjoy a flight simulator, then he can just enjoy the flight simulator, and never take it seriously enough that he could actually be trusted in an actual cockpit. And who knows, maybe someone who starts out just playing in a flight simulator for fun would eventually get so good at it that he's qualified to have a career in it.

If I want to train to play football on an actual team, then I'll train until I can play football on a team. If I can't become good at it, then I won't play football for a team.

And yet plenty of people enjoy playing amateur football between friends, with no hope of ever becoming a professional.

You understand that not everyone needs to become top tier in something for them to enjoy their experience, right?

If I want to train to run a 5k, then I'll train to do that. If I find out I get tired at 2k and 5k is too much for me, then I won't run 5k.In a similar manner, if I want to do a Raid, I'll train until I can do it. If it's too much for me, then I won't Raid (or practice harder).

But again, there's no harm in people who might enjoy jogging without wanting to get to a 5K level.

You first set the target: (pilot planes, play football on a team, run 5k, Raid) and then you train for them if you want to reach that target.

If that's what you want to do, but that's by no means the only way to live. Some people prefer to enjoy the trip, rather than focus on the destination, and that's fine too.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

And again, those players shouldn't play the content if they want to "learn the bad way". There is more than enough content that they can leech and get carried by others who do not use the bad way.

The purpose is not to "leech." Everyone should know what they are getting into, and I would agree with you if you would argue that this person should not be in a group with someone who intends to speed clear. But if the potential is there to complete a 10 minute boss in 30 minutes for more casual players, and if a group posts on LFG "30 minute casual clear group," and people join that group knowing what to expect, then who is harmed?

The players seeking challenge.

How are they harmed? They wouldn't be in the same group as this guy. Or, at least they would have a better chance of not being in a group with this guy than they currently have.

You're assuming you can have the potential for 30-minute clears without affecting the overall difficulty of the encounter. That's simply a wrong assumption. You have to reduce the difficulty to make such a grind possible and this

will

harm the fun of said players. Keep in mind, the raids are specifically targeted to entertain

these

exact players. Because the rest, the more casual players? They have the rest of the game to entertain themselves.

Eh, just remove the enrage timer. Anyone who can clear it in ten minutes or less now would have the same trouble clearing it in ten minutes or less in the new way, there would just be other options for slower people. If there do need to be any actual changes made, then they can just split the two modes, like with Fractals. Players who wouldn't be entertained by that could play the version that would entertain them.

Like I've explained time and again, removing the enrage timers would do nothing. Groups do not wipe because of enrage timers, they wipe because they are failing mechanics. They'll keep failing mechanics and they'll keep wiping. The vast majority of the raid wipes are LONG before the enrage timer.

Even more, a lot of the encounters have a wipe mechanic that's not tied to the timer. You'll still fail Gorseval without a certain amount of dps because you'll run out of updrafts. Likewise you'll fail Sabetha because of broken platform and Trio because of dead prisoners.

Even more, there are encounters where timer is irrelevant. You can survive an enraged Matthias or Cairn and still kill them.

You're fixating on the timers. They aren't a problem. They are a pity mechanic, serving to show the players they are doing something wrong. It's not their dps, it's their handling of the fight mechanics. You can't enable casual players to play raids without tampering with their mechanics. And then the raids will no longer be challenging. And then the players who enjoy raiding won't have anything to do in this game.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:True, but you don't learn to pilot planes by taking off repeatedly in an actual plan and learning a bit more from each crash.You do. In a simulator. Fortunately deaths in Raids are not real deaths but for planes they had to compromise. Also, planes are expensive. If you could be revived and planes were free, you wouldn't need a simulator right?

And yet plenty of people enjoy playing amateur football between friends, with no hope of ever becoming a professional.

Enjoying jogging, enjoying flight simulators, enjoying playing football with friends is what the rest of the content in the game is.Flying actual planes, playing on a football team, running 5k are all different activities than the above, they require higher levels of commitment and skill on the same primary skills. If you are amazing when playing football with your friends, you might go and try to get professional. If you are good with flight simulators, you might want to consider a career as a pilot. If your jogging time is excellent, you might want to become an actual athlete. If you are good enough in Fractals, you might want to try Raids too. And so on.

Some people prefer to enjoy the trip, rather than focus on the destination, and that's fine too.

There is a rather long progression trip in the game that you can enjoy. You should try looking at the game as a whole. You can't possibly skip to Automated Tournaments, without first becoming a good player in PVP and reaching a high rank. You can't possibly go and do T4 Fractals in CM, without first clearing the tutorial instance. The trip is there.

How did this thread turn into another "Add an easy mode for Raids please" thread?

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:Like I've explained time and again, removing the enrage timers would do nothing. Groups do not wipe because of enrage timers, they wipe because they are failing mechanics. They'll keep failing mechanics and they'll keep wiping. The vast majority of the raid wipes are LONG before the enrage timer.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure. At least part of those wipes is due to everyone building as close to the line as they can, as glassy as possible. If they didn't have to rush to the finish line, if they could slot tankier gear, tankier traits and utilities, then not only could they maybe survive at least some of the mechanics due to being able to tank through them, but also they could afford to pay more attention to the mechanics because they wouldn't have to worry about their DPS rotations. If a group could just "play to stay alive and maybe hit the enemy every now and then," and still eventually beat it, then they would stand a much better chance of staying alive.

It's basically like if you give someone a hundred question test and tell them they have all the time they need to finish it, then they will get a certain score, while if you tell them they only have ten minutes to complete it, then even if in the first example they did complete it in ten minutes, the pressure of having to rush is likely to cause them to make more errors and waste more time.

Even more, a lot of the encounters have a wipe mechanic that's not tied to the timer. You'll still fail Gorseval without a certain amount of dps because you'll run out of updrafts. Likewise you'll fail Sabetha because of broken platform and Trio because of dead prisoners.

This is true, but those mechanics could be changed if the idea is that "time shouldn't be a factor." For example with Gorseval, the entire "updrafts and shield" mechanic could reset at the ten minute mark, letting people restart that circuit. Players who can already clear it within ten minutes would need nothing from that, but teams taking over ten minutes to clear it would be able to keep rolling.

You're fixating on the timers. They aren't a problem. They are a pity mechanic, serving to show the players they are doing something wrong. It's not their dps, it's their handling of the fight mechanics. You can't enable casual players to play raids without tampering with their mechanics. And then the raids will no longer be challenging. And then the players who enjoy raiding won't have anything to do in this game.

Again, If that's necessary, then they can just split off easy versions, and players who don't want to play easy versions wouldn't have to. Not an issue.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:You do. In a simulator. Fortunately deaths in Raids are not real deaths but for planes they had to compromise. Also, planes are expensive. If you could be revived and planes were free, you wouldn't need a simulator right?

But the point is, you can use a simulator to train to be a real pilot, OR you can use a simulator just to have fun flying around. Likewise you could use a lower pressure raid option to train for the higher pressure version OR just play it for its own sake. If you don't want to use it for training purposes, you don't have to. That is not a flaw in the system.

Enjoying jogging, enjoying flight simulators, enjoying playing football with friends is what the rest of the content in the game is.Flying actual planes, playing on a football team, running 5k are all different activities than the above, they require higher levels of commitment and skill on the same primary skills.

That's over aggrandizing the raids. They're just raids, you aren't some pro athlete or pilot just because you can raid, deflate a little so you can fit through doors without banging your head.

The point is, there can be a version of a raid that offers the same basic experience, like flight simulators, amateur football or jogging at your own pace, without the pressures of doing it at the higher intensity. Your argument is like saying that if you can't 5K, you shouldn't be able to jog at all, and the closest you can come is walking, or if yuo can't be in the NFL then you can't play football at all, and the best you could settle for is soccer (I'm sure our friends in Europe will find that one hilarious, as intended).

There is a rather long progression trip in the game that you can enjoy. You should try looking at the game as a whole.

Again, I'm not considering raids as "a part of the game," I'm considering them as "a specific type of activity in the game." You do distinct things there that don't take place in other distinct parts of the game, and that's the experience that I'd like to see democratized.

How did this thread turn into another "Add an easy mode for Raids please" thread?

Because they haven't added one yet.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:But the point is, you can use a simulator to train to be a real pilot, OR you can use a simulator just to have fun flying around.

That's not how it works. You can be certain that the simulators being used for actual pilots are not the same used to play for fun. And if the results of failure with planes weren't as high (death) then there would be no point in simulators. Just pilot the real thing.

That's over aggrandizing the raids. They're just raids, you aren't some pro athlete or pilot just because you can raid, deflate a little so you can fit through doors without banging your head.

Nice exaggeration there. I didn't compare Raids to being a pro-athlete, I said a pro-athlete and a casual player are two completely different things and the same things applies to Raids, Raids and other content are indeed different. You can see it in a different way, in football / Guild Wars 2, a player can playcasually with friends / open worldlow national division / dungeonshigh national division / T4 fractalsinternational play / raidsAll is about the same game (Football / Guild Wars 2) but completely different tiers of play.I was talking about tiers of play, not equating a Raider with a pro-football player, I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

Again, I'm not considering raids as "a part of the game," I'm considering them as "a specific type of activity in the game."

Then, that's your mistake I can't help with that. Next thing you'll ask for, is to be accepted into an Automated Tournament and win it, just because you "tried it" and had "fun" in it.

Because they haven't added one yet.

This isn't the topic though.

[Maunzi.3764]

@Aldath.1275 said:I've noticed that part of the problem with this "my class isn't dealing enough DPS, buff pls" mentality is that people seems to be striving to be able to do good in a speed clear, that every class should be optimal

No, that's you just lying/making things up. The problem with your mentality is that you ascribe intention to people that said nothing like this, to better dismiss them without addressing the actual argument. Classic straw man argument, a typical sign of someone that has no good argument and knows it.

It's not about speed runs, it's about average runs. Average runs want people to contribute, and will always pick what contributes over what doesn't. If you have four DPS slots, and you pick four classes that do 25% more damage than the fifth class, you are essentially running with five DPSers in comparison to what you'd have had if you ran it with the sixth class. It's like running with 11 people.

I understand that math is difficult for people that can only handle arguments when engaging with strawmen, but that is the reality of the game. Bad classes get kicked from runs for the class, before the player has any chance to rectify the class=bad impression. And groups do this because it's the smart thing to do.

The second fallacy people use is equally silly. They essentially argue that, since speedrun groups can easily meet timers, timers don't matter. The thing is: Speedrun groups do this because they use good classes in the first place.Speedrunners aside, the longer a fight takes, the more likely is a wipe for average groups. The most common strategies used by the raiding community require good dps. No updraft Gorseval and Keep Construct skipping the kneeling adds are the most obvious examples for this, but it holds true for every fight, especially the ones.

It is simply logical and rational to kick low-dps classes and run with much higher group DPS. Running with the bad classes is the same as running with 8-9 people, DPS wise. Why would you do that? Most people have no reason to do that. It's rational to run with 10 people, and it's rational to pick classes for those people that contribute properly as well.

BTW: Pugs often run into enrage timers, especially at bosses like Matthias, because people start to die. This is why it is so important to maximize DPS. The longer a fight takes, the less likely deaths are for everyone and the easier it is to finish a fight before more people die.

@Aldath.1275 said:I think people would be less concerned about overall DPS if battles forced players to stay mobile,

The opposite is true. This would make people focus on DPS more, to ensure that you minimize problems that can arise due to the chaotic nature of the fight. The more mobility matters, the more reason you have to minmax dps.

[Shoyoko.7309]

You say timer is not the issue yet it is obvious that this has contributed to the dps stigma and how people view PVE balance and meta builds surrounding it. When looking at guides for raids, every single vid says to upkeep high dps per second because obviously less time means less trouble but to also kill the boss within time safely.

Although you say that timer is not strict in raids, you cannot deny it is one of the things that does add pressure especially if you were to go in now to raids as a new player... you are pressured to believe that if you don’t have high dps, you and your team might run out of time therefore must play meta builds which have higher chance of reaching the highest dps their class can do. This type of perception strengthens the more they play raids.

Overwhelmingly, as much people can say raids should not affect the other areas of Pve- this thread shows that it does since if raids is known as the hardest Pve endgame content/ “the last boss”- players see raids as a testament to what their class can really do now and in any future challenging pve content and whether there are builds within their class that are necessary factors within a Pve team/squad.

Like what Ohoni.6057, perhaps providing an option for raids to have no timer but less rewards will help lessen the burden to think about clearing boss within time and may open avenues of different alternatives of how to complete raids despite how less optimal it may be- we have many players who are willing to spend more time and are empathetic to try out different things. Thus showing that classes can also be still useful in other areas in less optimal situations.

[Maunzi.3764]

The real issue in raids is not the TIMER of the boss itself, but the soft timer of the mechanics. Take a random pug run with cairn. The longer the fight takes, the more stacks people accumulate, the harder it becomes to reach the spots for not as good players.

People die, people get downed, and low DPS leads to more of the big knockback waves once the fight progresses that far, which can kill people easily if things go bad.

High DPS will ALWAYS counter this. The higher your DPS, the easier a fight. There is no design that can be done to "fix" this. It will always be true, and because of that will always make groups want to maximize DPS.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Maunzi.3764 said:The second fallacy people use is equally silly. They essentially argue that, since speedrun groups can easily meet timers, timers don't matter. The thing is: Speedrun groups do this because they use good classes in the first place.

The argument is that bosses have a fixed health, which means the dps needed to kill them is known, or can be calculated. And the highest dps builds aren't needed to reach that threshold. So even if you use less powerful builds you can reach the dps requirement of the bosses.

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

@Ellisande.5218 said:Raiders don't actually like the mechanics involved in raiding. They are just in it either for the rewards or the prestige. Developers would be better served to stop making raids and simply find a new outlet for the same rewards in the open world content which more people play and actually enjoy and which would thus be a better use of the money that was previously wasted on making raids.

this is very true raids was a super big waste of the Devs time and moneys . this is why every one does not want to raid or even care about raids or that rubbish . now the Devs i think not fully gotten that idea yet but i do think they are coming around to it. maybe only time will be the teller of that tail

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

honestly OP has not the concepts of PVE at all . for me and lot of us out their we do not give a rip or hoot about DPS and or raids at all . the devs wasted a lot of money on this and tying it to force us pve people to do raids to get the mastery stuff done was very wrong . not saying i can not raid i am saying i do not like raids and do not care about them at all. same goes for wvw pvp. i can do them but just do not care about them . in guild wars i only played pvp for the rank if i remember right. other wise all i played and so did every one that played that game as well as PVE . and that is for a good long time held and KEEP that game so active and good.

guild wars 2 on the other hand different story the past dev time that did guild wars no longer works on this game at all . they add wvw raids alone with pvp made then 3 things a joke they have done some what ok to a point with pve. but they can and do still make mistakes their . but yet so far pve it where the game can really shine its best with out these if it is given more time and with out the dealing with or worrying about your and other players DPS junk .

DPS raids wvw for the birds .

[Rauderi.8706]

@Aldath.1275 said:Having Raided in FFXV, I think people would be less concerned about overall DPS if battles forced players to stay mobile, on their toes, instead of trying to pull complex rotations to make your team not get screwed by green circles that shouldn't even be allowed to be distorted.

So... Social Awkwardness in every Raid? :)