Champion Unstable Abomination (spoilers)

[Tyson.5160]

Back in Episode 3 of Season 3, A Crack in the Ice, Jormag was experimenting with a Zhaitan and Mordremoth Icebrood, which resulted in an unstable minion. In this stage of the story we learned that Taimi had a theory that Primordus and Jormag were each other’s weakness. Was Jormag at this stage experimenting with the Icebrood to see what would happen if Jormag had absorbed Primordus’s magical energy, should Jormag had killed Primordus?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

That would require the assumption that Zhaitan and Mordremoth are each others' weaknesses which is still unconfirmed (and if it is confirmed, then it negates the entire argument that we needed to kill both Jormag and Primordus at the same time, which, imo, would retroactively worsen the horridness that was Champions just as much as the apparent not-needing-4-living-ED retroactively worsens the S3/PoF plot - again, in my opinion). An additional issue the idea of Z and M being each others' weaknesses is that Mordremoth consumed Zhaitan's magic - so Jormag should already know what would happen if they ate Primordus' if Z & M were mutual weaknesses. And Mordremoth didn't seem all too bothered by Zhaitan's magic.

It would also require for Jormag to even care for such an outcome - until Champions, in IBS Jormag had shown that it was very hesitant in absorbing magic freely unlike Kralkatorrik and Primordus, and only began to do so because it needed an upper edge over Primordus and Aurene wasn't willing to help.

[Kayberz.5346]

We didn't need to kill jormag and primordus at the same time time because they were each others weakness, them being each others weakness just made it the most convenient and practical option.

The reason they both needed to be killed at the same time in champions is because if we had killed either one of them without killing the other at that time than the remaining dragon would have become too powerful for us to defeat which would have resulted in tyria being destroyed/frozen

Also they never once stated that there needs to be a certain number of elder dragons alive to balance the all in s3 or pof, just that there needed to be "something" to replace the elder dragons. Whether that be one or multiple entities

 

None of these things "negates" anything 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

We didn't need to kill jormag and primordus at the same time time because they were each others weakness, them being each others weakness just made it the most convenient and practical option.

Not according to Jormag:

Jormag: That's why I need you. You know the prophecy: only Primordus can kill me. I won't risk taking him head-on.

And Taimi:

<Character name>: There's really no other way to kill Primordus or Jormag?

Taimi: They're each other's weakness. Like Mordremoth's was its mind. And without my machine...

Granted, Taimi's not the end-all know-all, given that right after the above, she said::

Taimi: I don't think they're going to duke it out physically. Feels like that would be a disaster anyway.

And it apparently turned out perfectly swell! But Jormag is stated by the devs to never lie. So either Jormag is mistaken and other things can kill them, or they can't.

Either way, it was never suggested that Jormag would become gain Primordus' strength (or vice versa) and thus become powerful to be stopped, but that Jormag's sole weakness was Primordus, so with their weakness gone, they couldn't be stopped - Jormag's personal power levels wasn't entirely relevant.

2 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Also they never once stated that there needs to be a certain number of elder dragons alive to balance the all in s3 or pof, just that there needed to be "something" to replace the elder dragons. Whether that be one or multiple entities

In Season 3:

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...

Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?

Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

[...]

<Character name>: Taimi...

Taimi: I know. We're completely nooked!

<Character name>: Are you sure this is accurate? Will it really...?

Taimi: There's a definite margin for error, but I think it's sound. Oh, I don't know! I'm so tired! Please don't be mad at me!

[...]

Taimi: I know, but magic is so out of whack. If one more goes, all of Tyria might just collapse in on itself.

Which is basically saying "eliminating dragons adds magic to the world, and the fallout was expected and we should be able to handle it, but something else is up and we probably can't handle that."

And in Path of Fire:

Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.

Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.

Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.

Yes, "a certain number of Elder Dragons need to be alive" was not said, but that's what's being inferred when Taimi says "if one more goes" or "when two Elder Dragons died, a void was created, and replacements are needed to fill that void".

I mean, you yourself saying "there needs to be something to replace the Elder Dragons" is the exact same thing, you're just being lenient with what that "replacement"; the issue is that if merely anything taking in magic would work, then Balthazar killing and taking an Elder Dragon's magic would have solved the issue, thus negating the entire purpose of the Commander antagonizing Balthazar. In other words, there was no need to stop Balthazar because he would take that overflow of magic. Similarly in War Eternal, Taimi and Aurene state:

Aurene: Now we must ride...scion and champion. Flush Kralkatorrik...from the Mists.

Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.

Aurene: Yes. My vision came true. And so must his.

Which is to say, the world wouldn't survive losing that magic, even if The All is stabilized by Aurene's replacement. Despite the world gaining even more magic into its system by Balthazar's death (not all of his magic came from the Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag).

Then there's another thing Taimi brings up about the balance and the issue:

<Character name>: Taimi, focus... When Balthazar died, Kralkatorrik absorbed most of his freed energy.

<Character name>: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.

Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.

So apparently even an Elder Dragon becoming much more powerful threatens the balance? Despite it containing all the magic and preventing an overflow of magic into the world?

 

So which is it then? Is it merely an overflow of magic, which Taimi accounted for and believed we could handle even without a replacement, and a mere container or reduction of that magic from the system be an inefficient solution (despite beint a very literal way of solving the issue)? Or The All's balance between 'pillars', which then apparently doesn't matter because Aurene somehow manages it all.

And if it is simply overflow of magic, then how is Aurene managing it, when she isn't keeping magic out of Tyria? Is she putting it off into the Mists? If so why was killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists a bad thing?

 

Honestly, no matter how I look at it, it doesn't make sense to me. And the reason is rather simple: different writers in different seasons with different ideas and a seeming lack of desire to carry on the narrative that's been put in place before them.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And it apparently turned out perfectly swell!

Well

1. That comment was made before Aurene was an Elder Dragon, and able to manage the balance.
2. BMost of the magic flying off south and empowering Bubbles isn't "swell".

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So which is it then? Is it merely an overflow of magic, which Taimi accounted for and believed we could handle even without a replacement, and a mere container or reduction of that magic from the system be an inefficient solution (despite beint a very literal way of solving the issue)? Or The All's balance between 'pillars', which then apparently doesn't matter because Aurene somehow manages it all.

And if it is simply overflow of magic, then how is Aurene managing it, when she isn't keeping magic out of Tyria? Is she putting it off into the Mists? If so why was killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists a bad thing?

 

Honestly, no matter how I look at it, it doesn't make sense to me. And the reason is rather simple: different writers in different seasons with different ideas and a seeming lack of desire to carry on the narrative that's been put in place before them.

It makes perfect sense Konig.

Think of it this way. If you are trying to reach a state of zero, and you have a +1(Jormag), you need a -1(Primordus) to balance it out. Eliminating the +1(Jormag) creates an imbalance because there is nothing to counter the -1(Primordus). Now think of this system where there isn't just 1(Jormag) and -1(Primordus), but +A(Zhaitan), and -A(Mordremoth), and UP(Kralkatorrik), DOWN(Bubbles). Now lets say all six Elder Dragons are alive, but the UP factor(Kralkatorrik) get double his power to become UPUP. While his counterpart the DOWN factor(Bubbles) still exists, its power alone isn't able to counter the now doubly strong UP factor, creating an in balance until the DOWN factor can get enough power to become DOWNDOWN to counter the UPUP. If you have a +2, you need a -2 to reach zero.

Aurene is explicitly stated to be special because her prismatic nature lets her hold all the kinds of dragon magics in harmony. Unlike the other Elder Dragons who are limited to only one of the following, +1, -1, +A, -A, UP, or DOWN, Aurene is all states simultaneously. She is her own balancing force. The other Elder dragons can take the the raw powers of the others, but they aren't fundamentally becoming the others. The magics aren't merging, and sorting, in them correctly, they clash and conflict as we saw with Kralkatorrik.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well

1. That comment was made before Aurene was an Elder Dragon, and able to manage the balance.

We don't know that Aurene can manage the balance though. The closest we have to a proper suggestion of such is Kralkatorrik saying that she isn't tormented by small amounts of conflicting energies. But Tom Abernathy hinted pretty heavily that won't always be true in the very same release's guild chat.

Even Taimi questions whether or not Aurene can, except after the fact because doi.

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Think of it this way. If you are trying to reach a state of zero, and you have a +1(Jormag), you need a -1(Primordus) to balance it out. Eliminating the +1(Jormag) creates an imbalance because there is nothing to counter the -1(Primordus). Now think of this system where there isn't just 1(Jormag) and -1(Primordus), but +A(Zhaitan), and -A(Mordremoth), and UP(Kralkatorrik), DOWN(Bubbles).

There's two issues with this analogy.

First issue is that there's no confirmation that all Elder Dragons function in opposites. It's just a theory that is primarily based off of a singular encounter (Unstable Abomination) that has conflicting evidence (Mordremoth ate Zhaitan's magic to no notable ill effect).

Second issue stems from this, in that - to use another analogy, a table designed to have six legs isn't going to remain balanced if you take all but two legs that are on opposite sides.

And then of course you have the fact that none of this is accounting for magic quantities either, which is the general take for what "the issue of balance" is by players.

And then there's the horrible story writing where Aurene's "prismatic" nature comes out of left field in IBS, as she had no such thing in S4 or earlier, and the characters never consider the major question of "can Aurene handle it alone" until after passing the point of no return, didn't even consider it before forced to pass that point (e.g., during Bound by Blood).

So I'd say it doesn't make "perfect sense". It "makes sense under certain conditions which have contradicting evidence and even then still leaves the characters juggling the idiot ball and not explaining it properly to the players."

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

We don't know that Aurene can manage the balance though. The closest we have to a proper suggestion of such is Kralkatorrik saying that she isn't tormented by small amounts of conflicting energies. But Tom Abernathy hinted pretty heavily that won't always be true in the very same release's guild chat.

Even Taimi questions whether or not Aurene can, except after the fact because doi.

There's two issues with this analogy.

First issue is that there's no confirmation that all Elder Dragons function in opposites. It's just a theory that is primarily based off of a singular encounter (Unstable Abomination) that has conflicting evidence (Mordremoth ate Zhaitan's magic to no notable ill effect).

Second issue stems from this, in that - to use another analogy, a table designed to have six legs isn't going to remain balanced if you take all but two legs that are on opposite sides.

And then of course you have the fact that none of this is accounting for magic quantities either, which is the general take for what "the issue of balance" is by players.

And then there's the horrible story writing where Aurene's "prismatic" nature comes out of left field in IBS, as she had no such thing in S4 or earlier, and the characters never consider the major question of "can Aurene handle it alone" until after passing the point of no return, didn't even consider it before forced to pass that point (e.g., during Bound by Blood).

So I'd say it doesn't make "perfect sense". It "makes sense under certain conditions which have contradicting evidence and even then still leaves the characters juggling the idiot ball and not explaining it properly to the players."

Well no, a lot of no here in fact.

1. Aurene's prismatic nature didn't come out of left field in IBS. It was mentioned by Kralkatorrik at the end of LWS4 when he states she is unique, and the magics don't conflict inside her. That uniqueness was just given the name of "prismatic" in IBS.
2. Aurene wasn't forced to pass the point of handling it all by herself in Bound by Blood, so I'm not really sure what you are talking about there. The point of no return was Champions part 4, aka Dragonstorm, when Aurene was compelled to help kill Primordus and Jormag.
3. A massive plot point in Champions is Aurene's unwillingness to get directly involved in Jormag and Primordus' conflict because she believes the balance can still be maintained between Jormag and Primordus. So no, they did in fact consider it in Champions, and, in fact, mention it often.
4. Her being unable to do it or not was largely a non-factor by the time Dragonstorm rolled around anyways. Jormag and Primordus had both beefed their power up massively, were invading all across Tyria to beef themselves up even further. It was massively devastating to everyone, and with the way things were going Jormag was poised to beat Primordus, rendering it unstoppable. It was literally a situation where they had no choice to kill both dragons then, regardless of if Aurene could handle all the magic by herself, because everyone was going to die, guaranteed, if they didn't kill them right then.
5. The All is a meta-physical concept, not a physical object affected by gravity. The analogy of a table being balanced doesn't apply here. If you remove gravity it doesn't matter how many legs a table has, its never unbalanced because there is nothing to cause it to fall down, and no real concept of down to begin with.
6. Zhaitan and Mordremoth's magics conflicting/being opposite isn't the only example, its literally the whole plot between Primordus and Jormag. So that's 4 out of 6 confirmed.
7. Mordremoth never used Zhaitan's energy in real conjunction with his own on a large scale. We never see Mordrem, or Mordrem Guard, using Risen powers like we see Jormag and Primordus using Risen and Mordrem powers on their minions. The only instance of Mordremoth using Zhaitan's magic is a very low level copying of dead bodies to essentially reproduce Mordrem after they died. His lack of larger scale use of Zhaitan's magic compared to other Elder Dragons would indicate a larger incompatibility between the two, as confirmed by the unstable abomination.
8. Glint in LWS4, and Sadizi in PoF, explain the power quantity issue. The current Elder Dragons horde magic within themselves, when they go to sleep, it begins to seep out of their bodies over time. Once it reaches a low point they wake up, and begin eating it again. This creates a cycle of magic flow in Tyira. When they are dead there isn't a flow of magic, it just sits around, builds up, and causes issues. glint's children were meant to change this system by creating entities that share and cycle magic, rather then horde it, eliminating the extremes. Sadizi even point blank states that it was believed by Glint and the Forgotten that by doing this magic would reach a true stability. Aurene beings true stability to magic by sharing and cycling it, instead of just hoarding it like the other Elder Dragons do.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward

Quote

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.

Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.

Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.

Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.

Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.

Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.

Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_%26_Champion

Quote

Glint: Welcome, Scion and Champion. If you're here, the final confrontation with Kralkatorrik is imminent.

Glint: Hope can be powerful, but also dangerous. You must prove that you can strike as one.

Glint: A better world is waiting to be born.

Glint: My followers and I developed the resonance crystals that made possible the Dragonsblood Spear.

Glint: Creating the crystals, forging the Spear... These acts required the channeling of powerful magic.

Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.

Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.

Aurene: (roar)

Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.

Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.

Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...

Glint: Well done. When Elder Dragons gorge on magic with abandon, the world falls out of balance. We have no choice but to act.

Glint: To use power responsibly is to know when and how to share it—and when not to use it at all. Now continue to the next trial.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kayberz.5346]

Nothing is gonna make sense to you if you deliberately choose to be obtuse and deny the story being told is actually being told (despite the fact multiple people can point out where in the story all these plot points are discussed/hinted at and they have no problem following along with the narrative) and instead present your own subjective interpretations as pseudo-fact while conveniently dismissing other things that conflict with those interpretations that actually have a fair bit of evidence supporting them as "unconfirmed" every time they are brought up

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[The Greyhawk.9107]

3 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Nothing is gonna make sense if you deliberately choose to present your own subjective interpretations as pseudo-fact while conveniently dismissing other things that conflict with those interpretations that actually have a fair bit of evidence supporting them as "unconfirmed" eveey time they are brought up

Which one are you referring to?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I don't remember where, but its stated in IceBrood Saga that each dragon actually has multiple weaknesses, with the "one weakness" per dragon being a misnomer. So Mordremoth and Zhaitan being weak to each other (life vs. death), as well as having their own weaknesses--Modremoth's mind and Zhaitan's specialised minions--isn't far fetched.

 

The most common fan theory is that because each dragon has two domains, then presumably they also have two weaknesses, for the respective domains.

 

Its just that over time the "major, exploitable weakness" became more important because each dragon that dies empowers the others, though the corrupted magic also makes them even more unstable and unhinged. (Aurene heavily suggests this is why Jormag went mad at the very end, after using corrupted magic to create the Frozen). Modremoth was an order of a magintude above Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik was several orders of a magnitude above Modremoth due to having absorbed Balthazar and potions of Jormag and Primordus's energies as well.

 

This is why with each successive attack on the Elder Dragons we have less and less success.

 

Keep in mind the powers Jormag was experimenting with in LWS3 are different from the powers that Balthazar, Aurene, Jormag and Primordus eventually end up using. Initialy this energy is corrupted, and not in harmony with the other magics, but in the various processes each being went through (Balthazar using the machine, Aurene being born with the magic already present, Jormag and Primordus going to sleep and reawakening), this energy was intiially purified and as far as we know, not corrupted or tormented anymore, as none of them show any signs of it in PoF, LWS4 or IBS. Kralkatorrik, the only being to not go through any kind of purification process, is shown to be the only one impacted.

 

(This is also hinted at being the reason Primordus's "new" destroyers are stronger than the old, corrupted versions we encounter in Ember Bay--their purity, so to speak.)

 

Just before the last mission Dragonstorm where you talk to Aurene and then Gorirk, they do mention that if anything goes wrong it could just leave one dragon dead and the other living and super powerful, or even tip the balance of The All entirely. This is even brought up at least once before that, as an acceptible risk compared to just letting them kill everyone and destroy the world.

 

I don't have NPC chat logs but I've replayed the story enough times to have a recollection of it all. Some of its just conjecture but the story just isn't told in enough detail for anyone to fill in all the gaps no matter how hard they try. Somewhere along the way you have to apply some imagination.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Hannelore.8153