Current generally best WvW roaming/duelist build?

[fuzzyp.6295]

5 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

Okay thoughts on this:

Fire/air/weaver.

Middle,  middle, bottom for air. 

You lose some protection, but the weakness can help make up for it. You lose some healing from the dodges but you deal more damage with lightning rod. More offense in the form of vulnerability, damage (lightning rod), and fury uptime but less healing due to dodges not healing. You also have superspeed when attuning to air, which means you can potentially skip the speed runes and go for Flock or something that gives some hp to make up for that loss.  

 

Obviously doesn't work well against stability but Stab usually only lasts a few seconds anyway on roamers, if the have any at all 

What are the other skills you're running in fire and weaver? What gear? Weapons? utilities?

If you're aiming for a LR Build, Celestial is not the way to go for Sword. And you should probably drop Fire for Arcane. The issue you'll run into is that Air is pretty bad at condi cleanse and overall sustain. Arcane helps (regen and protection) and your attunements swap is set at 3 instead of 4 (it sounds like a minor thing, but you WILL notice it). Fire and Air are usually paired together in a hyper aggressive PvE or Zerg setting more than roaming since it has high dps potential but is pretty fragile, even with Celestial.

Are you set on a running a LR build? You can totally do that for sure, but you might want to reconsider your gear spread. You don't really need Speed runes if you're running Air because you already get a passive bonus when in Air plus Superspeed on Swap. NVM you knew that already. TBH I don't know what Rune of the Flock does, so I think its a safe bet to tell you not to run it. If I haven't considered it, its probably not a good choice. (apology if that sounds a bit full of myself, but I've spend hours pouring over many different runes lol)

EDIT: Its Vit and Healing Power?  You never get to use your 6 rune slot bonus because you don't ever want to actually use signet, assuming thats what you use. You'd probably be better off with Dura runes for the toughness, 10%HP and to try and make up the lack of concentration by not taking Arcane..

Edited February 3, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

4 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

What are the other skills you're running in fire and weaver? What gear? Weapons? utilities?

If you're aiming for a LR Build, Celestial is not the way to go for Sword. And you should probably drop Fire for Arcane. The issue you'll run into is that Air is pretty bad at condi cleanse and overall sustain. Arcane helps (regen and protection) and your attunements swap is set at 3 instead of 4 (it sounds like a minor thing, but you WILL notice it). Fire and Air are usually paired together in a hyper aggressive PvE or Zerg setting more than roaming since it has high dps potential but is pretty fragile, even with Celestial.

Are you set on a running a LR build? You can totally do that for sure, but you might want to reconsider your gear spread. You don't really need Speed runes if you're running Air because you already get a passive bonus when in Air plus Superspeed on Swap. NVM you knew that already. TBH I don't know what Rune of the Flock does, so I think its a safe bet to tell you not to run it. If I haven't considered it, its probably not a good choice. (apology if that sounds a bit full of myself, but I've spend hours pouring over many different runes lol)

EDIT: Its Vit and Healing Power?  You never get to use your 6 rune slot bonus because you don't ever want to actually use signet, assuming thats what you use. You'd probably be better off with Dura runes for the toughness, 10%HP and to try and make up the lack of concentration by not taking Arcane..

 

I was talking about replacing arcane with air in the starfire build. Maybe adjust some skills to better suit but so the similar idea... so sw/f obviously. 

And the 6th slot does proc from passive signet use in pretty sure. I was taking with solemn about that rune a couple months ago. 

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 hour ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

I was talking about replacing arcane with air in the starfire build. Maybe adjust some skills to better suit but so the similar idea... so sw/f obviously. 

Oh okay, sorry I misunderstood. Makes sense. Most of the builds that run Air/Fire are hyper aggressive and don't usually work for roaming because you're basically losing any heals. Yes, Barrier exists, but atleast on Arcane you have protection to reduce incoming damage and regen to help keep your health up. You have a nice heal with Riptide -> Vortex but you will notice that you are squishier without those two boons.

If you're interestd in using LR, I can share a few fun builds with you that are really fun. Air is a great 1v1 spec, although roaming its harder to pull off out numbered fights with it.

 

1 hour ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

And the 6th slot does proc from passive signet use in pretty sure. I was taking with solemn about that rune a couple months ago. 

If that is the case then its most likely a glitch... all the other 'on healing skill' runes only activate on the active ability, not passive (unless this has changed recently and I completely missed the patch notes. Please correct me if this is the case as I literally have no idea about Flock Runes).

Even so, Healing Power scales pretty horrendously. I think across all your barrier skills you'll add maybe a totally of 300 extra barrier (not on each individual barrier, im talking in total). Cele Fire Weaver already has fantastic healing and high HP even if you don't take Speed Runes (~19K w/o, ~21k with speed, ~24k with Flock).

It seems like the biggest benefit you get out of Flock Runes is just fat HP regardless of what the 6th rune ability is. I'm just wondering if that will offset the loss of protection, regen, longer attunement swap. You do have LR.

EDIT: Looking at the stats, it looks like it could be potentially interesting. My experience with running Fire/Air/X builds  are mixed and usually negative, but its possible that even if you're taking a lot of damage your fat HP and heals plus barrier could help. That 3k HP can really help against other Celestial builds out there, although against other burst builds 3k is kinda just another drip in the bucket...

Range will still likely be an issue since even though you have Super Speed you should still be rotating into Fire frequently and without speed runes you wouldnt be able to stick them.And unlike scepter builds that use Super Speed for distance, you're using it to close gaps..

It's a shame I'm in school right now and have a terrible laptop that can barely PvE atm. I'd personally like to try this build just to see. If you do try this build let me know how it goes. I don't think it will be better that the traditional Fire Weaver but it at least looks interesting.

Edited February 3, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[Sahne.6950]

6 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

And the 6th slot does proc from passive signet use in pretty sure. I was taking with solemn about that rune a couple months ago.

I am pretty sure it doesnt work like that! ALL of the runes would have to work like that.... and if that would be the case we would see Rune of fighter on Ele alot... which we dont^^ (i think it is rune of fighter.... gives a shitton of raw stats and might on healingskill) Rune of brawler?!!? something like that.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[The Boz.2038]

"After using a heal skill" runes only ever trigger on actually using the skill. They only ever trigger on the specific heal skill, not any other skill that heals. So that is the heal skill slot, and it needs to be used to trigger it. The only exception that I know of is Engineer's Med Kit, that triggers off the toolbelt skill use, Bandage Self, not entering, exiting, or using skills in Med Kit.

So no, passive signet procs, water elemental heals, blasting water fields, none of that trigger the 6th rune bonus.

EDIT: Also, Brawler gives power, toughness, and 5 might for 10 seconds on heal skill use. It is called Brawler in PvE/WvW and Fither in PvP because reasons or something.

Edited February 3, 2022 by The Boz.2038

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Also, Brawler gives power, toughness, and 5 might for 10 seconds on heal skill use. It is called Brawler in PvE/WvW and Fither in PvP because reasons or something.

yes thats the one i am looking for! the total number of stats it gives is pretty high when youcan maintain the 5 stacks from healing -> which you could if it would procc on signet..... But it doesnt.

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

yes thats the one i am looking for! the total number of stats it gives is pretty high when youcan maintain the 5 stacks from healing -> which you could if it would procc on signet..... But it doesnt.

...it also has a 10s cooldown, too.

[Sahne.6950]

you could maintain more than 5 stacks at once thanks to boonduration+.

if it would trigger from sigil aka every 10 seconds it would be alot of free stats. =)

[Mik.3401]

I think the only truly 100% reliable roamer build is the cele fire weaver. I you are up for some major sweat you can go with FA or lighting rod but these are tricky if outnumbered.

So yeah farting condis and spamming barrier is the way to go unfortunately. You can literally face tank 3-4 people and still safely disengage if needed. It can be fun but not my cup of tea, I prefer the power-oriented options.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Bizgurk.5639]

On 1/30/2022 at 3:19 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The build's biggest weakness is that it's lacking in mobility and range.  Speed runes can help you to catch up with opponents more easily.  The advantage of anti-toxin runes is that they add an additional cleanse each time you cleanse a condition.  This is great for fire weaver specifically because they can trait to cleanse upon aura application and they can produce auras frequently.  Part of the problem with conditions is that they can slow you down, so being able to rapidly cleanse them as they come in will increase your ability to stay on opponents and pressure them.

I’m thinking about building one myself and give it a try, but would like to hear your opinion about it. I’ve faced several celestial Fire Weaver during the past months and in my opinion it rather feels like a mediocre bunker build to me than an actual roaming build. Most of them seem to struggle against Deadeye and some condition or celestial Mirage builds as well. Even as a condition Weaver I managed to bring some celestial Weaver down since I seem to do more damage than them over the course of a few minutes, given that they don’t run Antitoxin Runes. With everything else, however, I’m the one who struggles. With my Holo as example I have to retreat after less than half a minute already.

But no matter what I played during those encounters, I’ve never been brought down by a celestial Fire Weaver. I either downed him, made him retreat or retreated myself. I do understand that Fire Weaver is strong in a PvP scenario, where the goal is to capture and hold a point and where it even might be a disadvantage to kill the opponent. But in WvW where most enemies immediately start to run to the next tower or keep as soon they are engaged? Does he really have the tools to actually chase other roaming builds and bring something down?

Celestial gear is rather expensive and time consuming to craft, so I appreciate your opinion here. Thanks in advance.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Bizgurk.5639 said:

I’m thinking about building one myself and give it a try, but would like to hear your opinion about it. I’ve faced several celestial Fire Weaver during the past months and in my opinion it rather feels like a mediocre bunker build to me than an actual roaming build. Most of them seem to struggle against Deadeye and some condition or celestial Mirage builds as well. Even as a condition Weaver I managed to bring some celestial Weaver down since I seem to do more damage than them over the course of a few minutes, given that they don’t run Antitoxin Runes. With everything else, however, I’m the one who struggles. With my Holo as example I have to retreat after less than half a minute already.

 

But no matter what I played during those encounters, I’ve never been brought down by a celestial Fire Weaver. I either downed him, made him retreat or retreated myself. I do understand that Fire Weaver is strong in a PvP scenario, where the goal is to capture and hold a point and where it even might be a disadvantage to kill the opponent. But in WvW where most enemies immediately start to run to the next tower or keep as soon they are engaged? Does he really have the tools to actually chase other roaming builds and bring something down?

 

Celestial gear is rather expensive and time consuming to craft, so I appreciate your opinion here. Thanks in advance.

 

Your impressions are correct.  The main damage skills on sword are clearly designed for PvE (require a stationary target) and they've given weaver nothing to mitigate that weakness.  Even our setups require setups (i.e. weave self, gale strike).  So you pretty much know when facing a weaver that even if you're outmatched all you have to do is avoid the wombo combo off of gale and keep your distance.  And of course that's pretty easy to do in open field, as opposed to being forced to fight them over a tiny circle as you do in PvP.

Builds like deadeye especially are problematic because there is just no way a sword weaver can catch a deadeye.  It's hard to apply any pressure to them at all and they can pressure freely in return.  This as opposed to something like the typical power soulbeast roamer, which really struggles to pressure from range and can easily be pressured in return if they don't stay at range.

Celestial is not going to solve any of those problems for you.  However, in my experience it is still the better option for this type of build because it has better sustain than something like trailblazer generally and it deals a significant portion of its damage from power.  This allows it to surprise opponents (especially with a good might stack!) and pressure more effectively within the tiny windows weaver is generally forced to use to deal damage.  But ultimately, it's still sword weaver and the basic problem is the same: It's designed to deal damage to stationary targets at melee range.  Good luck with that!

[fuzzyp.6295]

7 hours ago, Bizgurk.5639 said:

I’m thinking about building one myself and give it a try, but would like to hear your opinion about it. I’ve faced several celestial Fire Weaver during the past months and in my opinion it rather feels like a mediocre bunker build to me than an actual roaming build. Most of them seem to struggle against Deadeye and some condition or celestial Mirage builds as well. Even as a condition Weaver I managed to bring some celestial Weaver down since I seem to do more damage than them over the course of a few minutes, given that they don’t run Antitoxin Runes. With everything else, however, I’m the one who struggles. With my Holo as example I have to retreat after less than half a minute already.

 

But no matter what I played during those encounters, I’ve never been brought down by a celestial Fire Weaver. I either downed him, made him retreat or retreated myself. I do understand that Fire Weaver is strong in a PvP scenario, where the goal is to capture and hold a point and where it even might be a disadvantage to kill the opponent. But in WvW where most enemies immediately start to run to the next tower or keep as soon they are engaged? Does he really have the tools to actually chase other roaming builds and bring something down?

 

Celestial gear is rather expensive and time consuming to craft, so I appreciate your opinion here. Thanks in advance.

 

For the record, Celestial Elementalists have historically (basically after the heavy nerfs to Ele in 2015) struggled against other sustain focused builds. What makes Cele Ele so great is its ability to last long against other builds that give up their sustain for damage as our trade off is not as extreme since Elementalist can do "Everything". Fighting Cele Necros, Scrappers or Mirages is a pain and nowadays the Cele Stat is much more common in the roaming scene. The classes that tend to run more power oriented builds also tend to have much higher mobility, making it hard for Sword Weaver in general (cele or otherwise) to keep up.

Truthfully, Celestisal Weaver is basically just a Condition Weaver with a bit more sustain instead of toughness. Most of those fights will come down to which Ele messes up first, not so much the gear spread. Or it just never ends. Its why I avoid Ele v Ele fights personally lol. Keep in mind, there are a lot of bad Weavers out there that think they really are an immortal bruiser class just because they have good heals and some minor barrier. I think the perceived ease of the class vs the actual difficulty curve is what leads to that issue (although not like Cele Weaver is a hard class to learn anyway lol).

That said, on your question to craft it or not:

Celestial Gear has historically been one of the strongest Stats for Elementalist since it was introduced though. If you're on the fence about crafting it, I would highly recommend it. Even if Cele Weaver falls out of play, Celestial has never not been part of the Elementalist's kit. And Cele Catalyst is shaping up to be basically OP with all the stat boosting traits so I would say even if you don't want to run Cele Weaver, you should consider working towards making the gear. Just as a long term, side goal at best 🙂

Edited February 6, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295