Staff and Scepter not getting buffed condition damage to compensate for the loss of clones on Virtuoso is such a BIG oversight and flaw

[Hallow.7368]

10 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Thematically, if a bit of sharpened bone with a handle can create a psychic blade that projects as far as a rifle can shoot then a staff, some of which have blades every bit as large as many daggers in game, could too. Some staves are represented as spears. Spears are essentially daggers at the end of sticks. The only reason this doesn't work or make sense thematically is if one chooses to arbitrarily refuse to allow it to make sense.

How is it arbitrary for "winds of chaos" "phase retreat" "phantasmal warlock" "chaos armor" "chaos storm" "ether bolt" "illusionary counter" and "confusing images" to have literally nothing to do with a blade? If we go along with your thought process behind this why aren't we just bringing all mesmers to raids and fractals so that we can portal dhuum and co. to mars to die of asphyxiation and we don't have to risk fighting him? 

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

That's fair on the dagger part. Two things I'm interested in though.. if you need to disengage as you put it why does your ability to contest/capture a node matter when your goal is to back out of the fight? Secondly why does the dps of your backbar matter when it's exclusively for defensive situations? Should there not be an opportunity cost when you need to play defensively? If you're having problems staying alive I can't imagine having stealth access would ever be a negative aspect. The most popular thief builds center on their stealth which in turn makes them way more durable than a thief should ever be allowed to be and just by running that one elite you can get up to 9 seconds (with PU if you're using chaos) from one skill. Like what are you losing out on by making this change? Thousand cuts on a condi build? Signet?

Being able to disengage to reposition yourself is something that virtuoso lacks. When bladesongs are being cast moving behind the Virtuoso will completely stop the cast and put it on a involuntary 3 sec cd. Not to mention mass invis is a cast skill on top of the many cast bladesongs that can be easily interrupted. Unlike DE where they are able to leap backwards to get back in range for repositioning Virtuoso lacks this, paired with DE's hits are instant with faster projectiles where Virtuoso does not.

This problem is even worse in WvW again like you said you have no real experience with competitive game mode.

[Alpha.1308]

On 3/10/2022 at 10:35 AM, Hallow.7368 said:

It's likely a design decision and just because you think so does not mean it's a bade one.

 

 

again this just makes 0 sense

the design decision of being bad is what i'm pointing out

not the blades themselves 

i don't care if they were blades or not

just don't be useless "blades" in basically name only 

they do literally nothing special, aside from being projectiles that can be A/D strafed in pvp 

they can still be blades, but they can also be useful, as well, which they just simply aren't

 

the overall mechanics offer absolutely nothing base mesmer didn't already have, and fills no slots in any of the 4 game modes we can even play in, wvw, spvp, pve raid, and open world pve 

aside from maybe higher damage in pve raids????? which???? that could have been numerical tweaks to core mesmer and not wasted on an entire espec 

 

On 3/10/2022 at 10:35 AM, Hallow.7368 said:

Virt ADDS to GS because that is how it's meant to be played.

so i am confusion

what are you referencing?

the single trait that makes ALL phantasms finish with an added blade? that you then have to be forced into also picking up Domination to also get the double GS phantasms?

because, no,  that's certainly not "GS focused", you could even do that on staff if staff had any more power damage numbers pumped into it, so that logic is completely flawed and again furthers the idea that they could just tweak pve numbers to have the exact same effect on raid pve dps benchmarks 

and, technically, to a lesser extent, pistol, with recharging pistol phantasms, if you played it right, it probably could end up with even more damage, if someone wanted to actually calculate an interrupt every 3 seconds over the course of GS's phantasm cooldown..... soooooooooo??????? where exactly is the entire e-specs GS focus coming from again? and why do you think the entire espec was meant to be played with GS over anything else? other than poorly designed mechanics that don't revolve around anything in particular except, uh, a single trait for pve raid numbers?

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Alpha.1308

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see a problem if Staff and Scepter aren't at the same level of performance on Virtuoso as they are outside it. Why is it even an expectation they would? I mean, there are LOTS of choices that affect the performance levels of all kinds of weapons on every class in this game; why is choosing Virtuoso impacting Staff/Scepter any different than any of those?

[Salt Mode.3780]

Oh yikes....someone is bored....it was nice while it lasted tho....it was bound to return.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Hallow.7368]

14 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

 

again this just makes 0 sense

the design decision of being bad is what i'm pointing out

not the blades themselves 

i don't care if they were blades or not

just don't be useless "blades" in basically name only 

they do literally nothing special, aside from being projectiles that can be A/D strafed in pvp 

they can still be blades, but they can also be useful, as well, which they just simply aren't

 

the overall mechanics offer absolutely nothing base mesmer didn't already have, and fills no slots in any of the 4 game modes we can even play in, wvw, spvp, pve raid, and open world pve 

aside from maybe higher damage in pve raids????? which???? that could have been numerical tweaks to core mesmer and not wasted on an entire espec 

 

so i am confusion

what are you referencing?

the single trait that makes ALL phantasms finish with an added blade? that you then have to be forced into also picking up Domination to also get the double GS phantasms?

because, no,  that's certainly not "GS focused", you could even do that on staff if staff had any more power damage numbers pumped into it, so that logic is completely flawed and again furthers the idea that they could just tweak pve numbers to have the exact same effect on raid pve dps benchmarks 

and, technically, to a lesser extent, pistol, with recharging pistol phantasms, if you played it right, it probably could end up with even more damage, if someone wanted to actually calculate an interrupt every 3 seconds over the course of GS's phantasm cooldown..... soooooooooo??????? where exactly is the entire e-specs GS focus coming from again? and why do you think the entire espec was meant to be played with GS over anything else? other than poorly designed mechanics that don't revolve around anything in particular except, uh, a single trait for pve raid numbers?

 

Blades, you know.. the modifier on dagger abilities and GS 2 3 and 4? The modifier that makes the abilities directly interact with half your traits (applying vuln and if traited bleeds on crits). It's what allows dagger to be both simultaneously a condi and power weapon. I will admit on spec being binary, but it is not bad design because you don't like it or because your build doesn't work on it. Mirage and chrono still exist if virt isn't to your liking.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Hallow.7368
Was tired. Meant 2 3 and 4 not 3 4 and 5.

[mortrialus.3062]

15 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Now, I repeat myself, just because Staff and Scepter are the default core condi weapons doesn't mean they should be great with Virtuoso as well. 

Doesn't mean they should be functionally nerfed on the spec. 

Deadeye on thief doesn't reduce melee weapons by 50%.

Reaper on necro doesn't nerf your condi weapons by 50%

Scourge doesn't nerf your power weapons by 60%

The reason Virtuoso is nerfing it's core condition weapons isn't a grand design philosophy by Anet.  It's because they didn't think about the implications of removing clones very thoroughly.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Doesn't mean they should be functionally nerfed on the spec. 

Deadeye on thief doesn't reduce melee weapons by 50%.

Reaper on necro doesn't nerf your condi weapons by 50%

Scourge doesn't nerf your power weapons by 60%

The reason Virtuoso is nerfing it's core condition weapons isn't a grand design philosophy by Anet.  It's because they didn't think about the implications of removing clones very thoroughly.

Someone's gonna say blah blah anet's vision blah blah stop trying to force what you think will work blah blah...fact is that person also don't know that many of the original staff quit and there had been new people not knowing what that "vision" is, it most certainly not the base gw2 game vision was or else WvW wouldn't be left out~

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

The reason Virtuoso is nerfing it's core condition weapons isn't a grand design philosophy by Anet.  It's because they didn't think about the implications of removing clones very thoroughly.

I don't think that's true. It's obvious that Anet made a conscious design decision to make SOME clone spawning effects trigger with blades and some not. That's like due to the frequency blades can be spawned. I think people should go back, look at what triggers with blades and what doesn't and ask themselves why Anet has done this instead of pretending it wasn't something NOT decision-based. 

If you want to change some of those triggers, then you have to address the possible reasons why they don't.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Alpha.1308]

13 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

and GS 3 4 and 5

OH

that's actually funny

i never noticed it

because of how useless it is

i'll give you that, i never even realized that it's stated on the GS, without, ya know, being stated in the spec itself

 

but it's also skill 2, 3, and 4

not 3, 4, and 5 like you say......

 

either way

it's still not a good enough excuse on its own for the spec to exist

so, you said, what, vuln and bleed?

wow, cool, 3 skills, and actually only two, BECAUSE AHAHAH I JUST LOGGED ON TO TEST THIS and skill 4 does not interact with this at all, not the phantasm, not the actual BLADE you shoot out from skill 4, sooooooOOOOO actually only 2

 

and even if it were 3, ignoring that bug/oversight, it's only one single stack of vuln and maybe one single stack of bleed

mirror blade giving 3 stacks of vuln/bleed MAYBE on crits 

wow impressive and worth a whole traitline?????????

 

especially arguing for bleed????? considering it.... isn't worth..... using condi on virt......... 

which again falls back onto staff and scepter argument 

 

and..... uhm..........

mirage........ ambush........??????????

why the butts would i choose virt to get vuln over mirage GS ambush that applies 25 instantly?

and?????? AGAIN again, like again again again again because????? mirage ambush comes with clones that can ambush and apply bleed from Sharper Images??????? it'd get more bleeding from clones using GS ambush ahahaha

literally everything you're trying to tout as good for this spec, again, already exists, but better, please stop trying because you're making your own arguments even worse the further you go trying to defend this trashy, uninspired spec

  

13 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

it is not bad design because you don't like it or because your build doesn't work on it.

 

also stop with these fake mental gymnastics you're trying to make trying to turn this into being just my opinion

i'm giving you real, gameplay examples, not "my build" or "my liking"

yea, it's true i don't like the over the top blaringly visually loud visuals from this spec, or that it's nothing more than a glorified dps at its heart

but i'm also giving you facts and logic for the real game as to why it's actually bad 

it physically doesn't work and i already explained that in my last post that it had nothing to do with personal ideas that made you still turn it into poorly made argument for the second time for whatever reason

the concept is LITERALLY bad, especially ESPECIALLY for pvp

pve it's designed to be nothing more than a glorified dps, which again, we already could do, so it just doesn't make sense for it to be designed that way, but fine, i'll accept that part

but in pvp, the mechanics are flawed from the ground up when fighting real people who don't just stand in one place and don't use strategies 

there's 100% many different ways to make everything currently already in this spec work across the board with adjustments 

but they need to aggressively split pve/pvp balance in that case, and they just refuse to that

  

13 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

why is choosing Virtuoso impacting Staff/Scepter any different than any of those?

people have already elaborated on this excessively 

weapons are designed around core mesmer in terms of condi damage

core mesmer is designed around clone strengths in terms of condi, there are no condi builds that could work without clones, as it's a massive part of your damage

blades do not have any output while they're sitting on your shoulder

if you wanna talk about every other spec and why it's different, it would be like completely ripping damage or condi numbers in half of other specs, and say "here you go, find a build for this now", while giving you a traitline that does not in any way shape or form give you any form of compensation for the removal of those numbers 

nothing else in this game relies on that much that is SPECIFICALLY REMOVED that virtuoso removes with the removal of clones

that's what makes this different than other specs not having special advantages 

because they aren't getting REDUCTIONS at the same time

 

  

34 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's like due to the frequency blades can be spawned. I think people should go back, look at what triggers with blades and what doesn't and ask themselves why Anet has done this instead of pretending it wasn't something NOT decision-based. 

 

you can't look at blades as clones, period

it's just not the same 

drop a staff clone, watch it deal damage

then, go to virt, keep dropping clones, and use shatters

look at the outputs

it's insanely different

now you're talking 2-3 clones, making it even more crazy, but you can't get 2-3 burst windows back to back from virt, even with double F1 trait

and even then that's a moot point because it's F2 that will deal more condis which is what you want where it matters, which doesn't get double trait 

and it's condis that are affected by staff/scepter, so this drops in effectiveness even further 

virt is burst oriented, but it lacks a burst

the spec should just drop some of its "wannabe burst" and add more sustain, and then it wouldn't matter if the blades don't do much

because, yes, blade generation could offer more in the long run

but as it stands now, there's a huge difference and to the point of it not even mattering in any of the game modes that even exist 

save for maybe pve raids that..... already could have been alleviated if numbers were tweaked there for existing specs

Edited March 12, 2022 by Alpha.1308

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Alpha.1308 said:

 

you can't look at blades as clones, period

it's just not the same 

 

That's right you can't ... that's why it's weird that Staff/Scepter would be expected to work on Virtuoso the same way they do on core. Anet disabled some clone triggering effects when using Virtuoso exactly because we can't look at blades as clones. They work differently and because of those differences, it doesn't make sense anyone would argue weapons shouldn't change with those differences either. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Hallow.7368]

53 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

OH

that's actually funny

i never noticed it

because of how useless it is

i'll give you that, i never even realized that it's stated on the GS, without, ya know, being stated in the spec itself

 

but it's also skill 2, 3, and 4

not 3, 4, and 5 like you say......

 

either way

it's still not a good enough excuse on its own for the spec to exist

so, you said, what, vuln and bleed?

wow, cool, 3 skills, and actually only two, BECAUSE AHAHAH I JUST LOGGED ON TO TEST THIS and skill 4 does not interact with this at all, not the phantasm, not the actual BLADE you shoot out from skill 4, sooooooOOOOO actually only 2

 

and even if it were 3, ignoring that bug/oversight, it's only one single stack of vuln and maybe one single stack of bleed

mirror blade giving 3 stacks of vuln/bleed MAYBE on crits 

wow impressive and worth a whole traitline?????????

 

especially arguing for bleed????? considering it.... isn't worth..... using condi on virt......... 

which again falls back onto staff and scepter argument 

 

and..... uhm..........

mirage........ ambush........??????????

why the butts would i choose virt to get vuln over mirage GS ambush that applies 25 instantly?

and?????? AGAIN again, like again again again again because????? mirage ambush comes with clones that can ambush and apply bleed from Sharper Images??????? it'd get more bleeding from clones using GS ambush ahahaha

literally everything you're trying to tout as good for this spec, again, already exists, but better, please stop trying because you're making your own arguments even worse the further you go trying to defend this trashy, uninspired spec

  

 

also stop with these fake mental gymnastics you're trying to make trying to turn this into being just my opinion

i'm giving you real, gameplay examples, not "my build" or "my liking"

yea, it's true i don't like the over the top blaringly visually loud visuals from this spec, or that it's nothing more than a glorified dps at its heart

but i'm also giving you facts and logic for the real game as to why it's actually bad 

it physically doesn't work and i already explained that in my last post that it had nothing to do with personal ideas that made you still turn it into poorly made argument for the second time for whatever reason

the concept is LITERALLY bad, especially ESPECIALLY for pvp

pve it's designed to be nothing more than a glorified dps, which again, we already could do, so it just doesn't make sense for it to be designed that way, but fine, i'll accept that part

but in pvp, the mechanics are flawed from the ground up when fighting real people who don't just stand in one place and don't use strategies 

there's 100% many different ways to make everything currently already in this spec work across the board with adjustments 

but they need to aggressively split pve/pvp balance in that case, and they just refuse to that

  

people have already elaborated on this excessively 

weapons are designed around core mesmer in terms of condi damage

core mesmer is designed around clone strengths in terms of condi, there are no condi builds that could work without clones, as it's a massive part of your damage

blades do not have any output while they're sitting on your shoulder

if you wanna talk about every other spec and why it's different, it would be like completely ripping damage or condi numbers in half of other specs, and say "here you go, find a build for this now", while giving you a traitline that does not in any way shape or form give you any form of compensation for the removal of those numbers 

nothing else in this game relies on that much that is SPECIFICALLY REMOVED that virtuoso removes with the removal of clones

that's what makes this different than other specs not having special advantages 

because they aren't getting REDUCTIONS at the same time

 

  

 

you can't look at blades as clones, period

it's just not the same 

drop a staff clone, watch it deal damage

then, go to virt, keep dropping clones, and use shatters

look at the outputs

it's insanely different

now you're talking 2-3 clones, making it even more crazy, but you can't get 2-3 burst windows back to back from virt, even with double F1 trait

and even then that's a moot point because it's F2 that will deal more condis which is what you want where it matters, which doesn't get double trait 

and it's condis that are affected by staff/scepter, so this drops in effectiveness even further 

virt is burst oriented, but it lacks a burst

the spec should just drop some of its "wannabe burst" and add more sustain, and then it wouldn't matter if the blades don't do much

because, yes, blade generation could offer more in the long run

but as it stands now, there's a huge difference and to the point of it not even mattering in any of the game modes that even exist 

save for maybe pve raids that..... already could have been alleviated if numbers were tweaked there for existing specs

Wow haha I was tired and pressed 3 4 and 5 instead of 2 3 and 4! Wow crazy haha! Better put me in a mental asylum! Haha! Let's stop pretending like this is fact and not just you and some other people opinion though. For the millionth time class was not designed just for you and you do not have to like! 🙂 Do you honestly think anyone cares what espec you decide to play? Not a single living person cares if you don't play virt and play mirage instead or hell even if you swap classes. No one! Those blade traits also apply to every dagger auto, 2 and 3. As well as every tick of rain of swords, thousand cuts etc etc. The espec is not poorly designed you simply just do not like it and want to force that opinion on everyone else! They CLEARLY intended for blades to be the core mechanic for condi virt as it let's dagger and all of the psionic skills to double as condi skills! I don't know how much more blatantly in your face it needs to be that they probably didn't intend for you to use core condi weapons because every other condi Mesmer build is practically identical to each other and they wanted virt to be something different! So suck it up and stop crying about it! For every one of you in this echo chamber subforum who hate it there plenty of other people who do like it or at least admit that while it may not be to their taste that it is fine and that there are other people in this game who play mesmer besides them! The only things it really needs are QoL changes to the shatters such as no cast times, not having to be looking at your target and maybe some cool down reductions for the shatters on sharpening sorrow because condi virt generates way more blades than they could ever use and sharpening sorrow sucks anyways because the damage on phantasmal blade vastly out performs 150 expertise especially since focus and offhand sword are out performing torch and pistol on condi virt since their phantasms have lower cooldowns and apply a lot of bleed stacks!

[Alpha.1308]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's right you can't ... that's why it's weird that Staff/Scepter would be expected to work on Virtuoso the same way they do on core.

uh, no

they can't be looked at as the same

> read that i mentioned "these weapons were designed around core mesmer"

as in 

c.l.o.n.e.s.

meaning, yes, it makes perfect sense to have these get a different benefit for virt

 

5 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Wow haha I was tired and pressed 3 4 and 5 instead of 2 3 and 4! Wow crazy haha! Better put me in a mental asylum!

the mental gymnastics taken to go through loops and hurdles to be offended over a single correction, all because i was finding this information out for the first time, for myself, in real-time, while typing up the comment

 

5 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Let's stop pretending like this is fact and not just you and some other people opinion though. For the millionth time class was not designed just for you and you do not have to like!

me liking something

and actual balance

where something is actually worth using

is different

i've already explained i don't like the visuals, or the core concept of blades, and stated that's an opinion

however, i've also explained, in detail, the mechanics that don't function well enough for this game, as a fact

there's no point in this game that there's any benefit to choosing virtuoso over other options 

that has nothing to do with how i "like" something 

that's not an "opinion" 

you are physically less efficient picking this line, that chunks off a huge portion of effectiveness that core mesmer was designed around

it has less control

less support

and i guess it has more damage in high end pve raids, so congrats for that 

 

5 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

The espec is not poorly designed you simply just do not like it and want to force that opinion on everyone else!

again

the

mental

gymnastics

taken

to ignore game balance

just to whine that it's my "opinion" that it's underperforming 

whatever you have to tell yourself to enjoy it, but people are getting laughed at in pvp for it, and mesmers were already a strong pick for pve raids to begin with

the only "opinion" about the balance around this is my "opinion" that mesmer definitely did not need an entire new e-spec, after years of being trashed on, just for it to be nothing more than "another high dps raid spec" and nothing more 

sure, that's an opinion

but that "opinion" doesn't change the fact that it could have ALSO been useful elsewhere, while ALSO retaining its high raid dps 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Alpha.1308

[Obtena.7952]

49 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

uh, no

they can't be looked at as the same

> read that i mentioned "these weapons were designed around core mesmer"

as in 

c.l.o.n.e.s.

meaning, yes, it makes perfect sense to have these get a different benefit for virt

I don't get your point ... I AGREE they can't be looked at the same. That's why they don't ACT the same way in Virtuoso as they do outside it. That's why it's WEIRD for anyone to expect they should somehow be made equivalent in performance in and out of Virtuoso.

I mean, if you want to say Staff and Scepter should get a different benefit in Virtuoso, I don't see a reason why that needs to happen other than people want it. I doubt that's ever been a compelling reason for Anet to change things based on their reasons given in the patch notes. Again, if it's a problem, there is very little explanation WHY that's a problem. 

See, here is my barrier; Anet already went through some kind of exercise where they decided some clone generating things trigger on blades ... and some don't. So if people want to make a case for changing one of those triggers so it does work with blades, then they need to explain why based on how the game works, or doesn't. 

The fact that condi weapons don't work well on specs that are bad at supporting condi damage isn't even a problem; it happens all the time. The problem I see is that Anet wasted three traits trying to give Virtuoso a condi option ... except the option is complete crap. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obliviscaris.6937]

I get suspended for two days for being correct, come back, and we're still nowhere. I love this energy for us. 🎪🤹🤹‍♀️🤹‍♂️

[mortrialus.3062]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's right you can't ... that's why it's weird that Staff/Scepter would be expected to work on Virtuoso the same way they do on core. Anet disabled some clone triggering effects when using Virtuoso exactly because we can't look at blades as clones. They work differently and because of those differences, it doesn't make sense anyone would argue weapons shouldn't change with those differences either. 

This isn't about staff and scepter "working differently".  It's about them no longer properly functioning at all. Their damage output is designed and balanced around having clones up to supplement your damage with their auto attacks.  Without them they both become the lowest damage weapons in the game, lower damage weapons than Druid and Guardian Staff and mace and that's just a mathematical fact.

The Soulbeast player gaining their pet effects when merged instead of the pet gaining them is "working differently".

What we're seeing is if all the weapon skills, utilities and traits that gave bonuses to pets just did nothing on Soulbeast.

Soulbeast was extraordinarily well thought out to the point that two years into the expansion people were still discovering insane combos with pets and traits like boonbeast with Siamoth in PvP.

Virtuoso was just not well thought out anywhere near the degree the amount of work Anet put into Soulbeast and other specs.

It's also a double slap in the face because while many players were baffled by virtuoso having a dedicated row of traits just for condi, the few things that saw buffs on virtuoso by anet was the condi traits and F2.

So Anet is doubling down on Condi Virtuoso, but they've also left the core weapons fundamentally unviable on the spec.  Meaning even if they finally buff condi virtuoso into something good, unless they actually fix scepter and staff it'd still always a build with literally no choices or build craft.  It's dagger and dagger only, and you'll always go the bottom row of traits.

You're playing devil's advocate and it's tiresome and transparent. 

"It's good and smart actually that Virtuoso artificially and very uniquely nerfed core weapons in a way literally no other elite spec had done to it's core profession weapons." Get out of here with that kitten.

Edited March 13, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

This isn't about staff and scepter "working differently".  It's about them no longer properly functioning at all. 

Well, this is the problem I see with this suggestion. Virtuoso generates condi in its spec with blade attacks. What is the 'fix' on Scepter/Staff that will make these perform on Virtuoso with its condi traits reliant on blade attacks and bleeds? I don't see it. The problem isn't the weapons, it's the trait design. 

I mean, Anet COULD make a whole bunch of attacks on these weapons 'blades'  to work with the condi traits, but that seems really unlikely. I saw your suggestion to increase (condi?) duration. That doesn't really fix the problem with the weapon skills that generate clones on these weapons. The traits are still completely dysfunctional with these weapons.

Any reasonably performing Condi Virt build is going to use Dagger/Pistol because that's where you might get enough bleeds for the whole thing to work.

I agree that if Sharper Images doesn't work with Virt ... should probably be addressed if Anet is SERIOUS about anyone considering a Condi Virt but I don't see a fix for the weapons here. 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[mortrialus.3062]

51 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, this is the problem I see with this suggestion. Virtuoso generates condi in its spec with blade attacks. What is the 'fix' on Scepter/Staff that will make these perform on Virtuoso with its condi traits reliant on blade attacks and bleeds? I don't see it. The problem isn't the weapons, it's the trait design. 

I mean, Anet COULD make a whole bunch of attacks on these weapons 'blades'  to work with the condi traits, but that seems really unlikely. I saw your suggestion to increase (condi?) duration. That doesn't really fix the problem with the weapon skills that generate clones on these weapons. The traits are still completely dysfunctional with these weapons.

Any reasonably performing Condi Virt build is going to use Dagger/Pistol because that's where you might get enough bleeds for the whole thing to work.

I agree that if Sharper Images doesn't work with Virt ... should probably be addressed if Anet is SERIOUS about anyone considering a Condi Virt but I don't see a fix for the weapons here. 

 

Patching up the damage on these weapons would address this.  Because you'd be patching up the damage.

They don't need to be blades because the weapons already have their own condis and their own traits.  The problem is that the weapon design requires clones contributing their own auto attack damage to get competitive damage numbers because clones also cast the same autos that you do. So just make the damage numbers not require clones when you're virtuoso.

They've already done this with sword 3. Plenty of other professions have skill splits when they equip an elite spec.

There's no reason peak PvE condi virtuoso's set up wouldn't be dagger+pistol/ scepter+torch if they made the core condi weapons actually work.  And there's also PvP to consider.

[Salt Mode.3780]

15 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Patching up the damage on these weapons would address this.  Because you'd be patching up the damage.

They don't need to be blades because the weapons already have their own condis and their own traits.  The problem is that the weapon design requires clones contributing their own auto attack damage to get competitive damage numbers because clones also cast the same autos that you do. So just make the damage numbers not require clones when you're virtuoso.

They've already done this with sword 3. Plenty of other professions have skill splits when they equip an elite spec.

There's no reason peak PvE condi virtuoso's set up wouldn't be dagger+pistol/ scepter+torch if they made the core condi weapons actually work.  And there's also PvP to consider.

It is not within the vision of anet blah blah something something blah. If they want to make Virtuoso heavy power then virtuoso dont need to use all the weapon blah blah something blah. I dont understand why this is so hard understand blah.

[Hallow.7368]

12 hours ago, Alpha.1308 said:

uh, no

they can't be looked at as the same

> read that i mentioned "these weapons were designed around core mesmer"

as in 

c.l.o.n.e.s.

meaning, yes, it makes perfect sense to have these get a different benefit for virt

 

the mental gymnastics taken to go through loops and hurdles to be offended over a single correction, all because i was finding this information out for the first time, for myself, in real-time, while typing up the comment

 

me liking something

and actual balance

where something is actually worth using

is different

i've already explained i don't like the visuals, or the core concept of blades, and stated that's an opinion

however, i've also explained, in detail, the mechanics that don't function well enough for this game, as a fact

there's no point in this game that there's any benefit to choosing virtuoso over other options 

that has nothing to do with how i "like" something 

that's not an "opinion" 

you are physically less efficient picking this line, that chunks off a huge portion of effectiveness that core mesmer was designed around

it has less control

less support

and i guess it has more damage in high end pve raids, so congrats for that 

 

again

the

mental

gymnastics

taken

to ignore game balance

just to whine that it's my "opinion" that it's underperforming 

whatever you have to tell yourself to enjoy it, but people are getting laughed at in pvp for it, and mesmers were already a strong pick for pve raids to begin with

the only "opinion" about the balance around this is my "opinion" that mesmer definitely did not need an entire new e-spec, after years of being trashed on, just for it to be nothing more than "another high dps raid spec" and nothing more 

sure, that's an opinion

but that "opinion" doesn't change the fact that it could have ALSO been useful elsewhere, while ALSO retaining its high raid dps 

How is it under performing? Snowcrows is benching power virt at 40k dps which is very good. If there are classes providing support and going higher than that or doing the same amount they need to be nerfed not virt buffed. There is too much power creep in this game. Bosses and end game content were not designed with ludicrous amounts of damage in mind bladesworn already showed that to us when it was skipping mechanics with it's burst in the betas. The only person doing mental gymnastics is you by trying to inject your feelings into class balance and by making a quarter of your original post about how I was wrong and it's 2 3 and 4 instead of 3 4 and 5 despite it being a MISTAKE that I typed the wrong numbers.

[Hallow.7368]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, this is the problem I see with this suggestion. Virtuoso generates condi in its spec with blade attacks. What is the 'fix' on Scepter/Staff that will make these perform on Virtuoso with its condi traits reliant on blade attacks and bleeds? I don't see it. The problem isn't the weapons, it's the trait design. 

I mean, Anet COULD make a whole bunch of attacks on these weapons 'blades'  to work with the condi traits, but that seems really unlikely. I saw your suggestion to increase (condi?) duration. That doesn't really fix the problem with the weapon skills that generate clones on these weapons. The traits are still completely dysfunctional with these weapons.

Any reasonably performing Condi Virt build is going to use Dagger/Pistol because that's where you might get enough bleeds for the whole thing to work.

I agree that if Sharper Images doesn't work with Virt ... should probably be addressed if Anet is SERIOUS about anyone considering a Condi Virt but I don't see a fix for the weapons here. 

 

Actually it's pretty funny but focus and sword seem to be out performing pistol and torch for cVirt because they're lower cooldown and hit a bunch to proc bleeds.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Hallow.7368

[Hallow.7368]

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Patching up the damage on these weapons would address this.  Because you'd be patching up the damage.

They don't need to be blades because the weapons already have their own condis and their own traits.  The problem is that the weapon design requires clones contributing their own auto attack damage to get competitive damage numbers because clones also cast the same autos that you do. So just make the damage numbers not require clones when you're virtuoso.

They've already done this with sword 3. Plenty of other professions have skill splits when they equip an elite spec.

There's no reason peak PvE condi virtuoso's set up wouldn't be dagger+pistol/ scepter+torch if they made the core condi weapons actually work.  And there's also PvP to consider.

If they don't get blades then you are wasting your time even specing into virt for condi anyways? Just go mirage? I've said this before but even if they buff scepter or staff for cVirt your adept trait only procs bleeds on critical blade hits and your GM trait only amps bleed by 25% and only stocks blades from bleeds. If you don't want to play a bleed based build then just don't pick virt. Having a core weapon compete with the spec weapon that specifically dips into the espec mechanics and utilizes them to pair well with the espec's traits does not make any sense at all. I agree that it's kinda unfortunate that bleeds suck, but fortunately in that sense it can easily be rectified from the GM trait just getting a numbers tuning like 50% instead of 25% maybe?

Edited March 13, 2022 by Hallow.7368

[mortrialus.3062]

13 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

If they don't get blades then you are wasting your time even specing into virt for condi anyways? Just go mirage? I've said this before but even if they buff scepter or staff for cVirt your adept trait only procs bleeds on critical blade hits and your GM trait only amps bleed by 25% and only stocks blades from bleeds. If you don't want to play a bleed based build then just don't pick virt. Having a core weapon compete with the spec weapon that specifically dips into the espec mechanics and utilizes them to pair well with the espec's traits does not make any sense at all. I agree that it's kinda unfortunate that bleeds suck, but fortunately in that sense it can easily be rectified from the GM trait just getting a numbers tuning like 50% instead of 25% maybe?

That's literally no excuse for nerfing core weapon functionally because anet didn't think this thing through.

In PvP you're never going to run dagger and dagger only.  You need to supplement it with a weapon swap, probably scepter or staff.  Except those weapons are straight up kitten on Virtuoso so you literally have no good alt weapon options.  

 

How kittened in the head do you have to be to run around saying kitten like "virtuoso breaking core weapons is a good thing actually, and very smart."

You're a full on troll, defending the incomplete design of virtuoso because you know it's going to annoy people playing devil's advocate.

Who knows what spec is going to be viable. Condi  reaper was one of the absolute kings of HoT PvP.  Power scourge defined WvW all PoF. Power mirage saw tons of use in WvW and Spvp.  Soulbeast has basically never used it's mainhand dagger. But nothing is going to be viable when it's core weapons are straight up nerfed in ways literally NONE of the other professions have delt with for their elite specs.

Edited March 13, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Hallow.7368]

10 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

That's literally no excuse for nerfing core weapon functionally because anet didn't think this thing through.

In PvP you're never going to run dagger and dagger only.  You need to supplement it with a weapon swap, probably scepter or staff.  Except those weapons are straight up kitten on Virtuoso so you literally have no good alt weapon options.  

The nerf was a biproduct of making a unique take on the Mesmer class mechanic and they don't intend for you to use separate weapons that rely on the core version. I REALLY hope virt just dies in pvp so people will stop trying to call the class unfinished and weak overall just because you can't put whatever the hell weapon you want on it in pvp.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Hallow.7368

[mortrialus.3062]

Just now, Hallow.7368 said:

The nerf was a biproduct of making a unique take on the Mesmer class mechanic and they don't intend for you to use separate weapons that rely on the core version. I REALLY hope virt just dies in pvp so people will stop trying to call class the class unfinished and weak overall just because you can't put whatever weapon you want on it in pvp 

Virtuoso dying in PvP is all the more proof it's unfinished and weak.