Jade spheres do no damage in pvp

[Poelala.2830]

Maybe it was an ingenious balance decision that’s beyond my understanding but why do jade spheres do CC damage (6-30 crits) but great sword 5 on rev is an aoe that follows a player and takes 2 dodges to fully avoid and it does 7k crits on light armor with 1 circle?

[Zuko.7132]

it would be nice if they did more damage. my primary issue right now though is that catalyst can't gain energy while under quickness from jade sphere. Try it out. Makes using air sphere hurt you.

[Zuko.7132]

But ya, they should at least tick for like 100 damage. that's five hundred damage for the whole duration and about a thousand if it all crits. would still be meh, but better than nothing.

[Bleikopf.2491]

50 minutes ago, Zuko.7132 said:

it would be nice if they did more damage. my primary issue right now though is that catalyst can't gain energy while under quickness from jade sphere. Try it out. Makes using air sphere hurt you.

You can't gain energy while the jade sphere is out. Do you refer to that? It's something a lot of people have critiqued already. 

[Jski.6180]

I love to see it do more cc and condis mostly for on apply effects.

[Infusion.7149]

In the beta unveil video CMC stated it is meant for the field. Go watch it.
https://youtu.be/fSOtfivjD98?t=3506

 

Quote

 

the primary goal here is that's going to

58:22

be see i'm building up might this is a

58:24

fire field if i cast it on an enemy this

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is actually also going to do a little

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bit of damage uh in competitive modes

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this damage pulse is very very low it's

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actually using the 0.01 multiplier

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because the primary value of the skill

58:35

is the boons it is the combo field but

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that was not quite up to what we really

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needed it to be in pve so we put a

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damage pulse on there and just split it

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really really low to make sure that

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didn't create too much of a problem

 

 

Vindicator Eternity's Requiem probably needs rebalancing after the cast time reduction, don't compare to skills that aren't even fully balanced out yet.

[The Great Al.2546]

If it makes you feel better, they don’t do anything in PvE either. 

[Poelala.2830]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

In the beta unveil video CMC stated it is meant for the field. Go watch it.
https://youtu.be/fSOtfivjD98?t=3506

 

 

Vindicator Eternity's Requiem probably needs rebalancing after the cast time reduction, don't compare to skills that aren't even fully balanced out yet.

The content is currently live it makes no sense to not critique something in favor of a hypothetical future.

[Jski.6180]

Its just odd jade spheres can crit and there by trigger on crit effects but they are missing condis removing the ability to trigger on condi effects.

[Poelala.2830]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

In the beta unveil video CMC stated it is meant for the field. Go watch it.
https://youtu.be/fSOtfivjD98?t=3506

 

 

Vindicator Eternity's Requiem probably needs rebalancing after the cast time reduction, don't compare to skills that aren't even fully balanced out yet.

Few more things I thought about: Fire overload burns, does damage, lasts longer, applies more might, and is a fire field, AND gives fire aura on top of this. Jade sphere is a fire field that applies middling might. It is a direct downgrade. They also had FOUR betas to figure out how to not make vindicator completely insane, and failed. Why would a 5th test make a difference? Rev has historically been top tier indominable mandatory pick since its launch. The only spec of rev that wasn't insane was renegade and even then it got buffed to reneGOD, overtaking the meta.

[Poelala.2830]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its just odd jade spheres can crit and there by trigger on crit effects but they are missing condis removing the ability to trigger on condi effects.

All jade spheres are worse overloads. It's quite hilarious how air jade sphere only applies 1 second of quickness every second in the field thus lasting only 5 seconds IF you remain in the field. Every other class in the game, quite literally every class, has better quickness ability. The only jade sphere I like is the poison field on earth...

[Bleikopf.2491]

I think it's disingenuous to compare jade sphere with overloads. Overloads need to be channeled, Jade Spheres are instant. That's already a huge difference. Overloads also have a really long cool down, but apparently they decided to give Jade Spheres also a way too long cooldown in PvP/WvW as well for some reason. You need to be in an attunement for a while before you even can overload. Jade Sphere has an energy mechanic somewhere between abusable and needlessly punishing that should just get removed at this point and swapped with ammo cooldown. 

I'm not saying Jade Sphere isn't bad. It's lackluster. But it's not comparable. 

[Jski.6180]

4 minutes ago, Poelala.2830 said:

All jade spheres are worse overloads. It's quite hilarious how air jade sphere only applies 1 second of quickness every second in the field thus lasting only 5 seconds IF you remain in the field. Every other class in the game, quite literally every class, has better quickness ability. The only jade sphere I like is the poison field on earth...

They are "better" then overload because of the cast time and the lock. But the over all effect of overloads are better dmg / condi but worst boons.

[Poelala.2830]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

They are "better" then overload because of the cast time and the lock. But the over all effect of overloads are better dmg / condi but worst boons.

The cast time gives it more damage and more value overall than jade spheres. The cast time also apply unique effects to the finished overload like earth overload that cripples then immobilizes when it finishes. Elementalist’s boons from jade spheres are so bad they don’t compare to the boons and overall value of any class in pve. If you had to choose between a Healbrand, heal scrapper, Mesmer or elementalist for quickness… you’re never picking elementalist. The boons from overloads with the exception of air overload is superior to the jade spheres and jade spheres are inferior overall.

[Jski.6180]

6 minutes ago, Poelala.2830 said:

The cast time gives it more damage and more value overall than jade spheres. The cast time also apply unique effects to the finished overload like earth overload that cripples then immobilizes when it finishes. Elementalist’s boons from jade spheres are so bad they don’t compare to the boons and overall value of any class in pve. If you had to choose between a Healbrand, heal scrapper, Mesmer or elementalist for quickness… you’re never picking elementalist. The boons from overloads with the exception of air overload is superior to the jade spheres and jade spheres are inferior overall.

The overloads do move where the jade spheres dont that is an real issues for the game type i play wvw.

I am not saying ele is on part with any other class its very apparent anet dislike the ele class and they are over all unwilling to give the ele class any real power. A 1 sec Quickness is NOT ok its in no way of real use when you have scraper giving out 5 sec of quickness per "pemra" super speed is it applying on it self and moving arond. BUT the fact that you dont have a cast time for the jade spheres is very important vs the 4 sec cast time of overload and a 20 sec cd that you put the atument on after use is very badly made.

[Bleikopf.2491]

I'm absolutely not against buffing the boons from Jade Sphere. Considering the whole idea is giving you combo fields and a "point of power" for standing in it it's not performing well. Combo fields are power crept and feels more incidental than the main benefit of the Jade Sphere. Considering you need to stay in this tiny circle to receive the boons, we have not the tools to stay there. Catalyst has not enough defensive tools, no inherent tankiness and a big part of the damage feels like the opponent is bound to standing in a small circle, not you. 

[Nephalem.8921]

7 hours ago, The Great Al.2546 said:

If it makes you feel better, they don’t do anything in PvE either. 

Thats wrong. they are 20% of the pve cata dmg and tick for 8-10k. they make cata even a very potent open world class on top of being a hard to play but also very hard hitting dps.

Pve cata has only 2 issues currently and both are hammer 3 related. Jade spheres are fine in pve.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I suspect they were made to do no damage for fear of creating another Scourge-like incident.  

[SeTect.5918]

11 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Thats wrong. they are 20% of the pve cata dmg and tick for 8-10k. they make cata even a very potent open world class on top of being a hard to play but also very hard hitting dps.

U mean it would be a very potent open world e spec if it would have any sustain and if u would have a chance to keep orbs up and elemental empowerment above 7 stacks.
Yes, then it would be a potent open world class.

Dmg alone isnt making a good open world e spec, its sustain + dmg, and catalyst has no sustain.
And yes they hit 8-10k, but only with full boons, orb uptime and 10 stacks elemental empowerment.
In open world u lose half orb uptime and 3 or more stacks of ele empowerment. this is 20%+ crit chance, a ton of power and a ton of ferocity.
U wont crit 10k in open world, theres no chance for this.
Maybe u ll be able to do 8k sometimes if u stacked up a ton of might and u r able to crit. (getting 25 might is difficult alone)

Edited March 14, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Nephalem.8921]

10 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

U mean it would be a very potent open world e spec if it would have any sustain and if u would have a chance to keep orbs up and elemental empowerment above 7 stacks.
Yes, then it would be a potent open world class.

Dmg alone isnt making a good open world e spec, its sustain + dmg, and catalyst has no sustain.
And yes they hit 8-10k, but only with full boons, orb uptime and 10 stacks elemental empowerment.
In open world u lose half orb uptime and 3 or more stacks of ele empowerment. this is 20%+ crit chance, a ton of power and a ton of ferocity.
U wont crit 10k in open world, theres no chance for this.
Maybe u ll be able to do 8k sometimes if u stacked up a ton of might and u r able to crit. (getting 25 might is difficult alone)

If you define open world as able to solo bounties you would have a point but you dont need that much sustain for an event train or doing map metas. golden dumplings + strength sigil are a very easy way to achieve 25 might solo. you dont even need the strength sigil with dumplings most of the time on ele with the amount of multihits you have. even on the dps build you buff some quickness which is very nice in every map meta.

They are still hard hitting aoe circles. obviously you wont hit for bench numbers everywhere but a bs wont hit for 190k either there.

Elemental empowerment and especially orb 3 feel like they were designed with alacrity/quickness in mind. a whirl finisher on air, earth 2 and maybe a projectile finisher on fire 2 could help and maybe grant 2 empowerment per aura instead of 1 or other ways to generate it. cata needs some qol buffs. 

Hammer 3 should only be able to hit once per orbit for higher dmg so we could leave the park in hitbox gameplay behind. isnt this the same problem jalis hammers had?

Also hammer3 needs longer duration. without quickness i can use 1-2 skills per attunement and have to swap. orbs can even expire mid cast and you fire nothing. the eod specs except virtuoso are not polished at all.

But anyways, orb damage is not laughable in pve. it does 40-50k damage per target buffed. maybe they dont want to create another scourge but the 0dmg has to feel bad in pvp. i get the not being able to generate energy in pve because the spheres hit very hard there. makes no sense to have that restriction in pvp where they are just fields.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

If you define open world as able to solo bounties you would have a point but you dont need that much sustain for an event train or doing map metas. golden dumplings + strength sigil are a very easy way to achieve 25 might solo. you dont even need the strength sigil with dumplings most of the time on ele with the amount of multihits you have. even on the dps build you buff some quickness which is very nice in every map meta.

They are still hart hitting aoe circles. obviously you wont hit for bench numbers everywhere but a bs wont hit for 190k either there.

Elemental empowerment and especially orb 3 feel like they were designed with alacrity/quickness in mind. a whirl finisher on air, earth 2 and maybe a projectile finisher on fire 2 could help and maybe grant 2 empowerment per aura instead of 1 or other ways to generate it. cata needs some qol buffs. 

Hammer 3 should only be able to hit once per orbit for higher dmg so we could leave the park in hitbox gameplay behind. isnt this the same problem jalis hammers had?

Also hammer3 needs longer duration. without quickness i can use 1-2 skills per attunement and have to swap. orbs can even expire mid cast and you fire nothing. the eod specs except virtuoso are not polished at all.

But anyways, orb damage is not laughable in pve. it does 40-50k damage per target buffed. maybe they dont want to create another scourge but the 0dmg has to feel bad in pve. i get the not being able to generate energy in pve because the spheres hit very hard there.makes no sense to have that restriction in pvp where they are just fields.

Thats right yes. Its always a thing what u define but Catalyst already struggles with sustain if it comes to elite enemies.

However I disagree with this, well not disagree but I want to add something:
 

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Elemental empowerment and especially orb 3 feel like they were designed with alacrity/quickness in mind. a whirl finisher on air, earth 2 and maybe a projectile finisher on fire 2 could help and maybe grant 2 empowerment per aura instead of 1 or other ways to generate it. cata needs some qol buffs.

Well yes Elemental empowerment and orb 3 feel like they were designed with alac and quickness tho even then people that made benchmarks struggle with Elemental Empowerment.
However I disagree with the combo finishers because the aura on combo trait (Elemental_Epitome) has a 10 sec ICD. So I dont think a whirl finisher or projectile finisher would do a lot. Elemental Epitome also needs a lower ICD.
I also think that ccs would help because for a hammer, Catalyst hammer has really low amount of ccs. Only air 4 (which makes u fly to the moon) and air 5. CCs are helping to get elemental empowerment too due to this trait: Vicious_Empowerment. If Some more hammer skills could be a cc it would be a great help already.
Also Jump finishers are helping because they are giving aura already on the combo finisher even without the trait.

So yes Whirl finishers are good, but Elemental Epitome needs a reduced ICD for this to work and hammer needs more ccs.
Then you can get a good Elemental Empowerment uptime also without quickness.
Around 1 cc on each attunement would be nice.

CCs:
Air 4 could turn into a leap to the enemy (instead of away from it) with a leap finisher and knockdown.
Water 2 could knockdown for 1 second on the first hit. (because its 4 hits and then just 1 of the 4 hits does no dmg in pvp/wvw)
Fire 4 could be a very small launch (or fire 2)
Earth 5 could get a small knockdown or earth 4 could get a counter attack with daze or stun.

Combo Finishers:
Air 2 could be a whirl finisher.
Fire 2 could be a projectile finisher.
Earth 2 could be a whirl finisher.

And Elemental Epitome really needs a lower cooldown.

Edited March 14, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[SeTect.5918]

On 3/14/2022 at 2:44 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Thats wrong. they are 20% of the pve cata dmg and tick for 8-10k. they make cata even a very potent open world class on top of being a hard to play but also very hard hitting dps.

Pve cata has only 2 issues currently and both are hammer 3 related. Jade spheres are fine in pve.

Well now its dealing far lower overall damage Because of cooldown increase

Edited March 15, 2022 by SeTect.5918
Missunderstood something

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Well now its surely not dealing 8-10k hits anymore.

Lucky if u do a 3k hit, gl tho, I think it wont even deal 3k even if u r lucky.

it will still hit for like 8k. im not going to defend this patch. already posted in various other threads how bad this change is.

Proper small hitbox before was 38. Golem area small is still significantly bigger than some small boss hitboxes. its sub reaper level....

[SeTect.5918]

6 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

it will still hit for like 8k. im not going to defend this patch. already posted in various other threads how bad this change is.

Proper small hitbox before was 38. Golem area small is still significantly bigger than some small boss hitboxes. its sub reaper level....

Yea u r right, I missread it but the cooldown increase will decrease the sphere damage by a very large amount.

Depends on the rotating tho, but without quickness its surely.

Tho rotating the sphere will be more difficult now. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by SeTect.5918