Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[TigStripe.2379]

7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The overworld content is chalk full of metas based around playing with other people, as well as one off events that require a group of people to do, and are labeled as such.

Those are very specific instances within the overworld experience. The game, as a whole, does not force player interaction at any point until end game, and that is solely optional content.

In GW1, there was a quest in pre-Searing that required you to party to progress the main story. With that single, simple interaction, the game both teaches and endorses multiplayer content more than GW2 ever has.

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

It is exceedingly rude to assume people aren't reading abilities

Yeah, it kind of is, but then again how else do you interpret some of the repeated complaints like "the game doesn't explain how do deal more dmg"? It does it almost right from the start of the game. It does it by explaining what each of the attributes is doing, as well as by containing skill and trait facts/descriptions. Nobody says everyone needs to theory craft their ultimate optimized dps build and by far that's just not needed, not even close. The game tells the players how to deal more damage and it does it literally through showing the text and numbers on their screens. Do you think this is correct or incorrect? 

If you think this is incorrect, why?

If you think this is correct, then how is this not an issue with "soft skills" described by the person you've responded to?

 

12 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

and that is solely optional content.

Yes -and so is this one.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Shivan.9438]

Lmfao.
"Rotations." 
"Cue's."
"Training."

A game built where the overwhelmingly majority of game play is open world/public and now you have to be a raider to experience content.

Anet was warned about this when they implemented raids in HoT. About how the 1% 'ers were going to dictate content.
 

[TigStripe.2379]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, it kind of is, but then again how else do you interpret some of the repeated complaints like "the game doesn't explain how do deal more dmg"? It does almost right from the start of the game. It does it by explaining what each of the attributes is doing, as well as by containing skill and trait facts/descriptions. Nobody says everyone needs to theory craft their ultimate optimized dps build, not even close. The game tells the players how to deal more damage and it does it literally through showing the text on their screens. Do you think this is correct or incorrect?

This is pretty inconsequential to the discussion. I was remarking on the negative, "I'm a better player" attitude I've been seeing surrounding DE. The "just git gud" mentality is a plague. The average player is not standing stationary jamming 1 and ignoring everything on their screen. Are they optimizing builds? Probably not. Do they have all-ascended gear? I can see the answer being no.

I do not consider myself anything special as a GW2 player. Lord knows I die too much in open world content. But assuming the majority of players are doing the bare minimum within the game is both elitist and demoralizing. And it doesn't address the real issue, which is "why is the end result per player so widely variable in this event?"

[mythical.6315]

2 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

The average player is not standing stationary jamming 1 and ignoring everything on their screen.

They are if the average DPS is 3-5K as some people on here are saying. Mashing skills would be closer to 7-10K. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

5 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Lmfao.
"Rotations." 
"Cue's."
"Training."

A game built where the overwhelmingly majority of game play is open world/public and now you have to be a raider to experience content.

Anet was warned about this when they implemented raids in HoT. About how the 1% 'ers were going to dictate content.
 

If you associate not dying to everything being a Raider, then yes. You gotta be a Raider. 

1%-ers really dictate content in EoD, surely. 

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

This is pretty inconsequential to the discussion. I was remarking on the negative, "I'm a better player" attitude I've been seeing surrounding DE. The "just git gud" mentality is a plague. The average player is not standing stationary jamming 1 and ignoring everything on their screen. Are they optimizing builds? Probably not. Do they have all-ascended gear? I can see the answer being no.

I do not consider myself anything special as a GW2 player. Lord knows I die too much in open world content. But assuming the majority of players are doing the bare minimum within the game is both elitist and demoralizing. And it doesn't address the real issue, which is "why is the end result per player so widely variable in this event?"

Inconsequential to the discussion? It was one of the claims made on the previous page (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/112337-dragons-end-meta-is-garbage/page/13/?tab=comments#comment-1623233 ), probably also at least one of the reasons the post you've responded to included what it did about the "soft skills" ("Expecting people to read what their stats and traits do is apparently asking for too much.").

If people want to pretend something's not explained in the game, when it is, then what other conlusion than "I didn't bother reading it" is ther to get from it?

And I don't think it has anything to do with "git gut" attitude, since that's not really what is being said here either.

 

And I don't think that "assuming some people are doing the bare minimum" is exactly elitists. It seems in line with human nature and it's perfectly logical. That's also what I already wrote about in this thread. If the game doesn't need you do deal more dps... why would you, when you can just stack defenses and force your way through the content? If you don't need to dodge or use specific skills/effects/keys at specific time... well, again, why would you? The game needs some limited content that requires people to push a little further in order for them to improve. And if they don't want to? No problem, it is still optional and there's plenty of content that doesn't require "anything more".

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[TigStripe.2379]

1 minute ago, mythical.6315 said:

They are if the average DPS is 3-5K as some people on here are saying. Mashing skills would be closer to 7-10K. 

If someone says the "average DPS of a group" is 3-5K, demand screenshots of the meters. This is blatant hyperbole in an attempt to make themselves look better by comparing to "bad players."

[mythical.6315]

5 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

If someone says the "average DPS of a group" is 3-5K, demand screenshots of the meters. This is blatant hyperbole in an attempt to make themselves look better by comparing to "bad players."

They said it’s the average DPS of the players and not the group itself. This is coming from one or two people who support the meta being changed. 

[TigStripe.2379]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If people want to pretend something's not explained in the game, when it is, then what other conlusion than "I didn't bother reading it" is ther to get from it?

And I don't think it has anything to do with "git gut" attitude, since that's not really what is being said here either.

There are loud people coming onto the forums and complaining of people doing 3-5k damage.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are loud people coming on the forum and displaying that they don't do the bare minimum of learning the game they're playing.

The game takes both kinds. Unfortunately, some of them find the forums.

My reply was 100% in response to the git gud attitude. It isn't helpful, it reads like you're just being an kitten, and doesn't address any kind of real issue surrounding the event's difficulty.

[Raizel.8175]

24 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

 

It is exceedingly rude to assume people aren't reading abilities or doing more than "stand around pressing 1" as has been stated so many time sin these discussions. Also, don't diminish people's social anxieties. Sometimes interacting in video games is the extent of what people find themselves comfortable with, and some people aren't even comfortable with that. GW2 has historically been a great game for people like that.

Based on your personal history with the event as compared to mine, there is a vast variation in success across groups, with or without support builds involved. If you're "always managing to succeed," then the groups I've seen are just vastly inferior to the ones you get into.

That's the situation several people are depicting though?

Other than that, GW2 has been good at putting a certain part of the "community" - if you can even call it that regarding the myriad amount of bubbles the "community" consists of - into a very comfortable cushion. While shared participation is a great idea, GW2 sadly didn't balance the loss of conflict and thus socialization linked to shared participation with incentives to socialize on a meaningful level in GW2. Most people in this game are basically playing alone together with other people - at least that's what the vast majority of open world content is like.

For the health of the game, people should be happy that there is an event like DE.

[TigStripe.2379]

3 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

That's the situation several people are depicting though?

Other than that, GW2 has been good at putting a certain part of the "community" - if you can even call it that regarding the myriad amount of bubbles the "community" consists of - into a very comfortable cushion. While shared participation is a great idea, GW2 sadly didn't balance the loss of conflict and thus socialization linked to shared participation with incentives to socialize on a meaningful level in GW2. Most people in this game are basically playing alone together with other people - at least that's what the vast majority of open world content is like.

For the health of the game, people should be happy that there is an event like DE.

I like DE. I love the organized metas.

I just don't think it's tuned right for the average player to experience the level of success they need to continue to play the event, and the event isn't going to survive if it's relegated to only more raid-oriented people/groups.

Edited March 30, 2022 by TigStripe.2379

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

There are loud people coming onto the forums and complaining of people doing 3-5k damage.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are loud people coming on the forum and displaying that they don't do the bare minimum of learning the game they're playing.

The game takes both kinds. Unfortunately, some of them find the forums.

My reply was 100% in response to the git gud attitude. It isn't helpful, it reads like you're just being an kitten, and doesn't address any kind of real issue surrounding the event's difficulty.

Soo... I guess checking the comment I've linked and the quote I've included is just being avoided? As I said, I've responded with what I responded, because of the context of the posts from this thread, from the previous page. The post you've initially responded to also -from my understanding- seemed to be including that bit of context. So for example people pretending "the game doesn't explain how to deal more dmg". If they truly think so, it means they didn't bother reading the explanations provided by the game. It doesn't mean they'll be some kind of a complete end-game player the moment they bother reading it. Instead, it's about people attempting to make these blatantly false claims to pretend "there's no way to learn since the game didn't explain it" (except it did -which still doesn't mean the learning process is short and easy, it's still a process that takes time).

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

13 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

They are if the average DPS is 3-5K as some people on here are saying. Mashing skills would be closer to 7-10K. 

The build i was using on my former main when i finally decided to install arc was completely unable to reach 7-10k dps at the best possible play. It was doing more like 2-3k. Yeah, that wasn't a great (dps-wise) build. No, i had no idea how bad it was. I was completely unaware about how big the dps discrepancies could get. And i was actually thinking about my builds and actively and carefully gearing up my characters. The game just gave me no hints whatsoever about the impact my build decisions had dps-wise.

 

[TigStripe.2379]

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Soo... I guess checking the comment I've linked and the quote I've included is just being avoided? As I said, I've responded with what I responded, because of the context of the posts from this thread, from the previous page. The post you've initially responded to also -from my understanding- seemed to be including that bit of context. So for example people pretending "the game doesn't explain how to deal more dmg". If they truly think so, it means they didn't bother reading the explanations provided by the game. It doesn't mean they'll be some kind of a complete end-game player the moment they bother reading it. Instead, it's about people attempting to make these blatantly false claims to pretend "there's no way to learn since the game didn't explain it" (except it did -which still doesn't mean the learning process is short and easy, it's still a process that takes time).

I honestly don't even know how a game "explains how to increase dps" so I guess I just ignored that comment entirely.

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

I honestly don't even know how a game "explains how to increase dps" so I guess I just ignored that comment entirely.

That's where the "reading what the game explains to you" part came from. If someone thinks the game doesn't tell them what impacts the damage they deal, then they just didn't bother reading what it explained to them right from the start of the leveling process.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[TigStripe.2379]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The build i was using on my former main when i finally decided to install arc was completely unable to reach 7-10k dps at the best possible play. It was doing more like 2-3k. Yeah, that wasn't a great (dps-wise) build. No, i had no idea how bad it was. I was completely unaware about how big the dps discrepancies could get. And i was actually thinking about my builds and actively and carefully gearing up my characters. The game just gave me no hints whatsoever about the impact my build decisions had dps-wise.

 

I'm very sorry you've had an experience like this, but I honestly have never heard of someone having so much trouble understanding how traits and prefixes define your damage output. I guess some kind of "gearing tutorial" could be helpful in early game, but your experience feels like an outlier to me.

[TigStripe.2379]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That's where the "reading what the game explains to you" part came from.

And thus why I didn't regard that part of the comment at all. There are extremes of all kinds. But that's hardly the average experience, so it didn't feel pertinent.

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

And thus why I didn't regard that part of the comment at all. There are extremes of all kinds. But that's hardly the average experience, so it didn't feel pertinent.

Ok, understandable. Now try to also understand that the responses you've quoted on this page were made within the context of those specific repeated false claims, not just as some "generally true claim about everyone not dealing xx damage". That's... pretty much all I'm attempting to explain now 😄

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[TigStripe.2379]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, understandable. Now try to also understand that the responses you've quoted on this page were made within the context of those specific false claims, not just as a "generally true claim about everyone not dealing xx damage".

But those kinds of responses are not limited to this thread. Not in the least bit. They're everywhere.

Plus the quote I used also dunked on people with social anxieties, so I guess I just assumed they were making generalizations.

I see where your frustration comes from now, my bad.

Edited March 30, 2022 by TigStripe.2379

[Sobx.1758]

12 hours ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

But those kinds of responses are not limited to this thread. Not in the least bit. They're everywhere.

Ok and what does it change about what I said? The fact remains that the posts about it in this thread, on this and previous pages were made in light of what was written specifically in this very thread, on both this and last pages. All it shows is that what you've responded to isn't unsubstantiated, but is based on actual, extremely recent posts.

12 hours ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

Plus the quote I used also dunked on people with social anxieties, so I guess I just assumed they were making generalizations.

Yes, this part I can understand.

 

 

e: It's hilarious how you've been spamed with likes as long as we were not in agreement, but the moment we've came to understanding, people suddenly got oh so confused 😅

Edited March 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That's where the "reading what the game explains to you" part came from. If you think the game doesn't tell you what impacts the damage you deal, then you just didn't bother reading what it explained to you right from the start of the leveling process.

Because it doesn't. I mean, you know that Power "increases attack". How? The game does not tell you. Condition Damage increases condition damage. Again, by how? The game does not reveal that. At least with Precision and Ferocity you have additional stats (critical chance and Critical Damage) that indirectly show their effect. For the most part however, you won;t have any idea what the impact of most stats is. You know it only in a very, very general way - which is a problem when the time comes to compare different traits that each seem to be offensive, but in a different way. How much power is a direct buff to damage worth? How much power is a cooldown reduction for a certain group of skills, or a specific weapon worth? What is the impact of a reduction on weapon switch cooldown? What is the impact of (not so) incidental conditions on a power build? Power dps stats on a condition build?

Hint: remember, the game does not tell you what the damage calculation is. It does not tell you how big (or small) a trait or stat change might be. It does not tell you a lot of things that are important for making the right decisions about your builds.

[Raizel.8175]

27 minutes ago, TigStripe.2379 said:

I like DE. I love the organized metas.

I just don't think it's tuned right for the average player to experience the level of success they need to continue to play the event, and the event isn't going to survive if it's relegated to only more raid-oriented people/groups.

Should there only be rewards handed on a silver platter though? Pushing people to improve and setting a minimum skill level isn't a bad thing. The lack thereof is one of the reasons why LI/KP-requirements exist.

I also don't like the notion that DE is targetted towards the raiding audience. First of all, that audience is far from being as coherent as people think - they often talk about the raiding community but actually mean the upper 1% of said community. Raids are more often than not simply done by your average Joe. Said average Joe probably also doesn't just have experience with open world content, but also with WvW, sPvP and instanced content - most people won't go blind through years of playing the game after all. Hitting 7k DPS with all those boons flying around shouldn't be a problem for the average Joe.

Now here's the argument that's kittening me off the most: That the raiding community is "overvalued" and your average Joe "undervalued". On one hand, that's pure nonsense. Just put the amount of maps released during the last few years in comparision with raids etc. released. On the other hand, open world content doesn't just "belong" to those "supercasual" - or rather: unwilling - people just like raid content doesn't just belong to some arbitrary "elite". The content belongs to everyone and thus doesn't need to cater to some niche "supercasual" audience - which most of the previous content did.

Lastly, the sheer lack of independence several people seem to suffer from is baffling. What's wrong with using the internet to just search for anwers about the game? Your average Joe probably knows metabattle. That's more than enough to succeed in any content the game offers. Snowcrows has become irrelevant anyways.

[Raizel.8175]

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I mean, you know that Power "increases attack". How? The game does not tell you. Condition Damage increases condition damage. Again, by how?

Duh. Apparently it's considered evil to refer to common sense nowadays.

[fsabe.6593]

And the thread bizarrely continues with comments about "well, then players should [...]".
It's so strange to me, as it's so simple: there's no should or should-nots. There is just how players play the game. It's literally the only thing that matters.

If arenanet was planning on using this design to change player behaviour, the data I have suggests that it has failed. That is, unless my 12 losing streak is an aberration, which I'd bet it is not.

Edited March 30, 2022 by fsabe.6593