"We see healing and cleanse as the main pieces of scrapper's support identity" Really?

[ThrakathNar.4537]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Except med kit is still overperforming in WVW even with the nerfs.
Heal mechanist isn't used because the mech has a mind of its own and it may die leaving you with no barrier engine , using mace for barrier has an opportunity cost of not using med blaster.

I fully expected med kit to be toned down, although it probably should have been the heal's scaling with boons which was not split in Feb 2020 patch. If they have a goal of pushing tempest as a support then Faithful strike's healing should have been scaled back on firebrand as well similar to every "1 spam" passive (it wasn't touched in Feb 2020 patch either) similar to elementalist , druid, and revenant staff.

And yet they didn't nerf med blaster - they nerfed MDF. A trait that doesn't work at all with med blaster, since that skill only applies healing to allies, it doesn't heal yourself.

 

Also an AI companion may hold mechanist back, but it doesn't hold core back from being as good as scrapper. In theory, core could provide an alternative to scrapper, providing boonrip with tools+throw mine instead of superspeed, but the numbers aren't there. The issue is that that theoretical build which is too weak for the current meta has just been nerfed as collateral damage. That's the issue with nerfing core to compensate for overpowered elite specs.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Seems someone doesn't understand how game development works. If Anet views Scrapper as something players think it's not ... then two thinks can happen:

1. Anet will change it until it does match their view.

2. The players simply have a different view than Anet. The problem here is that the relevant view will not be that of the player.  

In short ... if Anet view Scrapper as healing/cleanse and those aren't things it does ... get ready for a WILD ride of changes. Personally, I can see Anet's POV here ... it's entirely possible to play an effective healing Scrapper even though I dislike that style of playing it in WvW. The cleansing is a little more indirect but still possible. 

Honestly, if that's actually what ANet's vision for the spec is, then it's fine if they change it to that. There's just a small issue of how much changing they need to do.

 

Currently, Scrapper traitline brings 0 healing traits and effectively 0 healing skills, since the shared healing from medic gyro is so small. It also brings 0 cleanse traits, and 1 cleanse skill.

At the same time, Scrapper brings 2 superspeed traits and 1 superspeed skill (plus the other 4 from traiting). It also brings 1 quickness trait, and the corresponding 5 quickness skills with traits.

 

By numerical comparison - Scrapper's current identity (Scrapper's identity, not engineer's) is far more focused on superspeed and quickness than healing and cleansing, and yet the first two are dismissed as being less important than the latter two. If ANet want to change those traits so that they instead do heal/cleanse effects then that's something that they're perfectly entitled to do, but until that happens there is a clear difference between what they say about the game, and what is observed.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

the main reason why everyone runs 1 scrapper per subsquad is stealth.

So this nerf will basically change nothing. If ANET wants more support options, they need to remove stealth from that mode. Which would make wvw a lot better in every aspect.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Honestly, if that's actually what ANet's vision for the spec is, then it's fine if they change it to that. There's just a small issue of how much changing they need to do.

 

Currently, Scrapper traitline brings 0 healing traits and effectively 0 healing skills, since the shared healing from medic gyro is so small. It also brings 0 cleanse traits, and 1 cleanse skill.

At the same time, Scrapper brings 2 superspeed traits and 1 superspeed skill (plus the other 4 from traiting). It also brings 1 quickness trait, and the corresponding 5 quickness skills with traits.

 

By numerical comparison - Scrapper's current identity (Scrapper's identity, not engineer's) is far more focused on superspeed and quickness than healing and cleansing, and yet the first two are dismissed as being less important than the latter two. If ANet want to change those traits so that they instead do heal/cleanse effects then that's something that they're perfectly entitled to do, but until that happens there is a clear difference between what they say about the game, and what is observed.

Lots of that is true but here is the issue I think is going to exist. What does Anet's data tell them? I'm willing to bet it tells them that there isn't much variation in the WvW Scrapper Heal/Support builds people use. 

So you can argue that the identity of Scrapper in WvW is Superspeed/Quickness and they happen to be also used as heal/cleanse bots ... or you can argue the identity of Scrapper in WvW is Healing/Cleanse and they happen to also used as Superspeed/Quickness. It's academic because the identity description isn't what is relevant here, the build is. For whatever reason, that Scrapper build does too much for Anets comfort level. 

Now, here is the part that is the kick ... you are right that Scrapper itself is a pretty lame toolset for healing and cleansing at the WvW level. So yeah, feels bad but ... those heal/cleansing nerfs are going to HAVE to come from core toolset. It does make sense though; if the heals/cleanse are OP, the spec is irrelevant. it just happens that people are running Scrapper for this.

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Kuma.1503]

10 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Super speed and quickness are so anti-thematic for how the scrapper appears, You would expect them to be these slower moving, slow attacking but hard hitting and tough melee fighters since their trademark is a 2-handed hammer, it doesn't exactly scream lightspeed...

What they should have done is simply removed the super speed (which is such a failure of a buff btw) and quickness (which should never have been allowed to multi target) then placed in more power and defense options to solidify what people expected of the scrapper, more renekton, less yuumi.

I have a lot to say about this because it makes me sad. 

Thematically, Scrapper is all about momentum. You throw your weight around, and the inertia behind your attack turns you into an unstoppable force. That's the thematic reason behind stability and superspeed. 

With the quickness, you can imagine them using the kinetic energy behind their previous attack to empower their next attack. 

There's also hints in the naming of the traits: 

Mass Momentum. Kenetic Stabililizers (reworked to kinetic accelerators), object in motion, ect. 

It could have been done better though. The way scrapper gains its quickness, superspeed and stability doesn't make sense.

I liked when superspeed triggered on leap finisher or  when a blast finisher when off in close proximity. Both contain a lot of kinetic energy. You could imagine the scrapper using the blast to propel themselves forward or using the momentum from their leap to continue beating you in the face. 

When they reworked this to work on heal they killed the RP of the spec. 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[aceofbass.2163]

10 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Super speed and quickness are so anti-thematic for how the scrapper appears, You would expect them to be these slower moving, slow attacking but hard hitting and tough melee fighters since their trademark is a 2-handed hammer, it doesn't exactly scream lightspeed...

I think scrapper's initial intent was a cc class back when it was released. I was actually thinking about this and exactly what you said that scrapper is now all about superspeed/quickness which does not seem appropriate for the specialization theme/lorewise. Should have been something they throw their weight around for damage and cc type of thing.

Edited March 30, 2022 by aceofbass.2163

[ThrakathNar.4537]

8 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

They weren't talking about the spec but the build played in WvW so yeah they slightly nerfed core engi to reduce the difference between the heal output of a support scrapper with other potential support specs from other classes. And they rightfully nerfed the perma superspeed not just the Medic field. 

Nothing wrong in what they did and don't worry Support scrapper is still at the top of the foodchain.

 

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

those heal/cleansing nerfs are going to HAVE to come from core toolset. It does make sense though; if the heals/cleanse are OP, the spec is irrelevant. it just happens that people are running Scrapper for this.

 

I don't care if Support Scrapper is at the top of the food chain in terms of supports (I'd be completely fine if Tempest or Druid or HealRev or something supplanted it at the top) - I just care that core medic engi is lower down on the support tier list than it was before.

 

When it comes down to it - core engi doesn't offer substantially more healing or cleansing than tempest does. Scrapper is picked much more frequently because of the utility package it offers (Stealth and Superspeed). If Scrapper were deleted and it were a choice exclusively between core engi and tempest (pretending other healers aren't options) then tempest would be the most likely pick, due to the more reliable boon output and utility of auras (reflect, stun, etc). The heals/cleanse of engi aren't necessarily OP - on core they're balanced out by the fact that you basically can't do anything else, whereas Scrapper gets additional utility for free.

 

There is a solution to this issue though, and it's a solution ANet used in this very patch with Firebrand (and in the past with Scourge). That is to make it so that traits only lose effectiveness when a specific elite spec is equipped with them. Using this, you could bring Scrapper in line with the other top supports without making the core package (which underperforms on its own) worse. Of course, this change would establish that healing is Core's identity and superspeed/quickness as Scrapper's and thus is unlikely to be something ANet would do as it evidently doesn't fit their vision.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Shaogin.2679]

12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So yeah, feels bad but ... those heal/cleansing nerfs are going to HAVE to come from core toolset.

The issue with this though is that they then nerfed a core trait on Guardian but made it so that the nerf only takes affect when Firebrand is equipped. If such a thing is an option, then why was core Engineer nerfed when Scrapper was the problem?

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

The issue with this though is that they then nerfed a core trait on Guardian but made it so that the nerf only takes affect when Firebrand is equipped. If such a thing is an option, then why was core Engineer nerfed when Scrapper was the problem?

Well, firstly, just because they have the option doesn't mean they will use it universally. I can only assume it's because they think that level of healing is OPed for all Engi specs. 

[ThrakathNar.4537]

2 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

Why would you even consider Core engi as a potential support in WvW when scrapper and even Mecha can provide better? Function gyro annoys you that much?

By nerfing Med Field, Anet reduce the overperforming healing from Scrapper while making sure Mecha doesn't become another healer. If by any chance, your idea was to play a heal Mecha, Anticorrosion Plating is a better fit anyway.

That's literally my point though - Core doesn't deserve to get nerfed, because it is dramatically outperformed by the elite specs. Buildcraft is at its best when as many options are available as possible, and nerfing specs that are not overperforming to bring in line specs that are just makes the issue worse. In my opinion, the direction for balancing the game's diversity should be to have it such that every single profession's core class has a viable build for every role. It's an ambitious desire, but it would go a long way towards making the game more interesting. A greater range of builds means that gameplay gets less repetitive. This change however goes the other way.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

That's literally my point though - Core doesn't deserve to get nerfed, because it is dramatically outperformed by the elite specs. Buildcraft is at its best when as many options are available as possible, and nerfing specs that are not overperforming to bring in line specs that are just makes the issue worse. In my opinion, the direction for balancing the game's diversity should be to have it such that every single profession's core class has a viable build for every role. It's an ambitious desire, but it would go a long way towards making the game more interesting. A greater range of builds means that gameplay gets less repetitive. This change however goes the other way.

You are right ... it doesn't deserve it, but the practical reality is that it doesn't matter because the Scrapper build is what is of concern here. Let's not pretend Anet is sacrificing build diversity at the altar of balance here because no one was playing core Engi support significantly over Scrapper version anyways. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Shaogin.2679]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, firstly, just because they have the option doesn't mean they will use it universally. I can only assume it's because they think that level of healing is OPed for all Engi specs. 

But again, if it means not destroying core specs in an attempt to nerf elite specs, then this is something they should be doing. They obviously cared enough about Guardian to do this. As for core support Engi being OP, I can't possibly see how they could ever come to such a conclusion. If they do think this so, it would be nice for them to explain why, rather than just saying Scrapper is OP and then nerfing Engineer across the board, when clearly they don't even need to.

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You are right ... it doesn't deserve it, but the practical reality is that it doesn't matter because the Scrapper build is what is of concern here.

And again, based on what they did for core Guardian, it is clear that there was no actual need to nerf core Engineer in order to nerf Scrapper. They made a conscious choice to do so, with reasoning as to why. Sure there is nothing we can do about it now, but it is understandable for Engineers to be fed up with this style of balancing when Engineer takes hit after hit thanks to elite specs, and Anet just added an additional slap in the face by going out of their way to specifically nerf Firebrand without affecting Guardian.

 

I mean hell, they even decided that core Power Guard wasn't doing good enough in PvP and decided to buff it, meanwhile core Power Engineer, core Condi Engineer, hell core anything Engineer along with many other core specs, are still garbage and have been for quite some time. Feels like blatant favoritism to be honest.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

But again, if it means not destroying core specs in an attempt to nerf elite specs, then this is something they should be doing. They obviously cared enough about Guardian to do this. As for core support Engi being OP, I can't possibly see how they could ever come to such a conclusion. If they do think this so, it would be nice for them to explain why, rather than just saying Scrapper is OP and then nerfing Engineer across the board, when clearly they don't even need to.

And again, based on what they did for core Guardian, it is clear that there was no actual need to nerf core Engineer in order to nerf Scrapper. They made a conscious choice to do so, with reasoning as to why. Sure there is nothing we can do about it now, but it is understandable for Engineers to be fed up with this style of balancing when Engineer takes hit after hit thanks to elite specs, and Anet just added an additional slap in the face by going out of their way to specifically nerf Firebrand without affecting Guardian.

 

I mean hell, they even decided that core Power Guard wasn't doing good enough in PvP and decided to buff it, meanwhile core Power Engineer, core Condi Engineer, hell core anything Engineer along with many other core specs, are still garbage and have been for quite some time. Feels like blatant favoritism to be honest.

I don't get this post ... how have you excluded the possibility that if the healing is OP on Scrapper, it's OP ALSO on Engi because the healing is specific to core Engi in the first place?

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get this post ... how have you excluded the possibility that if the healing is OP on Scrapper, it's OP ALSO on Engi because the healing is not related to Scrapper in the first place?

Quote

Scrapper is one of the premier support builds in WvW, and it's one that's potent at too many things. Scrapper brings strong healing and condition cleanse in addition to granting powerful effects like superspeed and quickness and generating boons with Purity of Purpose, among other things. We see healing and cleanse as the main pieces of scrapper's support identity, and while it will still grant superspeed and quickness (and other boons), we see its current output of these effects as too high. We do want scrapper to be a capable healer, but it's currently a bit stronger than we'd like so we're bringing down the healing of Medical Dispersion Field.

Because according to their explanation, the issue was the Scrapper being potent at too many things at once. And sure, we could also read this and translate it as maybe they think healing on Engineers is way too high across the board and needed a nerf and they just didn't think about outright saying that. However, Anet's track record suggests it is far more likely that they did not even consider the affects that this nerf would have on the core and other elite specs.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Because according to their explanation, the issue was the Scrapper being potent at too many things at once. And sure, we could also read this and translate it as maybe they think healing on Engineers is way too high across the board and needed a nerf and they just didn't think about outright saying that. However, Anet's track record suggests it is far more likely that they did not even consider the affects that this nerf would have on the core and other elite specs.

I don't see what's unreasonable here. If the healing was too much on Scrapper ... it would be the SAME amount of too much healing on Core Engi too because 100% of the healing source and modifiers is on the core Engi toolset.  

I'm going to put this out there as well ... that the healing Mechanist is actually MORE broken from an OP POV with the same healing setup than the Scrapper is. The only problem here is that Anet didn't write an essay to appease the forum lawyers to justify their approach to the change. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't see what's unreasonable here. If the healing was too much on Scrapper ... it would be the SAME amount of too much healing on Core Engi too because 100% of the healing source is on the core Engi toolset.  

 

3 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Because according to their explanation, the issue was the Scrapper being potent at too many things at once.

Again, the nerf on Scrapper's support was driven by the fact that it was performing too well in too many aspects at once according to Anet.

26 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You are right ... it doesn't deserve it, but the practical reality is that it doesn't matter because the Scrapper build is what is of concern here.

And apparently you agree.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

 

Again, the nerf on Scrapper's support was driven by the fact that it was performing too well in too many aspects at once according to Anet.

Right ... and since the healing portion of that performance is 100% derived from the core Engi toolset, that would mean by default, the healing on core and other specs is at LEAST the same amount of unacceptable to Anet as it is on Scrapper. 

I mean, there isn't a reason to lawyer up here to protest the change. It makes sense across the board. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... and since the healing is 100% derived from the core Engi toolset, that would mean by default, the healing on core and other specs is at LEAST the same amount of unacceptable to Anet as it is on Scrapper. 

I can only assume that you have decided to stop reading at this point since you're just ignoring me now. Because clearly you understand that, while the Scrapper may have been too potent in too many areas, providing perma quickness, near perma superspeed, healing, and condi removal, the core Engineer just focuses on healing and condi removal and has other disadvantages due to not taking Scrapper.

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

I can only assume that you have decided to stop reading at this point since you're just ignoring me now. Because clearly you understand that, while the Scrapper may have been too potent in too many areas, providing perma quickness, near perma superspeed, healing, and condi removal, the core Engineer just focuses on healing and condi removal and has other disadvantages due to not taking Scrapper.

I haven't ignored you. I'm simply recognizing that if the Healing part that Scrapper provided was too much for Anet, it is ALSO AT LEAST the same level of too much on EVERY OTHER Engi spec because the healing toolset is COMPLETELY contained in the core Engi toolset. 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I haven't ignored you. I'm simply recognizing that if the Healing part that Scrapper provided was too much for Anet, it is ALSO AT LEAST the same level of too much on EVERY OTHER Engi spec because the healing toolset is COMPLETELY contained in the core Engi toolset. 

 

I mean, you just did it again. Seems pointless to keep explaining if you're just going to keep saying the same thing with addressing my point at all.

 

But anyways, at this point I just hope that since they can clearly make changes to core traits and abilities based on what elite spec is equipped, that they continue this practice going forward and don't continue nerfing core Engineer to fix its elite specs.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

I mean, you just did it again. Seems pointless to keep explaining if you're just going to keep saying the same thing with addressing my point at all.

 

But anyways, at this point I just hope that since they can clearly make changes to core traits and abilities based on what elite spec is equipped, that they continue this practice going forward and don't continue nerfing core Engineer to fix its elite specs.

I get your point ... I just don't see how it would change what Anet did. Just because Anet recognized the healing on Scrapper is too much shouldn't lead you to think that the changes they made for healing weren't appropriate for the WHOLE engi class. They absolutely WERE because the core healing toolset that is too much on Scrapper is ALSO too much on EVERY OTHER engi spec. 

They COULD have done some kind of split on the healing features specific to Scrapper. I don't see why they would have done that. You have some hangup about how they determined this healing nerf because of it's use on Scrapper. Considering the toolset is completely contained in core engi, I have no reason to think it would have been a different if it was Heal Holosmith or Mechanist, or whatever because the scenario would have been the same.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I get your point ... I just don't see how it would change what Anet did. Just because Anet recognized the healing on Scrapper is too much shouldn't lead you to think that the changes they made for healing weren't appropriate for the WHOLE engi class. They absolutely WERE because the core healing toolset that is too much on Scrapper is ALSO too much on EVERY OTHER engi spec. 

Then you did not get my point, because my point was that Anet stated they nerfed Scrapper's healing, superspeed, quickness, and condition conversion, because when combined together in a single spec it was too much. Core Engineer does not combine all of those together in a single spec, yet still received the same nerfs to healing and condi conversion.