"We see healing and cleanse as the main pieces of scrapper's support identity" Really?

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Then you did not get my point, because my point was that Anet stated they nerfed Scrapper's healing, superspeed, quickness, and condition conversion, because when combined together in a single spec it was too much. Core Engineer does not combine all of those together in a single spec, yet still received the same nerfs to healing and condi conversion.

I don't see a problem with that:

1. In a practical sense, it was significantly unlikely people were playing core engi healer instead of Scrapper anyways. 

2. You assumed Anet didn't consider the effects on other especs just because they didn't expand the patch notes to include them. 

So, yes I did read what you said because I'm repeating myself here to reply to you. You're basically lawyering up here because Anet didn't explain their actions from every perspective possible. I don't think it's a stretch here to conclude that if Anet globally nerfed the healing features on Engi because of how they see Scrapper performing, they would have seen the same thing on other especs as well, even if they are played much less. 

You're complaining the change affects builds that practically no one is using. It's not compelling. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

1. In a practical sense, it was significantly unlikely people were playing core engi healer instead of Scrapper anyways.

Most likely due to the constant nerfs core Engineer received due to elite specs. And again, they made the effort to not nerf Guardian despite everyone playing Firebrand for support.

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

2. You assumed Anet didn't consider the effects on other especs just because they didn't expand the patch notes to include them. 

Just as you assume that they did. My assumptions, however, are based on their track record up to this point. 

 

32 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't think it's a stretch here to conclude that if Anet globally nerfed the healing features on Engi because of how they see Scrapper performing, they would have seen the same thing on other especs as well, even if they are played much less. 

No, you're right, it is not a stretch to assume that. I would hope that to be true. But given how core Engineer has suffered in the past due to similar nerfs aimed at elite specs, it is far more likely that this nerf was applied without any consideration at all to the core or elite specs. That is how they have done things up to this point, I see no reason to believe this is any different based on the reasoning they provided.

34 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You're complaining the change affects builds that practically no one is using. It's not compelling. 

And again, no one uses it because things like this have been happening for years now and it has put core Engineer in a bad spot. Trying to justify a nerf to core Engineer on the basis of "No one plays it anways, who cares" is pretty ridiculous. Your argument is that either this was a calculated decision by Anet and that they considered the impact on core Engineer, or that Anet completely overlooked core Engineer and nerfed them as collateral damage but it is ok because core Engineer sucks anyways.

[Obtena.7952]

It's simple: you aren't going to make a compelling argument that the change is bad because it negatively affects a likely VERY small percent of players that are using non-Scrapper support/heal builds in WvW who likely don't care about maximizing their support/heal capabilities anyways.

It also doesn't make sense to ignore the idea that if a 100% self-contained core engi healing setup is identified on Scrapper as too much, it's going to be at least too much on other builds, even if those other builds don't have the same toolset as Scrapper. Scrapper toolset was nerfed across the board for all the features that were too much on it, so you can't conclude the nerf to the heal portion was inappropriate because of the whole package Scrapper delivered. It's simply that Anet sees Scrapper in their data because that's what is played. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Shaogin.2679]

51 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

And as i said previously it opens up Anticorrosion Plate. It's not akin to FB or scourge when one trait didn't impact most spec but one. Here it all comes from Core so when 2 of your class's e-specs end up being good healing, cleanse and boon support, i don't see why Core couldn't be nerfed. It's the right choice and core won't be preserved if it impacts too greatly 2 potential e-specs.

 

I never really felt the two traits competed. Each one has its purpose. You take MDF for more heals and AP for more cleanses. If you don't need the extra cleansing, you will still continue to take MDF. Also, Mechanist doesn't benefit as much from MDF as Scrapper and the other specs since you lose the Medkit F1, which was a pretty nice AoE burst heal. And the extra support Mechanist does gain in exchange for losing that F1 heal is in the form of barriers, which do not have an affect with MDF. So while MDF is still useful on Mechanist, it is not quite on the same level as Scrapper. 

 

But, if they were indeed concerned about MDF usage on Mechanist then yeah, it would be easier to nerf core Engi than to create splits for both Mechanist and Scrapper. I just hope that at some point going forward they have plans to help core Engineer out. I mean, they decided core Guardian needed buffs in PvP, so hopefully they look at the current state of other core professions as well.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Shaogin.2679]

14 hours ago, Acyk.9671 said:

The difference is Core Guard and Core necro for example bring really different gameplay to the class, maybe because of WvW. No other class is like this and even if trade offs can increase the uniqueness between every spec, you won't be able to achieve the same result without a real rework. To be frank it looks like so much work, I would rather they don't dive into that pit-hole.

Core Necro is about the only core class with a drastic difference between core and elite specs due to shroud mechanics if you want to look at it like that. Core Guardian is no more special than any other core build, and the reason why many core builds are currently so bad is do to the nerfs they received at the hands of the elite specs. Core professions should definitely not be overlooked and would be a great way to increase build diversity. It may be a lot of work, it may not be, we honestly have no idea. But the core professions are part of the game and as such should not be abandoned and further destroyed as collateral damage.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Shaogin.2679]

3 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

Mine is if 2 e-specs can be used as full support but core traits push us toward playing them in the same way, then core must be nerfed.

This nerf was aimed at Scrapper providing too much support utility on a single build in WvW. This was not a simple issue of Scrapper heals too much. It was the combined issue of the Scrapper providing high sustained healing and great condi cleanse/conversion and AoE quickness and Aoe super speed among other things.

10 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

The most proficient as a heal should play heal and the one most proficient at boon sharing should focus on that.

The two support builds play differently, they change the way support Engineer is played and what it provides the same way that dps builds on elite specs modify core dps builds. Most notably, one support build is a quickness support while the other is an alacrity support. Both can exist without an issue.

11 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

Core guard design might not appear different but it provides enough of a different gameplay from other E-spec to be noticed.

Guardian is one of the main classes I play, so I am not basing my opinion off of appearances. Core Guardian is not some unique flower among core classes. All core classes provide enough of a different gameplay from their elite specs to be noticed. Not all of them have been as pampered as Guardian, but they all have value. It is also worth noting than when new players try the game on a free account, core professions are what they are playing. When a free player is making the decision to purchase the game and continue playing or not, part of that decision is based off the core professions and gameplay that they have access to. Again, core professions are part of the game and should not be abandoned.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Shaogin.2679]

So anyways, now that the brick walls have given up...

 

All we can do is hope that Anet works on some core changes to the less favored classes at some point.

[Jski.6180]

As long as kits are just as strong as they are they will comply override any roll an elite spec for eng. Its like having an atument swap that you can take on every eng class.

Scraper should be a "hammer" class. It seems anet thinks if your class gets a 2h wepon that elite spec is an "wepon" class. Take catalyses for an example the high use of its hammer 3 to the roll of the class over all.

 

[Shaogin.2679]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

As long as kits are just as strong as they are they will comply override any roll an elite spec for eng. Its like having an atument swap that you can take on every eng class.

Scraper should be a "hammer" class. It seems anet thinks if your class gets a 2h wepon that elite spec is an "wepon" class. Take catalyses for an example the high use of its hammer 3 to the roll of the class over all.

 

I would really like to see turrets and kits reworked overall. Turrets would be better off as a skill that you activate, it does its thing, then it detonates. Then cooldowns, damage, and effects could be balanced off of that. Kits should fall into more of a purity of purpose setup. The reason why we used to take so many kits (Holosmith has helped with power builds and Mechanist with condi builds) is because we had various hard hitting important skills spread out across multiple kits no matter whether you were going for power or condi damage. Now if this extreme kit juggling had some sort of high payoff, it would not of been that bad, but it didn't. So it would be nice if kits would focus on a specific role and stick with that one role.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Shaogin.2679

[The Boz.2038]

Turrets with a 10ish second duration really gels with me. Kits with ammo/cooldowns, too.