Anet Fix that Condi kitten

[subversiontwo.7501]

On 5/3/2022 at 4:26 PM, Reborn.2934 said:

During 2022 WvW Roamers are still Blaming the Armor Stats instead of... Skills and Traits!

 

On 5/3/2022 at 5:36 PM, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Because cele got massive undeserved buffs. It was balanced before. Now it isn't anymore. Doesn't mean it is the only thing contributing to imbalance, but it certainly is a big factor.

When Anet made the change they came out and said that the gear was barely used before. Now, I wouldn't say that is entirely accurate as I used it before myself and as always popularity should not be confused with power. However, claiming it was balanced before is completely contradictory to what Anet said to motivate the change. There was not a single highly rated Cele build that I can remember. So it was useful on some things but certainly not seen as strong.

With that said, I think Reborn's link can't be understated. In almost every topic where Cele or Condi has come up I've said the same things. The most simple litmus test is to ask oneself if Cele is too good across every class and spec. It is important to distinguish between good and too good when asking yourself that. If it is too good on a more limited set of examples that would suggest that this has less to do with stats than class mechanics and traits.

Popular Cele builds

For example, I think most people would agree with you that Cele builds of Nade Scrappers, Nade Mechs, Core Necros, Catalysts or Signet Mirages are completely out of whack. However, many of these are classes and specs where boons were not nerfed in/after feb 2020 while on other classes and specs they were. The Signet Mirage is (like some Thief builds) a perfect storm, where traits are linked together in an incredibly fit synergy (which can be debated if that makes it a good- or bad build, but either way it is rather unique to have so much built-in freebies).

The Catalyst is a good example of where Cele is allround useful for the class but where it is rather clearly only ridiculously broken on one-out-of-four specs. Other Ele builds can use Cele but it is more of a broad option and most issues it has sits solely among Catalyst traits and synergies. You have something similar on Necros where the shroud mechanic is so strong on Core while the hybrid damage output is just ridiculous on Harby. It is two different reasons that both rhyme with Cele but has little to do with Cele. So, don't get me wrong, boon-Cata is an absolutely ridiculous build. However, that has little to do with Cele. Plus, sticking with the theme of this thread, on many of these builds where other mechanics is the real issue, Cele is not necessarily more powerful on the same specs than Blazer, Dire or even things like Doctor, Sinister, Grieving or whatever.

Other popular class mechanics

Most things that are considered too good with Cele has additional things beyond the damage or boons that make things ridiculous. For example, many popular Cele builds have barrier and barrier is just a kitten and kitten-balanced mechanic all round that has been allowed to be passive, accessible and scaling to a degree that things like healing never was allowed to be. In fact, another good litmus test is to specifically look at Guards and Eles here because they were largely built around stats like Cele (not Cele itself). Many of these things meant to be good with Cele are their unique class mechanics (their class-wide built-in, their elites, their F2's etc) and you'll find in many cases that other classes simply does that much better and always kind of have. Warriors used to have stronger such mechanics (got nerfed). Rangers used to have stronger such mechanics (got nerfed, still too powerful on certain dedicated builds).

All of that is class balance, not gear balance. I've said this before as well. If they want to nerf or even delete Cele that doesn't really change that they have some fundamental class design and balance issues to deal with. It feels like reminiscing about the "good old zerk days" mainly comes from Thief and Warrior players that used to be leaps and bounds above everything else on those stats. Making those stats more common would also be subject to class balance. Not just making the old kings of roaming still the kings of roaming under some sort of pretense that better "skilled" players just happened to pick those classes and ignoring that stealth single-handedly enable those stats or having zero tank stats works on a class with like 1k free stats built into it 😄 .

So whether Cele stays or goes, Anet has a task ahead of both balancing classes and digging down to look at the fundamental design of them because what they were built around needs to be reflected in overall balance/context.

Edited May 4, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Jarwan.8263]

The best offence is a better defense - Anet Balance Devs

 

 its incredibly sad that the lens in which they view this mode is tainted by their inability to play competently in their own game.

cause otherwise after reading the last several balance patches i'd have left with some of kind of understanding to their overall aim instead of pissing every core pvp player off

 

1 hour ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

 

When Anet made the change they came out and said that the gear was barely used before. 

exactly... statements like those has me question how exotic the herbs they smoke are

 

i'm sure their conclusion was scribbled from a pve pie chart that had wvw in small prints underneath it without really taking into account the delicate interactions stats/ skills/traits have with each other against other players who don't utilize them, or if they do.. mostly go for the lazy options cause its available..

balance is an ongoing cycle that shouldn't take 6months + for minor changes..

Edited May 4, 2022 by Jarwan.8263