[Suggestions ] Just listen to this guy

[Erise.5614]

9 hours ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

You know FF is more casual then the former king of mmos right? 

Also a free MMO shouldn't be mocking a sub game with 700k when it has 300k.

Comparing these numbers is misleading.

700k subscriptions is not the same as 300k daily active users. Also according to ANet, GW2 also has ~1.5 million monthly active users. All three numbers have issues which is why they can't be compared in a meaningful way.

There are gonna be dead subscriptions running and people barely playing. GW2 is gonna have alts logging in and people who give the game a try and leave forever after an hour or two.

9 hours ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

Your right casuals are the answer to huge sales which is why Elden Ring was one of the most successful openworld games ever made outside of GTA.

Catering to casual / non hardcore players isn't just talking about keeping difficulty low.

It's about a good progression curve and keeping players in the flow. Dark Souls / Elden Ring is excellent at that and a big reason why difficult games have become mainstream. They are incredibly fair. Failure is your own fault. They give excellent feedback about your performance and ramp up difficulty at a pace most players are comfortable with. Without feeling easy for experienced players. Which is truly an incredible feat of design work.

To pick up the FF example. It's also worth mentioning that FF has significantly better group finders, a better intro progression into group content and a more strongly defined meta. Deliberately outlined and reinforced by the devs by giving DPS bonus to the correct group composition.

These three choices make the onboarding experience much more convenient while also making it more convenient to experienced players to keep playing it.

Despite understanding raids and raid CMs, I can not commit to statics as there is no time in the week I can commit to. LFG is a gamble whether you'll find a group or have to wait hours, constantly keeping it open until you find a group who'll take you with. And, at least in my experience, most of them don't even complete the wing. When in the mood with a team of about equal skill (not just high, equal to my own) it can be extremely enjoyable. And still, I'll probably never set a foot into raids again since I've completed envoy 2. Just because of how meta and LFG works in GW2. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[SlayerXX.7138]

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I don't think i do. I remember at some points devs let slip how big percentage of active players ever played SPvP or WvW, and it was somewhere around 10% (and notice, how some of those players were PvE players that just visited the PvP content once or twice but weren't really interested in it). There was no such info about instanced content, but i doubt it's much higher than that.

With the introduction of Strikes i think its way higher. Groups fill in under a minute at peak times. But i guess i overestimated how popular WvW is. Which is so weird as that should a selling features of the game but apparently not.

 

On 5/7/2022 at 12:32 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Rewards that are placed in content most players are not (and will not be) interested in, do not fulfill that function.

Yeah that seems to be the case for the GW2 players base. I asked in a new Threat how people play the game. I´m surprised how many people are content with just farming. I guess i was wrong. Personal bias got the better of me on that one.

 

On 5/7/2022 at 12:32 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

First, being "mediocre" is not a "fault". It is a choice. It's like telling aa crowd of people playing basketball in their home yard that them not being a league tier players is their "fault". It is not, because being sportsmen was never their aspiration in the first place. So, you are already expecting players to follow in your own footsteps and value things you value even when they do not care about it. And them having a different views on those you consider to be a "fault". So, yes, you already do think they should become more hardcore, you just don't see it.

I agree it is their choice. Their  choice to not try so its their fault they are still perform mediocre. The metaphor is a little bit unfair. Strikes are not league tier play. It is just getting sweaty while playing ball. I opened group where people didn't know whisper mechanics, did type out mechanics  and we succeeded.

 

On 5/7/2022 at 12:32 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

But if you decide to do a basketball tournament, and invite home yard players into it, you should not expect them to play on professional level. And you should not try to blame/disparage them if they'll play at the level they always do.

I don't expect them do perform on a professional level. Just to get sweaty . That cant be to much do ask. Being bad is fine. 

I´m bad at many things. Sports for example. Me not being fast enough is me being bad and that is fine. But me halve jogging over the field is me not trying and my teammates would be understandable pissed at me.

 

Looking at the forum you guys might be right on one point. Maybe we could kill all challenging content in the game and gw 2 would survive. Put everything behind collection, Masteries and a gold price. Not more pressure to challenge yourself. Let everything but OW and Story wither and die.

 

Seems like I was wrong.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Looking at the forum you guys might be right on one point. Maybe we could kill all challenging content in the game and gw 2 would survive. Put everything behind collection, Masteries and a gold price. Not more pressure to challenge yourself. Let everything but OW and Story wither and die.

There's no need for that. Anet just should stop trying to push higher requirement content at majority of playerbase. They should acknowledge that there is a separation within PvE playerbase, and design the content for those different group of players separately, without trying to mix them together in one place. Because that's never worked well in the past, and will likely never work well in the future.

And if Anet devs do really want players to improve, they should do that not by pushing higher and higher requirements on playerbase, but by changing the game systems in such a way average players would be capable of learning them easier. Unless improvement will be someting that will naturally come to players as they keep playing different types of content, most of the players will just never improve beyond a certain point.

[Erise.5614]

32 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Looking at the forum you guys might be right on one point. Maybe we could kill all challenging content in the game and gw 2 would survive. Put everything behind collection, Masteries and a gold price. Not more pressure to challenge yourself. Let everything but OW and Story wither and die.

 

Seems like I was wrong.

There's no need for extremes either way. There's more than two options. 

Yes, I am fairly sure none of the sweaty modes carry the games popularity.

The way you enjoy the game isn't the only one. But it's not irrelevant either. There is a population who enjoy those and the game can satisfy those demands very well without overcommitting dev or financial resources into it. Strikes are a good way for PvE. A better match system for WvW is good. Maybe turtle or cross adding content into WvW could be nice too. Not expending huge efforts that go exclusively into those modes. But supporting it. 

Really, the key point I've been trying to advocate for is choice. In all aspects. For and against this style of content. So everyone gets to play the pieces they enjoy while progressing at a valid pace. 

Choice is good.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[SlayerXX.7138]

57 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's no need for that. Anet just should stop trying to push higher requirement content at majority of playerbase.

How to get in Strikes a guide by me:

Look if shiverrpeaks strike is daily. Log in if yes. Open/join group. Besides on reset day no one is gonna ask for KI/LI. Wait 0-5 mins. Fight the golem. Win. GZ. You are into strikes now. All the following IBS strikes are in order of reasonable ascending difficulty. Besides the fact we don't have an LFG acronym spreadsheet, it couldn't be easier.

 

And that seems to be to much for to many people. People want the rewards with an easier way then that. The only conclusion I can draw from it is: Challenging content is going to die.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Albi.7250

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:16 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Nerds should learn, most ppl (aka casuals) aren't subscribed into a race to seem who look more smart on a online game....

If you play soccer with your mates and don't want to run at the ball that it isn't playing a game it is just spectating.

 

"Some people aren't even able to pull their own weight in (even the easier) open world content - flatout refusing to learn the most basic game mechanics."

On 5/7/2022 at 2:16 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

for the sake of what? when? "god" will punish me?

That does read like someone who never participated in a team sport ever.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Astralporing.1957]

41 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

How to get in Strikes a guide by me:

Look if shiverrpeaks strike is daily. Log in if yes. Open/join group. Besides on reset day no one is gonna ask for KI/LI. Wait 0-5 mins. Fight the golem. Win. GZ. You are into strikes now. All the following IBS strikes are in order of reasonable ascending difficulty. Besides the fact we don't have an LFG acronym spreadsheet, it couldn't be easier.

If you haven;t noticed. IBS strikes are decently popular. The easy 3 (shiverpeaks, kodans, fraenir), that is. WoJ and BS popularity however is suddenly way, way lower than that. Why that is? It's because the difficulty and participation "curve" is not a curve. It's more like a series of "steps" - participation is pretty much linear until it gets to a certain difficulty breakpoint, at which it drops suddenly, and stabilizes at new, much lower level, which lasts until a next breakpoint. And so it happens that apparently one of those breakpoinst is somewhere in-between the "easy 3" and Woj/Boneskinner difficulty.

Most players generally do not gradually improve. They reach certain point at which they pretty much stop. And if they meet a content that requires anything more, they just avoid it. Or go in, ignoring those requirements.

41 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

And that seems to be to much for to many people. People want the rewards with an easier way then that. The only conclusion I can draw from it is: Challenging content is going to die.

See above. And yes, if there's not enough people able to play at a certain level of difficulty, a content requiring such difficulty will eventually die off. Pushing more players towards that content will not work here, because it does not make them improve at all. It just requires more of them than they are willing to give. The only way to change that is to somehow change the game in such a way that the self-improving becomes more natural to players, and becomes a more gradual process (instead of the current "zero to hero" system). In order for the most players to become more interested in challenging content, the gap between top and average needs to get much smaller than it is now first. And that cannot be done just through introducing new content, it can only be done through changes to core game systems.

[Dante.1508]

On 5/6/2022 at 12:18 PM, Linken.6345 said:

Ah so in your oppinion Anet should stop developing more open world and instead do more content spvp, wvw, fractals and raids.

Since everyone deserves an equal share right?

And all of those have had less of the cake then open world over the years.

Yes they should have development crews for all aspects, different groups for different content, its not like they aren't pulling in millions of dollars, they could fund thousands of Devs if they wanted to.

On 5/6/2022 at 5:03 PM, Raizel.8175 said:

Neither do I believe that I'm better than other nor do I believe that certain content should be favored one-sidedly - which it currently does by the way: The main focus lies on open world gameplay. It doesn't only get the most content, it also gets the most profitable content in a game in which gold is so brokenly powerful. I mean, I don't really play WvW much, but is it okay that these people are waiting for 4 (?) years by now for their Alliance feature and haven't had any other update since? That leaves us with one conclusion though: It's okay to harm the game as long as you've paid for it?

Read above.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Erise.5614]

28 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Most players generally do not gradually improve. They reach certain point at which they pretty much stop. And if they meet a content that requires anything more, they just avoid it. Or go in, ignoring those requirements.

Just to point that out. This is not an inherent thing in game design. 

This is usually a sign that players do not understand how to progress and feel like the increase in difficulty is too steep. 

I've had some pretty good feedback running the EoD strikes with hscg. Carrying people through their turtle. Not dying and having room to fail without wiping the team seems to have a serious effect and a bunch of people ask to run again, run the other strikes, etc.

It appears to me that the culture that is created by raids and the LFG format, alongside the lack of personal performance feedback, is causing most problems with those modes. It's not always and inevitably unpopular. 

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If you haven;t noticed. IBS strikes are decently popular. The easy 3 (shiverpeaks, kodans, fraenir), that is. WoJ and BS popularity however is suddenly way, way lower than that. Why that is?

People can carry lower Dps. People cant carry someone killing the group with chains. And they are still popular. Less but not way less. Chains are only complicated at the start you have to figure it out once.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Most players generally do not gradually improve. They reach certain point at which they pretty much stop. And if they meet a content that requires anything more, they just avoid it. Or go in, ignoring those requirements.

Most humans generally do gradually improve if they engage in any activity. If you are an able bodied person and your game aint lagging WOJ shouldn't be the breaking point. The only thing stopping people is their mindset.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The only way to change that is to somehow change the game in such a way that the self-improving becomes more natural to players, and becomes a more gradual process (instead of the current "zero to hero" system). In order for the most players to become more interested in challenging content, the gap between top and average needs to get much smaller than it is now first.

Yeah like strikes in ascending order of difficulty. Kodans-> WOJ is a reasonable step. And as long as someone isn´t missing an arm the only thing stopping people from making it is their unwillingness to try. Like i said before i  write out the mechanics for a new guy in squad chat and he just did it. First TRY.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

In order for the most players to become more interested in challenging content, the gap between top and average needs to get much smaller than it is now first. And that cannot be done just through introducing new content, it can only be done through changes to core game systems.

But the player apparently don't want that. I got convinced by that. Some guy defending leeching got 12 upvotesXD.

It doesn't get any lower then shiverpeaks. And the game already lets you do insane stuff with simple builds. Besides removing dodging i dont know what you gonna do to simplify it more.

 

Dude I already folded. Just invalidate more rewards from challenging content by making them easy to get. Support the challenging modes even less. Let them wither and die and the game will still live on.

 

The game cultivated a player base which is avert to challenge. Which is fine. I folded. The game will be fine. Pulling the last challenge exclusive rewards out of these modes will maybe hurt that particular endgame content but not the game overall.

But pls don't tell me Kodans->WOJ is a unreasonable big step that normal people cant overcome even if they tried. I refuse to believe that.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Just to point that out. This is not an inherent thing in game design. 

No, it is inherent to gw2 game design.

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

This is usually a sign that players do not understand how to progress and feel like the increase in difficulty is too steep. 

Yes, precisely. It's  a byproduct of a design that made the whole gearing/build system complicated to the degree most players just get lost when trying to use it.

Most players in gw2, on their own, are pretty much incapable of understanding the complexity of the gearing/build system. Which means, most players in GW2 are incapable of improving beyons some very initial point without help from third-party sources. At the same time most players improve on their own, without reaching for help from said third-party sources.

This means, most players in gw2 are flat out unable to improve beyond a certain point (which generally lies very, very low). So, yes, when they are met with content that assumes people have improved beyond that level, they will feel the increase in difficulty is too much.

The problem lies not with lack of gradual increases in difficulty throughout the available content, but with increases with skill/core systems understanding not being gradual at all.

 

[Erise.5614]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No, it is inherent to gw2 game design.

Yes, precisely. It's  a byproduct of a design that made the whole gearing/build system complicated to the degree most players just get lost when trying to use it.

Most players in gw2, on their own, are pretty much incapable of understanding the complexity of the gearing/build system. Which means, most players in GW2 are incapable of improving beyons some very initial point without help from third-party sources. At the same time most players improve on their own, without reaching for help from said third-party sources.

This means, most players in gw2 are flat out unable to improve beyond a certain point (which generally lies very, very low). So, yes, when they are met with content that assumes people have improved beyond that level, they will feel the increase in difficulty is too much.

The problem lies not with lack of gradual increases in difficulty throughout the available content, but with increases with skill/core systems understanding not being gradual at all.

 

Yes. Exactly. I mean, whether you call it difficulty or understanding of core systems is semantics.

The point is, it's not an inherent thing and can be solved. Getting people to engage with the system and properly understand it is the part of the progression curve that's not smooth at all. You can read what everything does, but understanding how everything comes together is not very clear. ANet can work on that. As they have with defiance this expansion. 

However, it can not be solved by simply increasing rewards. And it won't be a sudden shift either where immediately everyone understands everything. I suspect we'll see most results of defiance changes throughout the first year after EoD release. If people actually engage with Cantha. More of that can, very slowly, help more players get to the point where they get over that bump and feel comfortable in more challenging content.

[Raizel.8175]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:16 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

for the sake of what? when? "god" will punish me?

That answer is incredibly selfish. Even though most MMORPGs nowadays are incredibly solo player friendly, MMORPGs are still a multiplayer experience. That means that by being part of the community, just like in every other aspect of life, you sign a social contract with said community. You should be able to pull your own weight or at least try to. That's commonly called "basic human decency". If everyone would just not bother with fundamental game mechanics, we'd probably still fail events like Chak Gerent - or at least would only finish said example on the third and last DPS phase.

On 5/7/2022 at 2:16 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Problem for who?

It's a problem for the overall game and the game developers. If the majority of your players won't bother with fundamental game mechanics, what can you possibly do with the game? You'd have to design every single part of the game in an autopilot friendly way. That in turn would drain the fun out of the game since such gameplay design simply isn't engaging. It would further lead to a fragmentation of the playerbase and dead content - a problem which we already have since we arguably have too many open world maps. Just try doing Return to achievements or Aurora/Vision collection nowadays. Sure, it's okay during prime time, but if you don't play and try to finish these collections/achievements during prime time, these maps don't really feel like you're playing a MMORPG.

On 5/7/2022 at 2:16 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Anet is "insanely limited" by other things.

Which would be? Engine, development team, funding? Is that any excuse why the lowest common denominator should limit Arena Net any further in game design?

On 5/7/2022 at 2:16 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Right direction for what?

For a decent gameplay and difficulty progression which is long overdue. I'd say we have a very good difficulty curve for PvE content now starting in core Tyria, growing in the expansions up to EoD, then fractals and strike missions and lastly raids.

On 5/7/2022 at 2:16 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Nerds should learn, most ppl (aka casuals) aren't subscribed into a race to seem who look more smart on a online game....

im curios about who, when or what will throw itself into abyss because GW2 ins't a "hard game"....,

You apparently still don't want to understand that this isn't about participating in a "race" but about fundamental game mechanics which would enable players to do decently well in open world content and take part in every kind of content the game offers - taking part in raids pp. is their choice, but the game itself should actually force them to be prepared for its content.

On 5/7/2022 at 2:51 PM, Erise.5614 said:

And it can not possibly be their fault.

It can, though? Like I've said: This is a MMORPG - a multiplayer experience. People should have some basic human decency to not be a burden to other players - or at least try to not be a burden by trying to learn fundamental game mechanics.

On 5/7/2022 at 2:51 PM, Erise.5614 said:

There is no reason to keep playing besides being entertained. Besides enjoying your time with the game.

Yes, people should enjoy the game. In a multiplayer experience, that also means that you need to know the games basic rules though if you don't want to grief other players and have fun on their costs.

On 5/7/2022 at 2:51 PM, Erise.5614 said:

However, you can't expect quick changes and antagonizing the players you want to convert certainly isn't constructive towards that goal.

I don't want to convert anyone. I just want people to know about fundamental game mechanics. I admit that I may antagonize a certain part of the community. The thing is though that said part of the community is rather malicious and simply doesn't want to compromise on anything.

23 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

its pretty obvious, that most people didnt want to learn the advanced tactics.

This isn't about "advanced tactics", it's about fundamental game mechanics. If this is already too much, then people probably don't really want to play the game properly to begin with.

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

It can, though? Like I've said: This is a MMORPG - a multiplayer experience. People should have some basic human decency to not be a burden to other players - or at least try to not be a burden by trying to learn fundamental game mechanics.

That's exactly what they do. That's what I did.

By avoiding all content where that could be the case entirely.

Because the way towards learning was so hard to understand. Like, a few years back I didn't even know what knowledge I could possibly be missing. The game is extremely bad about communicating that.

The LFG puts you into situations where it's awkward and feels bad to say you don't know anything. Dialing social anxiety up to 11.

It's not a good environment to convert unaware players into people who understand the combat system. 

5 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

I don't want to convert anyone. I just want people to know about fundamental game mechanics. I admit that I may antagonize a certain part of the community. The thing is though that said part of the community is rather malicious and simply doesn't want to compromise on anything.

Converting, in this case, means having them learn everything you deem necessary and fundamental.

These players aren't malicious or spiteful. They are unaware and therefore have extremely negative experiences in the harder kinds of content. So they avoid it.

Either the game has to get better at teaching them step by step how everything affects everything else and how the combat system works. Or the community has to step up where ANet fell short. Or it's just not their fault. 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Raizel.8175]

6 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

To pick up the FF example. It's also worth mentioning that FF has significantly better group finders, a better intro progression into group content and a more strongly defined meta. Deliberately outlined and reinforced by the devs by giving DPS bonus to the correct group composition.

These three choices make the onboarding experience much more convenient while also making it more convenient to experienced players to keep playing it.

True, but - coming back to the main topic of this thread - Teapot also discussed how that onboarding experience could be improved in GW2. Instead of giving feedback though, he gets kitten for being some sort of toxic hardcore elitist. People even outright insult him in this thread. How's that fair?

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's no need for that. Anet just should stop trying to push higher requirement content at majority of playerbase. They should acknowledge that there is a separation within PvE playerbase, and design the content for those different group of players separately, without trying to mix them together in one place. Because that's never worked well in the past, and will likely never work well in the future.

No, they shouldn't. That would fragment the playerbase even further. It's perfectly fine to have some more involved open world content like DE which is - in its current iteration - a well-balanced compromise between casual and hardcore gameplay. The reason why it didn't work well in the past was because Arena Net very quickly gave in into outrage. Eater of Souls (PoF storyline) for example wasn't difficult. It just needed people to read their skills and somewhat get out of their very cozy comfort zone.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

This is usually a sign that players do not understand how to progress and feel like the increase in difficulty is too steep. 

[...]

It appears to me that the culture that is created by raids and the LFG format, alongside the lack of personal performance feedback, is causing most problems with those modes. It's not always and inevitably unpopular.

No offense intended, but posts like these always paint a very dark picture of what people think is the "casual" player. The people playing this game are predominantly able bodied adults. As such, you should be able to expect some kind of self-suffiency and individual responsibility. They wouldn't have gotten through life otherwise. I do admit that the game should be reasonably structured - there indeed is some system clutter/bloat in GW2 that needs to be adressed -, but I don't see any problem with people looking up stuff on their own. We're not in the 90s anymore where you had to buy strategy guides for certain games after all. The game doesn't need to hold a players hand at every step. That's simply not how modern gaming works.

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

The game cultivated a player base which is avert to challenge. Which is fine. I folded. The game will be fine. Pulling the last challenge exclusive rewards out of these modes will maybe hurt that particular endgame content but not the game overall.

I highly doubt that the game will be fine if the more challenging content dies. If every hardcore or semi-hardcore player would leave the game, content creation for GW2 will die. People who didn't want to interact with fundamental game mechanics will fail even the easiest meta events because they aren't being carried anymore. The game will turn from one of the most popular MMORPGs to a niche game. It may survive, but at what cost?

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Most players in gw2, on their own, are pretty much incapable of understanding the complexity of the gearing/build system. Which means, most players in GW2 are incapable of improving beyons some very initial point without help from third-party sources. At the same time most players improve on their own, without reaching for help from said third-party sources.

Refer to paragraph 3 of this post. This sounds very insulting to me. Like I've said, the majority of the playerbase consists of able bodied adults. It's perfectly reasonable to expect some form of self-suffiency and individual responsibility from these players. You do have your typical RPG stats in GW2 and the build system also isn't all that complex. People also have the internet. It almost sounds like the solution to all problems would be telling people to use the brain they haven't used thus far.

[Raizel.8175]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

The LFG puts you into situations where it's awkward and feels bad to say you don't know anything. Dialing social anxiety up to 11.

I know that social anxiety is an issue - but probably only for a minority of the playerbase. People are playing a MMORPG which should be inherently social. You aren't an island. You can ask people or - if you don't want to - at least ask "uncle Google".

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's not a good environment to convert unaware players into people who understand the combat system. 

Some of the more hardcore farming communities which do meta trains also do instanced content. People can - and do, btw - ask people about game mechanics on these occasions. People just have to ask - even if that means that the mere act of asking is going out of their comfort zone.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Converting, in this case, means having them learn everything you deem necessary and fundamental.

It's not what I deem fundamental. CC, reading traits and skills, dodging pp. is fundamental.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

These players aren't malicious or spiteful. They are unaware and therefore have extremely negative experiences in the harder kinds of content. So they avoid it.

I'm not talking about the general "casual" playerbase. I'm talking about these toxic forum people who claim to be casual and refuse any compromise between hardcore and casual. The people who downright insult people like Teapot instead of having a constructive discussion. Real casual people don't even read this forum to begin with and just play the game.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Or the community has to step up where ANet fell short.

The community already does - and quite excessively so with projects like the wiki, several builds sites like metabattle, guides and content on youtube or tools like arcdps, gw2efficiency etc. pp.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Raizel.8175

[Erise.5614]

49 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

We're not in the 90s anymore where you had to buy strategy guides for certain games after all. The game doesn't need to hold a players hand at every step. That's simply not how modern gaming works.

That argument didn't make it far past the 90s though. It sounds stuck in the 00s. 

Because yes. Game design has indeed evolved since then! From having to buy guide bucks into text walls and massive amounts of tooltip shenanigans, then into spelling everything out explicitly and finally into teaching through gameplay with as little text or external sources necessary as possible.

Not holding the players hand. Making everyone feel like they are improving and figuring out everything themselves. But designed deliberately to make learning as convenient and enjoyable as possible. 

29 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

I know that social anxiety is an issue - but probably only for a minority of the playerbase. People are playing a MMORPG which should be inherently social. You aren't an island. You can ask people or - if you don't want to - at least ask "uncle Google".

I am talking about social anxiety. Not social anxiety disorder. It basically means being uncomfortable in a specific social setting. Being pushed into a social setting that is too far out of their comfort zone. 

It is entirely possible they are running weekly guild missions with their friends, playing WvW and do all kinds of social activity. But don't feel comfortable with trying out raids due to social anxiety. Because they are afraid to be called names. To have others call them leeches and what not.

Because that's the precise behavior displayed by people such as Teapot or even yourself. So that's not an unreasonable expectation to have at all. And it does happen quite a bit. That people are passive aggressive or calling out people in a derogatory manner. 

29 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Some of the more hardcore farming communities which do meta trains also do instanced content. People can - and do, btw - ask people about game mechanics on these occasions. People just have to ask - even if that means that the mere act of asking is going out of their comfort zone.

I never claimed otherwise!? Heck, I regularly get people into fractals and strikes via auric basin as I show up incredibly often, form relationships via map chat and then go teach people stuff.

But I also spend a lot of time explaining, playing extremely protective supports and taking over the entire work on LFG. As that's often what kept them away. I spend deliberate effort making them feel like they are contributing and that it's no big deal.

29 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

It's not what I deem fundamental. CC, reading traits and skills, dodging pp. is fundamental.

It's fundamental to performing well in hardcore content. It's not fundamental to playing the game. That's what people such as yourself keep complaining about, remember? 

29 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

I'm not talking about the general "casual" playerbase. I'm talking about these toxic forum people who claim to be casual and refuse any compromise between hardcore and casual. Real casual people don't even read this forum to begin with and just play the game.

Then I fail to see the context to my statement? I was calling you out as antagonistic. Because you were blanket calling people who do not know what you deem fundamental "unwilling to learn" and toxic. 

How is calling yet another, unrelated group of people toxic a constructive contribution to the discussion? It just seems unnecessarily negative and confrontational to me. 

29 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

The community already does - and quite excessively so with projects like the wiki, several builds sites like metabattle, guides and content on youtube or tools like arcdps, gw2efficiency etc. pp.

Considering it's still not working out, it seems it doesn't have the impact it would need to solve the problem. 

These people are doing magnificent work. But it doesn't have the effect it would need to have and the experience for inexperienced players ingame is mostly pretty... not good. LFG is not a friendly environment. Raid training guilds are hopelessly under-commanded. Runs fill up in minutes. 

Frankly, I don't believe they can solve the entire problem. Bring everything into a situation where they are happy. It really needs fixes by ANet, in my humble opinion.

But if one wants to make the point that community can solve it, then it's not stepping up enough so far. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

its not like they aren't pulling in millions of dollars, they could fund thousands of Devs if they wanted to.

The average dev salary in their area is in the vicinity of $80,000 per year. The cost to employ multiplier for their area is in the vicinity of x1.3. So thousands of devs (lets say 2000 as 2 is the low end of a plural) would cost 208 million dollars per year....in payroll costs alone. No they couldn't fund thousands of devs if they wanted to.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Luci.7018]

1 hour ago, Raizel.8175 said:

True, but - coming back to the main topic of this thread - Teapot also discussed how that onboarding experience could be improved in GW2. Instead of giving feedback though, he gets kitten for being some sort of toxic hardcore elitist. People even outright insult him in this thread. How's that fair?

 

First of all ,  raiders  should stop using as scapegoat Streamers and the Arenanet for the mesh their are causing .

Raiders  wants Causal  to improve , so they progress in the Raid and save their mode , which is fair .

But  the majority need "more time to kill the boss" and not nerf it's damage/actual mechanics .

Teapot just took an arrow to the knee from the raider vs casual crossfire in the forums and reddit ("git gud" -"no need for 111 content") .

 

Edit: Arenanet i believe where Raiders also , so i don't believe they will stop anytime soon the CM Strikes . What they can do , is seperate us

Edited May 8, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

The amount of mental gymnastics I see people perform in this thread just to justify them not having to improve is both hilarious and frankly, also very sad. 

And luckily  a big contrast with most of the ingame population I have met in the EoD open world, including the DE meta. 

If you feel like listening to a commander, doing more than 7k DPS on a DPS build, and knowing what CC is are things only needed in instanced raid content and not in the open world, I do not know what to say.

 

Because all those things actually make appearances in almost any modern meta event. 

Splitting: We have seen it since Tequatl. 

Killing stuff at the same time: Ever since at least PoF. 

Breakbars: A staple ever since HoT. 

DPS: Tequatl revamp was the first actual open world DPS check back in the day. 

Dodging: Do not stand in bad has been a thing since 2012, with more importance since HoT. 

 

If you consider none of the above essential to open world meta's because you don't know them or don't do them, consider the following: Maybe you succeeded in those meta's NOT because those things aren't needed, but because you got CARRIED by the people who DID know these things.

 

It was always like this, EoD only made it more visible. 

Stepping up has never been easier, especially with the LI builds popping up everywhere for 20k DPS with 1-3 button presses.

 

Most of you are no utter newbies, you had years, some of you 10 years since the Beta, to learn basics. 

It's time.

[Raizel.8175]

11 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's fundamental to performing well in hardcore content. It's not fundamental to playing the game.

No. Reading your own skills and traits, thus knowing what you actually do, is fundamental to the game. Dodging is fundamental to the game - GW2 is an action combat MMORPG after all. Or do you seriously want to tell me that you get through story and open world content by standing "in the bad" all the time? CC and defiance bars are also a fundamental part of the game. You will literally fail certain open world events - even the proverbial loot-pinata in Amnoon - if you don't use CC.

15 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

How is calling yet another, unrelated group of people toxic a constructive contribution to the discussion?

Because said group is a kitten to the overall GW2 community? They don't want to compromise. They insult anyone they regard as "toxic hardcore raider" - no matter how reasonable and compromising that person is - instead of arguing with said person. Just look at all these DE-threads. Even hardcore players have seen that DE needs changes and tried to find a decent compromise. The group I'm talking about though simply wanted the event deleted entirely. They don't want to compromise, they simply want to be "anti" and they constantly derail discussions.

31 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Considering it's still not working out, it seems it doesn't have the impact it would need to solve the problem.

It's not working out because Arena Net was far to generous and folded on every occasion where stuff was a little more difficult. Teaching people that enough outrage will fix the problem by getting it nerfed into oblivion won't make people try to fix problems on their own.

[Luci.7018]

4 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Because all those things actually make appearances in almost any modern meta event. 

Splitting: We have seen it since Tequatl. 

Killing stuff at the same time: Ever since at least PoF. 

Breakbars: A staple ever since HoT. 

DPS: Tequatl revamp was the first actual open world DPS check back in the day. 

Dodging: Do not stand in bad has been a thing since 2012, with more importance since HoT. 

 

If you consider none of the above essential to open world meta's because you don't know them or don't do them, consider the following: Maybe you succeeded in those meta's NOT because those things aren't needed, but because you got CARRIED by the people who DID know these things.

 

Tequatl's poison cloud was killing the group . Not it was the "first actual open world DPS check back in the day"

[Luci.7018]

14 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

 

Because said group is a kitten to the overall GW2 community? They don't want to compromise. They insult anyone they regard as "toxic hardcore raider" - no matter how reasonable and compromising that person is - instead of arguing with said person. Just look at all these DE-threads. Even hardcore players have seen that DE needs changes and tried to find a decent compromise. The group I'm talking about though simply wanted the event deleted entirely. They don't want to compromise, they simply want to be "anti" and they constantly derail discussions.

 

Casuals wanted "more time"(stuck at  20%) to kill the boss , and they were met with "git gud , no need for more 111 metas" from the raiders.

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Erise.5614]

18 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

No. Reading your own skills and traits, thus knowing what you actually do, is fundamental to the game. Dodging is fundamental to the game - GW2 is an action combat MMORPG after all. Or do you seriously want to tell me that you get through story and open world content by standing "in the bad" all the time? CC and defiance bars are also a fundamental part of the game. You will literally fail certain open world events - even the proverbial loot-pinata in Amnoon - if you don't use CC.

So, are you trying to tell me everyone knows all about all of those mechanics?
Or are you suggesting the majority of players don't play the game!?
As far as I can tell, a lot of players play just fine at least without learning how to be combat efficient. A lot try to dodge and stuff. Most who fail that just didn't pay enough attention to the relevant indicators. Maybe because they read the chat, focused on their skill rotation or what not.

18 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Because said group is a kitten to the overall GW2 community? They don't want to compromise. They insult anyone they regard as "toxic hardcore raider" - no matter how reasonable and compromising that person is - instead of arguing with said person. Just look at all these DE-threads. Even hardcore players have seen that DE needs changes and tried to find a decent compromise. The group I'm talking about though simply wanted the event deleted entirely. They don't want to compromise, they simply want to be "anti" and they constantly derail discussions.

If you only focus on the most negative aspects, you will always find lots. And you will, before soon, start to participate in a similar negative manner. Opposite "side", but similar contributions.

DE was extremely frustrating to a lot of players. Made worse on some platforms, including the forum, by experienced players mocking people who kept failing. Without context. Without knowing anything about their performance or situation. Just ignoring them would have been better. Sometimes venting frustrations is all that's needed.

So long as you focus on positive contributions it will draw the general conversation into the constructive as well. 

18 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

It's not working out because Arena Net was far to generous and folded on every occasion where stuff was a little more difficult. Teaching people that enough outrage will fix the problem by getting it nerfed into oblivion won't make people try to fix problems on their own.

Your argument only works if you assume everyone will keep playing no matter what. Will do everything in their power to overcome any challenge. But that's just not what happens in reality. 

Increasing difficulty, by itself, is not a way to get people to learn.

A first grader won't learn better and faster if tell them to solve an equation and put down all necessary text books in front of them. 

The increase in difficulty needs to be appropriate and it helps if you get taught something, train that thing, reinforce your knowledge and then get tested on it. And that's the part GW2 fails at.

ANet is, historically, extremely passionate about hardcore content. And had to react to deteriorating metrics. Aka, players just not playing anymore.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Raizel.8175]

9 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Casuals wanted "more time"(stuck at  20%) to kill the boss , and they were met with "git gud , no need for more 111 metas" from the raiders.

I won't deny that there were such reactions. There were also reactions though - the majority I'd say - that advocated for less RNG (less chain biting etc. pp.), reduced defiance bars on whirlpools or other improvements.

11 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

A first grader won't learn better and faster if tell them to solve an equation and put down all necessary text books in front of them. 

Adult people. Adult people...

11 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

ANet is, historically, extremely passionate about hardcore content. And had to react to deteriorating metrics. Aka, players just not playing anymore.

No. Just look at release cadences for instanced content and sPvP or - even worse - WvW.

21 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

So, are you trying to tell me everyone knows all about all of those mechanics?

We're talking about basics here and not rocket science.