[Suggestions ] Just listen to this guy

[SlayerXX.7138]

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Hardcore games generally have the same fate. We don't have a mainstream, hardcore MMO nor really any mainstream, hardcore PvP or hardcore PvE multiplayer games. They all settle in niche audiences, change course to accommodate non hardcore players or die. 

Oh yeah niche titles like WoW. You heard of it? Pretty underground. While I wouldn't call WoW "hardcore". Its magnitudes more hard core on high levels then GW 2.

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Oh yeah niche titles like WoW. You heard of it? Pretty underground. While I wouldn't call WoW "hardcore". Its magnitudes more hard core on high levels then GW 2.

We could technically  make raiders pay 15 dollars here on GW2 , for new modes (5.000people x 15 dollars  x3 months)

But i don't know how they will react . 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Luci.7018

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 minute ago, Luci.7018 said:

We could technically  make raiders pay 15 dollars here on GW2 , for new modes (5.000people x 15 dollars  x3 months)

But i don't know how they will react . 

What has that to do with anything? How does that relaate do anything in the quoted text?

 

How has your non sensical statement 2 upvotes 1 second after being posted?

 

Are you guys Forum vote manipulating again?

[Erise.5614]

20 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Oh yeah niche titles like WoW. You heard of it? Pretty underground. While I wouldn't call WoW "hardcore". Its magnitudes more hard core on high levels then GW 2.

Exactly my point. It's not hardcore either. It expands a little more and a little better at the very top of the curve. But even the history of WoW is basically dialing back, making it easier to group up, easier to play and easier to progress. Their LFG is so much more simplified getting people into instanced group content easier and sooner. Their combat system is much more simplified. Or, actually. Let me call it more classified. Your role is more specific and more clear. Easier to understand what you should do and whether you are doing good.

I view strikes as an attempt to improve things in that regard and it might, long term, allow them to expand that side of the end game to the degree they clearly want to expand it. Let's not forget that ANet was founded on the belief that PvE was tutorial and PvP end game. Every expansion had huge steps towards hardcore content. Heck, even the combat system fundamentally is incredibly hardcore. Just combo fields by themselves are more complex than a lot of games. But it just keeps not playing out that way. And ANet was simply smart enough, reflected quickly enough to change course. 

Maybe we'll see more. I do hope so. Because that'd mean they made it pleasant enough for large amounts of players like me to properly enjoy that content. I do like more variety and enjoying stuff. More of the same just ain't it though. They can't just deliver more and hope for the best. They had to change course and go about it more slowly again. And they need to continue to expand on that as well as on non hardcore reward structures. 

And, again. I'm not saying that content is bad or out of place or should be removed or anything of the sorts.

But I find the suggestion of those parts. Of those modes carrying game. Being the only reason the game is healthy. I find that very unlikely. I doubt if you made a survey for the community asking them why they play GW2 the primary answer was "playing raids / PvP / WvW".

(Side note. WoW is not a particularly good example here. Different to GW2 which has grown both according to ANet but also in revenue in the public shareholder reports. WoW is loosing subscribers. Every year. Somewhere around 130k-200k. Between 2015 - 2020 they lost around 800.000 subscribers. ~20% of their players. And the pandemic didn't even get those back. It merely paused the loss. Different to a lot of games. Including GW2 which saw a real increase)

Edited May 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

What has that to do with anything? How does that relaate do anything in the quoted text?

 

How has your non sensical statement 2 upvotes 1 second after being posted?

 

Are you guys Forum vote manipulating again?

Different games have different ways of doing things .

If people could pay and "pull their weight" for their respected mode , then they wouldn't be a need to "beg" for people to come to your mode .

If you cannot have a "healthy population" , you can "force it to exist" by using cash

 

As far as the upvotes/dislikes goes , just ignore them . They are bleeping lights and so few that cannot fill a raid party

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Tukaram.8256]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

What did draw you to the game in the first place? What keeps you playing in a year?

I love open world PvE. Dungeons and all should be open world. I love the cooperative play for GW2.  I prefer sandbox games - I do not need a dev to hold my hand and feed me content. A huge open world to explore is what I am here for. I could not care less about strikes, story, fractal whatever things, legendaries...  I am glad it is there for people that want it, but I have plenty to do and no interest in that.  I played GW since 2006, and GW2 since launch. 😎

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Different games have different ways of doing things .

If people could pay and "pull their weight" for their respected mode , then they wouldn't be a need to "beg" for people to come to your mode .

If you cannot have a "healthy population" , you can "force it to exist" by using cash

 

As far as the upvotes/dislikes goes , just ignore them . They are bleeping lights and so few that cannot fill a raid party

 

I get what you mean and, as you can see, am even on your "side" of this debate. 

But let's be real here. That point is about as disingenuous as calling non hardcore players lazy.

A subscription mode within a non subscription game is always going to perform extremely poorly, no matter how much people like the content. A pay wall always decreases conversion. And in this context, would mean it would decrease participation in those modes. Even if people love it. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[voltaicbore.8012]

52 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Sorry, but this is objectively wrong. Just look up NCs quarterly earnings - their reports are quite detailed. GW2 did struggle to keep up with niche titles like Aion and Blade & Soul. Last year, GW2 made 1 billion KRW less than Aion - a game infested with RNG and P2W, a game that only got recycled content during the last few years and a game that's basically dead in NA/EU.

You do realize how small NA/EU sales are for NCSoft overall, yes? Aion is indeed basically dead in NA/EU, but the numbers you're looking aren't just NA/EU. They're NCSoft global. NCSoft titles that don't do well in the western market still have larger followings in the home and Asian market.

That's also why your P2W and RNG bit (which, presumably, you included to paint Aion and the like as very undesirable products that still beat out GW2) doesn't apply, because it's not as big of a deal for those games in the markets they actually perform in. Time for a culture lesson, it seems.

It actually starts with the sense of corruption that is endemic to East Asia in general, and South Korea in particular. You can call it something of a chicken-and-egg problem if you want to be charitable; do citizens and consumers participate in corruption because institutions all demand it? Or can institutions get away with corruption because the citizens and consumers keep seeking out corrupt means to evade consequences or cut in line? As a Korean, I firmly, FIRMLY believe it is the latter.

To be fair to Koreans, it's not like they're the only people in the world who do it. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the Korean individuals and society that I know not only are ALWAYS looking for a shortcut, but explicitly value success via illicit shortcuts over failure via trying it the right way. I'm not going to transliterate all the adages and idioms Koreans use to express this preference, but I think it's an objectively provable point.  "It's the journey, not the destination" holds zero value in prevailing Korean thought. It's always results results results. If something isn't going your way, there's no value in having tried to get it the right way and fallen short. Instead of rewarding and supporting the notion of trying again until you actually get it right, the smart move by Korean standards is to open a back door or side door to get what you want, even if you didn't merit it.

And guess what that means? Even if an institutional system starts out clean, the PEOPLE will begin to inject corruption into it. Worried about your evaluation? Make sure to get your boss' wife that exclusive thing she's been nagging him about for months. Failed to meet this or that standard? A wise gift, a knowing gesture, a discreet envelope pushed quietly across a coffee table is the way to go. It's no surprise that systems are designed to cater to this mindset. Any institution that tried to be on the straight and narrow would be utterly ridiculed in Korea as being backward, inefficient, and inept. Yes, every culture does have some saying that goes along the lines of "following the rules are for suckers," but few cultures I've observed or encountered are as rabidly and openly committed to that idea as modern Korea is. There are many historical developments that likely explain why corruption's hold over Korean culture has intensified in modernity, but the wall of text is too big already so I won't get into it.

You want to know just how pervasive this ethos is in Korea? Just look at gaming. Korea is absolutely infamous for churning out games with the most egregious pay-to-win systems the world has ever seen. "Pay to win Korean game" is a widely understood term in gaming. Even for something that is mostly done for personal entertainment and not for social advancement (or anything else significant), paying extra to get ahead is just totally acceptable to the Korean market. P2W is not really even an insult there, it's just how things are everywhere in Korea, not just inside gaming.

So no, it's no mark against GW2 for not being able to beat a P2W RNG grindfest that primarily gets its sales in and KR and Asia regions.

Edited May 6, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[kharmin.7683]

40 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

I think they saw the writing at the wall, tried to expand PvP/WvW/Raids halve assed it and failed. And then laid people off.

 

(sigh)  This again.

No, this was not the reason for the lay-offs. 

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

To be fair to Koreans, it's not like they're the only people in the world who do it. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the Korean individuals and society that I know not only are ALWAYS looking for a shortcut, but explicitly value success via illicit shortcuts over failure via trying it the right way. I'm not going to transliterate all the adages and idioms Koreans use to express this preference, but I think it's an objectively provable point.  "It's the journey, not the destination" holds zero value in prevailing Korean thought.

That's the reason Korean MMO are born and die at a an alarming rate and Korea has the highest suicide rate of any wealthy nation.

While WoW and guild wars survived a decade. Even runescape lives somehow on. Don´t want the game to kill itself by taking the Korean model to heart. Don't wanna lose all my progression because the anet CEO wants to cash out Korean style.

 

Edit: Oh the Korean thing was just a long tangent and not a point about we should implement the Korean system.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Raizel.8175]

15 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

You do realize how small NA/EU sales are for NCSoft overall, yes? Aion is indeed basically dead in NA/EU, but the numbers you're looking aren't just NA/EU. They're NCSoft global. NCSoft titles that don't do well in the western market still have larger followings in the home and Asian market.

That's also why your P2W and RNG bit (which, presumably, you included to paint Aion and the like as very undesirable products that still beat out GW2) doesn't apply, because it's not as big of a deal for those games in the markets they actually perform in. Time for a culture lesson, it seems.

It actually starts with the sense of corruption that is endemic to East Asia in general, and South Korea in particular. You can call it something of a chicken-and-egg problem if you want to be charitable; do citizens and consumers participate in corruption because institutions all demand it? Or can institutions get away with corruption because the citizens and consumers keep seeking out corrupt means to evade consequences or cut in line? As a Korean, I firmly, FIRMLY believe it is the latter.

To be fair to Koreans, it's not like they're the only people in the world who do it. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the Korean individuals and society that I know not only are ALWAYS looking for a shortcut, but explicitly value success via illicit shortcuts over failure via trying it the right way. I'm not going to transliterate all the adages and idioms Koreans use to express this preference, but I think it's an objectively provable point.  "It's the journey, not the destination" holds zero value in prevailing Korean thought. It's always results results results. If something isn't going your way, there's no value in having tried to get it the right way and fallen short. Instead of rewarding and supporting the notion of trying again until you actually get it right, the smart move by Korean standards is to open a back door or side door to get what you want, even if you didn't merit it.

And guess what that means? Even if an institutional system starts out clean, the PEOPLE will begin to inject corruption into it. Worried about your evaluation? Make sure to get your boss' wife that exclusive thing she's been nagging him about for months. Failed to meet this or that standard? A wise gift, a knowing gesture, a discreet envelope pushed quietly across a coffee table is the way to go. It's no surprise that systems are designed to cater to this mindset. Any institution that tried to be on the straight and narrow would be utterly ridiculed in Korea as being backward, inefficient, and inept. Yes, every culture does have some saying that goes along the lines of "following the rules are for suckers," but few cultures I've observed or encountered are as rabidly and openly committed to that idea as modern Korea is. There are many historical developments that likely explain why corruption's hold over Korean culture has intensified in modernity, but the wall of text is too big already so I won't get into it.

You want to know just how pervasive this ethos is in Korea? Just look at gaming. Korea is absolutely infamous for churning out games with the most egregious pay-to-win systems the world has ever seen. "Pay to win Korean game" is a widely understood term in gaming. Even for something that is mostly done for personal entertainment and not for social advancement (or anything else significant), paying extra to get ahead is just totally acceptable to the Korean market. P2W is not really even an insult there, it's just how things are everywhere in Korea, not just inside gaming.

So no, it's no mark against GW2 for not being able to beat a P2W RNG grindfest that primarily gets its sales in and KR and Asia regions.

You're right with korean culture, that still doesn't the fact that the western market is by far larger and wealthier though.

[Erise.5614]

19 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

That's the reason Korean MMO are born and die at a an alarming rate and Korea had the highest suicide rate of any wealthy nation.

While WoW and guild wars survived a decade. Even runescape live somehow on. Don't wanna kill myself, don't wanna lose all my progression because the anet CEO wants to cash out korean style.

If you contemplate suicide over game monetization, please get help. And I mean this seriously. 

General population suicide statistics are not strongly related to game design of any kind. Monetization or otherwise. It is usually rooted in societal dynamics or personal despair. 

Should you feel this strongly about games you should take a break, reach out to suicide prevention efforts and get in touch with professional help. That is not normal and it is not healthy. 

https://blog.opencounseling.co/suicide-hotlines/

Edited May 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

If you contemplate suicide over game monetization, please get help. And I mean this seriously. 

General population suicide statistics are not strongly related to game design of any kind. Monetization or otherwise. It is usually rooted in societal dynamics or personal despair. 

I´m touched. Thanks.

But I just did try to draw a parallel between bad(but profitable) Korean business practice and that is not a good model for the "health" of the game. As I think their Koreans success inspired them to cut corners left and right in gw 2 to increase short term profits.

Edit: Im not trying to be sarcastic or have a gotcha moment. I do find it touching that stranger would care about the well being of a another stranger.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, Albi.7250 said:

I´m touched. Thanks.

But I just did try to draw a parallel between bad(but profitable) Korean business practice and that is not a good model for the "health" of the game. As I think their Koreans success inspired them to cut corners left and right in gw 2 to increase short term profits.

May I please urge you to not use suicide as a cheap gotcha argument?

It is an extremely serious topic and you should not abuse the deaths of so many people in such an unfitting way.

The Asian business model doesn't work in the west but is extremely successful there. Games don't die quickly at all. They just have significantly more venture capital available for MMOs which is the reason you see so many more titles from South Korea than are created in the rest of the world. That is considered risky investments though. The titles with the highest revenue rival the likes of Fortnite, League of Legends and Candy Crush. Games like Dungeon Fighter Online (2005) and CrossFire (2007). 

Again. It wouldn't work at all in the wester market and I did call out the disingenuous argument you responded to as well. 

But that was an extremely wild response that's factually wonky and the comment about suicide was extremely inappropriate. 

[Erise.5614]

31 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

You're right with korean culture, that still doesn't the fact that the western market is by far larger and wealthier though.

That is actually incorrect. The Asian-Pacific market is about as large as the rest of the world combined. Now, considering Australia is included in that statistic as Asian-Pacific it's slightly off target. But total revenue in gaming in asia is not substantially smaller than in the rest of the world combined and the player base is actually larger by quite some margin. 

Edit: 
Source revenue 
Source player populations 
(There is numbers for 2022, trends continue towards Asia getting larger, faster than the west. But you have to sign up to get access to those and I wanted to share easily accessible statistics. NewZoo is a prime source for data about the business side of the games industry)

Edited May 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Raizel.8175]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

That is actually incorrect. The Asian-Pacific market is about as large as the rest of the world combined. Now, considering Australia is included in that statistic as Asian-Pacific it's slightly off target. But total revenue in gaming in asia is not substantially smaller than in the rest of the world combined and the player base is actually larger by quite some margin. 

Edit: 
Source revenue 
Source player populations 
(There is numbers for 2022, trends continue towards Asia getting larger, faster than the west. But you have to sign up and I wanted to share easily accessible statistics. NewZoo is a prime source for data about the business side of the games industry)

Many people  have the faulty conception that Asia = Asia, which is wrong. Aggressive monetization isn't looked well upon in all asian contries - it's more or less regionally limited to countries like KR and CN due to their culture.

[Erise.5614]

10 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Many people  have the faulty conception that Asia = Asia, which is wrong. Aggressive monetization isn't looked well upon in all asian contries - it's more or less regionally limited to countries like KR and CN due to their culture.

That is correct. There are substantial differences between certain Asian regions. However, you can't call any of those western and they all still differ substantially from the western market. Both in preferred game design and established monetization models. 

Also, the vast majority of revenue generated happens in China -> Japan -> South Korea. In this order. China is a larger market than the US. Japan is about as large as the largest 3 European countries combined. And South Korea is still Top 4 revenue world wide. 

(Edit: Source)

Japan, for example, is a little different in how they like their P2W. They prefer gatcha games over straight up purchases. But it's still a primary driver of revenue. 

Edit: I mean. This is derailing the conversation a little. So we might wanna go back to the point from earlier. About how ANet is trying to push towards more hardcore content but not always doing that in the best way. I just wanted to point out that there's a lot of myths around revenue and games markets. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[SlayerXX.7138]

53 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

(sigh)  This again.

No, this was not the reason for the lay-offs. 

I didn't play at that time. That's was just my conclusion to the points listed here. Could you enlighten me?

 

I did a quick google search. Something about live costs to high for the live product. But that could mean anything. And have any reason.

 

[kharmin.7683]

5 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

I didn't play at that time. That's was just my conclusion to the points listed here. Could you enlighten me?

 

I did a quick google search. Something about live costs to high for the live product. But that could mean anything. And have any reason.

 

Anet had some other side projects (unrelated to GW2) which were axed.  That's where the lay-offs  happened.

[SlayerXX.7138]

4 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Anet had some other side projects (unrelated to GW2) which were axed.  That's where the lay-offs  happened.

Ahhh. So they didn´t put money into GW 2 related Side projects (PvP/WvW) but into entirely different things. That clears things up thanks.

[Erise.5614]

36 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Ahhh. So they didn´t put money into GW 2 related Side projects (PvP/WvW) but into entirely different things. That clears things up thanks.

These kinds of investments are not on studio level.

Some people at ANet managed to convince executives at NCSoft to invest into a new project and scale up the team accordingly. Axing the project (obviously) results in lay-offs without really impacting investment into the existing game or decisions about what to focus on. 

I suspect the decision for a 4th expansion came alongside the decision to shorten IBS and releasing EoD. Revisiting their core content delivery and monetization model. Which resulted in some tough decisions and alongside covid resulted in a slightly rougher delivery than they probably hoped. While investing resources into more long term changes and long term plans. Suggesting a very healthy situation. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Linken.6345]

11 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not "every group" but "every player". Each content should get a share of resources dedicated to it that is proportional to the number of players interested in said content. It's just that there's simply way more OW/casual players than hardcore ones. So, all of "spvp, wvw, fractals and raids" indeed had "less of the cake" than open world, but that is simply because all those types of content taken together are still being played by only a minority of players.

It's not a problem of more hardcore content not getting their "equal share". It's that hardcore players are generally used to (and expecting) receiving special treatment. And don't react all too well if they don't get what they expect. As such, hardcore content generally requires far more resource investiture per player to be sustainable.

It was clearly shown in the history of raids in GW2. When Anet allocated as much resources as (to them) raid population warranted, it turned out to not be enough to keep raiders happy. Coupled with the accessibility issues, it meant that raider population after initial peak just kept dropping and dropping, up to the point where any further resource investment was no longer justifiable to devs.

 

 

I wonder how much open world pve would get played if everything in it was on a weekly lockout.

Oh I see you did this meta yesterday here is 2 blue unides for your trouble.

Oh you did this map monday like 5 days ago sorry here are no rewards for you come back next week.

Maybe the weekly lock on rewards keep people not repeating them as much as open world you can play 24/7 every day except some metas like pawaladan.

Would be fun to see what would happen if weekly/daily lock out was taken away and reward buffed to close to drizzlewood coast on instance content.

[Erise.5614]

33 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

I wonder how much open world pve would get played if everything in it was on a weekly lockout.

Oh I see you did this meta yesterday here is 2 blue unides for your trouble.

Oh you did this map monday like 5 days ago sorry here are no rewards for you come back next week.

Maybe the weekly lock on rewards keep people not repeating them as much as open world you can play 24/7 every day except some metas like pawaladan.

Would be fun to see what would happen if weekly/daily lock out was taken away and reward buffed to close to drizzlewood coast on instance content.

Just to mention that. Drizzlewood is not as much gold for normal players as it's sometimes made out. Yes, extremely efficient Drizzlewood is 30g/hr. But extremely efficient raids are ~25g/hr as well. 

Normal players probably draw more like 15g/hr from Drizzlewood. Which is still a lot. No doubt. But not as extreme as it's sometimes made out to be. And raid rewards just fluctuate extremely depending on the group and its clear speed.

The limitations on hardcore content are in place to prevent / slow down burnout. It's common design pattern that players by default overindulge and then move on.
Time gates like this are in place to get players into the habit of playing that content regularly and is extremely effective at doing that. Which is important for very active and involved content. However. A MMO should never fully lock you out. Which is why OW doesn't have limits. I honestly kinda disagree with the approach though. Metas could have increased rewards for the first clear per week and then drop significantly afterwards to push people into more diverse content. I see fewer people on Drizzle than the forums make it seem but I do see the phenomenon of a lot of people funneling into a handful of events. Spreading that out more could be interesting. 
And on the other hand. It would be interesting how a daily raid would impact things. We already have call of the mists. Double rewards for one wing. Make that cycle daily, don't reset weekly caps. No additional LI, no additional magnetite. But offer ok gold rewards for one additional wing every day. Still habit building, keeping players who don't play for LI anymore in the content longer, better rewards, encouraging more active clearing on every day of the week. And making it more predictable. Where you can be sure to find plenty of LFGs for a certain wing on certain days. But nothing unheard off, no new systems, not something where newer raiders or people with less time feel like they are entirely missing out. Nothing wild either. Keeping risks to economy and game experience small. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Astralporing.1957]

16 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

That's the reason Korean MMO are born and die at a an alarming rate and Korea has the highest suicide rate of any wealthy nation.

While WoW and guild wars survived a decade. Even runescape lives somehow on.

You might have forgotten about Lineage II (actually, to think of it, if i remember right it's predecessor, Lineage, is still up and running, only western servers were shut down).

[Astralporing.1957]

On 5/6/2022 at 10:06 AM, Albi.7250 said:

Lol people advocating mob justice at cost of the health of the game. Enough people are interested in challenging content. And you heavily underestimate the number of fractals/Raid/WvW/PvP combined. 

I don't think i do. I remember at some points devs let slip how big percentage of active players ever played SPvP or WvW, and it was somewhere around 10% (and notice, how some of those players were PvE players that just visited the PvP content once or twice but weren't really interested in it). There was no such info about instanced content, but i doubt it's much higher than that.

Quote

A game needs some Reward to strive for. And challenging content is part of that. A game needs that even if not everyone does it. If you are mad because people don't carry you to content stay mad.

Rewards that are placed in content most players are not (and will not be) interested in, do not fulfill that function.

Quote

People being mediocre is there own dam fault. Nobody wants you to be more hardcore. If you join a Strike, any group content were people rely on you, you have to do your part. You cant claim being oppressed because other people don't do your work for you.

You don't even notice the contradiction here.

First, being "mediocre" is not a "fault". It is a choice. It's like telling aa crowd of people playing basketball in their home yard that them not being a league tier players is their "fault". It is not, because being sportsmen was never their aspiration in the first place. So, you are already expecting players to follow in your own footsteps and value things you value even when they do not care about it. And them having a different views on those you consider to be a "fault". So, yes, you already do think they should become more hardcore, you just don't see it.

And there is the secon point: while i do fully agree with you that people going into strikes/raids should prepare themselves for this, and do their own part, there's a caveat here you seem to miss. It's that people that are not prepared, and not capable or not willing to pull their own weight, should not be pressured/baited into doing that content.

But if you decide to do a basketball tournament, and invite home yard players into it, you should not expect them to play on professional level. And you should not try to blame/disparage them if they'll play at the level they always do.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Astralporing.1957