Comparing EoD elite specs

[Poelala.2830]

10 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

I love cata

Same

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

From the few hours I tried cata last month (still don't have xpack on my account) it is as OP as weaver at the beginning in pve; huge sustain, strong dps.

But I really don't like the traits. All the semi-passive buffs or boons to stack while doing random rotation, god ...  So yes you have different result according to your traits (in catalyst spec lane), but Jade sphere is the same, auras are the same, hammer is the same and the only change comes from your buffbar; the gameplay feels exactly the same no matter what.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:12 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

It should pretty obvious from first beta that Catalyst is just Elementalist + additional combo field. Sure you can get high DpS, sure you have some "sustain", but ultimately it is just core on steroids and nothing beyond that...

This. Catalyst is just lazy design, but hammer is the true piece of design garbage.

 

Everything about it is wrong - the concept of a medium range caster is ok but the implementation is just a slightly different version of sword. Pure kitten garbage. 

[soulknight.9620]

7 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

This. Catalyst is just lazy design, but hammer is the true piece of design garbage.

I disagree. I think hammer design is THE best thing about catalyst and a thing that should be considered for redesigning other weapon sets. Hammer allows you to maintain decent dps by swapping every attunement (not taking into consideretion spheres) while providing a different effect with attunement swap. That actually allows ele to adapt to the course of engagement and use defensive and sustain based abilities with a small tradeoff instead of a collosal dps loss like in other weapon sets (when u attune to water as a weaver or tempest you kiss ur dmg goodbye). 

[Poelala.2830]

9 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

I disagree. I think hammer design is THE best thing about catalyst and a thing that should be considered for redesigning other weapon sets. Hammer allows you to maintain decent dps by swapping every attunement (not taking into consideretion spheres) while providing a different effect with attunement swap. That actually allows ele to adapt to the course of engagement and use defensive and sustain based abilities with a small tradeoff instead of a collosal dps loss like in other weapon sets (when u attune to water as a weaver or tempest you kiss ur dmg goodbye). 

Agreed! That’s why we’ve seen so many hammer catalyst in mAT’s and there’s so many hammer catalysts in the top 25. Definitely excellent design.

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Agreed! That’s why we’ve seen so many hammer catalyst in mAT’s and there’s so many hammer catalysts in the top 25. Definitely excellent design.

There are plenty of strong builds with 0 representation in MATs. I'm going to pressume your being sarcastic. 

There's only 5 spots and your talking about teams which will swap their comp based on a 1% increase. 

However there are actually 2 hammer catalysts in the top 25. Which is more then both rangers and warriors. 

Hammer catalyst is a pure dps and the game has thousands of them. 

The issue is it would be competing for a spot against willbender, and willbender has invincibility frames and higher mobility. 

MAT will play the fotm the overpowered choices. 

But the answer is "overpowered and played by the top 0.5 or bust". 

Catalyst is good. However, willbender snd harbinger are both extremely overpowered. 

Also currently tempest is just our better option right now, which does get representation at the levels your speaking of. 

[soulknight.9620]

4 hours ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Agreed! That’s why we’ve seen so many hammer catalyst in mAT’s and there’s so many hammer catalysts in the top 25. Definitely excellent design.

Sure, representation in one of the most underplayed and low populated game mode and far less populated ATs is a good criteria to measure design of a mechanic/class/weapon. Imagine if there were other game modes in gw2? Oh wait...

[Poelala.2830]

6 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Sure, representation in one of the most underplayed and low populated game mode and far less populated ATs is a good criteria to measure design of a mechanic/class/weapon. Imagine if there were other game modes in gw2? Oh wait...

In my original post I say sPvP. The fact there’s 0 dedicated hammer catalysts in the top 25 of EU/NA is indicative of it being bad design.

[Poelala.2830]

7 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

There are plenty of strong builds with 0 representation in MATs. I'm going to pressume your being sarcastic. 

There's only 5 spots and your talking about teams which will swap their comp based on a 1% increase. 

However there are actually 2 hammer catalysts in the top 25. Which is more then both rangers and warriors. 

Hammer catalyst is a pure dps and the game has thousands of them. 

The issue is it would be competing for a spot against willbender, and willbender has invincibility frames and higher mobility. 

MAT will play the fotm the overpowered choices. 

But the answer is "overpowered and played by the top 0.5 or bust". 

Catalyst is good. However, willbender snd harbinger are both extremely overpowered. 

Also currently tempest is just our better option right now, which does get representation at the levels your speaking of. 

Who are these two dedicated hammer catalysts? There are definitely 0 dedicated hammer catalysts on NA. The only meta build ele has is the only one it has had since 2015, heal tempest. EU’s rank 1 is a ranger main, and there are surely more rangers in the top 25 there as well. On NA I counted at least two ranger mains this season and zero hammer catalyst mains.

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Poelala.2830 said:

Who are these two dedicated hammer catalysts? There are definitely 0 dedicated hammer catalysts on NA. The only meta build ele has is the only one it has had since 2015, heal tempest. EU’s rank 1 is a ranger main, and there are surely more rangers in the top 25 there as well. On NA I counted at least two ranger mains this season and zero hammer catalyst mains.

Who is top 1 as a ranger main? 

[Poelala.2830]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Who is top 1 as a ranger main? 

Boyce 

[Puck.3697]

5 minutes ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Boyce 

Boyce isn't a ranger main. He played untamed for a time prior its nerf lol, however he's a warrior main for 1, and he flex rolls based on what is meta commonly 

But yes he did do well in regards to ranked with untamed, so does mizo with hammer zerker catalyst though. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Poelala.2830]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Boyce isn't a ranger main. He played untamed for a time prior its nerf lol, however he's a warrior main for 1, and he flex rolls based on what is meta commonly 

All his recent streams show him predominantly on hammer/great sword untamed saying how much he loves it, it’s the best class in the game, it’s busted etc.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Poelala.2830 said:

All his recent streams show him predominantly on hammer/great sword untamed saying how much he loves it, it’s the best class in the game, it’s busted etc.

Untamed is not more busted then willbender, and no he's on several times over stated he doesn't think its meta over willbender, he just enjoys it and as usual, warrior is worst proffession in thr game so he's stuck choosing something else 

[Poelala.2830]

8 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Untamed is not more busted then willbender, and no he's on several times over stated he doesn't think its meta over willbender, he just enjoys it and as usual, warrior is worst proffession in thr game so he's stuck choosing something else 

No one said anything about it being better than willbender. You just made that up. He is a self-proclaimed untamed main (and warrior) who plays all classes.

[Xaylin.1860]

25 minutes ago, Poelala.2830 said:

In my original post I say sPvP. The fact there’s 0 dedicated hammer catalysts in the top 25 of EU/NA is indicative of it being bad design.

If you were talking about Elementalist overall we might have an argument. But talking especs - with nowadays 3 by 9 specs = 27 - a no show in the top 25 - just to be clear... 25 - 27 equals minus 2 - says absolutely nothing about the qualities of a spec nor would it be a statistical anomaly. 🙄 Even less so when specifying the weapon.

 

Now, this doesn't mean that we don't have overrepresentation of certain specs and can't draw conclusions from the top 25. But that's a completely different topic because that's mostly about BiS and meta. And BiS should never be the benchmark for balance. 

 

As said earlier: Catalyst does have issues. But you 👏 are 👏 reaching 👏 when it comes to the extent. I'm having a very hard time taking this thread and others seriously. Then again... I was kindly 'told off' on a different occasion so I probably shouldn't care to begin with. So I won't 🥳

[Poelala.2830]

15 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

If you were talking about Elementalist overall we might have an argument. But talking especs - with nowadays 3 by 9 specs = 27 - a no show in the top 25 - just to be clear... 25 - 27 equals minus 2 - says absolutely nothing about the qualities of a spec nor would it be a statistical anomaly. 🙄 Even less so when specifying the weapon.

 

Now, this doesn't mean that we don't have overrepresentation of certain specs and can't draw conclusions from the top 25. But that's a completely different topic because that's mostly about BiS and meta. And BiS should never be the benchmark for balance. 

 

As said earlier: Catalyst does have issues. But you 👏 are 👏 reaching 👏 when it comes to the extent. I'm having a very hard time taking this thread and others seriously. Then again... I was kindly 'told off' on a different occasion so I probably shouldn't care to begin with. So I won't 🥳

The first mistake is thinking it’s fair to say there’s 27 specs in the meta. Most classes use the EOD specs, and out of those 9 specs there are no more than 2/50 in the top 25 who are predominately cata players.

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

I actually feel like Elementalist's elite spec is significantly different from the core version. The jade sphere was in my opinion a pretty original and fun addition to the profession! To me the Catalyst doesn't feel like "core 2.0" in any way. 

I think all EoD specs are good. My favorites are (1) Untamed, (2) Willbender, (3) Catalyst, (4) Bladesworn.  

Edited June 14, 2022 by TheLadyOfTheRings.9148

[Axelteas.7192]

Classes with mechanics that transform the player's playstyle greatly: engineer lol

And transform your brain into a jellyfish too.

[scerevisiae.1972]

What really irks me about hammer cata is that they deliberately designed it to only be useable in 1 game mode.

Seriously, how bad of a design team do you have to be to design a spec that only really works in 1/3rd of your game. 

[Poelala.2830]

5 hours ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

I actually feel like Elementalist's elite spec is significantly different from the core version. The jade sphere was in my opinion a pretty original and fun addition to the profession! To me the Catalyst doesn't feel like "core 2.0" in any way. 

I think all EoD specs are good. My favorites are (1) Untamed, (2) Willbender, (3) Catalyst, (4) Bladesworn.  

You might have a point. I wonder how long it took the developers of catalyst to figure out circles exist.

[Serephen.3420]

5 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

What really irks me about hammer cata is that they deliberately designed it to only be useable in 1 game mode.

Seriously, how bad of a design team do you have to be to design a spec that only really works in 1/3rd of your game. 

It's usable in wvw as well, I use it the majority of time when roaming and the occasional zerg, haven't played much spvp in a while but I have heard some people use it there if that means much.

For me hammer is what makes and saves this spec because most traits are about as interesting as watching paint dry.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Serephen.3420

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:25 PM, Serephen.3420 said:

It's usable in wvw as well

sorry but noone good is using hammer cata in WVW for roaming or for zerg DPS. i and others have done the benchmarks and the lack of range and limited number and small radius of available AOEs and close to zero utility make it one of the worst possible zerg specs.

Edited June 18, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[Puck.3697]

19 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

What really irks me about hammer cata is that they deliberately designed it to only be useable in 1 game mode.

Seriously, how bad of a design team do you have to be to design a spec that only really works in 1/3rd of your game. 

hasnt this always been a thing?

theres LOADS of weapons in this game which are designed to work in 1 game mode. Straight off the top of my head, Reaper Greatsword, and Necromancers Staff.

both of these weapons Suck in the other sides enviroment realistically.

this is because 1 side of the game Demands High DPS and the other side of the game Demands High Utility and Options.

WvWvW SPVP and PvE all have very different demands in what they need, the reason options Exist is to Ensure we have weapons which fit every game mode.... they removed the need for every specc and every weapon to work in every game mode by simply adding multiple of all of them.

and it isnt Deliberatetly designed to only be usuable in one game mode, Mizo got to top 25 with a Hammer catalyst build, Im sorry but 99% of us are not at a Point which Hammer catalyst wouldnt be good, and before someone says "oh its good v Noobs that aint good enough". Dragonhunter has consistently been considered great even tho it falls off a Cliff in terms of viability in Super high level play.

the fact of the matter is, its not a Hammer issue, not entirely atleast.

Elementalist has this problem throughout when considering Damage focused Zerker builds (Which is what hammer is) all our meta builds boil down to a Variant of a Tanky Fire build and Hammer doesnt suit that style of build.

Its not a Deliberate act, its Simply the fact We had no good Power options after the nerfs to Power Weaver, so they introduceda very power centric weapon to our pool of choice. Power builds for ele dont work great in SPVP.

19 hours ago, Poelala.2830 said:

You might have a point. I wonder how long it took the developers of catalyst to figure out circles exist.

considering every sphere has a very animated creature of the Element moving around inside it. aswell as Partical effects, the combo fields on it and more? prolly took a while to hardcode into the game for ELementalist. Espically as it requires 4x reanimations as each creature is different for every element.

I highly doubt. Cataylst was fast to put together.  espically with the fact they reworked the orb mid development to stack.

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Poelala.2830]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

hasnt this always been a thing?

theres LOADS of weapons in this game which are designed to work in 1 game mode. Straight off the top of my head, Reaper Greatsword, and Necromancers Staff.

both of these weapons Suck in the other sides enviroment realistically.

this is because 1 side of the game Demands High DPS and the other side of the game Demands High Utility and Options.

WvWvW SPVP and PvE all have very different demands in what they need, the reason options Exist is to Ensure we have weapons which fit every game mode.... they removed the need for every specc and every weapon to work in every game mode by simply adding multiple of all of them.

and it isnt Deliberatetly designed to only be usuable in one game mode, Mizo got to top 25 with a Hammer catalyst build, Im sorry but 99% of us are not at a Point which Hammer catalyst wouldnt be good, and before someone says "oh its good v Noobs that aint good enough". Dragonhunter has consistently been considered great even tho it falls off a Cliff in terms of viability in Super high level play.

the fact of the matter is, its not a Hammer issue, not entirely atleast.

Elementalist has this problem throughout when considering Damage focused Zerker builds (Which is what hammer is) all our meta builds boil down to a Variant of a Tanky Fire build and Hammer doesnt suit that style of build.

Its not a Deliberate act, its Simply the fact We had no good Power options after the nerfs to Power Weaver, so they introduceda very power centric weapon to our pool of choice. Power builds for ele dont work great in SPVP.

considering every sphere has a very animated creature of the Element moving around inside it. aswell as Partical effects, the combo fields on it and more? prolly took a while to hardcode into the game for ELementalist. Espically as it requires 4x reanimations as each creature is different for every element.

I highly doubt. Cataylst was fast to put together.  espically with the fact they reworked the orb mid development to stack.

 

Figuring out circles exist is not coding animals. The design is lazy and probably took less than 12 hours to create. The animals are actually worthless since spheres do mostly nothing on their own, and there is literally zero relevance or synergy with the actual animals themselves. There is no “Draconic Spirit” with the air jade sphere, the sphere doesn’t even have an animalistic name. The design is lazy. It is by far the worst designed elite spec in GW2 history. It’s the only one without an actual theme, too.