I gave untamed a chance

[Kuma.1503]

My initial impression of this spec was not good. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what this was supposed to accomplish that soulbeast couldn't do better. 

That was until I unlocked the trait Fervent Force. 

 

This... was a game changer. 4 seconds off all of your equipped skill cooldowns on every CC with a measly 1/4 sec ICD. Including utility skills! Meaning you can also reset skills like Spike Trap and Exploding spores which are themselved CC skills. It's like playing Ranger with Super Alacrity. 

Now lets say you add Quick draw and Longbow's ambush skill into the mix. 

It's very easy to get off multiple barrages and rapid fires in quick succession with proper use of point blank shot and multishot. 

When Spirits give alacrity, Untamed might gain a niche for itself thanks to its ability to reset spirit cooldowns with hammer CCs. Depending on how this works out, this may allow them to take fewer spirits, or drop some boon duration in favor of more zerker pieces. 

The cooldown reset works even if a breakbar is already broken so this is consistent value you're getting. Asuming this doesn't get nerfs I expect to see Alacrity Untamed in the future. 

I'm tempted to say that Anet should free this from the Grandmaster slot and bake this in baseline. This trait is what gives Untamed its identity, and they should double down on it. 

More stunlock potential than Spellbreaker, and the ability to constantly reset weapon cooldowns to chain together long satisfying combos. 

 

I'll end this off with a bit of theory craft, because I don't have the time to test this at the moment. But there is potential in Double longbow Untamed Zerg Build. 

The entire purpose of this build is to constantly drop Barrage on the enemy zerg. Using Point Blank shot and Multi shot to reset its cooldown. Use signet to ensure that your Point Blank shot and Multi shot don't get reflected. Could be a fun way to pressure zergs with unreflectable damage while also constantly having Rapid Fire up to Pressure any stragglers. 

Unfortunately there is a skill split for Fervent Force in WvW, but... there is potential to add spirits into the mix for this build depending on how the rework pans out. AoE alacrity + Cooldown reduction. Could be spicy. 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Beddo.1907]

The CD purge is nice but so far there is nothing good to use it on. To proc it you need CC and since pet CC doesn't apply, you need to get it from ranger skills.
That means each CC to proc it removed space for the skills that you use the CD value on, you can use: 
-Weapons: GS 4(after block) and 5, LB 4, SB 5, Hammer 3 and 5, WH 5, OH-Axe 4, Sword Ambush.
-Utility: Spike trap, Spores(gl getting CC out of it), Lightning spirit active.

However if you use the value on a weapon like LB, then using another weapon for CC is counter productive due to weapon swap cooldown. This causes the entire trait value to be quite awful in comparison to raw damage.
Ranger as a class just doesn't have high value cooldowns that they can abuse with Fervent force.

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

The entire purpose of this build is to constantly drop Barrage on the enemy zerg. Using Point Blank shot and Multi shot to reset its cooldown. Use signet to ensure that your Point Blank shot and Multi shot don't get reflected. Could be a fun way to pressure zergs with unreflectable damage while also constantly having Rapid Fire up to Pressure any stragglers. 

As for this theory craft: a single projectile block makes you 100% useless and barrage "root" will make you easy to melt.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Beddo.1907

[draxynnic.3719]

Untamed is fairly strong in PvP, since it has a good mix of mobility, survivability, damage, and CC. In solo PvE situations, it's pretty strong because of what the OP says. Run hammer, unleash your pet, and bring a CC on your utility bar - slam that CC into whatever you're fighting as often as you can, and your heal and any other utilities you have will be back off cooldown before you know it. Gives you a lot of survivability, especially if your other utilities are stuff that will help keep you alive. And you'll pretty much destroy breakbars. If you don't need the rapid recharge, you can unleash yourself, and have more control over your pet skills than you're used to having.

The main problem, apart from the want-ranger-without-pet crowd that weren't satisfied with permamerged soulbeasts, is that it doesn't do much to solve the issues ranger has in WvW, and while in PvE it can have a lot of sustain, its damage isn't enough to justify bringing it into instanced content when it's also not bringing much in the way of party support either.

Mind you, if ranger DOES end up with some strong support utilities that can be supercharged with Fervent Force, that might change the calculus somewhat. Wouldn't be the first time something that was hated initially ended up meta after a few months.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Guildmember formulated this a while ago.  With PBS and Quick Draw in Skirmishing you can basically use RF -> PBS -> Swap (this trait to reduce already-casted RF from PBS) -> RF -> RF (cooldown mostly reset by Quick Draw's cast).

It's definitely a bit of a meme build because there's not really a situation where this is actually *good*, but it's truly the ultimate bearbow experience when standing on a wall freefiring with Rapid Fire every 5 seconds or so lol.

[Lazze.9870]

On 6/11/2022 at 5:13 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

apart from the want-ranger-without-pet crowd that weren't satisfied with permamerged soulbeasts

Of course they weren't satisfied with it, because where this is needed the most - WvW - soulbeast only gave ranger a niche immob role in large scale wvw, a role it already did decently well on druid just with some support instead of damage.

Untamed brought interesting utility, but in a combined package with the same old pet mechanic. It doesn't work for that kind of content.

The fact of the matter is, there is only so much variety they can do while still keeping the same pet mechanic intact for every spec, and we're at 4 out of 4 specs with the fundamental same pet mechanic, two of them offering a twist on it by pressing F5.

For the sake of variety in terms of elite spec mechanics and role diversity, it needs a completely petless spec at some point. The pet mechanic is too limited in of itself.

Edit: if this is confusing to anyone, I feel sorry for them.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

On 6/12/2022 at 7:04 PM, Lazze.9870 said:

Of course they weren't satisfied with it, because where this is needed the most - WvW - soulbeast only gave ranger a niche immob role in large scale wvw, a role it already did decently well on druid just with some support instead of damage.

Untamed brought interesting utility, but in a combined package with the same old pet mechanic. It doesn't work for that kind of content.

The fact of the matter is, there is only so much variety they can do while still keeping the same pet mechanic intact for every spec, and we're at 4 out of 4 specs with the fundamental same pet mechanic, two of them offering a twist on it by pressing F5.

For the sake of variety in terms of elite spec mechanics and role diversity, it needs a completely petless spec at some point. The pet mechanic is too limited in of itself.

Edit: if this is confusing to anyone, I feel sorry for them.

Just to remind you all Anet devs have already explained pets are not going away anytime soon for the ranger. The ranger is a pet class and you don't want that then you may be happier with other class. 

I do understand in GW1 it was different but that was something on the lines of  what was said during the presentation of the soulbeast. 

Although  i agree soulbeast could become more "petless" by increasing the beastmode CD and allowing the pet swap while merged. That would make everybody happy: it would fix the constant pet reviving issue and it would bring more depth and variety to the soulbeast. Let's say Beastmode in 60s and pet swap while merged in 20s. Traits go back to trigger when swapping pets. 

Unplayed is just very bad in general, it need a full rework. Dual hammer, Pet skills, traits, even cantrips. Why does the Unplayed have cantrips, why not Augments or Virtues which are related to heavy classes. Why so many things, really why. 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by anduriell.6280

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Just to remind you all Anet devs have already explained pets are not going away anytime soon for the ranger. The ranger is a pet class and you don't want that then you may be happier with other class. 

I do understand in GW1 it was different but that was something on the lines of  what was said during the presentation of the soulbeast. 

Although  i agree soulbeast could become more "petless" by increasing the beastmode CD and allowing the pet swap while merged. That would make everybody happy: it would fix the constant pet reviving issue and it would bring more depth and variety to the soulbeast. Let's say Beastmode in 60s and pet swap while merged in 20s. Traits go back to trigger when swapping pets. 

Unplayed is just very bad in general, it need a full rework. Dual hammer, Pet skills, traits, even cantrips. Why does the Unplayed have cantrips, why not Augments or Virtues which are related to heavy classes. Why so many things, really why. 

 

 

I do not play competitively, so my feel is different.

I loved soulbeast when I could swap pets during combat.  Swapping when merged was never something I wanted/needed.  I didn't have an issue unmerging/swapping/merging and really enjoyed that mechanic.  When the swap was removed, it killed the fun for me and I went back to core ranger.  I still very rarely use soulbeast.

Untamed for me is great!  I get the pet swap just like with core, but with additional things and more pet control.  I am getting a lot more out of this than any of the other ranger specs.  While I agree that the utilities could be more helpful, I don't find that untamed needs a "full rework".

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/13/2022 at 3:04 AM, Lazze.9870 said:

For the sake of variety in terms of elite spec mechanics and role diversity, it needs a completely petless spec at some point.

Putting aside questions of whether that's practical (engineer lost its core profession mechanic altogether with mechanist, so maybe a kind of reverse mechanist would be?), that's more of a "not what you wanted" issue than an "outright bad" issue. I think it is fair to say that having a playstyle that enhances the pet is also a valid one. Now that's out of the proverbial way.

 

4 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Why does the Unplayed have cantrips, why not Augments or Virtues which are related to heavy classes. Why so many things, really why. 

I don't think the actual effects of the cantrips are that out of line of some of the things you can get out of guardian and revenant utilities, if heavy is what you're looking at for inspiration. You've got a teleport (guardian and rev both have that), a condi clear that doubles as a stunbreak, an effect that essentially mimics dragonhunter longbow 5, an elite that makes you tougher, and an area damage skill that can also double as a CC. Don't really see how any of these don't fit with a heavier playstyle.

Thematically, Untamed is closely linked to nature spirits, so the skills being manifestations of natural magic makes sense. Essentially like a guardian that uses Green instead of White/Blue, or a revenant channelling Urgoz.

[mistsim.2748]

Untamed zerg build yikes. Someone gonna tell him?

[Baseleader.4128]

I had a similar experience as you OP. I heard so much bad things about Untamed and then I tried it in open world, playing through the EoD expansion and.... holy moly I loved it. In open world it is so freaking fun and strong, overall im happy with it. It's also good in PvP which seemed at the core of its design. The fact that it's not very good in Instanced content isnt an issue for me, i have SLB and Druid for it. It's poor performance in WvW is a shame though, hoped it would be the go-to ranger spec there.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

22 minutes ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

I had a similar experience as you OP. I heard so much bad things about Untamed and then I tried it in open world, playing through the EoD expansion and.... holy moly I loved it. In open world it is so freaking fun and strong, overall im happy with it. It's also good in PvP which seemed at the core of its design. The fact that it's not very good in Instanced content isnt an issue for me, i have SLB and Druid for it. It's poor performance in WvW is a shame though, hoped it would be the go-to ranger spec there.

The issue is that Untamed isn't good in high end PvP. Its a niche pick and was a niche pick even with drake tail swipe. Now it's gone down the drain because the one good thing about it is basically gone.

[draxynnic.3719]

19 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

The issue is that Untamed isn't good in high end PvP. Its a niche pick and was a niche pick even with drake tail swipe. Now it's gone down the drain because the one good thing about it is basically gone.

Honestly, that's the issue I have whenever the "it's okay for a specialisation to be intended for one game mode" line gets thrown out. First, because if a specialisation designed for PvP actually performs better than the specialisations that aren't designed for PvP, it'll inevitably get nerfed. Second, with skill splits, there's no reason why untamed in PvE can't have its damage coefficients buffed until it does have a competitive raid build. 

That doesn't mean it's badly designed, though. It just means that its ability to do damage has been undertuned. Aside from not making it into raid builds, untamed is the most fun I've had with ranger since throwing traps at people was removed.

The main complaints against it are "we wanted no pet ranger" (valid, but people who wanted something that focused on the pet after two elite specialisations that reduced the pet's importance are also valid) and the aforementioned raid damage, which is a balance issue. Neither are design issues. Just look at willbender, which went from "this looks OP" to everybody's punching bag in the betas to "no this is actually awesome and possibly OP" on release. Pretty much all through numbers changes - the fundamentals of how willbender is designed haven't changed since that first announcement video.

Edited June 17, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The main complaints against it are "we wanted no pet ranger" (valid, but people who wanted something that focused on the pet after two elite specialisations that reduced the pet's importance are also valid) and the aforementioned raid damage, which is a balance issue. Neither are design issues. Just look at willbender, which went from "this looks OP" to everybody's punching bag in the betas to "no this is actually awesome and possibly OP" on release. Pretty much all through numbers changes - the fundamentals of how willbender is designed haven't changed since that first announcement video.

My main issue with the design is that it's a 'pet-centered spec' with very little to give the pet something new to do. 'Striking together?' We could do that already! Now it's more micromanagement for more often than not the same or worse result. 

 

Honestly I feel like it'd be a lot better if pets got 50% of the mech treatment- the first minor trait gives 25% of all your stats to the pet, then there's some traits that give an additional 50% of specific stats. If the mech is allowed to be this OP, why not make the 'pet-centric' ranger spec also make the pet good? Their AI is bad, there's very few ranged pets, the few ranged pets there are range from mediocre (bristleback) to downright terrible (siege turtle, devourers), the melee ones can't keep up to a moving target, and alacrity and/or quickness don't function on some of them! I know for a fact cats don't have alac function right- their F2s don't cool down at the speed the timer does when they have alac (the written timer goes down, but the F2 isn't off CD with the timer).