Specific complaints about Dismount mechanics, PvE volume, and gate mechanics

[Gehenna.3625]

On 6/15/2022 at 11:06 PM, mziven.2095 said:

- Dismount mechanics in WvW are awful. Unless I've put 166 lvls into the warclaw I have no reliable means of removing a player from their mount.

Fair comment. It does take an enormous amount of points.

On 6/15/2022 at 11:06 PM, mziven.2095 said:

I cannot dictate an engagement with another player.

Ehm, nor should you be able to dictate it. The other player should have something to say about this as well. Some professions have means of getting the frak away without you being able to do anything about it just the same. Without a mount.

On 6/15/2022 at 11:06 PM, mziven.2095 said:

Best case scenario, they dismount and let me fight them. More often, they slowly move towards friendly players or NPCs, or in the most frustrating instances, they stand perfectly still and let me waste cooldowns on their mount before dismounting at the last possible moment and  engaging me with a 30 sec cooldown advantage... This is unacceptable in my opinion. I should be able to play this game mode, which is required for legendary crafting, without having to rely on a blob for content.

Well, I roam a lot solo and I do fine. I often lose 1v1 engagements even but occasionally I win them...just the same I still manage to get things done. And even I have to laugh at you wasting cooldowns on their mount when they're standing still. I never do that myself. You have to know when to stop yourself. Now, I do join blobs or run along with them if they happen to be near me, but I just as easily abandon them to cap supply camps or do scouting.

On 6/15/2022 at 11:06 PM, mziven.2095 said:

-PvE volume and structure gate mechanics  also promote exceptionally frustrating gameplay.  Because there is a large volume of guards on the exterior of compounds, and because the gates allow unrestricted access to friendly players in combat, there is a tendency for solo players and small groups to only take fights in close proximity to friendly structures. These engagements tend to play out like so. Start a fight, drag enemy toward guards, if things are still going badly run back into compound. Rinse and repeat.  Killing the guards in such instances is also fairly pointless because of how quickly they respawn.

You know, I think part of WvW is to know when to attack and when to stop attacking. You seem to just want to engage enemies and disallow them to get away entirely, no matter what. So don't attack solo players near a keep, if that's your concern. You have to think more tactically. As you said you want to "dictate" the engagement, but that's not realistic. I will say that guards respawn more quickly at keeps and SMC and maybe too fast, but I think those are meant for bigger engagements, aka blobs. 

On 6/15/2022 at 11:06 PM, mziven.2095 said:

This is unenjoyable for a number of reasons. Quite succinctly, its a bunch of BS. If a player is in combat they should not be able to use the gate. This would be consistent with waypoint mechanics, and mount mechanics.  If they're going to take the fight it should not be without risk.  Barring that, the density of exterior guards, and speed with which they respawn needs to be adjusted. Personally I think it makes sense to relocate exterior guards to the inside of the structure and add five minutes to the respawn timer but that's just me.

Yeah I think you'll find that makes WvW a lot unfriendlier for people who aren't as good at PvP. And I think the point of WvW is to mix PvP with PvE so more people can enjoy it.

On 6/15/2022 at 11:06 PM, mziven.2095 said:

I believe the focus of this game mode should be more skewed toward dynamic player vs player interactions with minimal PvE interaction. 

Yeah, that's what you want but WvW should not be more like PvP imo because then it effectively will ostracize a good number of players from WvW. I certainly would hesitate playing WvW anymore. And you may not care about that but I think Anet does care about how many players and which players play WvW. Besides, a solution I might think of is that I will only play with a blob from then on. And I might not be the only one to decide that. Then you'll quickly run out of roamers/solo players to engage.

I get the mount thing, there are way to many points you need to put in that to be able to dismount another player, but as for WvW being as it is, with PvE elements I have to disagree with you.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[kash.9213]

5 minutes ago, mziven.2095 said:

I've described a problem, offered evidence, and suggested alternatives that would have little to no impact on the overall gameplay but make the mode more equitable for solo players. You have not managed to offer a defense of those mechanics or a coherent objection to my argument other than to ascribe value judgements to myself or the player base.  There may be good counter arguments that an experienced WvW player could offer. If you can not provide such arguments than you should consider reevaluating your position on this subject.   

No, you entirely and selfishly dismissed all other players and my explanation why your changes aren't needed. Namely because they'd be only your changes. Dress up your post all you want with colorful words and attempted levity but you know you're deflecting when not only I but others in this thread already answered you in detail. You don't like the answers because you want the game tailored towards your schedule and play time so you can get your legendary you mentioned and bounce. You can pout all you want but WvW players aren't trying to coddle you so you can get back to pve. 

[mziven.2095]

4 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

No, you entirely and selfishly dismissed all other players and my explanation why your changes aren't needed. Namely because they'd be only your changes.

You have again failed to make any argument about the subject matter... For fun lets awesome that everything you've said about my personal characteristics is correct. I'm selfish, dishonest, inexperienced... Now that that is out of the way can you make a cogent argument supporting or objecting to the mechanics that I've described that doesn't involve me personally?  

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, mziven.2095 said:

You have again failed to make any argument about the subject matter... For fun lets awesome that everything you've said about my personal characteristics is correct. I'm selfish, dishonest, inexperienced... Now that that is out of the way can you make a cogent argument supporting or objecting to the mechanics that I've described that doesn't involve me personally?  

You're showing what you're all about by ignoring my first post. You're argument was weak out of the gate but people still responded seriously and you keep deflecting. No one was trying to get personal with you. You got butt hurt because you were either proven wrong or you didn't like the answer.

[Dawdler.8521]

9 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Fair comment. It does take an enormous amount of points.

Its still not quite true though. There are several classes and builds that can reliably dismount players. Necro is one of them, having a 1200 range one click condi button with blood is power, for example. 

I also do it consistently on my engineer with blowtorch, albeit at less range (poison darts also works but the channel is a little obvious). Stupid mounted people often run by to taunt you thinking they are safe, lol. Hell its even better sometimes than dismounting them with warclaw because I can time a CC when they get knocked off (like toolkit pull) which means they burn even more without cleansing it

Catching the dude might be troublesome sometimes but thats about it. 

Power ranger is another obvious example that shouldnt have any problems dismounting. Especially not considering they can literally kill you before you hit the ground in the dismount sequence.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[mziven.2095]

18 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

You got butt hurt because you were either proven wrong or you didn't like the answer.

 

You have again failed to make any argument about the subject matter... For fun lets awesome that everything you've said about my personal characteristics is correct. I'm selfish, dishonest, inexperienced, and now butt hurt... Now that that is out of the way can you make a cogent argument supporting or objecting to the mechanics that I've described that doesn't involve me personally?  

[mziven.2095]

11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Its still not quite true though. There are several classes and builds that can reliably dismount players. Necro is one of them, having a 1200 range one click condi button with blood is power, for example. 

 

Work arounds exist, but that doesn't address the underlying complaint or justify the time and energy required to gain access to a mechanic that doesn't require a player to play a certain class, or certain build. Again, putting 166 lvls into warclaw to gain access to the spear skill requires more time and energy than the obtaining Conflux. 

[Dawdler.8521]

57 minutes ago, mziven.2095 said:

 

Work arounds exist, but that doesn't address the underlying complaint or justify the time and energy required to gain access to a mechanic that doesn't require a player to play a certain class, or certain build. Again, putting 166 lvls into warclaw to gain access to the spear skill requires more time and energy than the obtaining Conflux. 

Then dont do it. Nobody is forcing you to dismount anyone. There will be plenty of other enemies. If you cant be arsed to rank up to play WvW more effectivly, I dont understand why you would be arsed to beat whoever you want to dismount.

How many levels do one get per hour while zerging nowadays anyway, when low level? 

[mziven.2095]

9 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Then dont do it. Nobody is forcing you to dismount anyone. There will be plenty of other enemies. If you cant be arsed to rank up to play WvW more effectivly, I dont understand why you would be arsed to beat whoever you want to dismount.

How many levels do one get per hour while zerging nowadays anyway, when low level? 

 

This comment doesn't in anyway inform the conversation. Can you make an argument in support of the extraordinary effort required to access this mechanic  that doesn't involve my personal characteristics. For comparison, It would be arguably faster and less energy intensive to unlock ever other mount in the game, including the skyscale, and take them to max level, than it would be unlock this one skill for the warclaw.  

[Dawdler.8521]

4 minutes ago, mziven.2095 said:

 

This comment doesn't in anyway inform the conversation. Can you make an argument in support of the extraordinary effort required to access this mechanic  that doesn't involve my personal characteristics. For comparison, It would be arguably faster and less energy intensive to unlock ever other mount in the game, including the skyscale, and take them to max level, than it would be unlock this one skill for the warclaw.  

We cant "inform" anything when your eyes and ears are covered. 

Again, with what urgency do you need to dismount a player?

[mziven.2095]

6 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

We cant "inform" anything when your eyes and ears are covered. 

Again, with what urgency do you need to dismount a player?

 

You have again failed to make a cogent argument about the subject matter. My complaints about the dismount mechanics are described in length in the original post. I will listen to you if you make an argument that addresses the validity of my complaint instead of me personally. 

[Sahne.6950]

On 6/18/2022 at 10:06 PM, mziven.2095 said:

 

You have again failed to make a cogent argument about the subject matter. My complaints about the dismount mechanics are described in length in the original post. I will listen to you if you make an argument that addresses the validity of my complaint instead of me personally. 

Hey mziven. I feel everything that youve said, from the frustration of not being able to dismount. Over the frustration of people using gates during combat, yada yada. BUT yours and my view are highly biased from our "MONKEY IS ROAMER! MONKE BETTER THAN ZERGLINGS AND GOES SMAASH" googles. In every sentence i can smell how proud you are of the performance with your "main" Harbinger. And that everything you wanna do i have some good fights.

The sad reality. This is NOT about the powerfantasy of certain people. You yourself are abusing something which most people find frustrating and unfair. I am speaking about Harbinger. If you would ask the people that your were chasing what is more frustrating, being able to use gates or Celestial harbinger... im sure you already know the answer.

You demand things like " being unable to use gates while in combat", which might sound like a good idea for what you are trying to do in WvW (farming people with a clearly overpowered profession, without a second of selfshame; but dont worry, i myself am abusing Cele like theres no tomorrow 😄), but if we are looking at what this gamemode is orignally designed for.... your suggestion suddenly is S+Tier nonsense.

just imagine that your Keep is under attack. You want to get into the keep so you can help, but there is a thief almost permastealth infront of the keep. Hitting everyone with a shortbow and then lingering around in stealth keeping everyone in combat and therefore preventing them to enter the keep. You all can not enter the keep because there is a kitten permastealth thief tagging you and preventing everyone from entering. Its just dumb.

 

The Thing with the warclaw... i can only agree. Avoiding fights nowadays is to easy. Altho almost every class has a way to reliably dismount someone, even Garbinger. Personally i think that any form of Damage should dismount instantly, but without the knockdown that currently happens when you get dismounted.

i remember the good times, where builds actually had to have mobility to get around the map and fights were more common cuz of that.... ohhh and having permaswiftness was considered good mobility back then.... GOOD TIMES.💖

Edited June 20, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[mziven.2095]

12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

BUT yours and my view are highly biased from our "MONKEY IS ROAMER! MONKE BETTER THAN ZERGLINGS AND GOES SMAASH"

 

Yes my view is biased, that's why I began my post by providing the context on the perspective I'm giving so that would be clear. 

 

12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The sad reality. This is NOT about the powerfantasy of certain people. You yourself are abusing something which most people find frustrating and unfair. I am speaking about Harbinger. If you would ask the people that your were chasing what is more frustrating, being able to use gates or Celestial harbinger... im sure you already know the answer.

You demand things like " being unable to use gates while in combat", which might sound like a good idea for what you are trying to do in WvW (farming people with a clearly overpowered profession, without a second of selfshame; but dont worry, i myself am abusing Cele like theres no tomorrow 😄), but if we are looking at what this gamemode is orignally designed for.... your suggestion suddenly is S+Tier nonsense.

 

These entire two paragraphs are speculating on my character, speculating on why I play harbinger, and speculating about my gameplay. This is not a conversation about me personally and this is not a cogent argument. The reason I have made of point of chastising people do this is because personal attacks cause people to because defensive, are generally irrelevant to the subject matter, and would require some intimate knowledge of me.  Presumably, if you disagree with me about mechanic you know why and should be able to explain so.   

 

12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

just imagine that your Keep is under attack. You want to get into the keep so you can help, but there is a thief almost permastealth infront of the keep. Hitting everyone with a shortbow and then lingering around in stealth keeping everyone in combat and therefore preventing them to enter the keep

 

This is the first genuine argument that has been made to defend that particular mechanic by anyone in this thread I believe. Bravo! However, I'm not sure if the potential for abuse is a particular strong argument against implementing such a mechanic as It is an variation of a slippery sloop argument, which assumes one event necessarily follows from another. And to be clear, I like the Idea of defenders having to defend a compound from the ramparts or by sallying out in force but at great personal risk. I also like the idea of  cutting off potential reinforcements by strategically positioning your main attacking force, or by small groups or solo players as this would give them something more to do. That being said, the potential for abuse it or course present, but I'm not sure if it would be much more impactful than the theifs that harass keeps to prevent the use of the way-point. A nuisance for sure, but a comparatively small one.   

 

[Sahne.6950]

6 hours ago, mziven.2095 said:

 

Yes my view is biased, that's why I began my post by providing the context on the perspective I'm giving so that would be clear. 

 

 

These entire two paragraphs are speculating on my character, speculating on why I play harbinger, and speculating about my gameplay. This is not a conversation about me personally and this is not a cogent argument. The reason I have made of point of chastising people do this is because personal attacks cause people to because defensive, are generally irrelevant to the subject matter, and would require some intimate knowledge of me.  Presumably, if you disagree with me about mechanic you know why and should be able to explain so.   

 

 

This is the first genuine argument that has been made to defend that particular mechanic by anyone in this thread I believe. Bravo! However, I'm not sure if the potential for abuse is a particular strong argument against implementing such a mechanic as It is an variation of a slippery sloop argument, which assumes one event necessarily follows from another. And to be clear, I like the Idea of defenders having to defend a compound from the ramparts or by sallying out in force but at great personal risk. I also like the idea of  cutting off potential reinforcements by strategically positioning your main attacking force, or by small groups or solo players as this would give them something more to do. That being said, the potential for abuse it or course present, but I'm not sure if it would be much more impactful than the theifs that harass keeps to prevent the use of the way-point. A nuisance for sure, but a comparatively small one.   

 

sorry bud didnt want to come around the corner being rude! I myself am a proud "Cele-Harbinger-Enjoyer" so everything ive said also 100% applys to me. 😃

 

[mziven.2095]

12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

sorry bud didnt want to come around the corner being rude! I myself am a proud "Cele-Harbinger-Enjoyer" so everything ive said also 100% applys to me. 😃

 

Oh you're good dude. I play viper harbinger, I didn't know Cele was a thing until I made this post. I have 1500 hrs into this game all as necro and only begrudgingly played other classes when I was working on getting Ascension. The only reason I play harbinger specialization is because I spent 30$ on the expansion and I want to use a pistol. Haha! I'm a simple man. 

[Strider Pj.2193]

16 minutes ago, mziven.2095 said:

 

Oh you're good dude. I play viper harbinger, I didn't know Cele was a thing until I made this post. I have 1500 hrs into this game all as necro and only begrudgingly played other classes when I was working on getting Ascension. The only reason I play harbinger specialization is because I spent 30$ on the expansion and I want to use a pistol. Haha! I'm a simple man. 

The WvW mount is not likely to see many changes…. Mainly because the more risky it makes it for people to return to their Zerg, the less likely it is for it to change more….  And yes, you are not alone in your frustration.

 

As a suggestion…. Since you play vipers, I would really suggest a condi bomb…. The dodge mechanic makes it so even if you have a spear, you are still likely to miss, so in the absence of that, I have seen people use a condi bomb which continues to tick as they run, dismounting them relatively quickly.  
 

It’s not perfect.  But given how there has been significant needs to the mount within the first 6 months of its release, I don’t see them hitting it again.

 

Though….  Changing the order of which skill you get at each iteration of the Warclaw, and maybe tweaking the levels isn’t a bad idea.  Just don’t think they will any time soon…. 

[mziven.2095]

1 hour ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

 

Though….  Changing the order of which skill you get at each iteration of the Warclaw, and maybe tweaking the levels isn’t a bad idea.  Just don’t think they will any time soon…. 

Yeah, like switching sniff with spear. Not that Sniff does anything worthy of grinding 166 lvls, but would also be a completely reasonable thing to do and a step in the right direction.