For the benefit of players and the game, at least half of the boons and conditions need to be removed from game itself.

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Sorry just a bit of misspeak. I was referring to unique personal effects, the thing that got rubbed out in favor of boons. Point being that unique personal effects could remain unique and powerful if they were strippable and had tradeoffs. Boons which are strippable, could also keep their ability to be perma'd, they just need dynamic tradeoffs.

 

The ability to strip is itself a tradeoff, but I'm talking more of in the vein of Frenzy...in which the effect has a dynamic price to pay to it instated by the user of the effect, and not one that relies on an outside force like an enemy player or NPC that has to bring a strip in order to ground that skills effect to reality. 

Although I would still prefer that boons/buffs be short term, but meaningful, effects that must be timed tactically for greatest impact,  I can see how your approach would work better than what we have now, by far.

[fenriswolfman.5486]

Dervish was built around setting up and breaking enchants when it was most effective.

[Astralporing.1957]

11 hours ago, fenriswolfman.5486 said:

Dervish was built around setting up and breaking enchants when it was most effective.

Which is not saying much. Dervish design was likely at or near last place among all the GW1 classes, and remained there with great consistency throughout all its reworks.

[vandrefalk.6823]

Rather than simplify and dumb down so the combat system becomes very simplistic and menial, how about the balance team just educate themselves on their own game mechanics and sort it out with upcoming patches.

 

They have a design philosophy document in the works, let's see what their thoughts are, and how they will proceed to improve the work on balancing moving forward.

We've been in a quite decent spot since EoD released, and just suffered a dodgy update, but I have every belief Anet can get back on the horse and adjust things for the next balance update and bring warrior, etc. back in the mix.

 

Maybe this one-dimensional DPS dealer with banners needed to die this death in order to rise again with new purpose later.

[Dante.1508]

Conditions... Kill them all wipe them out.

[Gehenna.3625]

16 hours ago, Arewn.2368 said:

The playstyle of consistently applying buffs is appreciable and should stay.

Funny because that playstyle is what keeps me from raiding in this game. It's just tedious and boring in my view.

16 hours ago, Arewn.2368 said:

But this can be achieved through might and fury. Alacrity and quickness becoming a part of the meta was a mistake, one that I don't think arena net even intended. They just rolled with what the player base was making. They should remove alacrity and quickness as boons entirely.

Reintroduced them sparingly as short during, never shareable, unique buffs.

This would of course need to be followed by an across the board update to skill speed and cooldowns of all skills.

 

Alacrity and quickness, especially in combination,  significantly modify the pace of combat. This is not the type of effect that should be maintained with 100% uptime. For experienced players whi become accustomed tonhaving them, the game feels sluggish and bad in situations where they arent maitained  (e.g. solo play).

For new players who spend the majority of their play time without these buffs, it causes an unnecessary steepening of the learning curve. They learn the game, get accustomed to the timings and muscle memory while leveling and doing the story or open world events. Then When they enter end-game group play the pacing changes and everything feels frantic and fast. This is actually one of the sources of the accessibility issue for content like raids/strikes.

 

If they are expected to be maintained at 100% uptime then it's just a new baseline anyways. So get rid of them as boons and utilize them as personal short term effects.

You don't need them to be shareable as a group cool down for burst windows. You already have the exposed mechanic.

You don't need them as consistently applied buffs for a 'buffer' play-style. You already have might and fury.

You don't need them to attain the desired pace of combat. You can just balance skills that way in the first place.

 

Removing alacrity and quickness would also lower the far-too-large potential performance gap between experience and new players/groups.

It also makes players less dependant on staying 'on stack', which would be nice.

The current  implementation of alacrity and quickness is an active detriment to the game's balance with no notable advantages.

 

Boons that can have 100% uptime become superfluous as it becomes standard procedure, but that is what makes them especially appreciable, but not appreciated imo.

I suppose the one advantage is that Anet has an easier time balancing the boss fights because they can assume 100% uptime of boons as the standard, irrespective of group composition. Players will choose the "right" group composition. Perhaps this is why more and more professions get to do more and more of the boons. And because of that they had to reduce the DPS across the board because what you need 4 people for in the past you can do it with 2 now (I'm just guessing here), which leaves more people in a group to focus on DPS ergo the DPS had to go down and that's what explains this nerf of damage across the board.

I mean that might be the idea behind it. Dunno. But it's created a situation where boons are just superfluous now to have to upkeep. Not superfluous in the sense that you don't need them, but because it's become the standard now. Might as well take em away and reduce the boss' hp and perhaps focus on things that make combat more interesting.

 

[Labjax.2465]

24 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Funny because that playstyle is what keeps me from raiding in this game. It's just tedious and boring in my view.

Boons that can have 100% uptime become superfluous as it becomes standard procedure, but that is what makes them especially appreciable, but not appreciated imo.

I suppose the one advantage is that Anet has an easier time balancing the boss fights because they can assume 100% uptime of boons as the standard, irrespective of group composition. Players will choose the "right" group composition. Perhaps this is why more and more professions get to do more and more of the boons. And because of that they had to reduce the DPS across the board because what you need 4 people for in the past you can do it with 2 now (I'm just guessing here), which leaves more people in a group to focus on DPS ergo the DPS had to go down and that's what explains this nerf of damage across the board.

I mean that might be the idea behind it. Dunno. But it's created a situation where boons are just superfluous now to have to upkeep. Not superfluous in the sense that you don't need them, but because it's become the standard now. Might as well take em away and reduce the boss' hp and perhaps focus on things that make combat more interesting.

 

I don't feel qualified to say much about boons, but I do think that axing them is too much of a "killing the fundamental identity of the game" thing. I will say though, I think making them essential for a fight and then following that through to "every class gets 100% uptime spec for them" isn't much better. They appear to be most interesting in concept as something situational, rather than required, as something that can be brought with one class or another for one boon or another, but is a tradeoff gain for losing other things and vice-versa, rather than being a binary "if you have it, we'll do better, if you don't, we are going to struggle."

Edited June 30, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[fenriswolfman.5486]

Which I think was the intent but lasted about 5 minutes once players got hold of it. Going all the way back to four axe warriors and a boonbot mesmer.

Edited June 30, 2022 by fenriswolfman.5486

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

Maybe this one-dimensional DPS dealer with banners needed to die this death in order to rise again with new purpose later.

I have enough of years of Anet's approach of "let's nerf it down, and then we'll start thinking about buffing it up again, but better. Somewhere in the far-off future. Maybe... if we won't forget.

So, this time i'd really preferred them to first start buffing, and only then nerf to compensate.

[Arewn.2368]

7 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Funny because that playstyle is what keeps me from raiding in this game. It's just tedious and boring in my view.

Boons that can have 100% uptime become superfluous as it becomes standard procedure, but that is what makes them especially appreciable, but not appreciated imo.

I suppose the one advantage is that Anet has an easier time balancing the boss fights because they can assume 100% uptime of boons as the standard, irrespective of group composition. Players will choose the "right" group composition. Perhaps this is why more and more professions get to do more and more of the boons. And because of that they had to reduce the DPS across the board because what you need 4 people for in the past you can do it with 2 now (I'm just guessing here), which leaves more people in a group to focus on DPS ergo the DPS had to go down and that's what explains this nerf of damage across the board.

I mean that might be the idea behind it. Dunno. But it's created a situation where boons are just superfluous now to have to upkeep. Not superfluous in the sense that you don't need them, but because it's become the standard now. Might as well take em away and reduce the boss' hp and perhaps focus on things that make combat more interesting.

 

It's fine if it is not desireable to you. There's 6 dps slots in a group you can fill instead.

Other people enjoy it though, so there is value having it in the game.

While 100% uptime can make things superfluous, it can also have other functions. In this case it enables consistent value for a "buffer" role/playstyle.

Might and fury are ideal candidates for this because they are universally valuable, but don't fundamentally modify gameplay or the pace of combat (as alacrity and quickness do).

Furthermore they aren't needed as a "timed" buff. The concept of a burst window is already mechanically accounted for by Defiance and the exposed debuff. So might and fury do not need to be reserved for this function. Even if you did want another buff for this purpose, quickness or alacrity could be reintroduced to fulfill this function.

On the other hand, they do need to be careful to ensure buffs such as protection, resistance, and superspeed cannot be maintained with 100% uptime. These should be utilized as a form of "group cooldown" that is applied with precise timing to deal with specific situations.

Like you said, if something is expected to be "on" all the time, it can become superfluous. It just sets a new baseline and stops having value as a game mechanic.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Arewn.2368

[Gehenna.3625]

7 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I don't feel qualified to say much about boons, but I do think that axing them is too much of a "killing the fundamental identity of the game" thing. I will say though, I think making them essential for a fight and then following that through to "every class gets 100% uptime spec for them" isn't much better. They appear to be most interesting in concept as something situational, rather than required, as something that can be brought with one class or another for one boon or another, but is a tradeoff gain for losing other things and vice-versa, rather than being a binary "if you have it, we'll do better, if you don't, we are going to struggle."

Well, taking them away is one option, but the other is reducing them significantly so that you need to decide when to use them rather than upkeeping them all the time. Also boon sharing should be reduced significantly (imo). Just cause it makes things more interesting, again imo.

But to have them 100% of the time just makes it a chore. Some people might like that, but for me it's just tedious. 

1 hour ago, Arewn.2368 said:

It's fine if it is not desireable to you. There's 6 dps slots in a group you can fill instead.

It's also fine that it works for you. But also straight DPS can be boring. The problem I have is that I've played support roles like healers in other games and I loved doing that. I was never one for DPSing much in group content. So I have to either play a role in group content that's not so close to my heart or play support in a way that makes it boring for me.

1 hour ago, Arewn.2368 said:

Other people enjoy it though, so there is value having it in the game.

That goes both ways. Other people don't care for it, so it has less value having it.

1 hour ago, Arewn.2368 said:

While 100% uptime can make things superfluous, it can also have other functions. In this case it enables consistent value for a "buffer" role/playstyle.

Which is a playstyle that I don't like and the only other alternative is DPS because you only have buffers and dps. Even a healer has to upkeep certain boons. So meh. 

1 hour ago, Arewn.2368 said:

Might and fury are ideal candidates for this because they are universally valuable, but don't fundamentally modify gameplay or the pace of combat (as alacrity and quickness do).

well alacrity and quickness essentially speed things up, but might and fury just make your dps higher all the time. So with 100% uptime on each of those, you're doing a lot of effort to achieve the same thing as not having them. By reducing their durations, you actually have to think about when to use them. All 4 of them basically improve damage in the end. I mean upkeeping 4 buffs to hit a dps target? Really?

1 hour ago, Arewn.2368 said:

Furthermore they aren't needed as a "timed" buff. The concept of a burst window is already mechanically accounted for by Defiance and the exposed debuff. So might and fury do not need to be reserved for this function. Even if you did want another buff for this purpose, quickness or alacrity could be reintroduced to fulfill this function.

I agree with your idea with alacrity and quickness and that probably would be the better boons for that. I just think that might and fury should be personal buffs and not shared (or maybe a couple of skill that share it, but only from time to time) and also not for 100% of the time. Personally I think there should be a hard cap on crit to begin with.

1 hour ago, Arewn.2368 said:

On the other hand, they do need to be careful to ensure buffs such as protection, resistance, and superspeed cannot be maintained with 100% uptime. These should be utilized as a form of "group cooldown" that is applied with precise timing to deal with specific situations.

Like you said, if something is expected to be "on" all the time, it can become superfluous. It just sets a new baseline and stops having value as a game mechanic.

And mind you, I'm not against boons themselves but I am not a fan of all boons all of the time. They should be used sparingly to make a difference during the fight in the sense of making the combat more dynamic. The road they travelled will just make things worse and worse. Also, classes and specs will just start being the same more and more, cause that's what it starts to feel like.

 

TLDR; I am not a fan of all boons all of the time and it's starting to feel like classes/elite specs are becoming more and more alike because of the boon system.

[Arewn.2368]

5 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, taking them away is one option, but the other is reducing them significantly so that you need to decide when to use them rather than upkeeping them all the time. Also boon sharing should be reduced significantly (imo). Just cause it makes things more interesting, again imo.

But to have them 100% of the time just makes it a chore. Some people might like that, but for me it's just tedious. 

It's also fine that it works for you. But also straight DPS can be boring. The problem I have is that I've played support roles like healers in other games and I loved doing that. I was never one for DPSing much in group content. So I have to either play a role in group content that's not so close to my heart or play support in a way that makes it boring for me.

That goes both ways. Other people don't care for it, so it has less value having it.

Which is a playstyle that I don't like and the only other alternative is DPS because you only have buffers and dps. Even a healer has to upkeep certain boons. So meh. 

well alacrity and quickness essentially speed things up, but might and fury just make your dps higher all the time. So with 100% uptime on each of those, you're doing a lot of effort to achieve the same thing as not having them. By reducing their durations, you actually have to think about when to use them. All 4 of them basically improve damage in the end. I mean upkeeping 4 buffs to hit a dps target? Really?

I agree with your idea with alacrity and quickness and that probably would be the better boons for that. I just think that might and fury should be personal buffs and not shared (or maybe a couple of skill that share it, but only from time to time) and also not for 100% of the time. Personally I think there should be a hard cap on crit to begin with.

And mind you, I'm not against boons themselves but I am not a fan of all boons all of the time. They should be used sparingly to make a difference during the fight in the sense of making the combat more dynamic. The road they travelled will just make things worse and worse. Also, classes and specs will just start being the same more and more, cause that's what it starts to feel like.

 

TLDR; I am not a fan of all boons all of the time and it's starting to feel like classes/elite specs are becoming more and more alike because of the boon system.

It's a shame the game doesn't cater to the particular role or playstyle you most enjoy.

I main tank whenever it is available in games, and that role is even more dead than support is in gw2. So I feel you there.

A game can only cater to so many things though.

 

Like I said, I already agree there's too many boons and that they should move away from 100% uptime. 

My suggestion was to entirely remove two of the boons. And of the many remaining boons, only 2 should be treated as 100% uptime/maintenance boons, with specific reasoning on why.

All other boons would be used on an as-needed basis instead of maintained at all times.

I didn't explicitly state it, but in my mind this would also revitalize the healer role.

A party would have a 3x damage dealers, 1x boon support/buffer, and 1x true healer.

And as they currently do, all roles would have the ability to bring and contribute utility such as reflect, portals, SS, etc