I do less damage using skills than autoattacking

[coro.3176]

Literally, on my condi/hybrid holo build, swapping kits, managing heat and endurance, and pressing lots of buttons, I do way worse dps than just speccing rifle mechanist, pressing 1, and walking away from the computer.

 

It's kind of insulting.

[Tails.9372]

Sounds like a build issue then, rifle AA spam (what was it? somewhere around 23k with all buffs active on golem) is nowhere near at what a proper rotation can get you (around 40k iirc.).

[coro.3176]

29 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Sounds like a build issue then, rifle AA spam (what was it? somewhere around 23k with all buffs active on golem) is nowhere near at what a proper rotation can get you (around 40k iirc.).

I mean, yes. It is a build issue. The issue is that I want to use traits like Vent Exhaust in my build, but even with condi stats, max duration, etc. It is still a dps loss compared to just pressing 1 and walking away from the computer while my autoattack and mech do all the work.

Build issue? Design issue? yes.

[Ashadow.6874]

 

Quote

I mean, yes. It is a build issue. The issue is that I want to use traits like Vent Exhaust in my build, but even with condi stats, max duration, etc. It is still a dps loss compared to just pressing 1 and walking away from the computer while my autoattack and mech do all the work.

Build issue? Design issue? yes.

 

Uh, no.  Auto attacking with Rifle does not do more DPS than actually using a proper setup on Engineer.  You are definitely not playing your Engineer right if you think that is the case.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Ashadow.6874

[Nomad.4301]

To me the rifle's Auto-Attack seems to have the same bug that Thief pistol had a few patches ago where it had no "after-cast" (basically a small invisible CD Read https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aftercast_delay)

This was a bug that got fixed after probably less than a week. Right now you can see the attack animation clipping itself it's so fast, I believe the intended speed is probably half of what it is now.

[Tails.9372]

42 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

To me the rifle's Auto-Attack seems to have the same bug that Thief pistol had a few patches ago where it had no "after-cast"

That's because you're either not paying close enough attention or are overlooking the fact that it's a multi hit attack now. If it really had no aftercast then it would loop a lot more "uninterrupted" (like the Harbinger SAA).

I'd say its mostly because of the standard engi rifle projectile animation but the projectile animations of the "The Predator" rifle skin make it more apparent where "the line" between the individual skills is.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Tails.9372

[XenMaster.7165]

• Hip Shot has been replaced with Rifle Burst. Rifle Burst delivers a quick burst of fire that pierces targets, followed by an explosive grenade. Total damage coefficient increased from 0.65 to 1.0 in PvE only.

 

So it literally shoot multiple shots per click before the explosive grenade? How many bullets though? (Also im at work now) can someone showcase it. Not the golem, atleast in Open World World Boss or something)

[Tails.9372]

9 minutes ago, XenMaster.7165 said:

So it literally shoot multiple shots per click before the explosive grenade?

Yes, it actually is supposed to be a "two round burst + grenade" per skill.

10 minutes ago, XenMaster.7165 said:

How many bullets though?

2

18 minutes ago, XenMaster.7165 said:

can someone showcase it. Not the golem, atleast in Open World World Boss or something

Here, as you can see there are the two glowing projectiles from the weapon followed by a small grey line (the grenade).

[Nomad.4301]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

That's because you're either not paying close enough attention or are overlooking the fact that it's a multi hit attack now. If it really had no aftercast then it would loop a lot more "uninterrupted" (like the Harbinger SAA).

Hmm, not so sure about that, look at Three-Round Burst, that also fires 3 projectiles and even with quickness it's still not as fast as just rapidly pressing 1 on rifle Autos with no boons.

[Tails.9372]

19 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

Hmm, not so sure about that, look at Three-Round Burst, that also fires 3 projectiles and even with quickness it's still not as fast as just rapidly pressing 1 on rifle Autos with no boons.

Well yeah, ofc it's not that fast as the execution time TRB alone is 33% longer than RB but if we assume that the time for "RB + aftercast = TRB without aftercast" then it actually matches rather well with what we can see in praxis.

Also, at least for a Mechanist, the rifle AA doesn't even make up for that much of their overall damage composition even if all the player does is spamming Rifle Burst.

 

[Nomad.4301]

11 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Well yeah, ofc it's not that fast as the execution time TRB alone is 33% longer than RB

its 25% longer, and even with quickness its still not as fast (quickness makes it .5 sec cast, AA is .75).

[Tails.9372]

18 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

its 25% longer

0,75 * 1,25 = 0,9375

0,75 * (1 + (1 / 3)) = 1

21 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

quickness makes it .5 sec cast

Quickness makes skills execute 1,5 times as fast, not 2 times.

[Koensol.5860]

9 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

I mean, yes. It is a build issue. The issue is that I want to use traits like Vent Exhaust in my build, but even with condi stats, max duration, etc. It is still a dps loss compared to just pressing 1 and walking away from the computer while my autoattack and mech do all the work.

Build issue? Design issue? yes.

Bruh. Vent exhaust isn't meant to be used as a way to do high dps. It's literally just an additional small offensive bonus added to a defensive mechanic (dodge) which btw also heals you.

[Mell.4873]

Although a proper rotation can get you high dps i will agree that in general most engi weapons have much better auto attacks that all their other weapon skill, I mean take flamethrower for example. In general I find the weapons skills are the true utilities and the toolbar is your weapon skills since they often add more damage to your rotation (highly subjective to your build)

[pbalint.1607]

Remember: it's not the rifle that's op, it's mechanist!

(I've done dps checks with rifle autos only both pre- and post patch:
rifle dps at melee range: 1930 -> 2500

rifle dps at max range: 2350 -> 3000.

sword does 4.7k )

 

post-patch, rifle, close: https://imgbox.com/1lESEdfg

post-patch, rifle, far: https://imgbox.com/gR9YVMiC
pre-patch, rifle, close: https://imgbox.com/elYUV0kt
pre-patch, rifle, far: https://imgbox.com/mJmk0Rxl
pre-patch, sword: https://imgbox.com/kjKsjzOo

#nerfmechnotcore

Edited June 29, 2022 by pbalint.1607

[Tails.9372]

16 minutes ago, pbalint.1607 said:

it's not the rifle that's op

The problem is that people generally don't seem to understand nuance so ofc. they don't realize that the thing they try to complain about has no validity to it.

I wouldn't even call mechanist OP, at least not the "24k AA" thing that seems to be the "rage of the hour" as there are already more than enough examples of other builds reaching 30k just by AA spam and even stuff like unload spam still has better dps.

Just looking at the bigger picture makes it apparent how much of a non issue the AA change really is.

[Passerbye.6291]

As hilarious as rifle 1 animation looks and feels, can we stop losing our kitten (I wrote this one and am proud of it) about 24k auto attack damage, especially while mace already does more with auto attack only and actually comes with better weapon skills. You can literally setup a standard power damage build with mace + pistol, set the golem to the standard 10 conditions (not 13 as it overinflates the numbers and is unrealistic), get yourself might fury, quick and alac, at this point, all you need are food and utility. Press 4-3-2 off of cooldown as well as spam mech skills to do over 30k damage without actually needing any stat infusions.

Edit: Before I forget, the range attack trait on mech still barely does any higher damage than the might generation one due to the lower damage per hit and the speed bonus not sufficiently compensating it especially with the lack of a final combo hit with higher damage that the melee version has. The melee version also has a lower cooldown and a faster cast speed on the command skill so overall does more damage and provides more self quick uptime.
Note: unless you use aim assisted robot, which makes range trait good

Edited June 29, 2022 by Passerbye.6291

[Fwog.9387]

I did 27k with just mortar kit and mech autos

[Kodama.6453]

13 minutes ago, Jaricko.6143 said:

I did 27k with just mortar kit and mech autos

People get confused because of rifle auto's fast attackspeed. Somehow they all think suddenly that all the damage comes from the rifle, when the mech is actually responsible for the big majority of damage dealt.

The entire rifle auto cycle (2 shots + 1 grenade) scales with a 1.0 power coefficient. It is good, yes, but it is not as broken as everyone makes it out to be.

But all people see is "it attacks fast, so it must be broken".

Edited June 29, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[LunieL.1738]

26 minutes ago, Jaricko.6143 said:

I did 27k with just mortar kit and mech autos

Do the same without mech 😄

Actually, you won't go much higher using all rifle skills. As condi mechanist with double pistols and no kits I do 30k pressing few buttons with no hurry and 24k using AA, mech 2 and signet on superconducting.

And there are tonns of LI builds for major amount of classes that do same or higher dps.

 

Speaking about rifle damage - it still need improvements in order to compete with condi mechanist. And other power builds which do significantly higher dmg. 

But for sure, for solo game and low tear fractals it works nicely while anyone does more than 4k dps and you do from 10 to 20k with your own boons. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by LunieL.1738

[Fwog.9387]

I just mentioned it to point out, the weapon doesn't really matter for the broken low intensity combo. As long as your using the right traits and gear, your damage will be silly on any weapon. 

That was at max range too, i wasn't getting the 15% crit from firearms. I was mostly just curious if it was feasible to max range on the new power build and still do over 25k dps and yes you can. 

Update - doing a dps check with golem set to passive, i still do around 14 - 15k dps with just mortar 1

Edited June 29, 2022 by Jaricko.6143
Additional input

[Passerbye.6291]

With the right setup, using mace, I do over 30k damage just autoing and using F1-2-3 off of cooldown, just saying, rifle is kitten in comparison, objectively does less damage.

[LunieL.1738]

1 minute ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

With the right setup, using mace, I do over 30k damage just autoing and using F1-2-3 off of cooldown, just saying, rifle is kitten in comparison, objectively does less damage.

But feels much more satisfying which is very important to me, and I assume to a lot of people, we are here to play games, right? The reason why I didn't play rifle mech is that animations, sound and general feeling was awful.

[Passerbye.6291]

7 minutes ago, LunieL.1738 said:

But feels much more satisfying which is very important to me, and I assume to a lot of people, we are here to play games, right? The reason why I didn't play rifle mech is that animations, sound and general feeling was awful.

I mean you are free to do that ofc, but if we are talking, which we are as I see 24k thrown around quite frequently since yesterday, it is far from optimal. 

[LunieL.1738]

1 minute ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

9 minutes ago, LunieL.1738 said:

 

I mean you are free to do that ofc, but if we are talking, which we are as I see 24k thrown around quite frequently since yesterday, it is far from optimal. 

Sure it is. And for hard content I will be still using condi mechanist with grenades / flamethrower (depends on the mood :D)

But for open world, t1-t3 fractals, bosses etc it's an awesome update. The funny thing is that there is no that high difference with full boons and with only those you provide to yourself, but the ceiling is also quite low. It's nice for solo play and content with randoms but still doesn't work for hard group content. That's a shame but the first steps are finally done, before the patch rifle was useless.